November 7th, 1606: Day 4 (CONCLUDED)

Verbal32 · July 22, 2013

I'm not usually a WoT caser, but I'm making an exception as my hounding of Yates came across multiple pages and was before the weekend. Here we go:

Alright so first of all, it wasn't a SK who killed Ishy. It was the town Vig, who I happen to be. I found his post condemning me to be full of all kinds of mock outrage. Sucks that I made such a poor choice, since Jailkeeper is such a powerful role

So... Cloud-Nol scum team in T2?
That's how it's kinda lookin to me atm. Cloud/Nol in T2...

So... why didn't you target Cloud or Nol last night? You were all over Cloud's case yesterday while voting Salami with us. I hope you can see why I think your Vig claim is really an SK claim, right?

I kinda wished you hadn't said that yet. I was angling to see if we could get him talking about it more - he'll go defensive now. Doh!

Struck me as trying to quickly gain the town cred by trying to figure out the vig/SK mystery at the time.

I kinda wished you hadn't said that yet. I was angling to see if we could get him talking about it more - he'll go defensive now. Doh!
I just want an explanation, is all. He doesn't need to be defensive [yet]. Cloud is still today's lynch. I'm willing to give Des a night to shoot scum [thus proving his value] or investigate as Town before voting him to the gallows tomorrow.

I don't like the subtle suggestion embedded here for the Cop to view Des tonight. Assuming a rolled up game, you'd potentially have scum roles that could help either ID the Cop, or tamper with results.

FOS to you, my friend.

His first Cop-direction that I called out immediately - I don't like those types of plays, as they reek of scum.

Cloud

Yates

Razen

In that order.

FOS to you, my friend.

Ninjaed. See post 426.

Doesn't help. I think you might be scum trying to ID whether that's a SK helping you clear the field, or a townie vig you need to take out now. While I too want Des confirmed, I'm not about to suggest when that should happen. That subtle Cop direction is a complete scumtell.

Reiterating my point to Yates.

Yes, which means he'll scumhunt with lynches and shoot who he thinks is the Cop. Once the Cop is down, all bets are off.

Well, he doesn't know who the cop is yet or he would have shot the cop last night. Obviously if he shoots the cop [or really any Town PR] tonight he gets turbo lynched tomorrow. So this isn't really an argument. This isn't an argument BECAUSE he HAS to shoot scum tonight to live through tomorrow.

Huh? How so? You give the vig 2 shots to hit scum before lynching them? And I'm not saying he knows the Cop, or that he's even looking for the Cop......I'm saying that you are giving subtle Cop directions and it pings hard.

Me questioning his faulty logic of having to shoot scum. Makes to sense, and then me reiterating again (lol) how much I don't like subtle Cop directing.

Huh? How so? You give the vig 2 shots to hit scum before lynching them? And I'm not saying he knows the Cop, or that he's even looking for the Cop......I'm saying that you are giving subtle Cop directions and it pings hard.

Well, it's all moot now since Cloud is dead. I wanted to see if Cloud would claim cop. Existence of jailkeep makes likelihood of cop extremely remote. So yeah, I was directing a role that I don't believe exists.

I know what you intended - I got the joke you made to me, knowing Cloud was our scummate last game. I didn't expect the claim, though. That said, I'm still thinking you wanted to Cop direct, and using your error (or not) of the jailkeeper role isn't backing you out of the FOS. Pull my finger!!!

I don't buy his error of not knowing the jailkeeper role. He would have looked it up immediately. This is more a gut feel, and not a solid piece of evidence, I'll admit.

I'm pretty sure we already have Nolder pegged as scum. I'm leaning scum on Razen now, too.
Agree on Razen, less on Nolder. Toss yourself in there, too, while you're at it. ;-)

No thanks, I'm busy catching scum.

What's your thought here? Cloud bussed me instead of hiding in what would have been an unnoticed Yates vote? And I subsequently bussed him right back?

No, I'm still on the subtle Cop direction you were insinuating.

