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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

WoT If...Moridin Is a Double Agent?


Mashiara Sedai

Welcome back to "WoT If?"! A Memory of Light is only four weeks away, so I'm going to try to make these last few pre-release blogs meaningful. This week, I'm going to look into Moridin's character and motivation and try to come up with a few ideas about why he does what he does. As always:

 

Spoiler warning! This will include content from many books in the series, including Towers of Midnight, and speculation about A Memory of Light. Please read at your own risk.

 

Also, this WILL NOT contain spoilers from A Memory of Light's Prologue, Chapter 1, Chapter 2, Chapter 11, or Tor's daily previews. Please refrain from posting any spoilers from A Memory of Light in the comments section. The A Memory of Light spoiler discussion board can be found here.

 

There's a lot of background information about Ishamael/Moridin that's important to his reasoning. I'll try my hardest to be brief, but I don't know how much I'll succeed.

 

Ishamael was only half-sealed into the Bore and was able to touch the world occasionally. This small freedom left him "half-mad" and "less than half-human," according to Sammael (The Fires of Heaven, Prologue). I think there's also insinuation that he was mad before being sealed. However, since his full release (and his rebirth as Moridin), he seems more cunning and clever than insane. Or perhaps that's part of the insanity?

 

Does this madness aid his plans or hinder them? Are some of the contradictory actions we see him take a result of this lack of sanity? Or are his plans so well developed that he can pull them off despite having a scarred mind? He had 3000 years to influence the world and events, so I'm sure his ideas are perfectly planned, but there are inconsistencies.

 

One inconsistency of Ishamael's plans (or the Dark One's?) is his desire to kill, then not kill, Rand. I haven't gone through and counted how many times the orders have been flip-flopped, but we all know it's happened several times. Here are a few examples. The first is a Dream Egwene had:

The Dragon Reborn

Chapter 48, "Following the Craft"

 

He [Rand] had been sneaking through utter darkness toward Callandor, while all around him six men and five women walked, some hunting him and some ignoring him, some trying to guide him toward the shining crystal sword and some trying to stop him from reaching it, appearing not to know where he was, or only to see him in flashes. One of the men had eyes of flame, and he wanted Rand dead with a desperation she could nearly taste. She thought she knew him. Ba'alzamon. But who were the others?

 

So, here, in book three, Ishamael wants Rand dead. Is that his own desire, or the Dark One's? Later, Sammael says to Graendal:

A Crown of Swords

Chapter 20, "Patterns Within Patterns"

 

"Perhaps you ought to reconsider what you think the Great Lord means about leaving al'Thor unharmed."

 

Now, Rand shouldn't be harmed. But it's changed once again by orders from Taim, Demandred, and Moridin to the Asha'man Kisman:

 

Winter's Heart

Chapter 22, "Out of Thin Air"

 

"Kill him," the M'Hael had ordered before sending them to Cairhien, but he had been as displeased that they were found out as that they had failed. Far Madding was to be their last chance; he had made that as plain as polished brass. Dashiva had simply vanished. Kisman did not know whether he had run or the M'Hael had killed him, and he did not care.

 

"Kill him," Demandred had commanded later, but he had added that it would be better they died than let themselves be discovered again. By anyone, even the M'Hael, as if he did not know of Taim's order.

 

And later still, Moridin had said, "Kill him if you must, but above all, bring everything in his possession to me. That will redeem your previous transgressions."

 

Now, it's okay to kill Rand. And once more there's a flip-flop when Moridin commands the other Forsaken:

 

Knife of Dreams

Chapter 3, "At the Gardens"

 

"The time and manner of al'Thor's death will be at my choosing. No one else."

 

 

"Al'Thor is mine. You will not harm him in any way!"

 

The last change must be because of Rand and Moridin's link. Moridin says later that he "could throttle Semirhage for what she did" (The Gathering Storm, Chapter 15, "A Place to Begin"), because Rand's lost hand has affected him as well. This is a major piece of evidence for the body-swap theory because it shows how much their link has turned physical.

 

What's the reasoning behind this inconsistency? As I said previously, it might be Ishamael's insanity. Whether or not he was technically the Nae'blis before, he surely had more authority than the others, and most likely had a hand in most of their plans (he did have 3000 years to organize and manipulate that the others did not). Or does this reflect a change of heart in the Dark One? That seems unlikely to me. Though Verin does say:

 

The Gathering Storm

Chapter 39, "A Visit From Verin Sedai"

 

"The Chosen are predictable, but the Great Lord is anything but. Even after decades of study, I can't be certain exactly what he wants or why he wants it. I only know that this battle isn't being fought the way that al'Thor assumes it will be."

