Ogier Gardeners?

[Myyrth]

They don't appear to need Steddings! Whats so diffrent about Seanchan Ogier?

 

Also, when will Aes Sedai learn how dumb it is to call someone a Wilder when they know more about the power than the wistest modern day Aes Sedai!?

[Luckers]

Stedding were more plentiful in Seanchan, and the Ogier never lost them completely, and thus never developed the Longing.

 

And the wilder prejudice is just that... a stupid prejudice. I find it particularily foolish when turned on the Wise Ones, who are an order of female channelers that predate the forming of the white tower, and have been way more successful in gathering and training female channelers.

[Magicana]

It is also an Aes Sedai elitist kind of thing. They believe that because they are trained at the White Tower and Aes Sedai that they are better than everyone. Thats why when the Aes Sedai are trained as apprentices by the Wise One's they feel such a loss of dignity - Wise One's don't care about someones position - they simply act how they always have.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I find it particularily foolish when turned on the Wise Ones, who are an order of female channelers that predate the forming of the white tower, and have been way more successful in gathering and training female channelers.

 

While I agree with the foolishness of Aes Sedai, in general and on this particular subject, as well as the greater success of the Aiel Wise Ones in gathering and training channelers, the Wise Ones do not pre-date the Tower. They were not mentioned in any of the Rhuidean flashbacks except the very first one, in which Mandein's wife is a Dreamwalker. Even then, she is not called a "Wise One", The Wise Ones seem to have organized at about the same time the chiefs started going to Rhuidean to gain the Dragon. That was at least a few hundred years after the Tower was established.

 

Its picky, I know, but I have to disagree where I can Luckers :D Too much of what you say makes sense.

[Luckers]

Firstly, you are wrong. The Wise Ones are referred to by Mordaine during the vision, and the implication of her comment shows the Wise Ones are a large and powerful force within the clans, despite there being no unifying Rhuidean concept. Certainly for that to be the case then the Wise Ones must have existed prior to the seperation of the clans from each other, and they must have existed for long enough that their organisation to remain consistant throughtout the Aiel race. This is backed up by the fact that these Wise Ones seemingly not only respect the opinions of the Jenn, but grant them authority.

 

Given that there was no contact with Aes Sedai after the Breaking began then not only does it seem likely that female Aiel channelers would band together to try and teach each other, but it seems nessasary. Perhaps some went off to find Aes Sedai to learn from, but the dangers meant that many must have also stayed.

 

Also, given the abovementioned respect granted to the Jenn its my guess that the Jenn trained young women from the clans when the two were still travelling together. Certainly someone must have organised the channelers in the clans... there wasn't enough time between the abandoning of the Second Covenant and the entering of the Three-Fold land for that sort of organisation to grow by itself, and certainly not enough for it to sustain itself as a unified whole when the clans seperated.

[RobertAlexWillis]

-sigh-

 

Someday I'm going to learn to re-read the sections I'm talking about before I respond to your posts, instead of after.

 

Still, the Wise Ones mentioned by Mordaine are not mentioned until the last POV, chronologically. There seems to have been a large lapse in time between Rhodric's last POV (before they crossed the Dragonwall), and Mandeins. There is alot of development that could have occurred in that period. The organization of the Wise Ones could have been a concurrent result of the splitting septs, rather than an antecedent. The Aiel were splitting apart after crossing the Dragonwall ... the Wise Ones probably began as a way to maintain communication and settle disputes between the now separating septs, and as the leadership of the Aiel was formalized and organized eventually by the events of Rhuidean, so too were the Wise Ones consolidated and organized.

 

In either case, the White Tower was organized and begun before the Aiel crossed the Dragonwall. It seems the Aiel did not split into clans (except for the Jenn, who didn't really think of it that way, of course) until after they crossed. At least, there is no mention of other clans in any previous POV ... even Mandein does not think of himself as part of a clan. The clan organization seems to have sprung from the leadership of those who went to Rhuidean. By the same token, the Wise Ones seem to have changed from basically friends who kept the septs in touch into a coherent (if still somewhat loose) organization based on the shared experiences of Rhuidean. So while the name "Wise One" existed, its not clear that the "organization" did. All of those things came about after they were in the Threefold Land and got access to the ter'angreal in Rhuidean.

 

he beginning of Tar Valon, however, is mentioned in Rhodric's pre-crossing POV, and Tar Valon was not begun until the after organization of that came to be housed in the White Tower was formed.