...my problem with this is if he was an SK why would he come out and fess up to shooting Ishy the jailkeeper right when day started and we had no idea who did it?
I can't tell you why he did it. I can tell you *I* would do it for Town credit. If the scope of suspicion ever swung my way and I wanted to be able to wiggle out of the noose with a Vig claim, I wouldn't want to have to answer for why I didn't claim immediately on Day 2.

That said, he still has today and tonight to prove he's Town and to shoot scum. I'm willing to roll with it. We can deal with Des's claim tomorrow since we can only lynch 1 at a time. Heck, for all you know I actually believe Des's claim 100% and I'm leaving this out there so scum will think Des has a chance of being lynched tomorrow thus saving his hide tonight. See what I'm saying?

I can't decide whether the bolded helps your case, as you'd know Des was going to die.....but then I WIFOM myself and wonder if you tossed this out there for that exact reason.

Overall conclusion right now? You and Razen are the next 2 lynches.

See my point directly above here. Initially I thought this might help his case a little, but then I'm thinking it was intentional. I stick with my prior conclusion, which is also why I liked Mish's case on Razen and voted that way. I'd say Yates should be next.

I can't decide whether the bolded helps your case, as you'd know Des was going to die...
Meh - I think you'd need to check my MS meta from when I was scum with a vig/sk claim out there. I claimed I wanted a "leashed SK" to shoot who the "Town" thought was scummiest.

Here's a link: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=4460426#p4460426

Essentially, I wanted to direct the extra kill. That's not an opportunity scum Yates would squander with none of you knowing this. Frankly, I'm surprised Cloud chose to shoot Des for just that reason as well as because of the suspicion I was starting to raise on him. Only reason to do it is if he thought there was a high likelihood Des would shoot scum.

Everything you just said is irrelevant for 2 reasons:

1. There are MS people here that could substantiate meta from another site and therby lend unintended credence to your explanation

2. I play on JN. I do NOT play the same on JN that I play here. My meta is different as a result (mostly). You could easily do the same.

See the 2 points there - trying to give me offsite meta, and my basic retort of how I play differently across 2 sites as well.

[TO BE CONTINUED BECAUSE I GOT HIT WITH THE POST QUOTE MAX FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER]

Verbal32 · July 22, 2013

[CONTINUED]

I do NOT play the same on JN that I play here. My meta is different as a result (mostly). You could easily do the same.

I *could* but it doesn't change the fact I would want that extra kill. It also doesn't change the fact I would want a potential SK to be the lynch target the following day. Again, the point you are missing is that scum killing Des potentially did us a favor. Scum aren't known for doing Town favors. So it had to be self-serving to some extent. I maintain that points to Nolder scum as Des and I were both confident in Cloud-Nolder as scum in this thread. Cloud scum wouldn't care if Des took a shot at Nolder Town and would likely let him live to take the shot.

I didn't miss the point. I understand the favor it could have done us. Des could also have gone off on a spree and killed the whole damn scum team, too. Who knows. But I would not really view this situation in as positive a light as you appear to be.

I don't have anything significant to say about that exchange, but it was part of the convo so I'm including it.

I do NOT play the same on JN that I play here. My meta is different as a result (mostly). You could easily do the same.

I *could* but it doesn't change the fact I would want that extra kill. It also doesn't change the fact I would want a potential SK to be the lynch target the following day. Again, the point you are missing is that scum killing Des potentially did us a favor. Scum aren't known for doing Town favors. So it had to be self-serving to some extent. I maintain that points to Nolder scum as Des and I were both confident in Cloud-Nolder as scum in this thread. Cloud scum wouldn't care if Des took a shot at Nolder Town and would likely let him live to take the shot.

But I would not really view this situation in as positive a light as you appear to be.

I said nothing about this being a positive light. Scum got in an extra kill and I'm glad it removed some wifom. BUT, it is worth noting that they DID remove wifom and you are either scum or kidding yourself if you don't think that's significant.

So the "potentially did us a favor" is not spinning something into a positive light? No? A 'favor' appears to sound pretty damn positive to me.

It didn't really remove WIFOM - it just cleared up whether Des was SK or vig. You are waayyyy off in this thread. I'd suggest killing me now - I'll be leading your lynch tomorrow.