 

Perhaps the Dark One is capable of changing his mind in quick succession. Maybe a lot has to do with the plans Rand was doing at the time. Naturally, the Dark One would want Rand dead rather than have him successfully remove the taint.

 

There are many, many times when Ishamael says Rand will serve him, even in death. But is that true? That may be a boast on the Dark One's part—trying to scare Rand into serving him willingly. In earlier blogs, we've talked a bit about Rand's soul—and other Heroes'—and whether they go to Tel'aran'rhiod right after death. If that is the case, Rand's soul wouldn't be available to the Dark One. If the Dark One isn't able to get his hands on the Dragon's soul if Rand dies, then he would definitely want Rand to serve him alive, if possible. But if there is no Dragon, the Dark One wins, so he could still want Rand dead, whether or not he can access the Dragon's soul. Logically, there's motivation for wanting to keep Rand alive and wanting him dead.

 

What of Moridin being the Dark One's champion? He seems to think he is, saying he and Rand/Lews Therin have fought thousands of times with the turning of the Wheel. But how much can we trust his reasoning? He is mad, and possibly deranged. Metal Head said,

 

"I do think that the Dark One has always had a champion, but it was a different soul every time. It would HAVE to be, because if one "soul" failed the Dark One, lost his "Last Battle" and consequently allowed the Dark One's prison to be re-sealed, that would mean that particular Nae'blis was a failure. Why would the Dark One keep tapping the same soul to be his Nae'blis when that soul has only ever failed to free him?"

 

This is a great idea! Why would the Dark One recycle a soul that failed him so miserably? Even with the Forsakens' constant scheming, they prove themselves weak and childish, after their own desires, not the Dark One's. Why would he want them to serve him again in the next Age? Although, maybe the Dark One doesn't have any of the power he claims. If Ishamael's soul is eternally bound to the Dark One the way the Dragon is bound to the Light, then the Dark One's control over events is a lot less than he boasts.

 

Brandon Sanderson said in an interview that, "Rand and Moridin are also frequently woven together in the Pattern." If that's the case, Moridin is eternally tainted by the Shadow. That means he was predestined to go to the Shadow during the War of Power. That means he was a bad guy before he even realized he was a bad guy. Keeping with the theme of the series, this doesn't sound right. Very few things in The Wheel of Time are black and white—no one is pure evil, no one is pure good. Each character has flaws and talents. Even the Forsaken aren't absolute Shadow; they do what they do out of selfishness, but not out of a desire to be evil. Because of this, I don't think Ishamael is eternally tainted. He has to be able to get salvation.

 

I don't know how popular the theory of Moridin returning to the Light is, but I think it's a real possibility because of that argument. It was logic that sent him to the Shadow to begin with (The Gathering Storm, Chapter 15, "A Place to Begin"). That same logic can bring him back.

 

And here's where it gets a little crazy. What if Moridin is the double agent? With his logic, he knows there needs to be someone on the inside, getting close to the Dark One, understanding the Shadow's ultimate goals. Now, with that information, he has been fighting Rand, but what if the fights have been for Rand's own benefit? Each battle, each struggle, has led to Rand being more in control, more sure of himself and victory. Even Rand sinking to his lowest and his use of the True Power led to his epiphany on Dragonmount in "Veins of Gold."

 

When Egwene stands up to Elaida they have a bit of an argument:

 

The Gathering Storm

Chapter 16, "In the White Tower"

 

"'As the plow breaks the earth shall he break the lives of men, and all that was shall be consumed in the fire of his eyes,' " Egwene said. " 'The trumpets of war shall sound at his footsteps, the ravens feed at his voice, and he shall wear a crown of swords.'"

 

Elaida frowned, taken aback.

 

"The Karaethon Cycle, Elaida," Egwene said. "When you had Rand locked away to be kept 'secure,' had he yet taken Illian? Had he yet worn what he was to name the Crown of Swords?"

 

"Well, no."

