[BASIC/STANDARD] Warcraft: War of the Ancients Mafia - GAME OVER, MAFIA WINS

[Lenlo]

One thing we need to keep in mind imo, is if Cass is mafia, then the entire mafia team also has access to Cory who  ive been told is pretty good at this game.

[Celeste]

 

 

All of Celeste's posts since the flip last night.

 

Ok. Sorry I haven't been here in a while. Zander pushed Lenny/me a lot which makes me think we were his scape goats. I also wanted to say earlier that Csarmi town read Zander before scum reading him I believe.

 

 

This to me reads as "See Wish and I can't be scum since Zander was making us his scape goats". First off I believe that was true of Wish. He didn't spend as much time on Celeste doing it. The " a lot " is a stretch for her unless I'm remembering wrong. Overall this post could be null to scum.

 

 

3-4 mafia for 13 players? Agreed or Disagreed

 

 

Null statement focusing on mechanics.

 

 

 

Kind of not feeling good on Kaylee with how much Zander said they are mind melding.

[v]Kaylee[/v]

 

 

Out of everything she could vote me for this seems like weak reasoning. At least go with the case Piazza made. Scummy

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ok. Sorry I haven't been here in a while. Zander pushed Lenny/me a lot which makes me think we were his scape goats. I also wanted to say earlier that Csarmi town read Zander before scum reading him I believe.

 

 

Kind of not feeling good on Kaylee with how much Zander said they are mind melding.

[v]Kaylee[/v]

 

I'm not opposed to this but I really need to figure you two out.

 

The vibe I got toward EoD was that Kaylee did a lot to get out of her lynch, and she did it well. This could come from Scum or Town Kaylee IMO. My gut feel later was that she could be scum bussing Csarmi and buddying me once Csarmi started going down (if I've understood correctly, this is in Kaylee's meta and something she does well). It was a strong feel and FWIW if she's the scum this fits with Shad's theory that I'm scum scapegoat in Zander's eyes. There were a couple of things she said that I thought were either indications that she was genuinely more confident that I was Town or buddying me. It freaked me out a little and I backed off to see how she'd respond today. I wish I could trust her, but I don't.

 

On the other hand, I always read Kay scum. She's impossible for me. She could be Town.

 

@Penny

I think you're probably Town, but I can't lock you in yet, and I'd feel better if I could. 

 

1. Why are you pulling out Kaylee in particular? IMO he mentioned mind-melding much more noticeably with Laine. 

 

2. What do you make of Nolder, Lenlo, Pral? 

 

 

 

General thought: If there is a Godfather, it's probably not Wish.

 

Unless you think Zander hard busses his GF on day 1.

 Also, love the hard work you put in last night but we have to reconsider EoD in light of confirmed competing scum trains.

 

blue was @ Laine btw

 

I can see Zander hard bussing GF D1, for sure.

 

Where are you at on Nolder and Pral?

1. Laine seemed to have some reservations to Zander saying they are mind melding I believe. Kaylee didn't have any hesitant thoughts at all to it.

2. Pral I have been suspicious of. This feels like his scum play.[\b] Nolder needs to be looked at closely today. Lenlo is still iffy because he tunneled me most of yesterday. Didn't seem to be looking elsewhere.

 

 

 

OK so you vote me for weak reasoning. While explaining that reasoning you say the bold. Wait what?! If your feel he's on his scum game and is scummy why not vote there? It would make more sense. Why vote someone who "mind melded" with a known scummy over someone you feel is scummy and on their scum game? Really scummy.

 

 

 

 

 

1. Laine seemed to have some reservations to Zander saying they are mind melding I believe. Kaylee didn't have any hesitant thoughts at all to it.

2. Pral I have been suspicious of. This feels like his scum play. Nolder needs to be looked at closely today. Lenlo is still iffy because he tunneled me most of yesterday. Didn't seem to be looking elsewhere.

I like red from you. Shows you're thinking and paying attention.

That's pretty much my D1 if people want me to provide some facts later on with my gut reads.

  

 

What about what's happened D2, besides what I've just pointed out.

 

 

 

I need to look into Turin a bit more. I believe a clue could be in his posts. I'm on my phone though.

 

 

 

Still interested in hearing this.

 

 

 

 

I couldn't finish ISOing Zander last night.

 

a) I had seen enough

b) I was tired af

c) Sooh was going to bed and I wanted cuddle tiems

d) I was kinda hoping a vig would shoot Zander so I wouldn't have to continue

 

Good shot, vig. That was never a SK because a scum went down already, outed doctor, the scums would shoot the doctor, so you know you have a free shot on obvious townies like myself.

