On 5/1/2024 at 3:17 PM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

What in the Light are banana peppers? Yeah, I could Google but explanations are more fun.

Well you see... when a banana and a pepper fall in love...

57 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

@SinisterDeath The writer's strike was primarily about the following things:

1. Writers' pay in an era of digital streaming

2. Protections against AI being used to replace writers altogether

3. Pension and Healthcare benefits

4. Job security for writers

 

None of these things have anything whatsoever to do with the general operation and functions of writers' rooms, which do still exist in far more television productions than you seem to think.

https://variety.com/2023/biz/news/wga-new-contract-strike-ai-writers-room-staffs-residuals-1235736648/
 

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MINIMUM TV WRITERS ROOM STAFFING

The WGA asked for a minimum of six writers for a series that has been greenlighted for at least six episodes per season. The agreement calls for at least three writer-producers (members who are more senior) to be hired on all series, and that number can include the showrunner. The number of members at the more junior writer or staff writer level will rise on a sliding scale depending on the number of episodes ordered. A six-episode series calls for at least three writer-level hires. Series than run 7-12 episodes per season have to hire five writers; series that run 13 episodes or more must hire six writers.

https://www.thewrap.com/writers-rooms-wga-strike/
 

Quote

“The writers’ room is under attack,” said “New Amsterdam” creator David Schulner on Tuesday from the first round of picket lines at Netflix’s production offices in Los Angeles. “These proposals on mandatory staffing aren’t really a push for anything new. We’re fighting to protect the way television writers have worked and been paid for years. But because writers’ rooms aren’t something that is codified in our contract, streaming studios are systematically working to disassemble it.”

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The rise of streaming, especially over the past few years, has muddled this process. Studios, particularly streamers like Netflix, increasingly use mini-rooms to order more scripts before a project is even greenlit. For a time, mini-rooms were seen by some writers as a way to sweeten the pot when convincing streamers to greenlight their shows, as they were able to give executives a better idea of where a show’s story was headed.

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But Luvh Rakhe, writer for the FX show “Dave” and member of the WGA negotiating committee, said mini-rooms have become abused in a way that has led to lower pay for writers, and fewer opportunities to gain the experience with the production process that naturally comes with traditional writers’ rooms, as only a fraction of the writers brought into mini-rooms end up being hired alongside the showrunner by the studio to oversee scripts through production.

9 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

What follows is a general description of how the television writing process generally works and how a television writing room typically functions, as per the experience of my TV writer collaborator.

 

The process for creating a television series typically begins with a writers' meeting that usually occurs about a month before production begins. At this meeting, the Showrunner generally presents an overall layout of stories that need to be taken from idea to completed script, and writing assignments for individual scripts are then given out, with the priority being the premiere episode(s) (if the premiere is intended to be a multi-parter).

 

Each individual writer is then given a predetermined period of time by the Showrunner in which to take their assigned projects from planning to initial draft to final approved script; this period of time is typically 7 to 8 days (which is the standard minimal shooting time for a single episode of television), and allows a television series to be continually filming without having to pause the workflow.

 

Some notes on the typical functions and duties of a Showrunner:

1. They are usually the seniormost writer in a writer's room

2. They are the final authority when it comes to the finalization of all scripts

3. They may or may not provide a 'final polish' on the scripts that are submitted to them

4. They may or may not reach out to or collaborate with other members of the production team (such as a Consulting Producer) before offering final approval to an individual script, or instruct an individual writer to do so themselves

You're neglecting that these are Streaming Networks. Yes these are "Series", but they've changed the game and how the deals were made between writers/directors.

What you're describing is how Writing Rooms USED to work for standard broadcast television... Back when Seinfeld or Lost was popular.

The reason I mentioned show runners used to have "skin in the game", is because... Skin in the game = $$. Back in the the day, show Runners were often producers of their own shows because they often had to put their own money into their show to get a network to buy it. This information shouldn't be news to anyone.

However, like I said, Netflix "changed" the game. They effectively removed that barrier by just "letting anyone" make a show. That means... contracts changed.... and when contracts change, so did the balance of power.
 

