Darkfriends and the Wolfkin

[Matalina]

Can someone point me to a reference that says Wolves can sense darkfriends... not padan fain, regular darkfriends.

 

Much appreciate the help in advance.

 

Mat

[WhiteWolf]

I believe, and i stand to be corrected, that it is the same "skill" with DF's as it is with the COL. Hopper told Perrin that people who smelt wrong were coming, in book one i think it is. The same distinction has been applied to Wolfkin being able to "smell out" DF's for a s long as i can remember.

 

Owen

[Matalina]

See that's my problem this is an assumption I think people are making not actual fact, that's why I want a reference.

 

How can you smell evil? You can smell that something is wrong if a person is nervous or if they put off that "vibe" but if a perfectly calm person who was not eminating evil or menace came up to a wolf how does he know they are a Darkfriend?

 

Dogs are keen sense of people in most cases but they can be thrown off just because a person is terrified of them, doesn't mean they have any ill intentions.

 

In the cases you provided these people are out to cause ill against other ppl, they aren't "nice" people. It's intent they smell not the actual evil.

 

Mat

[WhiteWolf]

You are diffenciating between WOlves and Wolfkin here. The reference for the Wolves "smelling bad "people is in the first book. At the time there was no refernce to one bad person, as i recall, but to bad people. Now the CoL do not see themselves as evil, so there must be more to this than just intent.

 

I remember talking this over with Alin and the upshot of this was that the Wolfkin had this same ability and could smell DF's*shrugs* He never gave any refernce for this, except to mention what i have already

[Matalina]

I have to reread the CoL part of that but I agree it was in reference to the group of them. They don't see themselves as evil, but if they were out there looking for trouble or out looking to "hang" some darkfriend, that is intent.

 

Like I said I have to reread that (and also to make sure one of them wasn't actually a DF to be known later in the books).

 

So if a perfectly normal person who was raised a darkfriend walked up to a wolf, he would immediately be discovered as a darkfriend just because he smelled wrong. He doesn't beleive he is evil, he's never done anything evil in his entire life, to him he's normal.

 

Where as a person who is not a darkfriend is out hunting his prey, a man who he's been stalking for years runs across a wolf, the wolf doesn't think he's a darkfriend even though he's out to murder a man.

 

See I don't how a perfectly normal person who beleives the Dark One is their savor and an assassin are the same thing... the CoL aren't evil as you said yet they smelled bad.

 

Mat

[WhiteWolf]

So if a perfectly normal person who was raised a darkfriend walked up to a wolf, he would immediately be discovered as a darkfriend just because he smelled wrong. He doesn't beleive he is evil, he's never done anything evil in his entire life, to him he's normal.

 

I would say that you have that the wrong way round Mat. From how i see it, it is not up to the person to determine whether they are good or evil, it is up to the wolf/wolfkin to. And i jsut remembered something, when Perrin was attacked by a DF, it was only becasue he was distracted over worry about Faile, that teh DF got close to him, remember that?

 

If you like i see it as a interpretation of the "smell" they get from that person,ok?

[Matalina]

see I don't think that is connected with the "smell" of the bad people. I think Perrin's own distraction would have prevented him noticing if anyone person was attacking him DF or not. Perrin's smelling and eye sight are ten times that of a normal person, the fact taht he was preoccupied doesn't mean that this person smelled any different than say Rand on a evil sense, (of course they smell different because they are different people)

 

But evil doesn't mean darkfriend is what I'm saying. Evil is evil, you don't have to be a darkfriend to be evil. This kid who was just detected as a darkfriend why? He beleives the great lord is his savior which is "evil" in thought, but he displays no ill will no bad intentins other than that he beleives differently than the norm.

 

A Darkfriend by defination is a person who follows the Dark One. The Dark One is the "personification" of all that is evil. But if you are evil you don't have to follow the Dark One. You get what I'm saying?

[WhiteWolf]

Thats a harder distiction to make as i cannot recall anything being said about that in the books. I understand the definition you are making here, so what exactly are you asking for here?

[Liitha]

in the end it comes down to it beeing fantasy and RP

 

wolves cant comunicate with humans with images like in the books for real...there is no tel'aran'rhiod where they can walk around in and gain knowledge

 

and changing this fact is not like changing some other stuff ...after so many years changing the wolfkins ability to smell evil i would say would have quite the effect...

 

afterall the warders can likewise sence shadowspawn

 

its a challenge to work around, wolves/dogs dont like channelers either there is no logic in that as such...anymore then that cats like them...its just how it is...unless you make very good arguments for an exception

 

but then it should be exceptions and not rule...Dfs have some of the larger freedoms there is on DM as such...some few challenges i think do us good. wolfkin and ogier is the two who is out of range for us because they are difrent 'breeds' as such

 

in general also i am not sure this is a can that should be opened...spawn is evil, none of them can channel, yet they are founded of the one power so what is to say that technicaly if one look at biological aspects there cant become mutations of fades or such channeling...or some trolloc born with a human soul who is stronger then the twisted spawn part making the trolloc non evil?