Me pointing out how he's contradicting himself, which is a major scumtell usually. And he starts using the WIFOM excuse, which I explain below has nothing to do with this situation.

So the "potentially did us a favor" is not spinning something into a positive light? No? A 'favor' appears to sound pretty damn positive to me.

It didn't really remove WIFOM - it just cleared up whether Des was SK or vig. You are waayyyy off in this thread. I'd suggest killing me now - I'll be leading your lynch tomorrow.
Yeah. Take it out of context with the rest of the argument. Because that's not scummy AT ALL.

Clearing up if Des is an SK or Vig *IS* removing the WIFOM. Also, you know, lynch bait... Way to not address that at all.

Spinny spinning spin spinner. Not gonna work. I'm focused, baby.

WIFOM has nothing to do with Des' alignment there. He could kill each night - at the immediate moment, it was irrelevant if he was working for town or solo....he'd be scumhunting on thread like the rest of us.....as I already noted.

WIFOM

You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

;-)

So, yeah. That's my case on Yates. Cop directing, trying to be "Johnny-on-the-spot" super helpful townie, using offsite meta, contradicting himself, and even using mafia buzzwords wrong (WIFOM). Each item on its own isn't much, but add them all together over a few pages and I think it is worth a run-up & reveal, if not the full lynch (depending on the reveal).

Unvote

Verbal32 · July 22, 2013

Also - vote peace. Peace is our Godfather.

wat?

Where did you pull this one from?

Verbal32 · July 22, 2013

Vote: Yates

I promised I'd run him up. Let's do this, unless/until he provides a better explanation. Especially the deal with the above quote.

Yates · July 22, 2013

1. Struck me as trying to quickly gain the town cred by trying to figure out the vig/SK mystery at the time.

2. Cop-direction that I called out immediately - I don't like those types of plays, as they reek of scum.

3. Me questioning his faulty logic of having to shoot scum.

4. This is more a gut feel, and not a solid piece of evidence, I'll admit.

5. Initially I thought this might help his case a little[saying Des had that day and night to prove he's Town and to shoot scum], but then I'm thinking it was intentional.

6. offsite meta

7. pointing out how he's contradicting himself [i said scum did us a favor - he's trying to say I'm painting that kill in a "positive light"], which is a major scumtell usually.

8. Almost forgot - being super helpful

Before I address each point is this your case on me in a nutshell, Verb? I would hate to have missed anything.

Also - learn to spoiler. That post is way too long and sloppy.

Yates · July 22, 2013

Also - vote peace. Peace is our Godfather.

wat?

Where did you pull this one from?

I was hoping I might get you to accidentally vote for scum while you were in your tunnel. It was worth a shot.

bgrishinko · July 22, 2013

Vote Yates

This is like Yates from Nolder's game all over again.

Yates · July 22, 2013

This is like Yates from Nolder's game all over again.

You might have a point if you had Town-Yates meta to compare it to... ie. How is this different from how you think "Town Yates" would respond?

bgrishinko · July 22, 2013

This is like Yates from Nolder's game all over again.
You might have a point if you had Town-Yates meta to compare it to... ie. How is this different from how you think "Town Yates" would respond?

See T1/T3. Not sensing the same vibe there, and incidentally I have a town read on you in day 3, though truthfully it can't be substantiated. Besides, all the weird stuff from Nolder's game I see in you here was mostly for show to look like confused town and you really knew better and were more intelligent than that.

Verbal32 · July 22, 2013

1. Struck me as trying to quickly gain the town cred by trying to figure out the vig/SK mystery at the time.

2. Cop-direction that I called out immediately - I don't like those types of plays, as they reek of scum.

3. Me questioning his faulty logic of having to shoot scum.

4. This is more a gut feel, and not a solid piece of evidence, I'll admit.

5. Initially I thought this might help his case a little[saying Des had that day and night to prove he's Town and to shoot scum], but then I'm thinking it was intentional.

6. offsite meta

7. pointing out how he's contradicting himself [i said scum did us a favor - he's trying to say I'm painting that kill in a "positive light"], which is a major scumtell usually.