How "writing rooms" work in "Streaming" are fundamentally different then how they were 10-20 years ago for standard broadcast television... Again, they changed the "balance of power".. It's completely shifted in favor of the "streaming provider" and out of the hands of the show runner.

This is literally a Huge chunk of what the writers guild strike last summer was about.

 

You might have got lucky and worked with a writer that worked on a show that actually still worked in a "classic writing room environment", but unfortunately that's not how every writing room operates these days... Hell, not every show even has a writing room... Again, something the writers guild strike was literally about!

33 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

None of these things accurately represent the way in which a television writing room actually functions, at least based on the general practices that were explained to me by my aforementioned TV writer collaborator.

Producers/Studio Executives can and will interfere with how a Movie/TV show is written or directed.
The metaphor of "Architecture" and "writing" was used to illustrate the relationship between the Client (producer) and the architect (Writer). 

"Change orders" are a very real thing in the construction industry that causes Architects/Drafters to beat their head against a wall when the client makes a new demand.... and this is also something that 100% definitely exists in Hollywood... because ultimately the client is the person with the money (Producer).

15 hours ago, Samt said:

For instance, there just wasn't a strong need to make Abel a philanderer and Natti a drunk.  I understand some like that this change brings more edge to Emond's field.  But it lets us know right out of the gate that someone (the writers or someone above them) wants to make changes because he or she can.  As I said above, maybe it's not fair to pin that on the writers. We don't really know what constraints they were working under.  But someone is responsible for that change.  It wasn't just the path of least resistance. 

 

And it certainly doesn't feel like someone was respecting the fact that the story is complicated and changes are going to have ripple effects.  And that's really the contradiction that I think is really rubbing a lot of book fans the wrong way.  Don't tell me it's difficult because of the complexity and lack of run time while also adding complexity that eats up runtime.  

Do you remember Rafe's story where the other writers in the room were talking about changing Perrin's power from Wolves to Bears, and Rafe had to Interject before Sarah had an aneurysm and started stabbing people? (paraphrasing here)

Some of the other writers they hired were too worried about the optics of WoT looking like a GoT knock off that they wanted to change Perrin's core ability from Wolves to Bears... Making him... Bear Brother.

These same writers also couldn't see the implicit colorism/racism of making a black actor (Marcus Rutherford) a Bear Brother when his book counterpart was a Wolf Brother. Though it should be noted, I don't know if they had already cast people at this time, or if this was before casting. But Holy shit. If they went with, not only would it have pissed of every fan, the racism optics of that is just absolutely bonkers bad... It's also something Rafe never acknowledged from that story. (which at least leads me to believe this was before casting?)

Point is. That was one story that didn't get through the writing process. Obviously Mat's parents did.

The other thing you have to consider is that just because they finish a script in that room, doesn't mean they don't have to come back for rewrites when mother (amazon) says re-write.

Amazon might come back with redlined notes like "make this character darker". "Make this character a drunk". "Make this character gritter". "Make the episode darker". "Make it more like game of thrones".

Then the writers have to go back through, and tweak everything they've already written based off those notes.

Why didn't Egwene's father have more lines?

Probably because those notes cut him short.

Why did they cast "Cenn Buie", only to change him to "Old Man" in the credits?

Those notes all play a role...

If you want a better example then a racecar driver... Think of an Architect designing a house.

You approach an Architect and say want a 4000SF house and you've got $1M to build it. 

You present the Architect with the Land you've already purchased.  You show the Architect a picture of a house you really like, and some descriptions of what you'd like inside that house.

Few months later, the architect presents you the plans!

It's a two story, 50'x40' house, the exterior looks identical to the picture!

The interior layouts look nothing like you imagined it however! 

You wanted the bedrooms on the first floor, and the kitchen on the top floor. You wanted a walk-in-closet in the master bedroom. A shared bathroom for 2 of the bedrooms. A Large Pantry.

The Architect looks confounded as none of this was in the original notes! They even explain that typically bedrooms go on the top floor, and kitchens are on the bottom floor!

