I was reading the thread asking if there are any Aiel among the HotH and it sparked a question.

 

Has there been any Heroes of the Horn born outside of Randland? Has there ever been a Hero born in Seanchan, Shara, the Aiel Waste, or the Island of Madmen?

 

I don't want this to devolve into a conversation on who among current characters are Heros, so characters present in the books do not count.

None that we know of. That was sort of my point. You'd think an Aiel garbbed in cadinsor and the rest would have stood out. Or someone garbed as a Seanchen soldier. There are only just over a hundred heros. Doesn't mean they weren't represented - RJ may have just overlooked it or any other explanation. Just found it odd.

how do wise ones defend themselves that cant channel?

they run. in aiel society, they're not messed with

Also, I have heard discussion in a lot of threads about AS releasing Warders from their bonds.

A lot of people ask why Rand didn't just make Alanna do this.

I have read through the entire series multiple times and don't actually remember anyone ever saying warders can be released from their bonds.

I remember multiple times that transferring the bond from one AS to another was mentioned.

Can anyone find a direct quote referring to an AS being able to release her Warder without transferring the bond to someone else?

Moraine tells lan she will not release him from the bond.

Well, she asks him once. That's when she first tells him if she dies he'll be compelled to another AS. Later, in the waste, she thinks about Nynaeve and her influence on Lan and say she won't give him up (all this in her thoughts) until she dies. But, her thoughts make it sound as if she wants Lan to end up with Nynaeve then.

And I'll toss this in here from another thread, since it belongs here more:

@ Sutt; Concerning the BT, how long have they been around? (Talking about your RJ experimenting with the bond knowing more than AS quote). They've gotten a lot of new weaves for only being around for a year or so (or are my numbers off in my head)

 

Yeah around a year is correct I believe. We know the bonding weave they expermineted on widely per RJ. In addition there method of training would seem to have a much higher casualty rate but also lead to more discoveries. Then there is also Taim and his special classes. Who knows how many attack weaves and what not came straight from the Forsaken.

 

Thanks sir.

 

It just seems like it points out how much more the WT really sucks. Those men can discover soooooo much just be experimenting in a year's time. Kinda crazy! I'd kill for a good chapter about the BT and it's inner workings. They can't just know battle weaves (Aside from healing). I mean they're building stuff too.

 

That would be accurate in describing WT-bound AS "loyalists." The rebel Aes Sedai on the other hand have a very impressive list of discoveries, mainly thanks to Nynaeve, Elayne, Egwene, and Moghedien. So, discoveries in healing, masking the power, making cuendillar, Traveling, making ter'angreal, etc ... are AS rediscoveries.

Yeah, remember a lot of this has to do with the wheel. So, humanity has been in a descent. That means they'll lose knowledge and power. If they win now, my guess is that they start ascending again.

There are certain things about Fain that kinda bother me. If he's at all powerful enough to take on the DO, I'm kinda bothered by that.

I get what you're saying. It's also interesting that you're the judge of what is right or wrong (you being the woman who has taken the oaths). And, I guess it's true - Moiraine switched Rand's back with the power in book 4 or 5 in the Waste (i think 5). But, since I believe RJ himself said it was akin to rape, I have a problem with her being able to do it.

I wonder if RJ has said anything about it. You don't need to light somebody on fire with the power if you can control their mind. Seems like a weapon to me.

One of the oaths an Aes Sedai takes is to not use the OP as a weapon unless in defense or against the shadow. If bonding as Alanna did is akin to psychic rape, didn't she violate that oath?

 

Basically, not a weapon. It didn't hurt him.

Great example of dancing around the oaths.

 

It didn't physically hurt him, so she was allowed to do it. Good stuff.

Compulsion doesn't physically hurt either but it would seem to violate the oaths.

One of the oaths an Aes Sedai takes is to not use the OP as a weapon unless in defense or against the shadow. If bonding as Alanna did is akin to psychic rape, didn't she violate that oath?

We might as well look at the paragraph:

Alanna drew a deep breath, and a moment passed before she replied. "I am not sure Cadsuane cares two pins about you," she snapped. "I keep that oath as well as I can, but you do make keeping it hard." Her voice began to harden, and anger welled more strongly through the bond. "I owe fealty to a man who walks off and leaves me behind. Just how am I supposed to serve you? More importantly, what did you do?" Crossing the carpet, she stood staring up at him, fury burning in her eyes. He topped her by more than a foot, and she seemed not to notice. "You did something, I know. I was unconscious for three days! What did you do?"

"I decided if I was going to be bonded, it might as well be by someone I said could." He barely caught her hand before it landed on his face. "I've been slapped enough for one day."

She glared up at him, teeth bared as if ready to bite out his throat. The bond carried only fury and outrage, now, distilled to daggers. "You let someone else bond you?" she snarled. "How dare you! Whoever she is, I'll see her before a court! I'll see her birched! You are mine!"

