Rand's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[Guest JRoll]

Long time lurker.  Two Questions:

 

(1) Why does Rand have to switch bodies with Moridin?  I mean he's now Rand "freaking" Al'thor (an unofficial title), a person who can light a pipe with his thoughts.  If he can do that, why can't he think about healing himself (side wound, left arm, other things) and think about looking like Moridin.  If he's got these wonderful new abilities, maybe the pipe's not the first time he uses them.  It would certainly explain why that older unknown lady says something like "yes, you're doing what you need to;" could be he was making himself look like Moridin and Moridin look like his old body.  

 

(2) What if the pipe thing means Rand is dreaming?  Maybe he's still in an eternal struggle with the DO in the PoD (gotta love these abbreviations on the board) or the DO won or something.  I mean it's only in that dreamland where people can control things by thinking them.  The rest of the epilogue kind of negates that it's a dream and it wouldn't be very RJish, but it would be a heck of a hook.  Kind of harkening back to St. Elsewhere.  Or forshadowing depending on whether St. Elsewhere ended before whenever RJ wrote the epilogue.

[Hondo]

 

 I am absolutely convinced he no longer has the memories of his life as LTT. Which makes a lot of sense to me. It's a gift in many ways, it's also not necessary to remember that past life anymore to aid him in what he has to do. Whatever was causing the breakdown that 'merged' two lives of one soul into one body has been reverted. In any event, I'm pretty sure Rand doesn't have the memories anymore.

 

 

LTT's memories were a by-product of Rand's growing insanity from the Taint on Saidin.   Even after Saidin was cleansed, the male channelers were not cured.    Nyn cured one of the Ashaman and attempted to do the same for Rand but couldn't.   The taint was described as a black tumor with thorn-like projections into the brain.   

 

I know of no reason to think that Rand no longer has LTT's memories.   You may be convinced, but you offer absolutely no evidence.  

[Entreri]

The Wheel turns infinite amount of time, however it does not mean that everything repeats.  It may be that Rand has sealed Shai'tan off for good. 

 

 

I wonder if Lanfear is dead for good, given that she died in TAR in the flesh. 

[Shaolin]

I think people are missing the point. It wasn't freedom of choice that kept him from killing the DO, it was the lack of passion he saw in his reality. Everyone was complacent, there was no drive. All the humanity was stripped away because everyone was as "good" as possible. No desire to be better, no desire to fight for something they believed in. Which was the point of the LB, Rand realizing that it wasn't about winning, it was about not giving up and pushing that extra yard. Without the DO there was no hardship, so people never had to grow and they were missing that spark that makes them human. So the LB in the end wasn't Rand vs DO, it was Rand correcting the mistakes of people turning the wheel back to the way it was/ahead to the way it will be. So he was fighting to keep something to fight for for everyone else, if that makes sense.

 

As for the DO not knowing Lan was still alive, I think it was just the father of lies trying to cause Rand to despair to the point of quitting. Re DO knew the truth.

 

And for the pipe, I think Rand really needed a smoke so the Creator hooked him up, seeing as how he saved all of creation and all that.

 

No clue about why Moridin's body was left unguarded. That bothered me. Unless maybe Alivia was guarding him and was in on it, but that's pure speculation on my part.

 

I knew the body switch was coming. Like its been said here channeling is attached to the soul. I think crossing the streams of the OP and TP gave them access to each other's souls, so at the end when all were connected it only took a little push, whether conscious or not. The blending had been going on for like 8 books, so that really isn't a stretch.

 

I would love a Nakomi spin off book. Well, maybe not book, how about graphic novel? Or even just a bio paragraph?

 

And I agree about his death being part of the treaty so he couldn't reveal himself. Nice catch whoever posted that

[Suttree]

The Wheel turns infinite amount of time, however it does not mean that everything repeats. It may be that Rand has sealed Shai'tan off for good.

 

The details can change from turning to turning but the overall pattern stays. Something like sealing him for good doesn't fit with the cosmology.

 

Marcon Report - Sorilea (Paraphrased)

QUESTION

At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?

ROBERT JORDAN

"No...every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless."

[morkhon]

 

LTT's memories were a by-product of Rand's growing insanity from the Taint on Saidin.   Even after Saidin was cleansed, the male channelers were not cured.    Nyn cured one of the Ashaman and attempted to do the same for Rand but couldn't.   The taint was described as a black tumor with thorn-like projections into the brain.   