 

Ergo, we have a lock clear vigilante.

This isn't really clear to me since the SK would still have to get rid of mafia to win. Idk what basic setup is on DM. So I just might be blabbering.

Seems clear but OK. Null statement.

 

 

  

@Cass will get to your question once I get on laptop.

 

 

Look forward to it. (Another promise of work. I'd null unless she doesn't do it).

 

 

Anyways I really should sleep now.

Nothing here but it was another of her posts so I added it.

 

  

 

 

 

IMO put Shad and myself on Ignore mode when you do re-reads.

 

Those people should be blue.

 

Nolder.

 

 

Pizza, I'm going to be honest and say it's posts like this of yours and Cory's that freak me out. I have you Town, but it's a silly move to ever put you blue IMO.

 

What's do you actually mean by 'Nolder'?

 

It's a silly move to say that certain players can never be blue.

 

Context, Cass. Nolder begrudgingly admits I'm not the top suspect.

 

I'm blue. Deal with it.

I'm going to be honest here, if I heard anybody say that on my home site I would place my vote ASAP. It's pretty pingy to me but not sure how other sites handle such statements.

Possibly an attempt to fling dirt piazzas way.

 

 

  

 

Feel free.

i was just stating that. The rest of my statement was me not knowing how it applies here but just saying it's odd. Laine I need to sleep.

Backs off.

 

 

  

Oh gosh I remember the last game I lost it in as town now. Yeah, I will link it once I'm on a laptop.

Again doesn't say much unless she doesn't follow through.

 

 

Overall not a good look IMOH. A lot of null but some scummy stuff as well. Considering I expected her to step up her game I'm not impressed. Guess we'll see what she had to say when she's back online. I could switch my vote to her at this point.

 

 

Agreed with the underlined parts.

 

As for Penny's vote on you, it makes more sense to me than a possible vote on Pralaya, Nolder, or Lenlo, because there is vague reasoning. She said that she needs to look into it. Of course, this has to happen, but I think that her voting someone that 'mindmelded' with scum makes sense for her over voting someone whose play she thinks she knows about, but isn't sure about. 

 

I would like to hear her response about what she thinks Pralaya's scum meta is.

 

 

Turin's ISO leaves me unimpressed, he was pocketed by Zander big time. Shad was in his WTL a lot but I think he is slight town now. Kind of makes me think hypothetically what would a deep wolfing Shad look like? I felt like his points were wish washy in a way with his tunneling too.

Lassie, explain the green part?

 

I felt like his points for pushes was the result of tunneling which makes it wish washy to me.

[Lenlo]

So I realized after getting to page 20, theres no way im going to be able to finish this whole game doing this.

 

As such, im gonna try and go to EoD for D1 now and try and examine that along with all of D2.

[Celeste]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ok. Sorry I haven't been here in a while. Zander pushed Lenny/me a lot which makes me think we were his scape goats. I also wanted to say earlier that Csarmi town read Zander before scum reading him I believe.

 

 

 

Kind of not feeling good on Kaylee with how much Zander said they are mind melding.

[v]Kaylee[/v]

 

I'm not opposed to this but I really need to figure you two out.

 

The vibe I got toward EoD was that Kaylee did a lot to get out of her lynch, and she did it well. This could come from Scum or Town Kaylee IMO. My gut feel later was that she could be scum bussing Csarmi and buddying me once Csarmi started going down (if I've understood correctly, this is in Kaylee's meta and something she does well). It was a strong feel and FWIW if she's the scum this fits with Shad's theory that I'm scum scapegoat in Zander's eyes. There were a couple of things she said that I thought were either indications that she was genuinely more confident that I was Town or buddying me. It freaked me out a little and I backed off to see how she'd respond today. I wish I could trust her, but I don't.

 

On the other hand, I always read Kay scum. She's impossible for me. She could be Town.

 

@Penny

I think you're probably Town, but I can't lock you in yet, and I'd feel better if I could. 

 

1. Why are you pulling out Kaylee in particular? IMO he mentioned mind-melding much more noticeably with Laine. 

 

2. What do you make of Nolder, Lenlo, Pral? 

 

 

 

General thought: If there is a Godfather, it's probably not Wish.

 

Unless you think Zander hard busses his GF on day 1.

 

Also, love the hard work you put in last night but we have to reconsider EoD in light of confirmed competing scum trains.

 

blue was @ Laine btw

 

I can see Zander hard bussing GF D1, for sure.