"Because you took me, Alanna," he said coldly.

I don't think there's anything unclear about her not knowing what it was Rand did. See the emotional reaction to learning the particulars, for example.

 

EDIT:

Ah! Thank you, Suttree. How do you know that? I don't remember seeing that in the book.

No, that's not from the books, though in WH we see another example of Fain's talents with similar effects. RJ once mentioned it in one of his book-signings.

Thanks. I thought I had missed something. ;)

I have a question:

 

In the Hunt for the Horn, Rand walks into the house and the whole "Blink...blink...blink" thing happens where he see the family who lived there get attacked by Fain's Trollocs and ends up covered in flies. How'd the blink thing happen when he wasn't by a portal stone?

 

It was a "time trap" set up by Fain.

Ah! Thank you, Suttree. How do you know that? I don't remember seeing that in the book.

I have a question:

In the Hunt for the Horn, Rand walks into the house and the whole "Blink...blink...blink" thing happens where he see the family who lived there get attacked by Fain's Trollocs and ends up covered in flies. How'd the blink thing happen when he wasn't by a portal stone?

I see, thanks. The just seemed so assured about The Return I thought there was something I missed.

 

The only issue with Rand kneeling would be that it might undermine his authority as commander in chief at TG. But then I don't know, perhaps if he wont take part in the actual battle(s) he wont need to be in charge necessarily. I wonder what the implications would be for the Randland armies. Would they be subjected to the Seanchan and Tuon, or would they simply remain distinct charges, under different commands?

I think you're right. I don't think the Randlandiers will necessarily follow Rand throughout the entire battle. And, even if they did, there's so many of them there has to be different commanders ordering this group or that group. Rand's battle is with the DO and all or some of the remaining forsaken. That's what I think.

I don't think they'll be subject to the Seanchan. I think, at the least, the Seanchan will promise not to war with the other nations until the Final Battle is over. It could be more than that, what do I know? We're all just guessing. But, I think there are too many people, and still many not sworn to the Dragon, for Rand to speak for all.

Now, that Rand's all Christy and all, I wouldn't be surprised if he bends knee to the Crystal Throne just to make peace and gather the flock for the last battle. We don't know what the Seanchan will be made to give in return, do we?

It makes sense as he has done all he can throughout most of the series not to be anyone's puppet. He's grown beyond that and doesn't give a crap as long as he can save the world.

Anybody know what the explanation is for Verin being able to touch the ogier who had his soul stripped away by the machin shain in book 2 while she was in a stedding and know that he was empty?

 

 

Ryan R.

 

This actually has no spoilers and is not in and of itself very interesting but since I have heard people speculating about Verin's using a Well back in The Great Hunt to "Delve" that Ogier, I'll mention it.

Robert Jordan

 

I asked Jordan if you need to channel to detect loss of soul, and he said no, it was obvious from touch. So Verin doesn't have a Well, or at least didn't use it.

Many thanks, Suttree.

They can act by wrapping up the enemy in air, they don't have to kill to be effective. Suian demonstrates this with Nynaeve and Egwene on the way to Tar Valon from Fal Dara.

A true follower of the way of the leaf will not raise a hand to defend even themselves. So, no bearhugs which seems the same to me as enveloping an enemy in air. At best a Tinker would put up a shield or something of that nature.

Anybody know what the explanation is for Verin being able to touch the ogier who had his soul stripped away by the machin shain in book 2 while she was in a stedding and know that he was empty?

I hear what you're all saying but if you're an Aes Sedai and, Tinker or not, and some people are attacked by darkfriends, you have to act.

How do you fight the shadow without giving up the way of the leaf? I'm guessing an Aes Sedai would be required to roast trollocs and fades if they came upon them and there was the need to protect others. Even if an Aes Sedai who was a Tinker attempted to follow the Way, I'm guessing they'd have to give it up eventually. They'd also have to follow orders from their superiors and, while the story never really brings us there, I'm guessing there might be ways to break the Way without physical violence - in other words, manipulating people into having to enact in physical violence.

He was generally evasive. He did say that the confusion was intentional.

Thanks for that. My one question would be then, why would he have to come to terms with LTT if the voice was only part of his insanity? Other people are obviously reborn in the series and don't suffer the same way, other people go insane from touching saidan and don't suffer the same way. But, either way, you did make me think of this part of the storyline differently. Even though I know/knew Rand was LTT reborn I still thought of them as two distinct people. Anyway, good discussion.

Whether you're right or not, thank you. It's obvious you put some thought into this and have done a good job, imo.

Do you know what Robert Jordan had to say on the subject?

Oh I agree that Mat is much more deeply connected to Manetheren and the Red Eagle than Perrin is. Mat is after all either Aemon reborn or a direct bloodline descendant of his.

 

That still doesn't change the fact that Mat has had very little to do with the Red Eagle or Manetheren yet that, IMO, has been worthy of Min's vision.