8. Almost forgot - being super helpful

Before I address each point is this your case on me in a nutshell, Verb? I would hate to have missed anything.

Also - learn to spoiler. That post is way too long and sloppy.

I don't like the spoiler tag thing, so no. I don't do long posts like that often....actually, that might be the 3rd or 4th time I ever have. I chop them up usually, but this was from before the weekend, so I didn't think that would be as effective.

Also, no.....you're misrepping the theme behind my case. I don't like how you have me quoted as if I actually said it like that. That would qualify as twisting my words to make them work better for you.

Also - vote peace. Peace is our Godfather.

wat?

Where did you pull this one from?

I was hoping I might get you to accidentally vote for scum while you were in your tunnel. It was worth a shot.

wat?

That is your reason? Simply to try and get me to vote peace for some unproven reason?

You're turning yourself into a huge distraction right now. You did this as scum with me - it worked like a charm, as you're good at wiggling out of lynches.

Will you wiggle out of this one? Perhaps. I'll be fine with that if it comes as a result of a good defense and reveal from you. Feel free to chop my posts up all you want - but don't misrep......that'll get you lynched quickly.

Get to it, sir.

Yates · July 22, 2013

1. Struck me as trying to quickly gain the town cred by trying to figure out the vig/SK mystery at the time.

2. Cop-direction that I called out immediately - I don't like those types of plays, as they reek of scum.

3. Me questioning his faulty logic of having to shoot scum.

4. This is more a gut feel, and not a solid piece of evidence, I'll admit.

5. Initially I thought this might help his case a little[saying Des had that day and night to prove he's Town and to shoot scum], but then I'm thinking it was intentional.

6. offsite meta

7. pointing out how he's contradicting himself [i said scum did us a favor - he's trying to say I'm painting that kill in a "positive light"], which is a major scumtell usually.

8. Almost forgot - being super helpful

Before I address each point is this your case on me in a nutshell, Verb? I would hate to have missed anything.

Also, no.....you're misrepping the theme behind my case. I don't like how you have me quoted as if I actually said it like that. That would qualify as twisting my words to make them work better for you.

To the bolded - yeah. I anticipated the "misrep" defense which is why I asked you straight out. I didn't realize your defense had a "theme." Groovy. To the underlined - you actually stated all of the quotes above and they are quoted. I did interject info in brackets for clarity in point 7 and editorialized point 8 - but I don't think either of those "misrep" your case in any way.

So I'll ask again - are those the MAJOR points of your case? Yes or No?

I was hoping I might get you to accidentally vote for scum while you were in your tunnel. It was worth a shot.
wat?

That is your reason? Simply to try and get me to vote peace for some unproven reason?

No. That's obviously not my reason. I was obviously being snarky with you as your case is crap and your tunnel is an OBVIOUS tunnel. I have yet to determine if it's because you are being dumb, because you are scared of me, or because you are scum. Unless I determine you have ulterior motives, I'm going to treat this as Town tunneling Town and simply blow up your case so this doesn't remain a "distraction." Alternatively, I can turn this around on you as I did with Des. But I don't think you're scum. Yet.

Please respond to the question in bold.

Yates · July 22, 2013

See T1/T3.

See, there's the rub. It just so happens I'm Town in all 3 but you wouldn't know that unless you were scum in one of the other 2 games. So until I flip, you don't have a meta basis for Yates Town. And flipping Town here will be too late. All I can tell you is I have different roles and the way I play those roles will be different in each game.

Also interesting that you find me Town in T3 when I should be an obv Town read to you in T1.

You should trust me and vote for Peace scum here. If I'm wrong, we can revisit this. If I'm right, that will be two scum in a row I helped lynch. And that should count for something.

bgrishinko · July 22, 2013

You are right, I don't know if T1/T3 you are town or not, but it feels quite different, and this feels quite similar to Nolder's game. Hence -> :flamingsword:

You are trying to wiggle your way out right now asking me to "trust you." Well, frankly, I don't.

Yates · July 22, 2013

You are trying to wiggle your way out right now

Nobody's "wiggling." Well, maybe Verb. I'm just waiting for him to confirm his case on me. You should know that I don't "wiggle" under pressure. And this, by the way, isn't even pressure.

