On 4/28/2020 at 11:04 AM, mistborn82 said:

We really know next to nothing about the AOL except a very, very few major events.

True. But I think the general vibe was it was pretty much a utopia. Weather control made the seasons predictable, with little or no natural disasters; Chora trees everywhere spread peace and contentment (opiate for the masses?); and pretty much everyone's needs were met.

Lucky lady.

On 4/27/2020 at 11:01 PM, Jsbrads2 said:

If you recall Gaul first arriving in Westwood by the Waygate. Gaul thought the few short decrepit trees growing out of the dry stony soil was what a forest would look like before arriving in the wetlands.

There was no location in the Aiel waste where even a decrepit tree could grow. 

But then doesn't this defeat your theory that the Aiel were all about preserving trees and growing things? Even if it were only the Chora trees they cared about, I'd imagine they'd make some considerable sacrifices to keep one alive... if they were as important as you claim. The fact that there are so many Aiel (hundreds of thousands, if not over a million) living in the Waste, that's a whole lot of water going just to sustain them, even at bare minimum amounts. If their population were cut in half, the "extra" water could be used to maintain one Chora tree per clan. And if Jordan wanted to get a bit grittier, he could have had Wise Ones use the Power to extract moisture from dead bodies (after all, he already stole the idea for the Aiel from Dune... why not some core concepts of the Fremen too?).

For each piece of evidence that supports your theory, I can find two that don't.

On 4/26/2020 at 2:41 PM, mistborn82 said:

The Binders were used on channeling criminals in the Age of Legends and have nothing to do with the Rods of Dominion. My guess is the rods were like imperial scepters given to continental governors since there was a world government.

This makes sense.

As an aside, the "Rods of Dominion" sounds quite ominous. I'm fairly certain "dominion" is meant to refer to the extent of one's governance (i.e., lines on a map), but it kinda sounds like the Age of Legends was a dystopian dictatorship, with whoever holds a Rod commanding obeisance from the plebs.

Ohh, the power of words... 

17 hours ago, Jsbrads2 said:

Why is the way of the leaf called that?

Because that's the name Jordan chose. ? But seriously, the society of the Age of Legends was quite alien to anything we see in the books (reminiscent of the late Renaissance) or even our own contempary, modern society. The Way of the Leaf seems like some type of psuedo-spiritual philosophy meant to tie its adherents to a common goal (much like how Suiane described the Three Oaths).

The only real glimpse we get of AoL Aiel is during the growth-song (I forget the actual name used), where they are growing vegetables. It seems to me that the Aiel were akin to farmers. After all, someone needs to provide the food to sustain a global population. In the real world, starvation is the norm outside of first-world countries. The AoL is depicted as a "first-world planet," which means food-production is a MAJOR factor.

Aiel means "dedicated" ... what exactly were they dedicated to? Unless there is an answer in context, anything you or I would say is pure conjecture. You say they were dedicated to the Chora trees, I say they were dedicated to sustaining the populous... the WotL promotes empathy, which is a valuable trait to have if your purpose is to provide for people. And the cultlike mentality of the WotL ensues a shared, focused goal amongst all Aiel.

Again, this is just my speculation based on the information from the text. I'm not claiming I'm right, but the evidence supports this theory just as much as any other.

Quote

 

Why did the Aiel prioritize trees when fleeing falling society? Then prioritize the trees over their own people. The tree was so sacred, and then the Aiel punish Laman’s Sin.

 

What evidence is there that the Chora trees were more important than the artifacts of Power? I asked you to provide quotes for this claim. Otherwise, you're just shouting into the wind.

My interpretation is that the Aiel were simply asked to safeguard a variety of items so that civilization can be more easily rebuilt once the War ended. After all, Sammael finds glowglobes in a stasis box... that's the modern-day equivalent of locking a lamp in a vault. You only do that so you won't need to buy/built another lamp. The people intended to simply resume their lives exactly how they left them before the War started. They didn't expect the Breaking to occur.

Preserving the WotL would have been more important than the items simply because the items could be replaced, but empathy would be needed to renew hope that things will get better; that things will return to normal.

As for Laman's Sin, the gift of the tree was a symbol of the friendship between the two tribes. But there's some important context missing, namely, what the oath was when the gift was given. Killing Laman was pretty excessive, and that supports your claim that the Chora trees hold more significance to the Aiel than we're led to presume, but the precise nature of the oath could also explain why a death-sentence was warranted.