The Architect makes the changes a few weeks later. You return, look over them and ask if the architect could remove a wall down the center of building to add a pool. The Architect sighs and explains that's a load bearing wall and while it's possible it would cost a lot of money and would vastly change the core structure of the building.

And so it goes, for months and months. Redlining and changes and by the time the project is done, it looks nothing like the "original draft". If your lucky it's still under budget and doesn't get canceled for going over.

19 hours ago, Samt said:

Are you saying that the machine is so cumbersome and restrictive that the show creators and writers effectively don't have creative control of the products they are producing?  They just turn the crank and something comes out?  

 

That's like saying that we have this sausage machine and because of the way we clean it, the sausage always comes out with a strong taste of soap.  It's not our fault.  That's just how the machine was made.  

 

Even if that is true, it just means that someone needs to get the power and imagination to break the machine.  At some level, someone is responsible.  And I'm suspicious that guy likes the taste of soap.  

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

The writing rooms we have today (2024) are different then the writing rooms we had back in 1994, or 2004. The amount of "control" the "show runner" had, has  severely diminished in favor of the "network"... And you can thank Netflix for changing this Dynamic.

Remember the joke "Netflix will give ANYONE a show?"

There was truth to that. They experimented with "Orange is the New Black" by creating something that was never done before on a Streaming network before. An "original". Then they started pumping out more "originals".

Eventually they started throwing $$$ around and created a LOT of Low quality content. (That's where that joke came from)

That backfired, so they dialed that back and started putting their thumb on the writers and producers... And so did every other company that did streaming.

Disney+, Paramount, Peacock, etc.

The main point here is that back when shows like "X-Files", "Supernatural", "Lost", "Heroes", "Etc", were being made, show runners had a lot of "skin" in the game.

They "owned" a portion of the show, and thus they had the were able to maintain creative control of their shows to an extent.

Shows like WoT?
Rafe doesn't have that kind of Skin in the game. If Amazon fires him, he's completely SOL. He likely doesn't have a huge contract that they have to buy out... And he ultimately has to play Daes Dae'mar with Amazon Studios.... So let's hope he was good at Survivor and not voted off in the first round?

14 hours ago, Samt said:

Which is a more faithful adaptation of the WoT book series:  Amazon Wheel of Time or Star Wars Episode VII?

WoT. Because Star Wars Episode VII isn't a Book Adaptation.

 

On 4/11/2024 at 5:43 PM, henrywho said:

Yes I know his wife was his editor. None of us know anything about the motivations of Harriet or Brandon, nothing at all

Going to stop you right there.

If your going act like you knew RJ enough to know that he would hate this adaptation... Then you really need to stop and think about what he'd say to you about what you're implying about his wife.

As Haman said, we don't do that here.

On 4/11/2024 at 7:07 PM, zacz1987 said:

To be fair I don't think Harriet had much choice as the rights were still with Red Eagle Entertainment (now called iWOT) and they have already successfully sued her once for saying negative things about them. 

On 4/11/2024 at 8:04 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Red Eagle does not have the rights to the show. Amazon does. And she’s had nothing but positive things to say about the show. 

Zacz is right here Elder. 

iWOT doesn't directly have anything to do with the show, but they ultimately "sold" the show to Amazon. Harriet/Brandon don't have any creative power behind the show. They're only writing consultants.

Writers ultimately answer to Producers, and Executive Producers, which probably answer to Amazon.
  

On 4/18/2024 at 8:07 PM, Elder_Haman said:

You are claiming that there is a written agreement that she not say anything bad about the series. I am asking you to prove that. Obviously there is a written agreement between Harriet (or whatever corporate entity represents her) and Amazon. That is a far different thing from a contract that restricts her ability to offer her opinion.

This might well be an impossible task. That would be like asking to prove the agreement between Harriet and Amazon. A lot of these contracts are private. We don't even know the details of the contract she and RJ had between REE are. It's very likely that she signed some contract before she set foot on set as a consultant, and that included an NDA... and possibly a non-disparage clause... and since REE is still attached as producers of the show.... and they've established that she cannot disparage anything REE is involved with...

