The

So, he being trapped in another dimension breaks the bond (or whatever happens when an AS dies)? There's really no other explanation for it that I can see.

I think this is correct. It's seems the doorways are a connection between Rand Land and Finn Land. When the Rhuidean doorway melts, the connection is lost, and Lan's bond is broken.

 

As for Lan failing to go into a death rage, I believe that has more to do with the fact that his bond was transferred to Myrelle. He probably would have gone to Death Rage mode, except for the Myrelle transfer.

he kinda did anyways, he went into insane sword practice form

 

Sorry, I don't remember this. To what are you referring?

I believe he's talking about when Egwene finds Myrelle and others hiding Lan among the Rebels. He does super fast sword forms and even the other Warders are impressed.

Personally, I was under the impression that Lan was messed up in the head as soon as Moiraine was lost on the other side of the doorframe. In fact, if Moiraine had not transferred his bond to Myrelle, he'd probably be dead by now.

So, he being trapped in another dimension breaks the bond (or whatever happens when an AS dies)? There's really no other explanation for it that I can see.

Lan felt Moiraine die when she entered the Rhuidean doorframe ter'angreal at the end of the battle at the docks. Why didn't he feel her die when she entered the Tear doorframe ter'angreal? Or did that happen off screen?

It's a really good question. He didn't with the first doorframe, why would he with the second one when she clearly didn't die???????

 

Probably because the doorframe was destroyed.

Do you mean he could no longer feel her? Warders go into the rage because their AS die. She didn't die so.... etc, etc.

Lan felt Moiraine die when she entered the Rhuidean doorframe ter'angreal at the end of the battle at the docks. Why didn't he feel her die when she entered the Tear doorframe ter'angreal? Or did that happen off screen?

It's a really good question. He didn't with the first doorframe, why would he with the second one when she clearly didn't die???????

Ogier Question: The Book of Translation takes them back to Ogiertron. So, if they open it up, does that mean the Seanchan ogier get their asses sent back to Mars, too?

From the discussions that Lan has with Moiraine before entering the Stone and after, it would seem they have some idea. However, from the way Myrelle handles Lan when he comes to her (arriving after Moiraine's falling through the doorway terangreal), it would seem that when they do compel they try to do it with a soft touch so that the Warders don't realize it. Of course, that may have just been because he was on the edge.

 

Thanks a lot thisguy, you helped a lot. It lead me to this, whaich for some reason slipped my mind.

 

Moraine:

For the hundredth time - or so it seemed to her - she considered the words to use. "Before we left Tar Valon I made arrangements, should anything happen to me, for your bond to pass to another." He stared at her, silent. "When you feel my death, you will find yourself compelled to seek her out immediately. I do not want you to be surprised by it."

"Compelled," he breathed softly, angrily. "Never once have you used my bond to compel me. I thought you more than disapproved of that."

"Had I left this thing undone, you would be free of the bond at my death, and not even my strongest command to you would hold. I will not allow you to die in a useless attempt to avenge me. And I will not allow you to return to your equally useless private war in the Blight. The war we fight is the same war, if you could only see it so, and I will see that you fight it to some purpose. Neither vengeance nor an unburied death in the Blight will do."

 

...

 

For a moment he studied his hands, large and square. "I had never thought," he said slowly, "that I might not be the first of us to die. Somehow, even at the worst, it always seemed . . . ." Abruptly he scrubbed his hands against each other. "If there is a chance I might be given like a pet lapdog, I would at least like to know to whom I am being given."

"I have never seen you as a pet," Moiraine said sharply, "and neither does Myrelle. "

"Myrelle." He grimaced. "Yes, she would have to be Green, or else some slip of a girl just raised to full sisterhood."

"If Myrelle can keep her three Gaidin in line, perhaps she has a chance to manage you. Though she would like to keep you, I know, she has promised to pass your bond to another when she finds one who suits you better."

"So. Not a pet but a parcel. Myrelle is to be a - a caretaker! Moiraine, not even the Greens treat their Warders so. No Aes Sedai has passed her Warder's bond to another in four hundred years, but you intend to do it to me not once, but twice!"

"It is done, and I will not undo it."

"The Light blind me, if I am to be passed from hand to hand, do you at least have some idea in whose hand I will end?"

"What I do is for your own good, and perhaps it may be for another's, as well. It may be that Myrelle will find a slip of a girl just raised to sisterhood - was that not what you said? - who needs a Warder hardened in battle and wise in the ways of the world, a slip of a girl who may need someone who will throw her into a pond. You have much to offer, Lan, and to see it wasted in an unmarked grave, or left to the ravens, when it could go to a woman who needs it would be worse than the sin of which the Whitecloaks prate. Yes, I think she will have need of you."