 

Where are you at on Nolder and Pral?

 

 

 

1. Laine seemed to have some reservations to Zander saying they are mind melding I believe. Kaylee didn't have any hesitant thoughts at all to it.

 

2. Pral I have been suspicious of. This feels like his scum play. Nolder needs to be looked at closely today. Lenlo is still iffy because he tunneled me most of yesterday. Didn't seem to be looking elsewhere.

 

 

Oh Penny, what am I going to do with you??

 

1. Ok, good point. Why is this enough to vote? Have you got anything else?

 

2. Give me examples of how Pral's play feels scummy to you. Explain as much as you can.

 

 

While we're at it, please find me some examples where you've cracked under pressure when Town. 

 

 

 

 If you're Town, I feel I intuitively get you now. I can't fully trust that yet though, I haven't seen all of your content and I haven't seen you scum :P

 

 

 

 

*snipped*

*snipped*

1. It just felt right in a way. I just feel like Kaylee has more wolf equity with her talking of Zander in a way than others.

 

2. I really can't explain gut vibes well, you just have to believe me on them.  http://www.quicktopic.com/51/H/Ft5AzhkhYF4W I don't remember where it got rough but it was a horrible loss of temper for me.

 

 

Celeste: I'd like you to dig into this for me (blue parts).

 

Shad: What theory are you talking about here (purple part)? (I think this is what Cass wrote)

 

Cass: The part in red I've highlighted is really pingy to me. I don't know what to do with it. Please explain it and what your current read of Kaylee is. 

 

In Shad's post? Or something else. This isn't quite clear to me.

[Lenlo]

So I lost the latter half of this second part, up to page 20, to cloudflare. Luckily I was keeping some of it in a notepad.

 

 

#206 Shad explains his posts. Kinda weird, but its not unexpected of Shad.

 

#208 Kaylee agreeing with Pizza.

 

#209 More Cass. Already asked the question Shad asked Laine apparently, responds to Shad differently to how she handled Zander imo. Looks like she is turning some of it back on him. Refuses to answer Nolders question. Unvotes Celeste cause she apparently forgot she voted her in the first place? Its barely ben 24 hours!

 

#215 Kaylee says Cass isnt being as reserved as she is when scum, that shes trying to figure things out. Explains her meta read on me, but doesnt delve that deeply into anything.

 

#216 Kaylee responds to Nolders question.

 

#217 Celeste responds to a Pizza post, but only with "Noted"

 

#218 Wish reappears right at the same time Celeste does. Is that odd?

 

#222 Wish responds to Nolder Question

 

#225 Wish, who said we should jus trust her on Celeste before, now gives raisons. Wonder what prompted this. Call BS on the intro post "tone", using a simple statement of fact as a towntell. Says that shes only jokey as scum, yet passes off her joke vote as "Its not done with a flippant attitude". Honestly, its pretty poor reason to townread someone.

 

#231 Pizza hits the nail on the head

 

#232 Wish says she hates relying on gut stuff, forced behavior or kind of off tone, yet she just town read Celeste because of tone. WTH? 

 

#234 Wish "I gut read people I know well", did you just say you hate relying on gut stuff? 

 

#239 Wish "Im looking for unnatural, forced behavior." What. The. Hell. Look at post 232, 234 and 239. She says one thing then immediatly contradicts it.

 

#248 Wish is basically telling me to explain Pizza and Pizza to explain me. She avoiding work or trying to get info?

 

#249 Is this post forced? Cause it feels that way. Forced distance.

 

#251 Theres one post I cant read into... WTH Wish.

 

#256 What?

 

 

Early game, Wish felt alot like she wasnt actually doing work. She also contradicted herself alot.

 

[unvote][v]Wish[/v]

 

Pretty good place to go atm before I jump into the EoD for D1 and D2

[Songstress]

OFFICIAL VOTE COUNT:

Kaylee (1): Celeste
Pral (3): Kaylee, Laine, Wish

Wish (1): Lenlo

Not voting (5): Shad, Pral, Nolder, Cass, Pizza

----------

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch
Day 2 deadline is Monday, January 11 @ 9 AM MST (11 AM EST)
http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20160111T09&p0=197&msg=End+of+Day+Two&font=cursive&csz=1

[Lenlo]

[unvote]

 

While catching up realized from VC that tinfoil on Wish was stupid. How she dealt with the Csarmi lynch, getting on him and then going goodnight when there was easily still time to make someone else happen looks good for her. Cass was on there first, the VC being Cass, Wish, Kaylee, but I just cant stop tinfoiling her as the deep wolf.