That said, it's a leap to claim to know that Harriet hates the show because she's not saying enough about it online. Anyone that's been around for any length of time knows that Harriet doesn't make a lot of public statements.

3 hours ago, Delenn said:

LoL I was referring to my favorite eyebrow suddenly appearing. 

 

Wait.. It's not Delenn? 

 

Nope. Because the current Delenn was created in 2020 and I wasn't able to find any other Delenn's lol. <_<

38 minutes ago, Delenn said:

And SD  🤍

I was referring to what your old account name was back then because your current one is not from 2007!  lol

10 minutes ago, HeroAndros said:

Only if you kept your photobucket account active. I let mine lapse and they purged everything to do with it. I can't even tell you what all I lost that way.

...I still have mine... I've even gave up trying to get them to delete it!

Photobucket routinely sent out stuff threatening to delete all your pictures and most of the time that was bull crap. lol 

Mind, I'd check mine like... every 2-4 years...

Back when they were threatening to delete stuff if you were over capacity... they never did. You just couldn't... do anything until you deleted stuff below capacity.

(I... Just don't know how you go from being the best service for hosting photos to the worst service in the span of a year...)

4 hours ago, Delenn said:

I am hoping someone has some of the ones I made for them way back when... Especially if someone still has one of those shifting Warder cloak sigs I made once.... ? 😁

5 minutes ago, Delenn said:

That wasn't my fault! I didn't realize 20 people loading those at the same time would overload the server. 😅

Wait. How many years ago was this, and who/what account was this back then?

If you hosted the pictures on photobucket or something they're probably on your old photobucket - not DM.

1 hour ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Wait, you guys need an explanation of what sweetcorn is? Sweet jebus that makes my day. 🤣

Oh no, I know what sweet corn is.
I'm just checking how they're putting on the pizza.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if they left the husk on it!

10 minutes ago, Bugglesley said:

And broadly, again in the real world, would you really argue that an Oxford graduate in 1324, a more mystical time in many places to be sure, understands the world better than any human with a high school education in 2024? Be serious. There is still much that is mysterious and unknown and unknowable, but if you wish to live in a time and place where nobody knows how measure and harness electricity, understand and defeat germs, practice agricultural chemistry, or establish systems that allow, encourage, and have succeeded in furthering each of those understandings over time... idk what to tell you. Enjoy famines and cholera ig?

You're reading waaay too much into what I typed as it pertains to the real world, versus how it pertains to the world of the wheel of time.

10 minutes ago, Bugglesley said:

This is where it becomes a battle of speculations, but a syllogism to consider:

- We know the One Power can carry information as well as power

- We know the Well was filled by extremely knowledgeable, powerful male Aes Sedai

- We can speculate that the saidin within the well carried some of their knowledge

Earlier you accused me of making up an entire magic system out of thin air... and here you are... creating memories within the well of the eye of the world, when nothing in the text, supports this.

11 minutes ago, Bugglesley said:

I'm more than willing to separate these phenomena, it was the Eye of the World in book 1 and then to behold the pipe at the conclusion and imagine that exposure to the Creator directly has after effects.

If you recall at the end of the 3rd age Rand Sealed the Dark One in his Prison. And when you begin the book series again we're greeted with the iconic line

Quote

Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again.

Think about that for a minute in context about the Creator Sealing the Dark one at the "moment of creation", and what Rand just did... at the end of the 3rd age.... And that there are neither beginnings or endings in... the wheel of time... Because legend fades myth.... and myth is long forgotten...

On 1/20/2024 at 5:25 PM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

My theme tune, graciously supplied by Poppy. 

 

https://youtu.be/wbQsxWKfTSU?si=4lMZGFKK3AS2lU-N

*Starts making a circle out of salt around himself*
"Just playing it safe you know, pretty sure that was a summoning ritual"

On 1/21/2024 at 9:29 AM, Delenn said:

Give me my pineapple and ham pizza! With thin, streaky bacon and roasted red peppers please! 😋

 

Now, what I cannot get my head around is sweet corn on pizza. That's just weird! 