 

So, the way I see it, the White Tower organization predates Tar Valon, which predates the Crossing, which predates the Aiel split. From the split come the Wise Ones and sept chiefs concurrently, and from Rhuidean comes the organization of Wise Ones and the clan chiefs concurrently.

 

As for the Jenn teaching the Wise Ones ... that doesn't seem likely at all. Every comment of every POV after Lewin left the tents says that there is zero contact between the Jenn and the other Aiel, except for Jenn who come to join them. The Jenn tried to ignore the others, apparently all the way until they called the sept chiefs to Rhuidean.

[Luckers]

Still, the Wise Ones mentioned by Mordaine are not mentioned until the last POV, chronologically. There seems to have been a large lapse in time between Rhodric's last POV (before they crossed the Dragonwall), and Mandeins. There is alot of development that could have occurred in that period. The organization of the Wise Ones could have been a concurrent result of the splitting septs, rather than an antecedent. The Aiel were splitting apart after crossing the Dragonwall ... the Wise Ones probably began as a way to maintain communication and settle disputes between the now separating septs, and as the leadership of the Aiel was formalized and organized eventually by the events of Rhuidean, so too were the Wise Ones consolidated and organized.

 

I disagree. The unity of the the Wise Ones in spite of the seperation of the clans in a time prior to the combining factor of the Pact of Rhuidean, as well the way in which they respond to being contacted and commanded by the Jenn all indicates to me a preceding organisation. The way in which Moirdaine refers to the Wise Ones shows all of this.

 

In either case, the White Tower was organized and begun before the Aiel crossed the Dragonwall. It seems the Aiel did not split into clans (except for the Jenn, who didn't really think of it that way, of course) until after they crossed. At least, there is no mention of other clans in any previous POV ... even Mandein does not think of himself as part of a clan. The clan organization seems to have sprung from the leadership of those who went to Rhuidean. By the same token, the Wise Ones seem to have changed from basically friends who kept the septs in touch into a coherent (if still somewhat loose) organization based on the shared experiences of Rhuidean. So while the name "Wise One" existed, its not clear that the "organization" did. All of those things came about after they were in the Threefold Land and got access to the ter'angreal in Rhuidean.

 

The seperation of the septs vs. the coherency of the Wise Ones prior to the Pact of Rhuidean backs my claim. Without an existing point of unity they would have been very little similarities between the construction and role of channelers amidst the clans.

 

Moreover, however, where do you claim the channelers in the days prior to Aes Sedai rejoining the Jenn went? Who served the purpose of healing amongst the Da'shain? Its made clear the need for such by the comments made about the lack of Aes Sedai to do healing in the early days of the breaking. When such a social need exists, people move to fill it. That is where i believe the fact that there are non-channelers amongst the Wise Ones came from.

 

I believe that in the early days of the Breaking, female Aiel channelers still attempted to seek out Aes Sedai to train them. Meanwhile the lack of Aes Sedai Restorers meant healing would have been handled by whoever stepped up. In time the Breaking got worse, and contact with Aes Sedai stopped completely, and it became too dangerous for young women to seek out Aes Sedai. Meanwhile these women began to suffer from the effects of channeling without a teacher. The illnesses and other such problems. Of course they would come under the perview of the women who were handling the limited herbal healings of the Da'shain.

 

I doubt there was anything official in the beginning. The herbal healers would have gained respect, as would the channelers who survived for the services they could supply to the Aiel. They were likely the most educated of the Aiel, and their 'wisdom' would have been recognized. Likely the reason they didn't call themselves Aes Sedai comes purely from their respect for Aes Sedai.

 

But the Breaking covered 400 years. There is not a chance in hell that some organisation of Aiel channelers within the Aiel did not occur.

 

Now at this time Aes Sedai do begin to pop back up. The first recorded moment we have is around the same time as the founding of the Tower, so that means around 600 years have passed without interaction with Aes Sedai. Beyond which, my guess is the Aes Sedai who went with the Jenn were running from the Tower Aes Sedai. Recall that the Tower Aes Sedai were the seven largest organisations in the lands, and those that didn't bend were rather ruthlessly exterminated.

 

Combined between the strength of an existing organisation, and the fact that these Aes Sedai knew the dangers for any Aes Sedai not affiliated with the Tower it makes sense to me that they would leave the Aiel channelers to their own machinations. It makes even more sense that they would direct them into the Waste.