[wish-tree]

Lenlo, that's the same exact argument that Zander used regarding me.

 

I'm pretty sure you can read what I wrote in response to his case on me, which was built off what he saw as contradictions in my early game meta. We've gone over this.

 

I said that I hate using gut reads, but they work, especially for people I know. You're taking my posts and seriously not trying to take in consideration what I was thinking at the time.

 

Early day 1 was really bad for me, as I didn't know the game had even started, and then had to catch up to lots of pages I'd missed.

 

Irt Celeste/me appearing at the same time, we're often on Skype on a regular basis, and finish talking/gaming before doing forum Mafia stuff. It's normal.

[wish-tree]

*facepalm*

 

Tinfoiling over the same things really bothers me.

 

Meh. Did I really contradict myself? I don't think I did.

 

[Songstress]

OFFICIAL VOTE COUNT:

Kaylee (1): Celeste
Pral (3): Kaylee, Laine, Wish

Not voting (6): Shad, Pral, Nolder, Cass, Pizza, Lenlo

----------

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch
Day 2 deadline is Monday, January 11 @ 9 AM MST (11 AM EST)
http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20160111T09&p0=197&msg=End+of+Day+Two&font=cursive&csz=1

[wish-tree]

Also, hi Lenlo.

 

I can't quote your posts. Tell me where you're at.

[Lenlo]

 

 

#2205 Wish Asks if Nolder would be willing to lynch Zander today, but she is sticking with csarmi. I skipped to this page, so cant remember what the pages before this one were like, but only wolves were one the chopping block really, so could be distance before a lynch.

 

#2207 Pizza points out a Nolder post, where he mentions that Nolder is apparently never lynching Csarmi, Zander or Laine. Is it just bad villaging that got Zander and Csarmi in there or is it defending a teammate?

 

#2210 Wish telling Kaylee to vote with her, Wishes, WTL pile. #2212 tells Pizza to as well. 

 

#2230 Villagery Laine post.

 

#2262 Cass, Wish, Kaylee on Csarmi first and then Wish disappears for the night. At this point its not clear if Zander would be lynched, so she could easily go after someone other than Csarmi. Dont see the Wish thing much anymore. Realizing I was tinfoiling there.

 

Pizza obv town jumping between Csarmi and Zander, who had no traction at this point.

 

At this point the only ones not voting are Csarmi and Celeste. Csarmi is flipped scum, while Pral is voting Kaylee. Odd choice with little to back it up. Im tempted to go for a Pral lynch today just to resolve his inactive butt, especially with this 2 scum down lead we have.

 

 

Thinking Pral, Nolder or Celeste are decent ones today. Ive started to have my doubts about Nolder, thinking that my stubborn read of him was just that, stubborn. With the reread I have had, what little there is, he actually hasnt stood out to me as much as I remember him doing.

 

Pral cause he hasnt done anything. Yeah, I get not having the motivation to reread this game, I had a sudden spurt of it and still couldnt get through more than like 40% of it. But common, we need something man. Really kinda wanna just resolve this slot and get it over with.

 

Nolder as I stated, on my reread he isnt sticking out to me as much as I thought he had. I think my read on him initially was fine, but after that once the game started to get out of hand I just got stubborn and lazy with regards to reading him.

 

Celeste just... nothing stands out to me as all that great. Yeah nothin overtly scummy on the reread, but nothing obv town like what Shad, Pizza and Laine have done.

[Lenlo]

*facepalm* Tinfoiling over the same things really bothers me. Meh. Did I really contradict myself? I don't think I did.

You did.

[Lenlo]

Lenlo, that's the same exact argument that Zander used regarding me. I'm pretty sure you can read what I wrote in response to his case on me, which was built off what he saw as contradictions in my early game meta. We've gone over this. I said that I hate using gut reads, but they work, especially for people I know. You're taking my posts and seriously not trying to take in consideration what I was thinking at the time. Early day 1 was really bad for me, as I didn't know the game had even started, and then had to catch up to lots of pages I'd missed. Irt Celeste/me appearing at the same time, we're often on Skype on a regular basis, and finish talking/gaming before doing forum Mafia stuff. It's normal.

Look, dead, I can sympathize. I can. But its a reread of a 165 page game that started barely a week ago. Theres gonna be some disconnect for how people were "Feeling" at the start of the game. This kinda defense is not that great. If I was still tinfoiling on you, this would not sway me at all.