Like, the whole dang sweet corn on the cob? 

4 hours ago, Bugglesley said:

It's cute to "often describe" something thus, but it's flat out not supported by the text. The most experienced weaver can't reproduce a tapestry after seeing it once, much less just figure out on their own how to make a new one from scratch when trial-and-error literally means burning to a cinder, and yet that happens over and over and over. And it's not just our super special chosen ones doing it! The average channeller does, throughout the later books.

It was a metaphor to explain teaching weaves to others, compared to what was happening to Rand in the first book, and the difficulty of constantly doing that thing over and over again without catastrophic failure.

In the first book, Rand was effectively blind, deaf, and dumb.

He couldn't see his weaves. He couldn't feel his weaves, and he didn't know what he was doing, or that he was even doing anything at all! By the end of the book he was making things happen because he wanted (willed) them to happen.

Contrary to your statement, the above paragraph is supported In the text. 

4 hours ago, Bugglesley said:

And with that established, this theory withers on the vine. Why invent a new, super ultra secret backup magic system when every single thing (aside from the pipe, a series ending stinger to keep you guessing and much better explained by what happened in the cave) can be explained by the system that's already here? It's not described in those terms in EotW, sure, but then nothing anyone does with the Power is because RJ hadn't nailed down how he was going to talk about it yet. Our old pal Occam has something to say about this. If you don't think the One Power allows for things that the One Power regularly does... maybe your understanding of the One Power is what is wrong.

This has nothing to do with creating some super secret backup magic system.

It's applying everything we know from the beginning of the first book to the ending of the last book, and assuming every inconsistency in the novels magic system is "true", and then figuring out how to make everything "consistent" when you have a bunch of inconsistencies!

Rand used a gateway at the end of book 1 to Tarwin's gap. He didn't know his start location at all, though he had a good idea of where he wanted to go... He forgets how to use the weave after using it! Even though Rand learns weaves the first time he sees/uses them... And then he uses them again and again in books 3 and 4 until he finally learns travelling for real in book 5 after realizing like a big thick dummy head what he's been doing all the damn time, and he would never have figured it out if he never relieved some stress in that igloo...

When he gets to Tarwin's gap, he does this weird matrix warp effect on the ground which causes the earth to ripple around him and that Matrix style volcanic Eruption kills a ton of Trollocs in the process - LTT was not in control during this, and he completely forgot that weave to.

Yes they were weaves, but I also think Rand just made those weaves happen instead of him blindly weaving a billion threads of the one power. The Plot armor is strong in Rand.

Yes, Occam's razor - RJ evolved his magic system and fleshed it out over time. Blah blah, don't care. Magic pipe, and his quotes about "magic" in the 4th age being "very weird" says otherwise. One of the literal themes of the books is "rules are meant to be broken" / "Authority doesn't know what they think they know". Authority figures like the Aes Sedai love to think they know everything, and the one power is made up of nothing but rules, and and they're constantly being broken! lol

The idea in the post you replied to. To expand on that.
It's entirely plausible that Aes Sedai in the 2nd Age applied the scientific method to the one power. (Re: See RJ's personal religious views) This could be RJ's form of commentary on how "scientists" have applied the scientific method to the natural world, and the world at large, and how it's "demystified" everything, and how it's removed the "magic" and "mystery" from the world.

Bu applying that method to the one power, they've created rules like "this works" and "this doesn't work" . That leads to tradition and self imposed rules and limitations upon institutions (---> white tower). Which is why the Forsaken were surprised that certain things were possible when they thought they were impossible.

Your assertion that I'm creating a new magic system is baloney. I'm just trying to keep everything consistently true (in my own head canon) instead of hand-waving away that RJ evolved his magic system and ignore how "magic" worked in the first 3 books.

I believe there are things that happen in the final books (magic wise) that parallel the first books that when you look at them together, it's worth reexamining that RJ's "plan" was intentional, and that not everything should just be hand-waved away as "he was just fleshing out the magic system" and "more was going on then we know".
(Example being, the fight in Book 3 = We now know those happened what we now know are called Dream Shards)

The One Power is a "Hard Magic system with Soft spots". It's a system that has self imposed rules and limitations created by humans, because humans create their own reality, and Rand has the ability to change reality as we know it.