Lan's eyes widened slightly; for him it was the same as another man gasping in shocked surmise. She had seldom seen him so off balance. He opened his mouth twice before he spoke. "And who do you have in mind for this - "

She cut him off. "Are you sure the bond does not chafe, Lan Gaidin? Do you realize for the first time, only now, the strength of that bond, the depth of it? You could end with some budding White, all logic and no heart, or with a young Brown who sees you as nothing more than a pair of hands to carry her books and sketches. I can hand you where I will, like a parcel - or a lapdog - and you can do no more than go. Are you sure it does not chafe?"

 

TGH, Ch22

 

 

She has a purpose in saying this (delving into why he supported Rand in his defiance of the Amilryn early in TGH), but I had forgotten that this was the only time I really hated Moraine (and only the first time I read it, really). While we suspected it at the time, and now know for certain that Moiraine had only Lan's best interests at heart, this was pretty cruel. Dictatorial, even. It seem that kind of control even with the best intentions can seem a violation, especially when their previous working relationship had been exemplary. I dont know why I forget that in many ways, Moiraine is as much a Hard Woman making Hard Decisions as Cadsuane. Doing wrong for the greater good.

 

But at least the Warders know about it, and seemingly accept it as a possibility. THat makes it at least in part a quirk of the Warder culture , and less an hidden tool for suppressing the free will of the bonded, in comparison to the Ashaman bond and Compulsion (and much, much farther away from the Ad'am, which strips ones humanity)

No problem. During my reread I come upon parts of the story I had completely forgotten about all the time. Yes, I agree, messed up thing that Moiraine did but one of the kindest things done in the book, too. She saved him for the one woman he's loved (from what we know). Unless there was another possible way to save him, it was one of the few times in the story that someone being made to do something (whether through compulsion or plain old bullying didn't bother me) - at least, someone doing it to one of the main characters.

It issuch an interesting contrast: amongst Aes Sedai Compulsion is viewed as an abomination, but Compelling via the Bond is not viewed in nearly the same light. In fact, it is the act of Bonding another against his will that is contemptable in Aes Sedai culture, not the subsequent use of said bond to compel, which seems to be a greater insult (LoC Ch10 Verin to Alanna). Or perhaps that's just Verin's opinion. Is it because a Warder (in typical cases) has already agreed to the bond, and as such has made his will subjective to his mistress? My impression from the early books, is that Compelling via the Bond is rarely used... and I hope that's true. I liked reading about Aes Sedai and their Warders a lot more back in the day when I was young and naive, blithely thinking they were a supportive team, with the Aes Sedai in the lead. Choosing to serve the Aes Sedai by swearing oaths is noble, but knowing the Warders have even less free will than they choose to give away, not being aware that they can be controlled by the One Power when the step out of line? Not so much.

 

 

Does anyone know if the warders are aware of Compelling via the Bond before they accept the oaths? I don't think so, but I am not sure if I have missed any mention one way or another in the texts or in or the RJ question and answer sessions.

 

 

Is the difference is that it because its more a method of persuasion? Alanna's references about trying Compel rand (LoC Ch 10, WH Ch 25?) seem to indicate no, a sort of complete control, at least in some less than extremely strong willed, seems acheivable. Is the crime of Compulsion so much worse is damage in that does to the psyche (see pretty much every chapter about Graendal)? Perhaps that is the difference for the Aes Sedai Certainly, we dont see a lot of it (and more in theory than in practice) until the later books when the stakes are becoming so high,and desperation is driving everyone's actions.

 

 

I think thats why Egwene is going to be one of the best Amilryns ever, beyond her amazing actions in healing the White Tower. Her attitude about compulsion of all sorts seems unwaivering, perhaps informed by her experience as a Damane. SHe shuts down Lelaine in her plans to alter the bond with regards to Ashaman, she set Logain free instead of gentling him or having him bonded, and her biggest issue (aside from that pesky Last Battle plan) with Rand is how to deal with the bonded sisters (and the sworn sisters who she is worried are subject to Compulsion). Sure, she wants to lead and have everyone fall in line behind her, but as 'bossy' as she can appear, she seems to understand how important it is the Aes Sedai cast off their Puppetmaster title, both in practice and in reputation.

From the discussions that Lan has with Moiraine before entering the Stone and after, it would seem they have some idea. However, from the way Myrelle handles Lan when he comes to her (arriving after Moiraine's falling through the doorway terangreal), it would seem that when they do compel they try to do it with a soft touch so that the Warders don't realize it. Of course, that may have just been because he was on the edge.