[Lenlo]

dear*

[Lenlo]

Also you contradicted yourself within 4 posts. Not even talking about your meta, its there in writing.

[wish-tree]

Yeah, yeah. Not trying to sway you.

 

Just was kind of mad that this was still going on.

 

Aughhh

[Lenlo]

Also, hi Lenlo. I can't quote your posts. Tell me where you're at.

At this point I just finished reading EoD, though I gave up on notes cause I was running out of time before I slept. Gonna try and do D2 tomorrow if I have time. Im mostly trying to be not a complete waste of space this game, by trying to do /something/ before I die N2.

[wish-tree]

Meh

Saying that I was more of an analytical player than gut, and then tone reading people?

I do both. I start off with a gut read, then try to explain it to others. Then, as flips happen, my reads evolve as I analyze them.

 

Make sense?

[Lenlo]

Meh Saying that I was more of an analytical player than gut, and then tone reading people? I do both. I start off with a gut read, then try to explain it to others. Then, as flips happen, my reads evolve as I analyze them. Make sense?

Early on, it was pretty contradictory imo. Regardless talking about this is pointless 145 pages.

 

Since I havnt reread D2 yet, where do you stand atm? Why voting Pral and who else would yo ube willing to lynch today? Me, im not touching Laine, Shad or Pizza. If any of them are scum they deserve it this game.

[wish-tree]

You've played too much mafia when dear autocorrects to dead :P

[Lenlo]

You've played too much mafia when dear autocorrects to dead :P

I hit 4 years on this site the 21st of this month. :D

[Lenlo]

God I suck at this game if its been 4 years and im still this bad.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Trying to get the juices flowing again...

 

Turin's ISO leaves me unimpressed, he was pocketed by Zander big time. Shad was in his WTL a lot but I think he is slight town now. Kind of makes me think hypothetically what would a deep wolfing Shad look like? I felt like his points were wish washy in a way with his tunneling too.

Typically a waste of time to look at dead non-info role's posts. He died purely because he randed something the wolves needed to kill, and that was his most valuable move all game long.

  

 

But more likely I found 2 and then I also found 2 others. 50% is a bad score.

 

I need a dead scum today or I won't be that happy.

If you want to do it, let's start looking at the wagon. What do you think happened? Csarmi was a completely town led lynch which zander decide to join due to no other choice? If not, who in that csarmi wagon is scum?

 

 

Almost all of that wagon is lock clear. Me, Shad, Laine, Wish, Lenlo. Cass is a good tinfoil possibility. You can go there if you want. Zander was scum. That's 7

 

Let's discuss people not on the wagon.

 

Your game is superficially villagery but you're in the POE. Who besides you?

 

 

And this went silent during my brief return and leave. Anyways Lenlo if your cop why didn't you just investigate me? Instead of always voting me every chance you get.

 

I hate this post a lot, for the record.

 

Pizza, as town do you privately consider who might be town power roles?

 

Simple yes/sorta/no question.  Not looking for a detailed response.

 

No.

 

Village powers have a responsibility to act like villagers. When they don't, I lynch them unless their claim always resolves itself, or I truly believe the claim.

 

I also disbelieve claims a lot. Scum in the noose like to claim powers.

 

Act like a villager or die. Your claim kills you, is good enough for me, in the case of cop or doctor. But really, villagers who rand such roles need to scum-hunt or else they look like skating scums.

 

They also stick out enough that scums can generate cases on them, and speaking as someone who routinely does this kind of stuff as scum, if I KNOW you're a villager, and you're not hunting scums hard, I always suspect a villager power and usually shoot there. I am ridiculously accurate with my shots, typically killing village powers N1.

 

If I don't know you're a villager, then it often leads to detailed cases as to why you should die.

 

I need my teammates to be fully aware of this in the future. Play like a vanilla townie. You're not supposed to be handicapped by your power. In fact, with a Godfather, a seer scan can have a negative effect on the game. A guilty scan might lead to an analysis-free wagon on a scum, detracting from a wagon that developed naturally on a different scum, who might get away now because they distanced correctly. Scans are so detrimental to the town game sometimes. Granted they're usually good, but people RELY ON THEM too much.

 

It's good to play wise, strategically, knowing a cop is in the game, and to try to draw the NK away from the cop, but, relaxing and waiting for town power roles to solve the game for you, or forgetting to play core village fundamentals when you are a village power role is why I prefer vanilla games.

 

It's easier to hunt scum when EVERY villager is trying to hunt scum. Then you get fewer false positives as a result of analysis which factors in motivations such as trying to survive.