So unless you want to go with something other than gut and make a case on me, you should read the case on Peace. You should also let Verb answer me.

bgrishinko · July 22, 2013

Depends on your definition to wiggle. You do hold up to pressure well as mafia, this I do know, you will fight it tooth and nails and even offer yourself as a 1 v 1 lynch and self vote as mafia to gain street cred. What I mean by wiggle is that you are trying to squeeze and twist the argument and change the subject.

I will agree that Verbal should answer your question and I will re-read the case on Peace, but that doesn't change my opinion of you. You're a tricksy one.

EDIT: Used the wrong "you're" bugged me.

Yates · July 22, 2013

1. What I mean by wiggle is that you are trying to squeeze and twist the argument and change the subject.

2. You're a tricksy one.

2. Yup. I am. And that's a good person to have on your team.

1. Nope. I'm not doing that. I really just wanted to compress his arguments to high level statements that can be easily addressed without a 3 page wall of quotes. He's claiming that's somehow misrepping him - which is nonsense. And you should recognize that fact.

Verbal32 · July 22, 2013

1. Struck me as trying to quickly gain the town cred by trying to figure out the vig/SK mystery at the time.

2. Cop-direction that I called out immediately - I don't like those types of plays, as they reek of scum.

3. Me questioning his faulty logic of having to shoot scum.

4. This is more a gut feel, and not a solid piece of evidence, I'll admit.

5. Initially I thought this might help his case a little[saying Des had that day and night to prove he's Town and to shoot scum], but then I'm thinking it was intentional.

6. offsite meta

7. pointing out how he's contradicting himself [i said scum did us a favor - he's trying to say I'm painting that kill in a "positive light"], which is a major scumtell usually.

8. Almost forgot - being super helpful

Before I address each point is this your case on me in a nutshell, Verb? I would hate to have missed anything.

Also, no.....you're misrepping the theme behind my case. I don't like how you have me quoted as if I actually said it like that. That would qualify as twisting my words to make them work better for you.

To the bolded - yeah. I anticipated the "misrep" defense which is why I asked you straight out. I didn't realize your defense had a "theme." Groovy. To the underlined - you actually stated all of the quotes above and they are quoted. I did interject info in brackets for clarity in point 7 and editorialized point 8 - but I don't think either of those "misrep" your case in any way.

So I'll ask again - are those the MAJOR points of your case? Yes or No?

Yes. I freely admit it isn't an airtight "case closed" type of case that is an auto-lynch of scum. This is more the secondary thoughts that occur to me after reading your posts again. At first pass, they seems pretty standard and reasonable......until I read again and try to look behind the words.

Verbal32 · July 22, 2013

I was hoping I might get you to accidentally vote for scum while you were in your tunnel. It was worth a shot.
wat?

That is your reason? Simply to try and get me to vote peace for some unproven reason?

No. That's obviously not my reason. I was obviously being snarky with you as your case is crap and your tunnel is an OBVIOUS tunnel. I have yet to determine if it's because you are being dumb, because you are scared of me, or because you are scum. Unless I determine you have ulterior motives, I'm going to treat this as Town tunneling Town and simply blow up your case so this doesn't remain a "distraction." Alternatively, I can turn this around on you as I did with Des. But I don't think you're scum. Yet.

Re: the bolded - as an FYI, the "your case is crap" opening statement isn't a good start. Am I tunneling? Maybe. And no, I'm not dumb. I hope I've proved that enough to you in our 1 game as scum together. I'm 6+ years deep into playing mafia - this ain't my first rodeo. The only player I'd consider myself scared of (if I was a townie) no longer plays mafia. She hasn't for a long time. So no, I'm not scared of you. Heh. I'm not scum, either, but that isn't immediately relevant.

Re: the underlined - You wish. While the turning on Des was brilliantly done by yourself, I'm not going to bury myself like Des did by falling for the pokes & prods to go overly emo and destroy my credibility. If your plan is to counter-case me, I'm eager to see what you've come up with.