 

At this time the non-Jenn Aiel would have been either young men and women who left the Jenn, or those born to them. None of the channelers likely left, but for all that these were shunned for betraying the Way, i dont doubt the healers would have helped them when they were sick. If there was to be any contact between the non-jenn and the jenn it would be with the Wise Ones. The healers.

 

So when a young Aiel displayed the ability to channel, i dont doubt that it would have come to the notice of the Wise Ones. Certainly the way the Wise Ones amongst the clans react to recieving a comunication from the Jenn implies a sense that the Wise Ones concider the Jenn an information authority above them. Its even possible that some of the Jenn healers and channelers went to live with the clans.

 

Certainly given Mordaine's comments we know there was communication between the Wise Ones and the Jenn.

 

Whereas the beginning of Tar Valon is mentioned in Rhodric's pre-crossing POV, and Tar Valon was not begun until the after organization of that came to be housed in the White Tower was formed.

 

So the White Tower organization predates Tar Valon which predates the Crossing which predates the Aiel split.

 

I agree with that. I just feel that it is self-evident that there were channelers amongst the aiel that would inherently have been organised by the ongoing stability of the Aiel society. Ergo, Aiel channelers as a group that gathered and trained young girls long predates the formation of the Tower, or the unification of the seven groups in 210AB.

 

As for the Jenn teaching the Wise Ones ... that doesn't seem likely at all. Every comment of every POV after Lewin left the tents says that there is zero contact between the Jenn and the other Aiel, except for Jenn who come to join them. The Jenn tried to ignore the others, apparently all the way until they called the sept chiefs to Rhuidean.

 

Actually given the Wise Ones reactions to the Jenn more then show that this cant be the case. If a completely autonomous group that you have no relation to starts issueing ultimatums, how do you react?

 

So yes, Aiel gathering and training their own channelers predates the tower. It must. Unless you are suggesting the Aiel lost the ability to channel for the thousand years between the beginning of the Breaking and the seperation of the Aiel into septs?

[RobertAlexWillis]

I just feel that it is self-evident that there were channelers amongst the aiel that would inherently have been organised by the ongoing stability of the Aiel society.

 

I don't view that as self-evident at all, which is where the crux of our disagreement lies. There would have been no need for such an organization until the septs split. Channelers, assuming there were some (none are mentioned after Lewin's group left, but it is extemely unlikely, as you say, that were were none at all), were likely left on their own, or in small, independent groups, to learn as they could. These groups were probably the root of what became the "Wise Ones" but there would have been no need to organize until the septs split; they were all together anyway.

 

Assuming there were perhaps 20,000 Aiel when they made the crossing (a very arbitrary number I admit, and probably on the high side), with a standard AOL 3% channeler population, there would be 60 channelers. Assume that half of them were male, and therefore killed or insane, that leaves you 30 women. Thirty women don't need to form an organization, when they're all moving with the same camp. Only after the Crossing, when the Aiel's numbers grew and they began to establish holds and separate into septs, would the women who could channel need to form an organization of some kind.

 

Actually given the Wise Ones reactions to the Jenn more then show that this cant be the case. If a completely autonomous group that you have no relation to starts issueing ultimatums, how do you react?

 

I would tend to reject such an ultimatum ... unless I was a Dreamwalker and my Dreams told me if I didn't, then my entire people would be destroyed. Mandein's POV makes it very clear that the Dreams are the only reason that those who came, came. His wife doesn't say "I studied with the Jenn, shade of my heart, their not that bad." She says, "My Dream says do what they tell you or we all die".

 

Thats not an indication of a relationship or training. Its an indication that they trust Dreaming.

 

If Wise Ones existed before the split, you can be sure they would be involved in decision making. So why no mention, or even thought of them, in any POV prior to Mandein? Jordan went out of his way to include background information in the thought processes of each POV, but there is zero mention of Wise Ones before Rhuidean. That indicates to me that they were not present in any organized way.

[emilyisme]

Assuming there were perhaps 20,000 Aiel when they made the crossing (a very arbitrary number I admit, and probably on the high side), with a standard AOL 3% channeler population, there would be 60 channelers. Assume that half of them were male, and therefore killed or insane, that leaves you 30 women. Thirty women don't need to form an organization, when they're all moving with the same camp. Only after the Crossing, when the Aiel's numbers grew and they began to establish holds and separate into septs, would the women who could channel need to form an organization of some kind.

 

I hate to say this, but 3% of 20,000 is 600 not 60. So about 300 women. It is my opinion that 300 female channelers couldn't be part of the same group without some level of organisation.