 

The Trying To Survive motivation factor is one a vanilla villager generally doesn't have.

 

In fact, village powers should welcome the murder- it means we aren't going to lynch you, and waste valuable time. Don't be afraid of that.

 

The survival instinct of a villager is not team-friendly. First goal is to lynch scums, but a high priority is also to make sure the scums find you to be threatening enough to eat their murders, as opposed to village lynches. If your only defense against the village lynch is your claim itself, you're doing it wrong.

 

This is in general. I'm accepting my larger share of the responsibility for pushing Turin and Lenlo. But my statements here about sticking to good villaging principles stand- you will get suss'ed less by your own village, and make it harder for the scums to pick you out among a crowd of vanilla villagers doing the work, if you behave exactly like a vanilla villager.

 

Having parts of your village team go easy on the scums because they're protecting the power they were randed, is problematic. What if the vanillas in your game are also having a rough time? Those are the games that scum teams win easily, because then not enough villagers are threatening to scums.

 

Scums lose games where villagers are mostly threatening to them, not partly. They can eliminate the threatening villagers or ignore them if there are only a couple in the game.

 

Villaging is much more about the team than individual powers. Rare is the game where a village power solved it by themselves or made a dramatic enough impact that it justified going easy on the scums for the crucial opening of the game.

 

On the other hand, a vanilla villager going hard in the paint, who lynches wolves, can draw murders away from town powers, or can continue lynching wolves once the town powers are targeted instead, and they already have the credibility they need to lynch their suspects if they got a couple of wolves down.

 

^Stream of consciousness reply.

 

I think I'll end it there. Remember, town powers should not handicap your game in any way. We allow it to be so. Make it harder for wolves to find you by acting normally, like you still have nothing to lose. Make it harder for your fellow villagers to screw up, by being yourself.

 

And then pizzaguys will have less to apologize for after the game.

 

Pizza knows he screwed up. Pizza kicks himself harder for these things than others ever will. Like, two dead wolves in a phase and I think I had a bad game now. That's where I'm at. That's a bad place for me to be, because then I just spent a couple of days not pushing wolves hard because I was sick to my stomach reading this game.

 

 

And this went silent during my brief return and leave. Anyways Lenlo if your cop why didn't you just investigate me? Instead of always voting me every chance you get.

This post bugs me. More now that I've reread it. It why even say this? We've discussed the GF angle already by this point. I get it's partly that he's been after her, but something about it just really bugs me. Maybe it's the "then I'd be clear" assumption to it added to the GF angle. Maybe it's the fact that earlier she said mechanics help her figure things out. If that's true then wouldn't your consider the possibility of a GF after the flips?

 

 

I had that exact same reaction while reading this, Kay.

 

This is something to say after the fact. If Celeste wanted to be investigated, she should have said so day one.

 

As it stands, Celeste should be investigated tonight, and any one shot JOAT roles with protective powers should protect our cop, (as if I have to remind anyone).

 

If she is the godfather, being cleared by scan this early (n2) is almost exactly as bad as being investigated as guilty, due to the wolves murder priorities. If she is scannable, then that's all we need left from the cop. If we lynch the scum roleblocker today, we should have one scan result to look forward to tomorrow, which is better than our current total of Zero. There is still some value in doing this.

 

 

 

 

But more likely I found 2 and then I also found 2 others. 50% is a bad score.

 

I need a dead scum today or I won't be that happy.

If you want to do it, let's start looking at the wagon. What do you think happened? Csarmi was a completely town led lynch which zander decide to join due to no other choice? If not, who in that csarmi wagon is scum?

 

I like this post from Pralaya, especially the underlined bit. Instead of asking Pizza about his thoughts, I would like to hear what you have to say too.

 

Irt that, my opinion is that Zander joined the wagon and then started to ISO csarmi to look like he had reasons to vote on the wagon. If there is another scum on the wagon, would it be tempting to join after Zander? Probably. But it would be obvious, wouldn't it?

 

Let's look at the case if one or more (depending on how many scum we have left) of csarmi's teammates was on the wagon before Zander was. Why would you, as a scum buddy, gun for csarmi even before there was much attention on him, unless you were intent on sacrificing him?

 

When csarmi claims, it reads as a 'give up play'. Was this planned by the scum team or not (see Pralaya's earlier suggestion about csarmi as a martyr), or was this done out of pure frustration by csarmi? 