 

and if aginor could do it then why cant other research on mixing breeds and we have difrent new half human or such ideas poping up...

 

it migth be that technicaly its a wrong asumption but i am gonna take a long shot and say there is nothing truly in the books who really reveal the specifics of smelling bad and evil...and so we're down to making descisions ourself and the wolfkin and wolves by most are considered to be resistant of evil infiltration wheter it be the books alone or long standing tradition in DM ...why change it now?

[Matalina]

I'm not asking for change lol... I'm trying to get an understanding of it... I've a thought of an RP and I want clarification long before I even draw up an outline.

 

Basically I'm looking for where the line is drawn. I personally can't see how a DF can be smelled out and that seriously limits any of that type of interaction with SG because someone has to die or some other arrangement.

 

Not an RP plot but Taylor and Aiden (both boys of age 9) are out in the woods playing and they come across a wolf with a wolfkin not horridly far behind. Taylor is 9, he raised a darkfriend, and Aiden is raised around darkfriends but is not one himself. What does the wolf tell the wolfkin?

 

Mat

[WhiteWolf]

"Run away Wolfbrother....its children"

 

Thats what any sensible wolf would say anyway :lol:

[Matalina]

lol I'm serious :P

 

Ali

[WhiteWolf]

Who says i was not?

 

I mean who wants a bunch of diaper filling, snotty nosed, vomit laden ankle biters running all over the place

[Liitha]

some of our dogs basicaly do that...kids come to visit our dogs react difrently none is malicious...but while some rush to be cudled with some has been known to run to the door leading to the dogs room who has a hatch out to the dog yard...aka kids...i want ouuuuuttt

 

kids can make high pitched noises in their play, and in general be confusing in their language so that some dog individuals dont want to be around them is not weird ;)

[Matalina]

okay fine not two kids then.. same scenario :P

 

Mat

[WhiteWolf]

Jsut how efil are we talkign here?Murdering efil or like petty stealing efil?

[Matalina]

Just a darkfriend has no orders to kill anyone, just a darkfriend who's waiting for a call to his masters bidding.

 

Mat

[WhiteWolf]

Ok, let me know if you agree with this premise. DF's swear loyalty to the DO yes? Are they "marked" by this? Not a visable mark more an ethereal one. If that premise is accurate then i would say any Wolfkin above the rank of Wanderer would be able to tell a DF by "scent", evil has it's own scent i would say. Although we are really talking abstract concepts here

[Matalina]

okay this is going to get uber "religious" so I'll stay away from the topic and it begs to question how does a darkfriend become a darkfriend and that's alot more than this converstion is about...

 

With in the parameters our RP is set... I will think on the RP idea.

 

Ali

[WhiteWolf]

Religious? I thought we were talking abstract concepts here?

[Andular]

Just a thought but in the Great Hunt Perrin traveled with the group of soldiers from Fal Dara looking for the horn padan fain stole. That group was led by Ingtar who turend out to be a dark friend if I am not mistaken. I don't recall Perrin having any misgivings about him during their journey's. For that matter the sniffer Hurin did not either.

[WhiteWolf]

very good point Andu, i had forgotten about that. But wasn't that an exception rather than the rule? Wasn't there something with Ingtar that mitigated the DF label??

[Matalina]

Just a few references to back up Andy's point:

 

With Hurin missing, Perrin calls the wolves and gives them the scent of Trollocs and Fain. They tell him to continue south. Perrin tells Ingtar about the wolves and he accepts Perrin's offer to lead. (TGH,Ch14)

 

Ingtar attends the Darkfriend meeting near Shayol Ghul and receives orders from Ba'alzamon. (TGH,Prologue)

 

Ingtar confesses to Rand about being a Darkfriend and sacrifices himself so the others can escape. (TGH,Ch46)

 

So needless to say the premise is wrong.

 

Now precendeces have been changed based on book facts before, take the Aes Sedai/Warder bondings. Our rule was you couldn't bond a Darkfriend with out finding out and having to convert or kill the other. It is now the rule that a Black Ajah can bond a non-darkfriend and visa versa (this part I'm not positive of though) but the BA bonding light fools is now kosher.

 

 

Mat

[Matalina]

Owen posted while I was writing...

 

I don't see how there can be exceptions to the rule, you are either marked evil or you are not. This goes back to my whole theory on intention. The wolves smell intention not evil itself or the connection to the dark one.

 

Mat

[WhiteWolf]

If the Wolves do not smell the link to the DO, then why would he hate them so much? I would say they definately smell the link, it is more whether they smell the evilness that i think we need to clarify. Evil does not automatically mean the DO, but if that ws the case why then have the Wolfkin never had evil characters? I remember asking that the Wolfkin be alloweed Assassins and was roundly told that that was to "dark side"for the wolves to allow.

 

ANd although we rely heavily on the books for guidance, we have veered away from them sharply, at times. Maybe this is one of those times?