Dragons, replacements, and Sealing the Bore.

[Zorlon]

So both from in-book musings ont he game of Sha'Rah and out of book interviews with Jordan we can sfely conclude that had Rad fallen, someone else would have taken over his role as the general of the Light

 

However, the way n which Rand sealed the Bore in AmoL required some pretty specific things to have previously happened, and we can be safely sure almost all to all of the circumstances were things Jordan had intended.

 

So, had rand died in, say, Knife of Dreams, and Egwene had become The Dragon, how would she have been able to seal the bore?

 

Also, are there ever Dark Ages in which the previous incarnation of the Dragon had failed and no one following after had been up to the challenge? We certainly know the Dragon sometimes fails, and is even sometimes turned. But are the good guys ever mildly defeated?

[Sabio]

Problem is someone already living can't just become the dragon since LTT's soul would need to be reborn.  They would lack LTT's insight on what he did the first time.  Unless they were a channeler they wouldn't of been able to seal the DO prison.  Mat or Perin could of become a champion of the light but they would of been pretty limited in figuring out what to do.  Since they would need to use all three powers.  They would of lacked Rand's knowledge on things such as the true power.  With rand linked to Moridin had rand died  it's possible Moridin would of also.  So my guess is had Rand died a few possible outcomes could of been the new champion would of killed the DO thus dooming the world as Rand saw, died horribly, or managed another temp fix  somehow.

 

Rj's take (at least from my memory) is the light has been defeated  but the DO has never won.  Something like that.  We know from Rand's POV the DO idea is winning is not simply killing everyone.  He wants everyone siding for the light to lose hope and give up.  He wants people to beg for mercy and despair.  So had Rand died, the DO broke free and killed all the force of the light, the DO would not of felt like he won.

[Zorlon]

 

Problem is someone already living can't just become the dragon since LTT's soul would need to be reborn.  They would lack LTT's insight on what he did the first time.  Unless they were a channeler they wouldn't of been able to seal the DO prison.  Mat or Perin could of become a champion of the light but they would of been pretty limited in figuring out what to do.  Since they would need to use all three powers.  They would of lacked Rand's knowledge on things such as the true power.  With rand linked to Moridin had rand died  it's possible Moridin would of also.  So my guess is had Rand died a few possible outcomes could of been the new champion would of killed the DO thus dooming the world as Rand saw, died horribly, or managed another temp fix  somehow.

 

Rj's take (at least from my memory) is the light has been defeated  but the DO has never won.  Something like that.  We know from Rand's POV the DO idea is winning is not simply killing everyone.  He wants everyone siding for the light to lose hope and give up.  He wants people to beg for mercy and despair.  So had Rand died, the DO broke free and killed all the force of the light, the DO would not of felt like he won.

 

1: Not at all. According to Sanderson being The Dragon is just a job that anyone worthy of it could take up, Rand just usually gets first dips because he's born to be the hero. But sometimes he dies, or otherwise fails and the mantle falls to someone else.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt=%27dragon%20soul%27 Please see interview log #29

 

Also, according to Jordan, Rand is not always born to become the Dragon in every age. Always a hero, but sometimes one with a different role to play, see interview log #5

 

2: The way I read the books having Rand destroy the world while in the grip of Shadow Madness would have been a perfect win for the DO. After Rand's epiphany best that could be hoped for was a draw until the next round.

[Sabio]

  I know Rj has said LTT wasn't always good  as  Ishy wasn't always evil every age.   The title means nothing for Rand, since LTT was named the dragon  it was having LTT reborn soul that officially made him the dragon reborn.  But had say Logain just kept with the I am dragon reborn he would of failed miserably, or probably screwed the world over.  Never would of had the memories for the aiel, the borderland question,  etc...  So had Rand died, there could be another champion of the light but no LTT.  So Mat could of proclaimed  himself the next dragon had Rand died, bit it wouldn't of meant much. 

