Discussion surrounding WB project

[Mat Cauthon]

I still think we need to wait a LONG time before you write. We still have a lot to do. When someone writes a story they are supposed to know just about everything about their world even if it isn't going to be in the story. Tolkien spent a good amount of his life working on the world of The Lord of the Rings. Robert Jordan knows just about everything about Randland and has extensive notes covering it. A few very minor things like climate, very minor history, and some astronomy is NOT going to cut it. We need to get VERY specific with everything. We need to get the specifics of ALL regions and all of the major-midsized cities (we don't need to worry about the villages and stuff unless we have one which is going to be major to the story like Edmonds Field).

 

I think we NEED to work on everything for at least a few more months on worldbuilding. Having one thread will make it take longer, but it doesn't matter. I worry more about quality than the speed at which we can start. Egwene, we NEED a specific subforum if we want this to be good. I am not talking all of this so I get that, but it would really help the organization. I like the color coding system you implemented, but it still isn't good enough in my opinion. Can you just take a moment to think about it and not just shoot me down because we don't have a bunch of people and you don't like the idea? This would help bring in more people because most people don't like reading through lots of 10 page threads to get the information (the original 2 worldbuilding threads and this one). I probably wouldn't have if I was not planning on doing my own writing later and wanted to get some experience earlier. This will also keep it a lot more organized and help make everything good. I suppose it is fine to keep it the way now since we really aren't doing that much, but if we are going to do more extensive background (which I believe is needed) we definitely need to implement a subforum because it will be going a lot of different ways than from usually a single discussion.

 

Okay, basically here are my reasons for both of these. WIll you please actually consider my proposition?

 

For longer time world building:

- We need to get more canonical things written down about the past and the present, how things are going to look. I hate the "we will leave it up to the writers" phrase. We are worldbuilding, we need to get all the specifics down before we can go into the actual writing.

- We need to set a general plot or idea of where we are going. One writer could be destroying the world and another could be having the world in a pacifistic state. We need to have a general idea of where we are and where we want to go.

- We want writers to be going the same direction generally. We want to have it so they have freedom to roam and create, but we need to have all the major things canonical and a good idea of where we are going so they can all be aimed for the same goal.

- It messes with continuity. In WoT I knew that Shienarians had topknots and stuff very earlier. If one person is writing about what one group of people is like the other people won't know what they are like. THis will create problems and will make the writing not as good as it would be normally. They would either not include it or include it and have something wrong with them. If this is just a minor detail it could be fixed, but if it plays a large role in their storyline then it could be difficult to change without totally rewriting.

- Would give people more to write about and allow them to write better. If they know more about the world they can include that in their writing which they wouldn't have before.

 

There are so many reasons why it would be better to wait to write. Trust me, I am just as ready as anyone to write as everyone else, but I want this to be as good as it can, not as quick as it can go. I think that it would definitely be the best if we get down everything major later. I will say more about this later in the post.

 

Subforum-

 

- We need a place to organize ideas and stuff. If we do decide that we are going to do more extensive world building then we are going to start branching out into more things and we will have too much stuff for one topic. WE could have separate topics for history, each region, and how people view other races and stuff.

- Could possibly draw more people because it would be more organized. Nobody wants to really read through 9 pages to get into something. A few topics a few pages each are a lot less scary.

 

There are more reasons I can't think of at the moment. Is there really any reason why we shouldn't move the topics to its own forum? Is there?

 

I think that after this we should start getting into more specifics. I think first we need to do a region-by-region database. We need to get what each region is like (personality wise, looks wise, etc.), the major cities of the region, major things in agriculture, the political structure, and how they view other groups/others view them. After we get that stuff down, which should take a while, we can move on to history and how things got the way things are now. We need to do all the major things which affected history and what really happened. When we get to the point of view of opposing regions they could have opposing views on a battle ages ago which made for a highly contested area today (PoV 1 - They invaded us and took our land! We need to get it back. PoV 2 - They stole our land, we reclaimed it rightly and we have the claim to it.). We need to get what REALLY happened though. This would be the equivalent to thinking about the Trolloc Wars, Hawkwing Wars, and the War of the Powers and seeing how they got them to where Randland is today (Seanchan gone, male channelers feared, etc.). We also then would have to set a general outline of what we want to happen and where we are going. After all of this there will still be some stuff we need to clarify to make it easy. THen we could leave it up to the writers.