The hole in your theory, however, is that if the Chora trees were as important as you claim, why haven't the Aiel planted more? Let's say, one for each clan? Or more! Each time a new Clan Chief is chosen, he could return with a cutting, to plant in his hold.

The mysticism surrounding Avendesora more likely stems from the fact that so few Aiel actually get to see it. When the barrier around Rhuidean falls, and the city is made open to the public, the near-destruction of Avendesora is no more than a passing comment. If Jordan had intended for the tree to be so important, wouldn't he have dedicated some more time to showing the dispair and lamentation of the Aiel? I mean, RJ was not afraid to bloviate and needlessly detail events of his story; all indications show that the tree had much less significance than you are claiming it had.

The Oath Rod in the White Tower was said to be engraved with the number "3", which some believed represented the Three Oaths. But the rod that Samael gives to Sevanna was engraved with, IIRC, an "11."

(Or was it "111"? Something else entirely??)

At any rate, it was higher than nine. Not sure what that suggests, but it seems to rule out Sevanna's rod being one of the nine.

@Jsbrads2  You're going to need to provide some quotes to support those claims.

On 4/23/2020 at 10:32 PM, Jsbrads2 said:

What evidence do you have that the first Tinkers too trees with them? They emptied the wagons of Terangreal and trees before riding off. 

Inferred from Rand's ancestral memory. There was mention of numerous caravans lined up, each laden with artifacts and each with several Chora saplings strapped to the sides. This was all well before the schism.

We know the WotL forbids violence, and we know no Chora trees survived except for Avendesora, so we can infer that the Tinker-Aiel:

a) never found a place to plant them, and/or b) abandoned them.

By contrast, the wasteland-Aiel had abandoned the WotL, which presumably allowed them to defend the caravans long enough to reach Rhuidean. The Jenn are very likely the few wasteland-Aiel who never took up the veil; hence, the name. Still, it's not entirely known how far the Jenn deviated from their roots, so I question the validity of the term "True Aiel."

It is curious how the Jenn are always spoken of in present tense though: The Jenn live in Rhuidean, etc. This makes me think the Clan Chiefs are actually referring to the memories revealed in the glass ter'angreal. Memories are timeless; the event is in the past, but a memory is forever current.

Okay, but now you need to provide examples of where the "All is well" phrase deserves to be used, or where "cloudberries" need to be mentioned. Otherwise, these fall perfectly in line with an open-ended use. Just because the books no longer have examples of the terms, it does not mean they no longer exist, or are no longer being said... it's just that there is no reason to mention them explicitly.

The narrative can still allude to the phrase, though, even without using it. For example, if a sentence was: In the midst of the panic, she assured them everthing was going to be fine, the reader uses their own head-canon for what is actually said, and the world-building allows for the "All is well" phrase to be inserted.

"Jenn" literally means True, so the Jenn Aiel, by definition, are the only "True" (or real) Aiel. However, this is a term that was applied to them later, by a people already perverted from their roots, so I would NOT use it as any conclusive proof one way or another. It does seem to suggest that the Wasteland Aiel acknowledge that they are not "true" Aiel, which defaults your question to the Tinkers being the "real" Aiel.

Regardless, let's explore some more...

If Rand's flashback memories serve any merit, then the Tinkers are closer to what the Aiel were in the AoL. They still adhere to the Way of the Leaf and seek the ancient Treesongs they used to know. The modern-day Aiel are the ones who were originally called the Lost Ones, and were required to veil their faces out of shame. The veiling became adopted into a cultural more, while the term Lost Ones was inverted and projected back at the Tinkers (likely out of spite for being cast out... i.e., "I'm rubber, you're glue").

It was only by luck (or perhaps the will of the Pattern) that the only surviving Chora tree happened to make it's way to Rhuidean. The Tuatha'an caravans had several saplings, but since they never found a safe place settle, the trees withered and died. Can't entirely blame them for that; they were still obeying their orders from the AS right up until the bitter end. Clinging to non-violence (The Way of the Leaf) proved to be their detriment, as they abandoned caravans and Ter'angreal to the numerous brigands and desparate survivors. The Aiel adapted to their harsh new world, and were able to defend their caravans and charges.