[Zorlon]

  I know Rj has said LTT wasn't always good  as  Ishy wasn't always evil every age.   The title means nothing for Rand, since LTT was named the dragon  it was having LTT reborn soul that officially made him the dragon reborn.  But had say Logain just kept with the I am dragon reborn he would of failed miserably, or probably screwed the world over.  Never would of had the memories for the aiel, the borderland question,  etc...  So had Rand died, there could be another champion of the light but no LTT.  So Mat could of proclaimed  himself the next dragon had Rand died, bit it wouldn't of meant much. 

I think this is the crux of our disagreement, my understanding has been that there are special properties which go along with being The Dragon. Properties such as LTT's abiility to know there was no around in the prologue of TEotW. And Rand's super powers in ToM.

 

Too, at least in The Age of Legends, being the Dragon was a mantle which could be bestowed upon somebody. Obviously Demandred would never have been worthy(though some people int he 3rd age thought it would go to him), but surely someone int he 3rd age would be worthy besides Rand.

 

Again, the Dragon isn't something anyone(even Rand) is born as, nor is it an empty title. There be powers there.

[Sabio]

But the main source  of Rand's powers was LTT's soul, his memories.  LTT was the dragon, so only someone with LTT's soul could be the dragon reborn.  Yes had Dem  been named the dragon, then next time Dem soul had been spun out, that guy would  of been the dragon reborn.  As far as I know the title dragon didn't grant one any special abilities, except the thing that come with a position of power. Since in the Age of Power  it was a title.   The fighting  in the sky  was when it  was announced to the world  he was here, but the moment he was born on the slopes of dragonmount he was the dragon reborn.  .  You can't be the dragon REBORN if you had never been the dragon in a previous turning.

[Zorlon]

But the main source  of Rand's powers was LTT's soul, his memories.  LTT was the dragon, so only someone with LTT's soul could be the dragon reborn.  Yes had Dem  been named the dragon, then next time Dem soul had been spun out, that guy would  of been the dragon reborn.  As far as I know the title dragon didn't grant one any special abilities, except the thing that come with a position of power. Since in the Age of Power  it was a title.   The fighting  in the sky  was when it  was announced to the world  he was here, but the moment he was born on the slopes of dragonmount he was the dragon reborn.  .  You can't be the dragon REBORN if you had never been the dragon in a previous turning.

Not at all. Having the role of Dragon indeed comes with special powers.

 

From the same link as before

Interview: 2011

Twitter 2011 (WoT) (Verbatim)

  Brandon Sanderson (4 January 2011)

Back to reading The Eye of the World, all. Posts to follow. I'll try to keep it at a steady stream, not a flood.

BRANDON SANDERSON

WoT Easter Egg: there's an easily overlooked line in the prologue of The Eye of the World which gives huge foreshadowing of things Rand can do in Towers of Midnight.

TEREZ

I always thought the fact that Lews Therin could sense that there were no people around for miles was interesting.

BRANDON SANDERSON

I should have guessed that you'd be the only one who would pick out the right line, Terez.

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Easter egg in the prologue has to do with Lews Therin sensing the lack of people around him for miles and miles.

BRANDON SANDERSON (5 JANUARY)

Regarding yesterday's Easter Egg, Maria mentions RJ was preparing a blog post on the concept.

BRANDON SANDERSON

For those who missed it, it has to do with Lews Therin sensing nobody was nearby when he made Dragonmount.

BRANDON SANDERSON

And before you ask, no, I can't say more. Sorry. Suffice it to say that what is in the books stands as enough of an answer, for now.

TEREZ

My original(ish) post on the ability to sense for people: http://bit.ly/safegates in '06. I was a noob(ish) then.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Interesting theory. What do you think of it now?

TEREZ

I think it still holds up (despite a few details I missed), but I think it's not what you were getting at. :)

Footnote

Most think this has something to do with the 'one with the land' thing. (See the Fisher King tag for more info.)

Tags

wotrr, rand, lews therin, dragon soul, the eye of the world, towers of midnight, unsolved mysteries,

 

[MauricXe]

Rand's soul makes him the True Dragon. There are false dragons and various leaders of the light. None of them, save Rand/LTT, are the true champion of the light. Even if Rand died in Eye of The World, there couldn't be another that could adequatelty take his place.

 

I imagine if Egwene had to seal the bore then we would see ANOTHER counterstroke.