 

I don't know where I saw it, but we need to be careful about how we do this too. I am not sure that we can use these forums when we actually do the writing. I saw something that if you posted something more than like 2% of your work in a nonprotected forum then it becomes property of the forum or something. I also am not really sure about how long we should keep this open to the public. I trust all of you guys, but anyone can just come to the forums and look at all of our ideas and steal them. For this I think that once we get the world built we need to have a site which is password protected where we can put all of our writings. I am not sure about all the legality of everything, but I do know that I don't want all of our work to get stolen.

 

For when we actually start writing I have a few ideas. I think we should have 2 types of editors. Canonical Editors who will be responsible for making sure nothing in the story conflicts with the canon. They will also be a group that will make things from a story canonical. I think you would need about 3 of them to check off on the story and everything before anything in it is considered canonical. Then you have your other editors who just edit the writing and stuff like a normal editor. We would also need to have some people who can put the stories in a good order which would look good and make sense to the reader.

 

*phew* A lot of writing. I really am interested in making all of this work. I think that I could offer a lot to this project, but if you guys dont really consider my thoughts then I don't think I can stay on this project. I really don't see any credible reason that we shouldn't have a subforum or wait longer before the writing starts.

[Guest Egwene]

Mat, I honestly have given your suggestions a lot of consideration. I joined this project initially because I am interested in the world building, rather than the following story writing. However, it is no good having a project that noone is interested in. At this moment the majority of people here are staying with it because they are happy with the way it is going.

 

How about an alternative? We carry on as we are now, which is NOT trying to build what Tolkien or RJ have build, but a rough outline of a world that leaves quite a lot of options for people to play with. At which point we start a new project in which those that are interested in it return to the world building process to attack it in more detail.

 

Edit: for anyone wishing to come into the project new, the only thing they need to know to take part is read the first post, the CDV. That tells them the stage the project is at. I would expect them to contribute from there onwards, not to go back to what has already been decided unless it comes up within the aspect under discussion.

[Mat Cauthon]

There was some other important things in there which was important to the future of the project and you just move it all?

 

There were other points in there that you don't mention.

 

Just because people are content with how something is, doesn't mean it cant be better.

 

Tolkien and RJ built two of the most successful fantasy worlds. If we want this book that we are creating to actually sell, and if we want this story to actually be successful we need to spend more time on worldbuilding. I almost gaurantee that this will not work if we leave the worldbuilding where it is now. There is a difference between letting people roam free and having just about no structure or backbone for the story.

 

I am not interested in working in a project which is destined to fail, which this likely is if we leave the stuff where it is now (basically, which is what it is looking like).

[U4ea]

Check your PMs, Mat.

[Mat Cauthon]

Im sorry for having been rude Egwene.

 

I am not saying we have to be like Tolkien or Jordan, but we should try to follow closer to them when they both have created two of the most successful fantasy stories ever. We need to have more detail for it to work. More detail would still let a writer roam free, but would give it structure. How many people are supossed to be writing anyways? Only us 5 are really active in the project, so we all still would be making the decisions.

 

Think of it like this, if we give the history of the world around the middle ages, but in a mystical world. We talk about England, France, China and India. We give a general history of how feudalism started, Greek and Roman influences and stuff. There still are a million plotlines to build on, but you dont just go "here is the earth, create a story".

 

What exactly are we trying to do for this project? What is the ultimate goal? Is it suppossed to just be a fun thing to hvae done? Is it supossed to get published? If it is getting published it needs to have more starting detail to build off of, and even if it isn't then it would be good.

 

On a smaller scale, what are you going for? Why are we writing this story? Is there any goal? Is it just random stories of peopl ein a world? Is there an actual storyline that we are going for? I have no idea. If we don't have an idea then we will just have a bunch of people going totally random directions.

 

I believe we need to have a few things set in stone:

 

Major Countries and Cities - (What hte people are like in general, how others feel towards them, political system, history, etc.)

 

HIstory - (Major events which affect the present)

 

Plotline - (Where are we going? Where is the ultimate goal for this?)