 

It seems that Zander was not expecting to have to vote csarmi, and believed that his counterwagon on me could take off. According to Zander's behavior regarding csarmi, it does not appear that the Mafia team planned to sacrifice csarmi, and only did so because there was no other choice. If we analyze wagonomics, it's more likely for scum to be on the off-wagons or a later vote. 

 

Thoughts? Going to dig up the vote count from EOD1. 

 

And this went silent during my brief return and leave. Anyways Lenlo if your cop why didn't you just investigate me? Instead of always voting me every chance you get.

 

Hmm. I understand this question in terms of Celeste thinking that Lenlo was tunneling her. Also, this is a valid question for Lenlo, imo, but I think that often as cop, players will investigate those they are tinfoiling about instead of people they actually believe are scum, because they think they're right and there's no need to investigate (at least, this is what I often think, lol!).

 

 

What's to like about that question? If he doesn't take that ball and run with it himself? It gives the appearance of town solving while having no effect on the game.

 

People would do better not waiting for others to solve it for them.

 

I would have loved to see a case made on a wolf that I could sheep, and have a wolf be lynched today, so more people could get put in blue for endgame, depending on whether I believe it's not "desperation hard bussing" with an outed cop and dead doc.

[Askthepizzaguy]

 

My list is currently:

 

Lenlo/Pizza/Alanna

 

Shad/Wish

 

Celeste/Kaylee

 

Nolder

Pral

 

 

 

Lenlo* - Going with the claim for now. Pluses yesterday far outweighed the negatives.

 

Pizza/Alanna - Way more pluses than minuses in the notes, and both of them appear to be working hard to figure out where players are coming from and have put a large amount of effort in to solving the game. Any reservations I have at this stage plausibly stem from differences in our personalities/style of play, going to go on ignoring tinfoil here.

 

Shad - Huge effort looking into other players, and I've agreed with a large number of his posts. Still waiting on conclusions wrt Pral and response wrt his stance on Kaylee yesterday/today. Need to look more into his interactions with Zander. Some concerns of GOAT vs. TMI/pocketing WRT me.

 

Wish - So much Lenny, so much work. Her interaction with/approach to Zander seemed mostly genuine yesterday and I think her not voting him is more likely to be due to genuine hesitation/logic rather than deliberate avoidance because they were W-W. Zander's push on her also reads genuine to me - as in he wanted her lynched. Her wtl was the same as mine and liked her push on Pral/Csarmi to get more involved. Need to look into her reads of/reasons for voting Csarmi.

 

 

Which leaves me with PoE

 

Celeste/Kaylee - back and forth on these two and really cannot put one higher than the other right now.

Nolder/Pral

 

Kaylee - Early D1 really bothered me but I always read Kay scum. She's moving up for me for effort and conviction. Potential that she bussed Csarmi. Don't like wavering on me.

 

Celeste - Gut still says Town but it's not enough since I haven't seen her scum. Needs to do more work and try harder to explain where she's at. I can understand her vote on Kaylee, but it's not fleshed out. Need to check example of Town over defensive/lash out.

 

Nolder - D1 no scum-hunting, don't like excuse given for lack of activity, strongly disagree with his reads and case on me is terrible/reachy. Don't like the way he dodged my questions wrt the wording of his vote on Pral. Do concede he may be Town and is making more effort to be involved today.

 

Pral - Here because PoE, OMGUS, lack of involvement. Case on me a stretch/?foregone conclusion. No direct pressuring, just opinion. No real pressure on anyone else from what I've seen. Requires serious ISO.

 

 

 

I'm pretty happy with the town core, but tbqf I am feeling really uneasy right now. I'm not actually confident that any of the bottom four are scum.

 

Basically

 

Celeste (gut says Town)

Kaylee (others I trust say Town)

Nolder (showing more effort, potentially Town)

Pral - Why would a wolf push such a flimsy case on me?

 

If there's deep wolf, I'm leaning Wish/Shad

Understand your reservations on Celeste, Kaylee, Nolder

 

Need to hear more about Pral's flimsy case on you.

 

Why would a wolf push such a flimsy case on me? Yet Zander did.

 

Good reply.

 

 

Cory knows my soul and he will be able to help clear things up for you!!!!

Here's another case of Zander trying to discredit Cass's push. Sucking up to her mentor? More town spew imo.

 

Concur.

 

 

 

Zander: I don't know her well enough. Could or be coincidence? Perhaps. Hence the fair enough comment. It's possible. Do I suspect her enough to vote? Not at this time. It stood out, I said as much and she gave an explanation. I agree it's meh.