[Luckers]

I don't view that as self-evident at all, which is where the crux of our disagreement lies. There would have been no need for such an organization until the septs split. Channelers, assuming there were some (none are mentioned after Lewin's group left, but it is extemely unlikely, as you say, that were were none at all), were likely left on their own, or in small, independent groups, to learn as they could. These groups were probably the root of what became the "Wise Ones" but there would have been no need to organize until the septs split; they were all together anyway.

 

I disagree. The respect that the Aiel held the Aes Sedai in means that channelers, struggling with learning, and suffering from the side effects of that learning, most certainly wouldn't have been left to themselves.

 

Indeed, the social cohesion of the Aiel is the only thing that allowed them to survive the Breaking, in particular the early breaking.

 

As i said in my post, it would not have been any sort of official organisation, but Aiel women have been gathering and training their women in channeling since the early days of the breaking, which im sorry to say precedes the formation of the tower by just a little.

 

I dont get it... you admit that aiel channelers exist during the breaking, then deny that aiel channelers precede the white tower?

 

Assuming there were perhaps 20,000 Aiel when they made the crossing (a very arbitrary number I admit, and probably on the high side), with a standard AOL 3% channeler population, there would be 60 channelers. Assume that half of them were male, and therefore killed or insane, that leaves you 30 women. Thirty women don't need to form an organization, when they're all moving with the same camp. Only after the Crossing, when the Aiel's numbers grew and they began to establish holds and separate into septs, would the women who could channel need to form an organization of some kind.

 

Well first of all, your just taking a percentile from one moment in time. Given that channelers have a much greater chance of surviving the trials of the breaking both in their ability to protect themselves and their resistance to common ailments, these women would have survived. You would have had channelers still living from that generation still. The breaking lasted 400 years, thats 12 generations. Thats ignoring the fact that in those times pregnancy rates would have been incredibly high to match the death rates. Channelers are much hardier, and therefore more likely to survive.

 

Aside from which, 3% of 20,000 is 600, not 60.

 

So three hundred women who can channel, and thats when the numbers of the aiel are drastically low. At the beginning of the breaking they would have been much higher, and some would still have been alive at the end of the split. My guess is that there would have been over a thousand Aiel channelers.

 

By the by did you read my post? You didn't comment on my theory about the healers, it makes great sense to me as the origins of the wisdom of the wise ones, and the admittence of non-channelers since it was more the probably begun by non-channelers.

 

I would tend to reject such an ultimatum ... unless I was a Dreamwalker and my Dreams told me if I didn't, then my entire people would be destroyed. Mandein's POV makes it very clear that the Dreams are the only reason that those who came, came. His wife doesn't say "I studied with the Jenn, shade of my heart, their not that bad." She says, "My Dream says do what they tell you or we all die".

 

And how many dreamwalkers are there? One for each sept chief?

 

I'm not saying that by that stage the wise ones were studying with the Jenn. I am saying that prior to the seperation of the septs they must have been, and that that is remembered. The Wise Ones as a group must have existed prior to the seperation, and that is why they still reguard each other with such respect, despite the enmity with the other septs, and the loss of contact with the Jenn.

 

If Wise Ones existed before the split, you can be sure they would be involved in decision making. So why no mention, or even thought of them, in any POV prior to Mandein? Jordan went out of his way to include background information in the thought processes of each POV, but there is zero mention of Wise Ones before Rhuidean. That indicates to me that they were not present in any organized way.

 

I'm sorry... you seem to be requiring an organisation with a letterhead and a banner. Aiel women have, as a unified group, been gathering and training channelers since the early days of the breaking. That is simply a must. There is no way around it, unless you claim the ability simply disapeared. Aiel social cohesion allows for nothing else. And that precedes the white tower, or the organisation that gave birth to it.

[cloglord]

It should be pointed out that at the time that the Aiel first set out there were no channeling Aiel among them. Simply if there had been, they would have been Aes Sedai and not Aiel. We also know from the early sections that there were no Aes Sedai traveling with the Aiel. That would mean that any girl who found herself channeling would likely leave to try and find an Aes Sedai to teach her so that she would not die as a wilder. Girls who could learn, would not have, since they would have lacked a teacher. Therefore if we take the 20,000 number, and the subsequent 600, those numbers don't hold up.