 

"And how did you expect him to fulfill the prophecies if he was hidden away in the White Tower?" Egwene said. "How was he to cause war, as the prophecies say he must? How was he to break the nations and bind them to him? How could he 'slay his people with the sword of peace' or 'bind the nine moons to serve him' if he was locked away? Do the prophecies say that he will be 'unfettered'? Do they not speak of the 'chaos of his passing?' How can anything pass at all if he is kept in chains?"

 

This exchange might seem off topic, but it shows that everything Rand has done has been the Pattern's purpose, including fights with the Shadow, namely Ishamael. Ishamael had to know each battle was doomed, since Rand was fated to at least survive until Tarmon Gai'don. So, why did he continue with these plans to kill Rand? Because each one ultimately helped Rand. I think Ishamael is going to be important to the Light's victory, and I think he's already aware of what he must do.

 

As I said, we only have a few more weeks before we know for sure. That's all for this week; I'm looking forward to the comments on this one. Thanks for reading!




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Yes, I remember that Rand seriously intended to slay the DO but he was the Dark Rand back then and I'm not sure we can trust his words. I expect him to be generally wiser now or to become wiser in the future, when he somehow finds missing data.

 

When I think about Fain being the young DO, I try to imagine Rand becoming the Creator. And... nope. It seems inappropriate to me.

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What if... well.. although this is a what if, it is a very distinct possibility, or i might just have missed something that would make this impossible, but what if Rand actually ends up converting to the shadow right after Tarmon Gaidon as the madness gradually drives him into that position, and Moridin converts to the light? If that does happen, Rand and Moridin could be the same entity in a way, but they 'take turns' at being the Dragon after each death. This would help explain their link, i think.

 

Note: when i say Rand i mean whoever he is being continuously reborn, like Ishamael.

 

And.... i just reached another point. If Ishamael is the same being as he was at previous Tarmon Gaidon's, then, taking the opposite approach to someone earlier (sorry don't know who, just remember seeing it in this thread) then who is Rand? I know he is basically Lews Therin Telamon reborn, but who was Lews Therin the resurrection of? sorry if i'm rambling a bit, but i hope you can understand what i mean.

 

I just had another thought. If the theme of balance is anything to go on, then, if Moridin were to turn to the light, Rand would have to turn to the darkness? I (personally) think that this might open up trains of thought that might not have been explored before. Or at least not posted.

 

As a possible scenario, i think that if Moridin does turn to the light to help Rand, I think that it would be something like in one of Egwene's tests she passed to become an accepted in the WT, except where Rand defeats the Dark One, but the taint has finally driven him mad and he has to use all his concentration to keep himself sane, and he asks Moridin, instead of Egwene (like in the test) to take the dagger from him and to kill him, Rand thinking that him dieing:

1. would stop him from becoming another version of the DO,

or

2. would keep him from the DO and the madness. (Same sorta thing)

Anyway, say that Moridin does kill Rand, the DO would claim him in death, as he said he would, therefore Moridin becomes 'Rand', and vice versa in the next age of the dragon, this would explain their link, and exploring the possibility that if Rand dies so does Moridin, and that the Dragon was ment to kill the Naeblis, then it would work in accord with the pattern, as they would swap roles, because Rand was just a person to fulfill a role, and so was Moridin, but the role lives on without the person, if you understand me.

 

Sorry for the ramble, but i hope this helps.

 

Note: if any of this is answered by books 9, 10, 11 & 12, please tell me so as i have not yet read those books and i am speculating purely off what i have read here as well as the books prior to those i mentioned.

 

EDIT: thinking back on it, my comment has sorta gone off topic.

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to the two previous posts, I think both theories have been discussed often, and the general consensus is either "no way", or "I hope not".

 

If the Randland is supposed to be our world in the future/past, we can look at out own mythologies to support Rand not becoming the Creator, or Fain the DO. In all of our myths, the gods come first, then the men. this means that a man cannot become the Creator, as he is already created. Question - If Rand has to become Creator because Fain becomes DO, what happens to previous Creator?

 

(Side Note - Piers Anthony, Incarnations of Immortalilty gives an interesting look at men assuming the mantles of deities)

 

As for Rand and Moridin switching sides, I highly doubt it would happen as you theorize, Drakinora. However, as per my previous posts, I DO believe that they can switch sides, just not now. Perhaps before VoG and the epiphany would have been the best time. Also as posted, I do not believe the DO can simply 'claim' a soul that dies, especially ta'veren Heroes. (Many theories on this).