Heres a random question: is there something special about 13 AS? we always hear that "even the thirteen weakest AS could shield Rand", but could the weakest 12? or does there need to be 13?

 

If we take Rand's approximate strength of about 25 (calling Lanfear 21, Nynaeve 18, and Elayne/Egwene/Avi 15, there is a saidar strength index somewhere and i recall Rand being a few levels above the strongest woman), and we know that the weakest AS (Daigain?) is a 4, then theoretically shouldn't only 7 AS be able to overpower Rand? Or does it not work like that.

 

Another related question: if we took 1 full AS of moderate power (say an 8) and had her link with 12 people as weak as Morgase, say, then they would only total a 20. Would they still be able to shield Rand because they hit the magical 13?

Levels aside, if you take the "even the 13 weakest Aes Sedai could shield Rand" thing completely literally, women of Morgase's strength could never become Aes Sedai so I don't know if thirteen women of her power could shield rand. I doubt they'd be able to create a shield. Although, 12 women of her strength linked to a woman of middling strength in Rand's time would definitely make the shield stronger.

Either way, during the last meeting of the Forsaken before the cleansing, one of the Forsaken mentions how the CK are indestructible. They were made with the thought of weaving the power to create a wall around the bore. I'm guessing this took more power than that. It wasn't a weave that was tied off but a continuous flow of power. Saidar was basically encasing a moving saidin AND the taint. As it guided and held saidin, I guess it was doing more of the work. Saidin just flowed. As it was encasing the whole of saidin and directing it (along with the taint...), it probably worked harder. Just a guess. What I take from the whole event is that the Forsaken thought them indestructible yet one of the keys was destroyed by what they did. Obviously, a big deal.

Oh, yes, I didn't mean that the access key survived. It's just that in KoD we learn that not only did it melt, the sa'angreal itself melted.

Gotcha.

It is the key - the terangreal - that is broken.

No, actually it's the sa'angreal itself:

The Great Hand on Tremalking melted. The hill where it stood reportedly is now a deep hollow.

OH! Then, it's both. I finished the book far too late last night. I've been doing that far too often on the reread. I remember that Cads is handling the broken terangreal key at the end of the cleansing chapter, though.

Edit: Thanks, yon.

Thanks Yo and Sutt.

 

That's odd. So the WIndfinders are better at weather than the people in AOL, and it stressed the device. Hmm, I wonder if you can stress a Ter'Angral enough to break or if this proves it can't.

 

Oh well.

You can do it with a sarangreal - Choeden Kal.

 

He didn't overload it, he turned it's power back into itself. Theres a slight difference.

The female key is melted after cleansing saidin and useless.

 

Touche ya got me.

 

Interesting!

Hahaha! I'm sure you've gotten me already. Yeah, what's more interesting is that somewhere either in that book or the one previous, the Forsaken are at a meeting and someone says that Choeden Kal is indestructible - but maybe they meant the actual sarangreal and not the terangreal keys.

 

Good point. I'm actually not sure how the Female one was destroyed. How can something made to draw power in be destroyed by drawring power?I mean I understand how Rand destroyed his, he did it on purpose. But I always thought the Female one just destroyed the key. They I read closer and realized the actualy item was destroyed.

It is the key - the terangreal - that is broken.

Thanks Yo and Sutt.

 

That's odd. So the WIndfinders are better at weather than the people in AOL, and it stressed the device. Hmm, I wonder if you can stress a Ter'Angral enough to break or if this proves it can't.

 

Oh well.

You can do it with a sarangreal - Choeden Kal.

 

He didn't overload it, he turned it's power back into itself. Theres a slight difference.

The female key is melted after cleansing saidin and useless.

 

Touche ya got me.

 

Interesting!

Hahaha! I'm sure you've gotten me already. Yeah, what's more interesting is that somewhere either in that book or the one previous, the Forsaken are at a meeting and someone says that Choeden Kal is indestructible - but maybe they meant the actual sarangreal and not the terangreal keys.

Thanks Yo and Sutt.

 

That's odd. So the WIndfinders are better at weather than the people in AOL, and it stressed the device. Hmm, I wonder if you can stress a Ter'Angral enough to break or if this proves it can't.

 

Oh well.

You can do it with a sarangreal - Choeden Kal.

 

He didn't overload it, he turned it's power back into itself. Theres a slight difference.

The female key is melted after cleansing saidin and useless.

I looked around a bit and did not see anything. In LoC Mat and the Band find a bunch of slain Tinkers, and one of them wrote "Tell the Dragon Reborn" in his blood. is this explained in the books anywhere? I'm in the middle of a re-read and I have forgoten alot so maybe I just have'nt gotten to it yet.