 

If we assume that 600 could have channeled then could could say that only 1 in 4 of those would have had the spark inborn. That leaves 150 sparkers, half of those would be men, so we only would have 75 women sparkers. Assuming those 75 women didn't leave to find an Aes Sedai trainer, we know that only 1 in 4 sparkers survive on their own, so now the number is down to 18 and change. Lets say that half of those end up with some sort of block, we now have nine 16 year old girls who barely know what it is that they are doing, and who have no formal training at all. Not really the start of a great society of channelers.

 

Assuming that these ladies survive the life of one who follows the way of the leaf, it would take them a long time to start finding and training aiel girls. Sorry Luckers, I gotta side with Robert on this one, just like it took time to form the WT it would take at least as long to form the core of the wise ones. They might be contemporaneous, but the WO's don't predate the WT.

[Magicana]

However, by the time they reach Rhuidean (Spelled it wrong I think) and the first men went down to become clan chiefs, they had at least two Aes Sedai from before the breaking.

[Myyrth]

What about the Ogier! I don't see how they could make viable troops if they might all die of the Longing on a long sea voyage!

[RobertAlexWillis]

What about the Ogier! I don't see how they could make viable troops if they might all die of the Longing on a long sea voyage!

 

Luckers covered that in the first sentence of his first post. Seanchan Ogier don't experience the Longing, because they never lost the stedding during and after the Breaking.

 

I dont get it... you admit that aiel channelers exist during the breaking, then deny that aiel channelers precede the white tower?

 

I deny that they organized before the White Tower. The simple existence of channelers does not require organization, especially when there is a very small number.

 

Aside from which, 3% of 20,000 is 600, not 60.

 

Yeah, now I have to admit I'm a dork. But frankly, as I said, 20,000 is probably high. The Aiel population was declining overall for the first part of those 12 generations of the Breaking, like everyone else's. They were getting killed, split apart, etc. Their population didn't start recovering until after they crossed the Dragonwall, so even 20,000 is probably high. But if the Aiel had 300 organized women who could channel, they would not have had the problems that forced them over the Dragonwall. They would have been the most powerful force in the world.

 

I think the roots of what became the Wise Ones existed before they crossed. What I consider "the roots" you consider "Wise Ones". And, to be honest, you have a point, in that even in their current form, the Wise Ones are not a hierarchical organization like the Aes Sedai. No official equivalent that we've seen to the Amyrlin Seat, no Hall of the Tower, no Ajahs, etc. So, what I call "a group of people trying to get by" you call "Wise Ones".

 

It seems amazing to me though, that if there were a bunch of organized channelers, they would not in any way influence the key events in the flashbacks until the the very last one.

 

And how many dreamwalkers are there? One for each sept chief?

 

Thats what the POV seems to imply, yes.

 

I am saying that prior to the seperation of the septs they must have been, and that that is remembered.

 

I simply don't see anything that supports that anywhere in the text. Once you went to the Aiel, you were no longer welcome among the Jenn.

 

Aiel social cohesion allows for nothing else.

 

That depends on how many channelers there were. But, as you implied, you and I view the term "organization" in different terms. What I would call the "roots" you consider already organized. Thats a completely different argument.

[Guest cwestervelt]

What about the Ogier! I don't see how they could make viable troops if they might all die of the Longing on a long sea voyage!

 

As Luckers said in his original reply to you' date=' the Ogier from Seanchan do not suffer the Longing because they never lost the Stedding. Asked to and answered by Robert Jordan himself in the Question of the Week.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152

Week 3 Question: How do the Seanchan Ogier cope with the Longing, given that their duties in the Deathwatch Guard take them overseas? Are there many Steddings in Seanchan?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: There are many more stedding in Seanchan than there are in the part of the world where the story is taking place, and that is why the Seanchan Ogier don't suffer from the Longing. Because there are so many more stedding, they were able to find them more easily even during the Breaking and therefore never had the very extended separation that Ogier on this side of the Aryth Ocean had, though they seldom were able to settle in one for very long until the Breaking ended.

[Myyrth]

IC, I must have missed that. Cool cool.

[Guest cwestervelt]

No harm done. It wasn't hard to do concerning the complete irrelevance of all posts between Lucker's original reply and your restating the question.

 

Edit: Your avatar picture: Terry Brooks' "Knight of the Word"?

[Myyrth]

Yep, i'm a big fan of Terry Brooks, just decided to rereard Word and Void now that i'm done with KoD.

 

I'm interested what happened to the Ogier of Seandar that turned them so warlike. I wonder how the homelife of Seanchan Ogier is?