The order to transport and safeguard the Ter'angreal was the last task the AoL Aiel were given, but it's not who they were. Culturally, the wasteland Aiel bare almost no resemblance to their namesake aside from a few legacy terms (i.e., cadin'sor, etc). By contrast, the Tinkers are much more similar to the Aiel seen in Rand's vision, dancing and singing in the crop fields.

Is the point of this thread to find examples of things Jordan mentions in one book, but not in others? Because if so, you could have made that more clear in the OP. Otherwise it just looks like you're griping about things and then flippantly dismissing any rationale that's offered.

As I said in my previous post, there's a ton of things that only get mentioned once: sword forms; towns; citizens, book titles. It seems boring and tedious to try compiling an exhaustive list.

^^^this

Yep! The whole Berelain /Faile thing felt like RJ was just being indulgent. It could have been resolved within one book, but dragged on and on and just got tiresome.

Is this just a thread to share art? Discuss techniques? What's the "signup" for? Help!

The phrase could be a mistake, or it could be Jordan hinting that the two cultures at one time shared roots.

A quick word-search for cloudberries came back with two results. The first, Perrin accuses Rand of "picking cloudberries" when he pits himself between the Tower AS and the Salidar AS. The second appearance is in Ebou Dar, where Birgitte offers Nyneave some mint & cloudberry tea. There may be more examples, but I didn't care enough to delve deeper.

I'm not really sure what point you are trying to make bringing this up... seems like cloudberries are just some type of fruit. ::shrug:: I think "strawberries" is meantioned only once or twice as well. And aspargus (or perhaps brocoli) is described, but never named, as a strange new vegetable foreign to the Two Rivers. These types of "throwaway" comments are peppered all throughout the novels. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

How are you quantifying their rank amongst fighters? "Top 2%" is an oddly specific conclusion.

Besides, I think I would disagree. There isn't much evidence that ALL Fades are exquisite fighters. We've seen them killed fairly easily by a number of characters. I think it's the Fade's other abilities that make them formidable to the uninitiated. Their fear gaze can cripple even the stoutest warrior, making them perform under their potential. And Fades are fast and wiry, which can surprise someone accustomed to fighting only other humans.

The fact that Nyneave was present when those events occurred is what we call "coincidence." All those events were well on their way to happening anyway.

The Aiel had been over the Dragonwall for months, before finally arriving in Tear (likely pulled in by Rand's presence).

Tanchico was being manipulated by both Moghedian and the Seanchan before Nyn even stepped foot in the city.

Samara was a powderkeg under the oppressive hand of the Prophet.

And Ebou Dar was only the next step for the Seanchan after Toman Head, Arad Doman, Tarabon, and Amadicia.

Everything would have happened more-or-less the same way if Nyneave wasn't there.

What do you mean "beginning of the Hunt for the Horn?"

Did you mean the novel, The Great Hunt?

Because she didn't say it in The Great Hunt, she said it in The Dragon Reborn, when she was with Perrin, Rand, and all the Sheinarians who saw Mat blow the horn... so yeah, I'm betting she was privy to what happened. Especially since the book begins a couple months after the events at Falme, so the reader should infer that some discussion and conversation occurred.

9 hours ago, Sabio said:

Wasn't Ghealdan one of the nations where the leader barely had control over a portion of the country?  If so the county would not of been capable of such a trial.  

Murandy and Altara are described that way, but not Ghealdan. The reader's first real look at Ghealdan is after it has been ravaged by the Prophet and it's rulers systematically murdered until they capitulate. The "broken" Ghealdan we see probably shouldn't be conflated with the country that existed prior to The Dragon Reborn.

Aside from the Aes Sedai's deathgrip on anything male channeler-related, the stigma and fear surrounding male channelers would likely make anyone want to distance themselves from such a person. Ghealdan (the rulers and constituents alike) would probably be glad to see Logain taken away.

Back to the topic...

What I would tell Rafe, if given the chance, would be:

1) leave modern socio-political retoric out of the show. The vast majority of people don't espouse the type of ideology being pushed in many TV shows, movies, comic books, and video games, and the feeling of being "preached at" is the one and only cause these ventures fail.

I placed this at number 1 because it is THE most important piece of advice I can give. Jordan went into excruciating detail to describe what certain people from certain places looked like. All you need to do, Rafe, is give us an accurate depiction; there is more than enough "diversity" in the books already without trying to force it. Likewise, Jordan's portrayal of females is quite empowered, but they are also deeply flawed as well. Allow them to fail. It's humanizing.