 

I know of no reason to think that Rand no longer has LTT's memories.   You may be convinced, but you offer absolutely no evidence.  

Well, the line 'Rand al'Thor--and just Rand al'Thor--' seems straightforward to me, anyway. And the fact that he made no reference to his life as LTT during that last part struck me as curious as well. 

 

And no, Nynaeve couldn't cure Rand's taint. But the Creator can probably do things Nynaeve can't. To me it's so obvious..he no longer needs the protection that those memories provided.

 

 

As far as his manipulation of the lighting the pipe...I took it as a new form of power. Not channeling as we understand it (through traditional saidin or saidar or the true power). When he forged the barrier again it says...'With this new form of the Power, Rand pulled together the rent that had been made here long ago by foolish men.' That's the power that he now has..Light itself.

 

 

 

By the way, since the saying goes that the Creator sealed away the Dark One at the moment of creation...is Rand the Creator? Is this the moment of creation? The paradox of a causeless cause is something we probably won't solve in a WOT forum. =cP

[Jon Paul]

I've never been a fan of the use of the True Power in sealing away the Dark One. It has never made any logical sense to me.

 

I've already dissented from Rand's decision not to kill the Dark One. I'm open to being convinced but I really doubt I will be.

 

But I have been thinking about the True Power and these are my (unstructured) thoughts.

 

I do not believe the Dark One is greater than the Pattern. He can royally screw it up, recreate it in his own vision, etc. But he can't make it simply cease to exisit. The Pattern is inifite. It's weave can vary though. And you don't want the Dark One "varying" it. He cannot break the Wheel nor slay the great serpent. He can only tie it up in funny shapes.

 

The Dragon is the focal point of the Pattern. That's what ta'veren is, it's a mechanism of the Pattern used to correct the weave. Rand was not the Creator's Avatar. He was the Pattern's avatar, he was the ultimate ta'veren. He was in a way the spoke upon which the Wheel spun (don't read too much metaphysics in to this yet, it's all just random thoughts right now).

 

I believe that the necessity of using the True Power to seal the Dark One is that, since he is a being of pure Chaos, to impose Order on him, is his Prison. The very act of weaving with the True Power is imposing order on it. Normally it serves the Dark One's purpose when it is done in the Pattern because it's a foreign energy that's mutilating the pattern. But imposing order to it, outside the Pattern, is bad, bad, bad for the Dark On, with the True Source acting like the glue.

 

The Dark One can't fight what Rand was doing because an inherently superior entity (almost the Pattern given conciousness) was imposing Order, the very antithesis of the Dark One, on him.

 

Like... The True Power is like untied and unlaced shoe-laces. And Rand comes along and threads them through the shoes and ties them. Imposing order on them!

 

Essentially this comes down to: if Mat had been given charge of defeating the Dark One he would have won the Last Battle whilst discussing boots with Settale.

[Entreri]

"He wove something majsetic, a pattern of interlaced saidar and saidin in their pure forms. Not Fire, not Spirit, not Water, not Earth, not Air. Purity. Light itself. This didn't repair, it didn't patch, it forged anew."

[Suttree]

"He wove something majsetic, a pattern of interlaced saidar and saidin in their pure forms. Not Fire, not Spirit, not Water, not Earth, not Air. Purity. Light itself. This didn't repair, it didn't patch, it forged anew."

 

Which happens every time.

 

Interview: Nov 11th, 1997

Barnes and Noble Chat (Verbatim)

Brandon from Mission Viejo

Mr. Jordan, It's fairly common knowledge that the Dark One was bound by the Creator outside of the Pattern at the moment of creation. Would it then be safe to assume, after concepts brought to light in the new release, that the world before the opening of the prison never knew true evil? If so, then was each age before the opening of the Age of Legends different facets of some utopia? As well, without major conflict between good and evil, what caused ages to pass? Thanks.

Robert Jordan

Given that time is cyclic, you must assume that there is a time when the prison that holds the Dark One is whole and unbroken. There is a time when a hole is drilled into that prison and it is thus open to that degree. And there is a time when the opening has been patched in a make-shift manner. But following this line the cyclic nature of time means that we have at some time in the future inevitably a whole and unbroken prison again. Unless of course, the Dark One breaks free in which case all bets are off, kick over the table and run for the window.

[morkhon]

 

I've already dissented from Rand's decision not to kill the Dark One. I'm open to being convinced but I really doubt I will be.

