Oh I don't believe that he tried to paint her in a negative light just so he could kill her off in the slightest.

 

Just pointing out that Brandon wrote more parts than what you seem to think in the epilogue. Sleeping is absolutely correct. You may want to dig a bit deeper into the interviews. Important to note we have seen stories on who did what consistently evolve/change throughout this whole process. AS answers indeed. Even in your post you seem to to not be sure as you say "no ambiguity" and then "almost all". That leaves an opening for other pieces to be done by Brandon. Further if you are "sure" about the Tam portion where he mentions Egwene perhaps you could back it up with the author quote saying that is the case?

She can see other people's future but not her own.  She hardly did anything throughout the series...

Uhmm what? You mean aside from giving Rand the crucial piece of information needed to defeat the DO?

 

 

 Killing Egwene off was pointless and may have been decided by RJ based on negative feedback from fans.  He clearly wrote the end with egwene's funeral being mentioned in the epilogue and did intend her to die.  I just think it was sad and pointless and I'm really disappointed.

 

RJ wouldn't have made that decision based on negative feedback from the fans. Further as stated Brandon added a number pieces beyond those you mention to the epilogue as well, so your point above is moot.

Tyrants Law by Daniel Abraham. Really enjoying it so far.

Actually, what's Lanfear's skillset? I know she's the strongest female chaneler in the world (was anyway) but aside from raw power and knowledge of Lews, what did she bring to the Shadow's table?

 

She was a researcher at the Collam Daan. We see her lust for power and character flaws showing up even back then however. Despite being as powerful as a woman could be she didn't distinguish herself enough to earn the coveted third name. She also is very skilled in Tar obviously.

What IS Balthamel's skillset?

 

I ask because, it really does seem like, for a group of supposed master manipulators and spies, some of the Forsaken are AWFUL at keeping their emotions masked while working.

 

Look at Balthamel, he was openly angry at Egwene just because she didn't want his help with her headaches? Yes, I get why he'd be frustrated and angry but he was in the middle of his act and he openly showed anger. Dude, your cover?

 

Balthamel was a historian that that specialized in vanished cultures. He was a gambler and rake that had a terrible temper. The temper combined with his strength in the OP almost earned him a sentence of being bound with the OP to do no violence in the AoL.

Hawkwings stance on them towards the end of his rule certainly didn't help views of them

Indeed. Ishy took the crack that was Hawkwing's relationship with Bonwhin and turned it into a chasm in which all AS were sacked from their governor positions, his advisors dismissed and he refused healing on his deathbed. That had to have trickled down to the general populace somewhat.

Started "Jesus' Sun" by Denis Johnson.

He wanted so badly to have revenge on Lews Therin for being the dragon instead of him, but at the same time, he was always too level-headed to just run into the fray and try to take him out. His extreme anger is balanced so well with his cool deameanor that the hatred the other forsaken feel toward Rand seems almost trivial.

 

AMOL SPOILER

 

 

 

Amen

Johnny Thunders "One Track Mind"

 

 

Clearly nothing to do with the points made in thread concerning similarities or the fact that Goodkind mocked RJ when he was on his death bed. A marxist conspiracy is the obvious choice. Well done comrade.

 

What did he say? I've managed to miss that, but I haven't read Goodkind, so ...

 

 

He mocked the health of RJ's heart compared to his own when RJ was dying. It was so bad Jordan was forced to address it in his last ever blog post.

 

I seem to feeling rather viperish today. I also hear that a certain writer, on hearing that I had heart problems, announced that his cardiologist, on holding his (the writer’s) heart in his hands said that he could have been holding the heart of a sixteen year-old or some such. My cardiologist told me much the same thing, but I made him give it back. Ahem. A question occurs. What was wrong that anyone had their filthy fingers palping his actual heat. All my heart examinations have been via catheritazation or electrocardiogram or echocardiogram or the like. Only if they saw cause would anyone be sticking fingers into my chest must less fingering my heart. Some discrepancy there, eh?

 

On, well. Down, Simba! Down, Big Boy. That’s what Harriet says when I get like this. Lets get on to something a little more pleasant.

 

The Weeks

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Azpm7_hjqM

I'm not convinced...

 Shocker.

 

Clearly nothing to do with the points made in thread concerning similarities or the fact that Goodkind mocked RJ when he was on his death bed. A marxist conspiracy is the obvious choice. Well done comrade.

 They are needlessly overspecific. No I'm not going to be able to find another series that has "male only magic controlling devices". Not many series even have gendered magic in the first place. I could probably find a device that controls a magic user, but men only? Probably not.  

 So you agree with our point that beyond generic tropes SoT/WoT share these very specific similarities and uses them in the same ways in the plot. That is our argument. It's not just a female order that dominates magic and the males being feared/controlled, gendered magic, magic controlling devices, but additionally many other things Agitel has listed. Now stop with the genric tropes and show us other series that have all these things and use them in the same way.  

 

 

Suttree: If you're using the same tropes it would follow that they are used generally in the same ways at the same times in a story.

 

 

If that even has the slightest shred of truth it should be very easy for you to do. It goes far beyond "generic tropes" and the more specific we get the more generic leaning your argument seems to become.

Recall from the start we said it's not about generic fantasy tropes. Most of the above so generic as to be beside the point and you know it. Leaving aside how flawed so many of those examples are and the jig you have to dance to make them fit from a plot perspective I am asking you to compare series using your original example with a female magic order and the following.

"Male wizards are derided/looked upon with fear/need to be controlled. (&)There are no organized male institutions in the modern day." How many have devices like the a'dam and gender specific type magic that use woven flows of elements?