2) Show, don't tell. As I said in a previous post, one of the major factors between a good story and a poor one is the use of exposition. When characters need to relay information to the audience, do it in an organic way, with believable dialog. Not in a hamfisted way.

The phrase "a picture is worth a thousand words" is one I think many modern show writers have never heard. Don't fall into that trap. Jordan had a lot of banal dialog in his books (and it's one of my major criticisms of the novels), but it's more forgivable with a written medium. With visuals, you can present so much more in the span of a few seconds than RJ did with an entire page. Having characters emote and react to each without a single word is far more poignant than some of the tripe back-and-forth dialog Jordan used. In short, trim the fat.

3) Subtlety with the visuals. Don't try to be a Marvel movie. I think the One Power would be much better depicted through suggestion, rather than overt CGI. Only if a scene is meant to been seen from a channeler's perspective, or if showing the weave is pertinent to the narrative, should it be shown. Focus on the story and the interactions being characters. "Trying to please everyone, you'll please no one."

On 4/10/2020 at 9:26 AM, Elendir said:

I did not see anybody use acronyms in such way here, as you two expected from me.

You need to read think in context and do not see Mat everywhere.

I do not know what the meaning of MC = Mat would make in this sentence:

 

However that still doesn't prevent you from quickly pointing out who's to blame.

I think you are lying when you say you cannot see how "MC" can be confused with Mat Cauthon, as it makes PERFECT SENSE within the context of removing characters from a story arc. Stop making excuses for yourself and own up to your mistake. 

The main character of the book before the third book is the main character of the second book (or or the first book, but I thought the second). If for you the MC from the book before the third book was Mat. So you wrote about Mat from the second book. “context”

This is such a dishonest argument to make. On so many levels! First, you KNOW that I read "MC" as Mat Cauthon, NOT "main character" so it's entirely disingenuous for you to frame this response as me thinking Mat was a main character of any of the books.

Second, I definitely WAS talking about Mat from Book 3 because YOU said, "Third book will again connected with 'disappearing' of MC from book..." You don't get to alter reality.

I've patiently explained how your post was confusing, but instead of saying, "whoops sorry," you have been nothing short of obstinate and deflectionary. Pathetic!

What precisely do you want to know?

9 hours ago, Elendir said:

Mat

 

What Mat where? Mat is "zombie" during second book. He is hardly MC="Main Character" of the second book. When I wrote about second book, I wrote about Rand.

 

So "MC" meant "main character," not "Mat Cauthon." Well, that explains why you thought I was putting words in your mouth, but the confusion was entirely your fault. When you're talking about removing characters from a story arc and you use an abbreviation, the natural tendency is for the reader to assume you're referring to a character. When I first mentioned Mat, it was incumbent upon you to find the source of that confusion and correct it, not accuse me of acting in bad faith.

Regardless, I stand by my opinion.

I'd rather have the series show Moiraine researching Balefire, instead of her expositing that information later. This has nothing to do with who is the lead character, it has to do with good story-telling, and what works on the page doesn't always work on the screen.

P.S. - And I was talking about Mat's role in the third book, not the second book. Who's putting words in whose mouth now? ?

7 hours ago, Elendir said:

 

Read my contribution first please, and do not put there words, which are not there.

That's so condescending.

You said (emphasis mine):

I think, first book can be Morain centred very well. We can get introduced of Emonds 5 as she do.

Then she will vanish completely at second book, and Rand will take most of time.

Third book will be again connected with “disappearing” of MC from book before and Perin or super girl can follow in same pattern.

Where exactly am I putting in words? You clearly said to remove Moiraine from the second book and remove Mat from the third. I disagreed, and gave extensive reasons for why I disagreed. So again, where exactly am I misrepresenting your words?

9 hours ago, Denver Steve said:

Point taken ?

its just that there’s no examples of people healing from a distance. Dahmer Flin does it by hovering his hand over people, but no one heals from distances.

 

Well, I think maintaining a close proximity is necessary so the channeler can actually see what their weaves are doing, but physical contact is not needed. As you say, Flinn hovers his hands over Rand... and he talks, which he said makes it easier for some reason (again, his own "learned" behavior). ?

If I recall correctly, Nyneave also doesn't touch Logain when she Heals his severing; she just stares at him across the table. I might be wrong on that, though, not sure.