[Guest Egwene]

I moved this lock stock and barrel, because it is all about how to run the project, not about the topic that was under discussion, i.e. moons and season/climate.

 

You don't need to apologise to me , Mat. You make a lot of very good points about world creation in the context of writing a book for publishing. However, the only publishing that we talked about as far as I know, has been the thought within the group, that maybe we could do something for a DM anthology in the future.

 

The project is exactly what the name says... a project. It is on the main public board to give anyone that comes by the opportunity to take part. We are creating a playground for story writing exercises. If the intention was to write a book for publishing, it would be done in a far more secluded place.

 

And yes, the idea is for anyone to take the world that we create and set a random story in it. There is no storyline. It is a fun project

[Kivam]

For longer time world building:

- We need to get more canonical things written down about the past and the present' date=' how things are going to look. I hate the "we will leave it up to the writers" phrase. We are worldbuilding, we need to get all the specifics down before we can go into the actual writing.

- We need to set a general plot or idea of where we are going. One writer could be destroying the world and another could be having the world in a pacifistic state. We need to have a general idea of where we are and where we want to go.

- We want writers to be going the same direction generally. We want to have it so they have freedom to roam and create, but we need to have all the major things canonical and a good idea of where we are going so they can all be aimed for the same goal. [/quote']

 

Part of what we're doing is creating a setting that's free for anyone to play with as they will. That means that there is no one overarching plot goal or story arc (though one may develop, which is what I was talking about when I brought up the idea of a "Cannon Plot"), and there may well be mutually contradictory stories written by various authors. Think of it like the DC multiverse - Earth 1, Earth 2, Earth 3 might have the same characters and locations, but who they are and how they play out are completely different. Non-Cannon plotlines won't need to be consistent with any other author's work (though they should have a clear indication that they will be inconsistent).

 

 

I think that after this we should start getting into more specifics. I think first we need to do a region-by-region database. We need to get what each region is like (personality wise, looks wise, etc.), the major cities of the region, major things in agriculture, the political structure, and how they view other groups/others view them.

 

I agree with this - that's something we should get into (and it can probably start now, if we can split it off the way Geo/Climate used to be split off; I think we have enough of the backbone in the total creation thread that if a group of people want to take that on, they can.

 

After we get that stuff down, which should take a while, we can move on to history and how things got the way things are now. We need to do all the major things which affected history and what really happened. When we get to the point of view of opposing regions they could have opposing views on a battle ages ago which made for a highly contested area today (PoV 1 - They invaded us and took our land! We need to get it back. PoV 2 - They stole our land, we reclaimed it rightly and we have the claim to it.). We need to get what REALLY happened though. This would be the equivalent to thinking about the Trolloc Wars, Hawkwing Wars, and the War of the Powers and seeing how they got them to where Randland is today (Seanchan gone, male channelers feared, etc.).

 

Mat, this is where the multiverse aspect comes in, though. There is no general "now." Writer 2 might set his story 30 years before or 500 years after writer 1's, and they may have and need different histories to do it. Again, Cannon plots will need to be consistent, but not all the writing set on First World needs to be Cannon.

 

 

I don't know where I saw it, but we need to be careful about how we do this too. I am not sure that we can use these forums when we actually do the writing. I saw something that if you posted something more than like 2% of your work in a nonprotected forum then it becomes property of the forum or something. I also am not really sure about how long we should keep this open to the public. I trust all of you guys, but anyone can just come to the forums and look at all of our ideas and steal them. For this I think that once we get the world built we need to have a site which is password protected where we can put all of our writings. I am not sure about all the legality of everything, but I do know that I don't want all of our work to get stolen.

 

As a lawyer with some experience in copyright, a few points.

 

1) You never lose a copyright by making something publicly accessible. If you created it, it's yours. The issue is that if you post a book on a free forum, it's hard (read, impossible) to find a publisher who will publish it, since people can always get it for free.

 

2) As far as stealing our ideas - well, like I said, we have a copyright in our creative expression (at this point, it's safe to say this will likely be considered a work of joint authorship). Anyone stealing that expression would be guilty of violating our collective copyright and subject to various damages.