Now how many series have those similarities along with the same position and use in the plot? This is just one example mind, there are numerous others that follow the same pattern. Interested to hear about all the other series out there you can find for this. Your initial point was shot down when it is clear how very different all those other female magic group examples are from the above. Most bare zero resemblance whatsoever to what we are discussing.

Also, if anyone has any recommendations for other series like this (in terms of how much you like them, not necessary content or style) I would be grateful. It's like I'm trying to get a new puppy because I just had to put my dog down....

 

Welcome to DM.

 

Here is a good place to start on suggestions.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/81212-need-reading-suggestions/

In that case please reference other series in which that is the case concerning the similarities and how they are used in the same ways at the same time in the plot that we see in SoT and WoT. There certainly should be a substantial list if what you claim is true.

 

Keep in mind your first exampe with the female magic schools has already shown to be lacking.

But it doesn't take those tropes from WoT that's my point. WoT doesn't own those tropes, didn't create them. They are not unique to WoT.

 

 To use your example of the female magic users how many of those stories you listed also include scenarios where  "Male wizards are derided/looked upon with fear/need to be controlled. (&)There are no organized male institutions in the modern day." How many have devices like the a'dam and gender specific type magic that use woven flows of elements?

 

You are focusing on similarities(with just this alone there are far too many to be coincedence) and ignoring the "position and use within the plot" part.

 

 

Yes but what I am saying is I don't think there are that many examples that WoT and SoT share that they don't also share with other series.

I'll take the example of Aes Sedai and the Sisters of the Light as I believe they are one of the examples that would be cited, correct me if I'm wrong though.

Yes, WoT and SoT share a school/bastion of magic using women. But coming to the conclusion that one is taken from the other is being far too hasty in my opinion.

Here are a few other examples of such things in other works:

1.Beauxbatons Academy of Magic from Harry Potter.

2.Miss Cackle's Academy for Witches from The Worst Witch.

3. Greenlaw College from Scholarly Magics.

4. Wyverly College from Old Kingdom.

5. Witch Girls has several schools for witches.

6. And I'd even go so far as to cite the women of Avalon that take Arthur after he is mortally wounded.

 

Maybe this isn't the example you would have chosen to use though and I'm open to hearing others.

Which misses the point of what was said - one similarity is nothing to write home about. The only similarities being generic fantasy tropes isn't either. How many other similarities are there between Harry Potter and WoT/SoT? Not counting generic fantasy tropes.

On this one example I'm not familiar with any of those stories really but considering the above female magic groups again its not just the many similarities but also their position and use within the plot.

RIP George Jones

 

Yeah I don't know why the number of examples would make a difference if none of them are exclusive to both series (meaning one was obviously borrowed from the other).

As I said before:

 

While many fantasy stories share universal myths and archetypes, SOT uses a number of quite specific items taken from the WoT that are not a dime a dozen in fantasy.

 

As Luckers said in an old thread:

 

The issue here, at least for me, is number and nature of the correlations between The Sword of Truth and the Wheel of Time. Their position and purpose within the plot are just too similar to result from the idea that both men drew from the same mythologies.

 

Add in to that his answers about RJ and fantasy in general, well it paints a pretty clear picture.

If he had never read WoT or had any knowlege of it how would he be "paying homage". No to mention he shows disdain for the genre as a whole.

 

As Terez said in a different thread:

 

Also, things like the fact that Goodkind insulted the rest of the fantasy genre while at the same time saying he doesn't read fantasy at all. He's oblivious.
 

 

As for the unique similarities that go beyond common tropes they have been well detailed in old threads. Just do a quick search and you will find them.

Even if he did take ideas from Wheel of Time (something I doubt) there is still a line between outright plagiarism and being inspired by someone else and trying to pay homage to their work.

 Which is exactly why the quotes provided and his attitude towards RJ is rather telling(as well as the publication dates). There certainly was no "trying to pay homage" involved.

 

Look here is the point.  While many fantasy stories share universal myths and archetypes, SOT uses a number of quite specific items taken from the WoT that are not a dime a dozen in fantasy. It is the sheer number of those type of similarities, that causes people to quite rightly call foul.

 

That said there have been others as bad if not worse. For example the first Shannara book is one of the most cold blooded rip offs of LotR there is.  As the fantasy editor and critic Lin Carter once said:

 

 

"the single most cold-blooded, complete rip-off of another book that I have ever read".^[28] Elaborating on his disapproval of the book, Carter wrote that "Terry Brooks wasn't trying to imitate Tolkien's prose, just steal his story line and complete cast of characters, and [brooks] did it with such clumsiness and so heavy-handedly, that he virtually rubbed your nose in it

 

 Think Goodkind inspires such rage because of who he is as a person and his attitude towrads RJ as much as the similarities between the two works(not to mention his writing isn't really up to snuff).

 however the similarities between SoT and WoT are less obvious than between WoT and Dune and none of it is so similar as to call it a ripoff,

 Uhhmm no. Drag up some old threads where it is broken down in detail. It is rather telling, again as is the quotes Terez provided.

This topic has been covered many times in many threads. Despite the obvious similarities that go far beyond regular fantasy tropes(and quotes Terez gave a page back that are rather telling.) To say they are mereley "the same genre" is a gross understatement and ignore the facts. Luckers also addresses the issues with the story itself on the previous page. Lastly Goodkind went so far as to mock RJ when he was dying from his heart issues. In fact it was so bad that RJ felt the need to respond in his last ever blog post. Goodkind is a ripoff, a hack and just an overall terrible human being.