Perrin Aybara - 34(+1)

Egwene al'Vere - 13

Lan Mandragoran - 33   

Logain Ablar - 3(-1)

Ba'alzamon (Ishamael) - 9

Out

Alviarin Freidhen

Moiraine Damodred

Rand al'Thor

Alanna Mosvani

Leane Sharif

Tam al'Thor

Siuan Sanche

Thom Merrilin

Mat Cauthon

Loial

Nynaeve al'Meara 

Min Farshaw

Perrin Aybara - 33(+1)

Egwene al'Vere - 13

Lan Mandragoran - 32   

Logain Ablar - 5 (-1)

Ba'alzamon (Ishamael) - 9

Out

Alviarin Freidhen

Moiraine Damodred

Rand al'Thor

Alanna Mosvani

Leane Sharif

Tam al'Thor

Siuan Sanche

Thom Merrilin

Mat Cauthon

Loial

Nynaeve al'Meara 

Min Farshaw

3 hours ago, Elgee said:

 

There is something for once a week or such, I think?

We used to have it send just 1 email when there was a new post / message, and then it wouldn't send you another until you've looked at it, and then there's another update. That worked nicely.

Under Account Settings -> Notifications 

You can change your notifications on DM or via email, to change from every new content posted, to one email per day, to one email per week, or do not send notifications.

For PM's, unfortunately it's either one Email per PM, or no Emails at all.

Depending on your email service, you might be able to set up rules to suppress emails from that specific source to once per day? 

(BT) - 10

(WT) - 71

(SG) - 99

(S) - 89

(BT) Arie - 8

(BT) LZM - 2

(WT) Arie - 6

(WT) WD - 17

(WT) CaddySedai - 3

(WT) Heavy - 45

(SG) Arie - 51

(SG) Lily - 48

(S) SD - 89

Perrin Aybara - 32 (+1)

Egwene al'Vere - 13

Lan Mandragoran - 31   

Logain Ablar - 7 (-1)

Ba'alzamon (Ishamael) - 9

Out

Alviarin Freidhen

Moiraine Damodred

Rand al'Thor

Alanna Mosvani

Leane Sharif

Tam al'Thor

Siuan Sanche

Thom Merrilin

Mat Cauthon

Loial

Nynaeve al'Meara 

Min Farshaw

BT) - 10

(WT) - 71

(SG) - 98

(S) - 88

(BT) Arie - 8

(BT) LZM - 2

(WT) Arie - 6

(WT) WD - 17

(WT) CaddySedai - 3

(WT) Heavy - 45

(SG) Arie - 51

(SG) Lily - 47

(S) SD - 88

Perrin Aybara - 31 (+1)   

Egwene al'Vere - 13

Lan Mandragoran - 30

Logain Ablar - 9 (-1)

Ba'alzamon (Ishamael) - 9

Out

Alviarin Freidhen

Moiraine Damodred

Rand al'Thor

Alanna Mosvani

Leane Sharif

Tam al'Thor

Siuan Sanche

Thom Merrilin

Mat Cauthon

Loial

Nynaeve al'Meara 

Min Farshaw

BT) - 10

(WT) - 71

(SG) - 97

(S) - 87

(BT) Arie - 8

(BT) LZM - 2

(WT) Arie - 6

(WT) WD - 17

(WT) CaddySedai - 3

(WT) Heavy - 45

(SG) Arie - 51

(SG) Lily - 46

(S) SD - 87

Perrin Aybara - 30 (+1)

Egwene al'Vere - 13

Lan Mandragoran - 29   

Logain Ablar - 11 (-1)

Ba'alzamon (Ishamael) - 9

Out

Alviarin Freidhen

Moiraine Damodred

Rand al'Thor

Alanna Mosvani

Leane Sharif

Tam al'Thor

Siuan Sanche

Thom Merrilin

Mat Cauthon

Loial

Nynaeve al'Meara 

Min Farshaw -