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@Tsukibana

I know the discussions of that theory and I never considered Rand becoming the Creator, what I wanted to say was just to compare the impossibility - as I see it - of Fain replacing the DO to the parallel yet absurd concept of Rand becoming the Creator :)

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I have nothing new to contribute since last week. With that being said, I don't care who ends up on what side, I'm going to Taco Bell!

 

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On the Sammael -issue, why he helped Rand? 

What occured me after TOM: In FoH Lanfear went to Finnland and she is seen again as Cyndane in tPoD. In CoS Moridin saves Rand's ass.

 

Moridin had to pay something for Lanfear - the Finns don't give anything for free. Whether he made a binding promise to Finns that he would save Rand's life once or if he had to return to Randland to do it and come back as he had done it or if he promised to keep him alive until the LB is questionable, but that seems most likely reason. (Why would he want to kill Rand during the first books and then suddenly decide to keep him alive. Yeah, the balestreams touched / killing Rand doesn't mean victory for the Shadow are also good options. Now Moridin feels what Rand feels and thus doesn't want harm to Rand and is really cute, but that shouldn't interest the DO. And if killing Rand isn't the key to victory, how come Moridin realised it just now, especially if the fight has been going for ever)

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Mashiara Sedai

Posted

You make a good point, Sakke.  What was demanded of or given to Moridin when he went to the Finns?  If he went in by the doorframe ter'angreal, he would have been given three answers.  If he went through the Tower, he would have had to bargain for Lanfear... or rather, bargain for a way out, since Lanfear was already dead by that point, right?  The Finns killed her accidentally, but Moridin still went looking for her?  Was he there while they killed her?  If she was killed before, the Dark One should have been able to access her soul without Moridin going to the Finns at all.  Perhaps they killed her after he left, and they had her hidden while he was there?  Either way, Moridin went to the Finns (we're assuming), so they may have given him answers/gifts.  

 

Another thing you said got me thinking.  You said that the Moridin/Rand link shouldn't interest the Dark One, but if the Dark One is really intent on killing Rand, he could kill Moridin.  I think it's implied that if one dies, the other will as well.  I'm sure the Dark One knows about the link, and I'm sure he has plans for it--if he didn't make Moridin do it in the first place.  So, that could be the plan, the Dark One can kill Moridin at the Last Battle, and Moridin would willingly give up his life, killing Rand as an after-affect.

 

It may be a stretch, but it's something to think about.

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@mashiara

what makes you think moridin went to finnland? the finn may just as easily, have killed lanfear, and then moridin had her resurrected... infact, i dont see how(or rather why) he would have gone to finnland to collect lanfear only to kill her and resocket her soul into another body...

 

moraine said that asking questions about the DO was dangerous... and lanfear did have the black cord to the DO. so i assume that was what caused the door to melt, and, i highly doubt she lived long... moraine likely asked to "leave" but failed to specify when, or in what condition... lanfear aparently, didnt.

 

rand and moridin are sharing similar traits since their strange bonding... but i dont think this extends to, if one dies, both die... it might, but i see no evidence for that.

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Mashiara Sedai

Posted

Moiraine says, "A man was there once, when they woke me. He said I was not the one he wanted" (Towers of Midnight, Chapter 57, "A Rabbit for Supper").  It was assumed to be Moridin looking for Lanfear.

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That man was Slayer that went to get Lanfear, because it is mentioned in a POV of him. Moridin never went near the Finns.

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Mashiara Sedai

Posted

Where is Slayer's POV that says that?  I can't recall.  Is that when he disappears into the Tower in the Wolf Dream and Birgitte tells Perrin not to follow?

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That one might be in off limits territory. Slayer didn't have a pov until winter's heart. But he had a pretty extensive one in some of the newest material.

 

 

Also, its seems like Moiraine would at least recognize both Luc Mantear, and Isam. Luc, at least, would be something she would see as totally reasonable to discuss with Thom.

 

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What if in order to remake the DO's prison takes the Melding of booth sides of the OP and the TP?

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I recall that it was mentioned somewhere that it was Stayer that went to the finns. Moraine might have recoginized Luc as her relitive, which he appeared in emonds field, but not Isam, which he appeared in TA. Moraine never met Lan's cousin, Malkier was destroyed before the Aeil war. Might have seen a family resemblance to Lan.