 

I didn't mind him not killing the DO. Evil -is- necessary. People need the free will to make the choice. However...there's some inconsistencies here. It's not like evil doesn't exist with the DO sealed away. He's not the source of all evil, is he? How can he be when he's sealed and has no impact on the pattern? So even if he was killed...does that eliminate all evil? I wouldn't think so. Just whatever influence he has in the brief time in which the bore is drilled. All the other times of the turning of the wheel...he might as well be dead anyway, right? So from a story standpoint...it's a little sketchy.

[Hellgrammite]

I remembered reading this some years ago:

 

"[RJ] also spoke for quite some time on the splitting of the One Power into male and female halves, and on the disharmony produced when they don't work together.. this came across as one of the core elements in the origin of WOT. (re: Yin/Yang - leaving out the little dots in the symbol is an intentional representation of the lack of harmony between male/female Power in Randland)" [Emmet O'Brien, Dublin talk, 11/93].

 

Could this be an explanation for the single Saa in his eye now that everything is balanced again for men and women?

Or could it represent the proper balance of good and evil, that we are who we are as humans when good and evil are represented in all of us?

 

Edit:  also, I wonder if the whole "to live you have to die" that we all thought referred to surviving the last battle.  But what if it really meant that in order to live a normal, happy life,  everyone would have to think he was dead so that he could live in anonymity?

And the pipe lighting could have been him as the creator saying "let there be light, and it was".  Resurrected like Jesus?  Jordan said he wanted to write about what it would be like if you found out that you had to save the world.

[papertiger]

Yeah the whole "die to live" thing really threw me off until we saw the bond between Rand and Ishy, which is when the body swap became the most logical conclusion.

 

 

That notion of opposition between the forms of the OP could almost be said to inform the reality of that world, which might be a metaphysical justification for all the inter-gender bickering. 

 

 

That single saa might also be a clue to what's so strange about Aviendha's children. Haven't done a re-read so I don't remember her visions from Rhuidean so well. I would imagine that the barriers of the OP will slowly break down in the 4th Age until the ability to channel disappears completely.

[Guest Patrick LaPete]

Hey all... Another long time lurker first time poster here. Just finished last night. I'm loving reading the commentaries of folks as invested in this series as I am.

 

My issues with the epilogue are similar to other opinions voiced here.

 

1. The chillaxed opinions of everyone over Rands "death".

and 2. The chillaxed opinion of Rand as he rides off into the sunset.

 

As i was reading your comments "Bleh" I had a thought that what if it wasnt Rand who had carried Moridin's body out, But that the body swap had already occured and Moridin in Rand's body was carrying Rand out. But that invalidates the Rand POV where he sees Nakomi/the creator.

 

My other issue with the ending comes in with my thoughts on death in general. To me a noble sacrifice is one of the best ways to go out of the world. Knowing you're going to die, accepting it and choosing to continue despite having multiple opportunities of compromising/giving in/ and letting evil win. I hate to bring up the biblical comparrison but it is completely analogous. FYI I'm not Catholic but I do believe that christ was a Man who achieved some level of enlightenment. Just so folks know I'm not thumping the bible, but giving perspectives on the historical figure and the allegory that Jordan formed.

 

What if Christ woke up... left the tomb and opened up a home improvement company in Gallilee. To me it would almost invalidate the sacrifice. Yes the bible states that he got up left the tomb and rose to heaven 3 days later, but he was still "dead" for all intents and purposes. Some could certainly argue that Christs sacrifice was invalid anyway because "sin" still exists in the world. For me Rand waking up in Moradin's body getting dressed and riding off into the sunset, kinda invalidates the sacrifice. Yes some could argue that it's the Creator's gift to allow Rand the chance to see the world he just saved in a new visage that puts him off others radar. But it must make one think about "How can someone live a 'normal life' after being the savior of the world." Wouldnt you want to be involved again? How could he stay away from his children and your wife who is a queen and NOT get involved in the world. Sure he has two others he could *ehem* BUMP into, but if the world is still spinning, how can you not get involved? If Andor is suddenly beset, or the aiel start to go down the path Aviendha foresaw, or if the Seanchan decide to still conquer the world, how could you not go to your loves and not get invovled.

 

I enjoyed the book and the series thouroghly but this epilogue has made me deeply ponder. Sorry for the dissertation. We now return you to your commentary already in progress.

