I think that a turned Ishamael makes sense, and would explain how he

had the cojones to declare for the Shadow while standing in the Hall of Servants. However, the limit on knowledge of the 13x13 wasn't limited, unless the Mistress of Novices has access, because it is she who revealed that to

Egwene during her Testing. (It was Sheriam, wasn't it? I have no sources atm).

I was under the impression that Elan was the most "dangerous" Forsaken, and the most trusted, because he did not really do it for profit or gain.

He think he had concluded that as time pass, the number of times the Dark One try to break free reach infinity and thus the odds that one of the times the Dragon (or whoever is fighting) will fail also reach infinity. It was basicly just a matter of time until the Dark One won.

Why prolong the fighting, the suffering and the agony?

Checking this against the WoT-wiki I find this almost word for word: wot.wikia.com/wiki/Ishamael

"He was unique among the Forsaken as being the only member of the group who did not join for the promise of power or immortality (at least not per se), but because his logic concluded that the Dark One must inevitably win against the Dragon, and therefore the only path was to join him and rule for a time."

I don't think so. A turned person is easily recognizable looking him in the eyes. I know Rand would have noticed this if it was true.

Moridin isn't like the other Forsaken because he isn't evil as they are. I've had this conversation many times, and I still maintain that Ishamael is not a bad person in his core. He is a victim of sheer logic. It's mentioned more than once through the series that he turned to the shadow because his philosofy and logic (that the Wheel would turn endlessly and the Last Battle would happen once and once again until the DO wins and breaks the Wheel, ending time) led him to an unquestionable resolution: that the Shadow would eventually win, sooner or later. Once under the Shadow he gets entangled like everyone else, but he doesn't fight for evil, he fights for inevitability.

As for the Aes Sedai going to the Black Tower, I don't think there's a single passage on the book that sais AS consider men channelers as Shadow. They persecution of the male channelers is fueled only by the fear of madness. They were reckless in going there thinking it all would be so easy, but they didn't have reason to believe the BT was Shadow-controled.

I think one way to answer your first two questions is to look at the Shadowspawn. We learn in MoL that the trollocs and Myrdrall used to be men and the dark hounds used to be wolves. Trollocs and Myrdrall were apparently created by experiments (I forget by whom - don't have the book in front of me) and we can surmise that the dark hounds were created the same way. The dark hounds appear to be the strongest and hardest to kill of the creatures and we know that wolves are on the extreme "anti-shadow" side of the coin. There is also the Red Veils. It's a pretty good assumption that the majority of Aiel men who could channel chose (passionately) to go fight the Dark One (though there are some among them that were truly evil). From the little we saw of them, they were all strongly dedicated to the Shadow.

It makes sense that these behaviors would be easily observed by the Sisters (and anyone else who cared about such things) over the centuries.

I think it's pretty well clarified by the end of AMoL that the process of "turning to the shadow" is actually removing the influence of the creator from the person (similar to how in Rand's 'perfect' world he removed the influence of the dark one). Without that influence, all of the person's other attributes are still the same, they just no longer have any desire to be or do good.

The reason that people who were strong *for* the light are then strong against it is because those were the people with real strength of character, determination, etc. After being "turned" all of that still remains, just lacking the impetus to strive for the light.

Basically we have a statement that says "Those who were strongest for the light became the strongest for the dark after being turned".  That A implies B does not always mean that the inverse of A implies the inverse of B; thus, it's not necessarily valid to say that "Those who were not strong for the light would not be strong for the dark".

I don't think Moriden was ever Turned; I think he did it of his own choice.  It is pretty clear that those who had to be Turned generally are less effective.  In the world RJ created you have to have some influence both ways to be complete; that's why the dark one couldn't be destroyed.  I think that the ones forcibly Turned were less capable because they lacked that impetus to the light just like the ones in Rand's 'perfect' world were not themselves without any impetus toward evil.

i think even your opening paragraph is a spoiler. if i hadn't read amol yet, i would be sooooo pissed off. it is the first thing that caught my eye when i came onto this site.

.., he fights for inevitability. 

Why do you resist, Mr. Anderson?

 

 

.., he fights for inevitability. 

Why do you resist, Mr. Anderson?

Haha that was so good.

Well, the 'rating' issue doesn't bother me. We all know lots of people, and some we regard more highly than others, whether it be for their honesty, charity, integrity, etc. If everyone we knew got turned, it would be obviously apparent that the people we held in the highest regards were now the worst of the lot. I don't think you have to quantify it. If the most honest person became a congenital liar, and the most compassionate became a sadist, while on the other hand the guy that cheats a little on his taxes just starts stealing from his employer, the pattern would be pretty clear.

OK, it's been a while since I spouted a theory, but I'll just throw it out there. I'll assume that history doesn't repeat itself exactly, ie. that last Third Age the Dragon Reborn was really Rand Al'Thor. If differences are possible, perhaps Ishamael was a Dragon that failed in his epiphany. (However that'll work out with there still being a world I haven't quite figured out yet.) Possible "proofs": All the above, plus his seeming obsession with TP; He has become darkness himself. He thought himself the DO, and Rand (possibly) associates himself with the Creator. One more point: at the end of ToM, the Dark prophecy references the Lord of the Evening. Perhaps Ishamael, as a mirror to Rand? Just thinking

I dont have the books in front of me, but one of Graendal's POV's kind of discounts this theory I think. While explaining to Moridin how Rand's destruction of her palace by balefire would pain him, she comments in her head that Moridin was similarly pained as he slowly killed his conscience in service to the DO (whereas others such as Semi were already corrupt). It seemed to me that Moridin, the logic guy, thought it through and came to the conclusion that the DO was where to throw his allegiance...and then began a lengthy process of becoming more and more comfortable with the shadow. To me, that is what makes the character so original and so powerful. For him to be turned would be to ruin him.

I agree with Elysium about that point and there is also a hint from Lanfear (whatever her new name is) that shows Moridin was not likely turned.  It's in her conversation with Perrin in AMOL when they are discussing the red-veiled Aiel.  She mentions that she never was into the whole 13x13 turning trick because it takes away your creativity and drive, you're left sort of an automaton--still having some same characteristics you had from before but seemingly decreased in elan vital.  (speaking of elan vital, I wonder if Mori's name "Elan Morin" might mean something like "energy of death" or something like that...)

   Anyway, my point is that if she was on a rant on this subject as she seemed to be, and seeing that she is a vindictive and spiteful person, then if there were a Forsaken who had been "turned" she likely would have made a snide comment about them at that point in the converstation.  It may seem like a small amount of data to go on, but I really think that with what we've seen of Lanfear she can be counted on to make detractive statements about people when she's ranting, as she did so many times about LT and others.

    That being said though, I did find this a very entertaining and thought provoking article and worth looking at.  It wasn't until you got me thinking here that I spotted this particular fact.