Verbal32 · July 22, 2013

1. Struck me as trying to quickly gain the town cred by trying to figure out the vig/SK mystery at the time.

2. Cop-direction that I called out immediately - I don't like those types of plays, as they reek of scum.

3. Me questioning his faulty logic of having to shoot scum.

4. This is more a gut feel, and not a solid piece of evidence, I'll admit.

5. Initially I thought this might help his case a little[saying Des had that day and night to prove he's Town and to shoot scum], but then I'm thinking it was intentional.

6. offsite meta

7. pointing out how he's contradicting himself [i said scum did us a favor - he's trying to say I'm painting that kill in a "positive light"], which is a major scumtell usually.

8. Almost forgot - being super helpful

Before I address each point is this your case on me in a nutshell, Verb? I would hate to have missed anything.

Also, no.....you're misrepping the theme behind my case. I don't like how you have me quoted as if I actually said it like that. That would qualify as twisting my words to make them work better for you.

To the bolded - yeah. I anticipated the "misrep" defense which is why I asked you straight out. I didn't realize your defense had a "theme." Groovy. To the underlined - you actually stated all of the quotes above and they are quoted. I did interject info in brackets for clarity in point 7 and editorialized point 8 - but I don't think either of those "misrep" your case in any way.

Just saw this. Interesting choice of words. My defense? Where you pulling that from? I'm the one looking to run you up. My case on you (insubstantial as it may be) has a theme, which is why it isn't one of those clear-cut cases that are easy. You are not easy prey, so you require reading between the lines. I have no defense, because I'm not on the defensive. You are.

Interesting choice of words, indeed. ;-)

Yates · July 22, 2013

Just saw this. Interesting choice of words. My defense? Where you pulling that from?

Sorry - that should have said I didn't realize your CASE had a theme.

I'll get to the DEFENSE part of the show presently...

bgrishinko · July 22, 2013

These links make Razen feel Town to me:

Post 1

Post 2

Also, the Tiinker kill is interesting. I'm still looking for a reason for that one. No info lynch? One person that wouldn't want Tiinker killed, though, is Razen:

My boy Razen has a point.

Vote Cloud

Not a strong argument, to be sure, but something I'm weighing in consideration of the current Razen wagon. Obviously, Peace currently voting for Razen means something as well.

Also, how quickly we forget...

TL;DR: So yeah, Peace is actually tied to Cloud pretty tremendously. This makes Cloud a perfect info lynch for this thread. He flips scum, and that makes Peace look worse.

Clear distancing post/bus:

To me it looks like a frame up of me. If Cloud is scum and people believed my opinion of early distancing then his team may hope that Leelou flipping town would show my case invalid and therefore make him look less suspicious. If he was worried that he would be lynched before Leelou he would want her dead.

VOTE CLOUD

I hope that after I flip town you will be the next one to hang.

Vote Razen.

Sadly I have only one vote, otherwise I would have voted for all three of them.

Notice how Cloud FoS's Peace while voting for Razen - who had a couple of people calling him scummy at that point? Points less to Cloud distancing and more to Cloud trying to find a feasible counter wagon.

Vote: Peace

So I'm assuming this is the sad excuse for a case you want me to trust and lynch Peace? Caaaussse, I didn't see any other case made. In fact I went back and re-read Peace's Day 1 and 2 and he was nothing but consistent about thinking that Cloud was scum from early on. First you randomly interject Peace's name into a vote by Tiinker on Cloud that mentions Razen. Then you mention Despo's random linking of Cloud and Peace which was a stretch to begin with. Then your "clear distancing/bussing" post that is clear evidence is dying mafia WIFOM and isn't worth much of anything one way or another.

bgrishinko · July 22, 2013

So my question to you is....

What Case?

Verbal32 · July 22, 2013

He'll need more time - he's collecting either (1) a detailed defense for my case on him, point-by-point, or (2) he's collecting a complete countercase on why I'm scum and not him.

Stay tuned!

bgrishinko · July 22, 2013

Betchya he unvotes Peace and votes you.

Verbal32 · July 22, 2013

Betchya he unvotes Peace and votes you.

I'm not taking that wager, lol.

November 7th, 1606: Day 4 (CONCLUDED)

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