 

Also,loosely on the main subject, we've seen glimpses of most of the forsakens' lives during AL, Lanfear opened the bore,Semerhaig was a doctor, Ishy a philosipher, Rand remembers LT giving praises and honors to Samm. None of them were locked in the bore with the DO, noone remembering the DO...Meaning that after TG, the bore should be rebuilt anew, no hole or seals, noone locked in with the DO. So Moridin/Elam, and all the rest, were not born Forsaken. Each has mentioned the time that they pledged their souls. Even some as-to why. Grendaal wanted to be head of education, Demandred and Samm envy of LT, Sem doing experements on people. Ofcourse, that would be after Lanfear drilled into the Bore. Her reason was jealousy of Illyana and her obsession with LT. That doesn't mean that their souls were not destined to become forsaken. Rand had to follow he destiney to get where he is now. Guess I'm rambling now....

 

Moridin may have helped Rand progress on his way to TG, but Moridin want's the DO to win, break the wheel of time and forever end the turning. The other Forsaken want power under the DO, Moridin wants the end, oblivion.

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P.S.

I love this blog and everyone's theories. You all have great ideas and make the antisapationfor last book so much sweeter! Can't wait for the discussions for after. Like, basking in the after-glow!

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thanks for the evaluation, tsukibana. Unfortunately, i can no longer post in this topic, because i still haven't read the 9th+ books and have no idea what you're talking about. =D

 

Which for me, really sucks. ^_^

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What if in order to remake the DO's prison takes the Melding of booth sides of the OP and the TP?

 

if the TP is the DO as lews suggests... "it's him!"... i dont see how you could use the DO against the DO... seems kinda contradictory...

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Mashiara Sedai

Posted

What if in order to remake the DO's prison takes the Melding of booth sides of the OP and the TP?

 

if the TP is the DO as lews suggests... "it's him!"... i dont see how you could use the DO against the DO... seems kinda contradictory...

 

Robert Jordan said, "No, the Dark One is not pure True Power."  So I think Lews Therin realized it was the POWER of the Dark One, not necessarily the Dark One himself.  It's a fine distinction, but there is a difference between the two.

 

Also, I agree that Moiraine should have recognized Luc, and Isam as well.  Nynaeve said Slayer's Isam form looked like Lan.  Moiraine would have said something if the man had looked like Lan.

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@ paul

Rand, Perrin, Egee, and even Nyn comment on the striking resemblance of Isam to Lan. Not to mention that the scene where slayer flees to the tower of ghenji is in TSR, which would indicate nothing more than that Slayer has access to Finnland.

 

I will agree on the point that the Foresaken all turned during the previous age, and are currently working with the same souls, if not bodies.  I mentioned last week that I don't believe the DO has access to the souls of the world in the ages where he is completely sealed, because he is outside of-and thus exerting no influence over-the pattern.  There will always be enough selfish goons in the world that the DO wouldn't need to try to preserve his following for the next round.

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It is mentioned by his inner thinking when he admits GOING IN TO GET SOMEONE FROM THE TOWER. Also, to make it complicated, the scene where we learn that Moiraine is alive has the man's description seeming to have elements of BOTH of Slayer's personas while he was in the Tower, making me think it was another person. Moiraine would not have recognized him because of this. Also the description of Moridin does not put him in the Tower of Ghenjei, and the reason is that his soul is connected to the DO, which would have made it dangerous for him to go, being Nae'blis and all. This makes Slayer a VERY complicated character to work out. I am doing a re-read at the moment and am at PoD, will post when I come across it. Can't remember, except to know it is in the next few books.

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It was a revelation that totally shocked me at the time when I realised what happened, and surprised at the shock it caused by me posting:D

 

This is so much fun!!!!! Even when I get it wrong!!!!!!

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All I am saying is that the books are about balance and what better way to keep the balance than to use the DO's own power along with the other to seal him away

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Mashiara Sedai

Posted

Demonchild, I agree.  I think that's what Rand's plan is, to use the True Power, rather than saidar and saidin, to touch the Dark One and hold him in place.  Lews Therin says that he used saidin to touch the Dark One during the sealing, so Rand knows he has to use something to hold him--and he won't want it to be the One Power because he'll be afraid they will get tainted again.  However, I think this desire to use the True Power will be Rand's downfall.  I don't think it will work the way he thinks it will because it is the Dark One's own power.  Perhaps after this mistake, saidar and saidin linked can protect one another if used together.

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