I just think it's Fain taunting Rand. Killing Tinkers isn't nice.

How do you figure? I mean, what made you think of Fain, of all people?

There's no logic to it. It's what came into my mind. It could have been someone trying stir the pot, trying to get Rand to distrust the Aiel as they were moving down to Tear along that path. But, it seemed too small of a thing for the Forsaken to do. Could have been random DFs.

Edit to add: It may have been that the last time we saw a message left to be found and written in blood was in Shienar when Fain is broken out of prison.

I looked around a bit and did not see anything. In LoC Mat and the Band find a bunch of slain Tinkers, and one of them wrote "Tell the Dragon Reborn" in his blood. is this explained in the books anywhere? I'm in the middle of a re-read and I have forgoten alot so maybe I just have'nt gotten to it yet.

I just think it's Fain taunting Rand. Killing Tinkers isn't nice.

I was wondering, does anyone have a list of the named characters the Fain/Ordeith corrupted when he was criss crossing the globe making Madeshar-intensified trouble for team LIght?

 

Mine is

PEdron Niall

Eladia

....

hmm...

Dain Bornhold

 

Also, have we seen anyone who has Fain-induced paranoia return to baseline as it were? I wonder if Dain is the only one who is one that path.

Other minor or major characters.... no. A bunch of WCs and some assorted nobles. OH! Toram - the noble who wanted to become King of Cairhien. Lan kills him in Far Madding.

Thanks Yo and Sutt.

 

That's odd. So the WIndfinders are better at weather than the people in AOL, and it stressed the device. Hmm, I wonder if you can stress a Ter'Angral enough to break or if this proves it can't.

 

Oh well.

You can do it with a sarangreal - Choeden Kal.

Re-reading tPoD. When Rand rains fire and lightning on his own troops (and kills Adley) using Callandor, do we know definitively if this is due to Saidin being "alive" following the use of the Bowl of the Winds or is it due to the flaw in Callandor?

 

combination of both, imo. We saw where another Asha'man lost control of his weave because of how "alive" saidin is. But there is no doubt that the magnification of the taint was on display, as Rand is out of control until Bashere breaks through.

 

A better question is, why did using the bowl cause Sadain to come alive? Was that ever explained?

it was both saidar and saidin that came alive. they never explain it, probably the enormous amount of power used and... well, it's weather. It's everywhere.

What did the dice no longer spinning in mats head symbolise?

I think it's more than that. The dice seemed to imply that he was set on the road to some life-altering moment/decision. For example, agreeing to accompany Nynaeve and Elayne to the Tarasin Palace ignited those dice because it meant he would meet Tuon, and indeed they stopped rolling when he did. One other example is when he decided to rescue Moiraine -- that decision was what the dice signify at the time.

I agree - the dice start rolling for him in Ebou Dar and he meets the gholam in an alley way. He fights him and Noal comes and saves him (because the gholam has orders not to kill in front of others). But, the dice keep rolling. It's not until he meets Tuon in the palace that the dice stop rolling. It wasn't the danger from the gholam but the momentous event of meeting Tuon.

Instead of Spidey Sense, he has Gambler Sense.

Would you call the Bastard of Bolton a competent villain?

No, I'd call him a poor misguided soul. He's a bad man, yes, but he hardly is the Winter Nan promised us all this time ago.

 

As for JRRM's world - who are the villians? Do you mean the monsters on the other side of the wall?

The Others and their Wights, yes. And their God, most likely.

Gotcha. I tried to figure out who the story is really about. I think it's the Kingdom over all others.

That's not a completely valid comparison, because we've actually seen very little of GRRM's true villains. It's his protagonists that have been slaying each other up until now.

 

And, as long as we're talking about the Forsaken, one of the most effective among them has been... wait for it... Mesaana. You simply don't see her driving hand behind the events in question until the very end.

That's true - Mesaana - she doesn't do anything flashy, like destroying half an army - but she sure screws with the Tower well. But, that's a problem with RJ's writing, in my opinion. So much of what the forsaken do that actually WORKS is never shown completely. The reader's left guessing at it.

As for JRRM's world - who are the villians? Do you mean the monsters on the other side of the wall?

That's defintely true - JRR Martin really treats his characters like @#%$. Which is refreshing to see. I haven't read the other books. I'll put them on my list. Thanks, man.

What books do you suggest with competent villians? Baron Harkonen does a pretty good job for a while...

Don't forget about their fight at the end of the Eye of the World. Ishy was a crispy critter for a while after that encounter. By my count, there's been three confrontations between Rand and Ishy that have ended in violence, in the EotW, tGH, and tDR.

Right you are. I completely overlooked that.