 

Perrin hasn't really either. He's been involved with the Two Rivers. Yes, they are descendants of those who lived in Manetheren, but they hardly know anything about it. Mat remembers.

 

It's not however the only early vision that seems a little off though. The vision of Lan, a babe with a sword in its cradle. At least that has an easier possible explanation in that it could be Lan's son?

 

I believe it represents the oath Lan took as a baby. He has accepted the part about fighting the Shadow all his life, but he's refused to lead his people as their king. One might say he fulfilled it when he led the charge at Tarwin's Gap because that's the first time in his life that he really and truly accepted his role.

I had the same problem rereading this time. Since the Red Eagle has been unfurled by Perrin's men, I couldn't understand why the eagle wasn't seen around him by min. Aemon's bloodline/Aemon reborn does make sense, though.

This is what I mean about semantics and distinctions. You're reading way too much into Semirhage's usage of the word 'real'.

 

I'm not actually 'reading' anything into it. I'm literally just saying... Lady of Pain said the voice was real.

 

Yes, but you said that her statement means that the voice was not just a taint-induced delusion. That's reading something into it, obviously. I choose to interpret her statement as referring to the fact that the memories are real, because otherwise it makes no sense. She also said he was only hearing the voice because he is insane, which contradicts the assertion that the voice is 'real' in the realer sense.

 

the voice knew things. I think it was more than a delusion.

 

Rand knew things, thanks to the memories. The voice was Rand's delusion, so it knew what Rand knew, and no more. Lews Therin's memories came directly to Rand far more often than they came from the voice; the voice tended to express the memories that Rand wasn't comfortable with, like anything having to do with Ilyena. It also expressed other thoughts Rand wasn't comfortable with, thoughts that had nothing to do with Lews Therin at all, though Rand often interpreted it that way. His mistrust for Taim and Aes Sedai, for example. Rand interpreted those thoughts as the paranoid thoughts of a madman, and so they were expressed through the 'voice', because in Rand's mind, the Kinslayer was a madman. Nevermind that he was only a madman for a few days at most, at the end of a life lasting 400 years. Sometimes Rand would have a thought and assign it to Lews Therin after the fact. Sometimes he wasn't sure where the thought had come from. At least once, he was sure it came from neither of them. (Moridin)

Considering that LTT and Rand are the same person, I can see what you're saying but the LTT personality was the one telling him.

 

No, Lews Therin's memories were informing Rand. This rarely happened via the 'voice'. The memories and the voice are not the same thing.

Interesting theory. Seriously. But, he's been hearing the voice for more than a few days. And, if LTT's memories are informing Rand, wouldn't his voice and mannerisms be part of those memories?

This is what I mean about semantics and distinctions. You're reading way too much into Semirhage's usage of the word 'real'.

 

I'm not actually 'reading' anything into it. I'm literally just saying... Lady of Pain said the voice was real.

 

Yes, but you said that her statement means that the voice was not just a taint-induced delusion. That's reading something into it, obviously. I choose to interpret her statement as referring to the fact that the memories are real, because otherwise it makes no sense. She also said he was only hearing the voice because he is insane, which contradicts the assertion that the voice is 'real' in the realer sense.

 

the voice knew things. I think it was more than a delusion.

 

Rand knew things, thanks to the memories. The voice was Rand's delusion, so it knew what Rand knew, and no more. Lews Therin's memories came directly to Rand far more often than they came from the voice; the voice tended to express the memories that Rand wasn't comfortable with, like anything having to do with Ilyena. It also expressed other thoughts Rand wasn't comfortable with, thoughts that had nothing to do with Lews Therin at all, though Rand often interpreted it that way. His mistrust for Taim and Aes Sedai, for example. Rand interpreted those thoughts as the paranoid thoughts of a madman, and so they were expressed through the 'voice', because in Rand's mind, the Kinslayer was a madman. Nevermind that he was only a madman for a few days at most, at the end of a life lasting 400 years. Sometimes Rand would have a thought and assign it to Lews Therin after the fact. Sometimes he wasn't sure where the thought had come from. At least once, he was sure it came from neither of them. (Moridin)

Considering that LTT and Rand are the same person, I can see what you're saying but the LTT personality was the one telling him. The Rand from the 2rivers didn't know many of the things the LTT personality knew.

This is what I mean about semantics and distinctions. You're reading way too much into Semirhage's usage of the word 'real'.

 

I'm not actually 'reading' anything into it. I'm literally just saying... Lady of Pain said the voice was real.

 

Yes, but you said that her statement means that the voice was not just a taint-induced delusion. That's reading something into it, obviously. I choose to interpret her statement as referring to the fact that the memories are real, because otherwise it makes no sense. She also said he was only hearing the voice because he is insane, which contradicts the assertion that the voice is 'real' in the realer sense.

 

the voice knew things. I think it was more than a delusion.

 

Yes because the memories were real.

I'm with you.