 

 

 

 

 

 

For one thing, Zander

I'm Lenny..

 

Secondly

Contradictions are not inherently scummy. I think you're trying too hard to pull at straws, but that in itself isn't scummy.

I clarified why I tone read and hate it. It works, so I do it. I'd much rather prefer to use my brain, but that often leads to WIFOM. Also, I'd like for a chance to use my brain, thank you very much. Going to reread the Shad bit, because I am not convinced atm.

I still want to town read you, but this kind of nitpicking/TMI makes me a little reluctant. I admit that there's some confirmation bias, because I have a tendency to town-read people who call me town.

 

Sorry my dear about the name mix up!!!

 

 

Thats the look on my face when I read this post....

 

Contradictions arent scummy??!!! My very first game, Cory got me a mentor ALOT was his name....and the first piece of advice to me was....look for contradictions they more often then not lead to Scum....its worked very well for my thus far!!!!

 

And elaborate on your grasping at straws/nitpicking and most important the TMI comments there Penny because imo they have 0 merit and are a poor look from you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

With that said, bye. *poofs*

Another tell for Celeste being town is her scum reading me. That's something I expect, because she's a lot more uncertain of herself as town and also absolutely can't read me. ;)

this is not true all the time and you know it.

 

Do you believe, even if it is inaccurate, that this is her honest opinion? You're saying she's remembering incorrectly or is lying deliberately or neither.

 

I believe this is her honest opinion despite forgetting that simple fact.

 

I want to know what you think of me, actually. And since I trust you so far, I would also like your gut reads.

(What works, works. Meh.)

 

I think your slight town so far. Although I have my reservations. Cass as slight town too. Shad feels iffy to me a bit. I want to hear more from Laine.

 

I actually have nothing on Shad so far. He hasn't appeared yet to talk to me, but what Pizza/Lenlo said about his claiming he has meta on other people was interesting to me. I'd be curious to know what meta he actually has.

Talk to me about Shad. Gut read?

 

Yeah, from reading his posts once I joined. They seem a bit forced. What reads do you have?

 

I'm liking Cass, you, Pizza, maybe Lainey.

Reservations on calling Shad town or scum until he comes back to defend himself.

Lenlo and Kaylee are slightly towny for now.

Other people need to stop ignoring me and talk to me.

 

 

 

Concerning reads...WHY???

 

I can go back and pull out single posts in isolation, if it tickles your fancy.

 

 

Yes it most certainly would!!!!

 

We are not the same person. Just because we hydra'd together doesn't mean anything :|

Again im sorry and Ill try to not mix you ladies up again (or at least not very often)

 

lololololololol

 

Did you mean Lenny is not town earlier?

 

 

 

 

Well as of now youre both in my top Scum reads so take from that what you will.....

 

Well your wrong first of all because your not telling me the reasons WHY first of all. I also want to know who you think Wish is? Lenny or Penny?

 

 

Soor if I dont take your word at face value there Penny. The unvote timing to pressure and reasoning are sticking out to me big time.

 

Why did he quote Kaylee at the top of this post? He never talks about Kaylee. It feels like he's trying to show that he's not the only player suspicious of Celeste. Again, looks like a serious attempt to pressure a town. In Zandermind it probably looks better to drag a town's "opinion" into the equation than a scum mate's. Not massively clearing, but not a bad look for Kaylee here.

 

Agreed.

 

 

 

 

 

@ Shad dude wth are you seeing with Csarmi man???!!! I dont get it....I mean not just a Town read but YOUR TOP TOWN READ???!!!?!?!?!? WTF

 

And also Alanna has your scummiest is also pretty bad imo.

 

Sorry brother not seeing either of those like at all!!!!!

Blue, consider it a call for the rest of you to town harder.

 

Red, my scum order was borderline arbitrary except for Turin being the least bad of the four, and I posted that prior to/still haven't finished absorbing Laine's most recent catch-up post(s?).

 

 

BLUE: Shad ok MAYBE you see something I dont.....but you damn well know NOBODY Towns harder then I do!!!

 

RED: No real scum reads at all then? Is that what youre getting at with that?

 

Zander legit annoyed that I find his scum mate townier than him. He accepts the read but grudgingly. I think it shows he was pretty willing to bus Salami from the start, which makes me think he'd be less aggressive towards his other partner(s).

 

Concur.

 

 

 

What would a Celeste Town flip make you feel about Wish Shad?

Very interesting.

 

This is why despite a couple of bad posts by Celeste, I'm not willing to put her at the front of the POE.