[Tom Gould]

I would like to throw in a small opinion about Rand's story arc. In the beginning of AMOL he gathered all of the nations save the seanchan, and he had them sign a treaty of peace based on his death. His condititon for saving the world was their agreeing to have peace. Later on, he brought the seanchan on board. The reason he just got up and left was due to the treaty. If the nations found him alive would the treaty hold. He finally brought a sense of peace to the world. Cadsuane knew this and I think that is why she kep quiet. Min, Ave, and Elayne know his is fine, and he will be with them.

[Richmond]

I would like to throw in a small opinion about Rand's story arc. In the beginning of AMOL he gathered all of the nations save the seanchan, and he had them sign a treaty of peace based on his death. His condititon for saving the world was their agreeing to have peace. Later on, he brought the seanchan on board. The reason he just got up and left was due to the treaty. If the nations found him alive would the treaty hold. He finally brought a sense of peace to the world. Cadsuane knew this and I think that is why she kep quiet. Min, Ave, and Elayne know his is fine, and he will be with them.

 

Yeah, i thought this was fairly obvious.  Cadsuane inherently understands that but also says something along the lines of it being good information to save for later.  As in, use it to leverage a more favorable position with Elayne and/or the Aiel (assuming Aviendha ends up in a leadership position).  Or perhaps even Perrin/Faile, knowing that Rand would probably reveal himself to his old friend later.

[Hellgrammite]

I would like to throw in a small opinion about Rand's story arc. In the beginning of AMOL he gathered all of the nations save the seanchan, and he had them sign a treaty of peace based on his death. His condititon for saving the world was their agreeing to have peace. Later on, he brought the seanchan on board. The reason he just got up and left was due to the treaty. If the nations found him alive would the treaty hold. He finally brought a sense of peace to the world. Cadsuane knew this and I think that is why she kep quiet. Min, Ave, and Elayne know his is fine, and he will be with them.

You're right.  He could hardly make the deal and "die for their sins" and then show up at the wake.

[Tom Gould]

I think Rand has his memories intact--complete with lews. I think when it says Rand just Rand woke up is meaning the title of the Dragon Reborn is gone. He is no longer the dragon. The dragin is not needed. The DO is sealed behind a wall of light. Rand doesn't have to carry the title Dragon Reborn and all of the responsilibility it entails anymore.

[Tom Gould]

To follow up Rand Defeated the DO because of will. Perhaps somehow now Rand truly understand power, and he has such strong "will", he can will anything to happen?

[ShellK]

 

 

The overall message is that if Rand kills the Dark One he kills all evil in the world. Thereby removing the option to choose evil from everyones lives. This means that they lose their free will and are nothing but puppets.

But the Dark One is no longer touching the Pattern. The Wheel still spins, the Pattern still weaves.

 

There is both good and evil in their world. Free will and choice remain.

 

Yet the Dark One does not.

 

Rand's just doomed the world to another cycle and another battle.

I think that's the whole point, the inevitability of the situation.

 

Kill the dark one? I was slight incredulous when I was reading that. To me, that's like trying to kill Fear.

 

I thought the imagined world without the Dark One was appropriate, It was a completely new world, not the one after the Last Battle, So these people would have never known the negative emotions associated with the Dark One, ie Fear, Hate, Jealousy, Anger. I find the decision to not "Kill" the Dark One appropriate.

 

It seems apparent to me that although the Dark One is said to exist outside of the Pattern, It is also still very much apart of the Pattern. That the True Power co exists with Saidar and Saidin as making up the pattern. Which to me fits with the notion that the Bore was drilled by channellers trying to find a new source of power. If the True Power had not been part of the Pattern or at least connected then how could anyone possibly have known to go looking for it.

 

 

I have a question regarding the final scene with Rand, He reaches for the One Power and find he has no ability anymore, But then wills his pipe to ignite? What exactly is going on there? Is this alluding to the fact he no longer requires the One Power and weaving it to still have abilities to create and destroy? Or is he something else now?

 

I just posted this a few mins ago in another topic. But this is my theory. 

 

People keep referring to what Rand does with the OP. I believe that it's not him "bending reality" or anything that has to do with the pattern. I think it's because of when he was channeling all 3 powers at once in Shayol Ghul has allowed him to do what the Aes Sedai were attempting to do in the Age of Legends when opening the bore, to use 1 Universal power (Saidin and Saidar, because the True Power is both halves combined but channeled through the Dark One). He doesn't feel the OP or having to reach for it because it's already a part of him. In the end it's different because the Dark One is removed as the "Middle man". Think about it, nobody ever sensed the True Power being channeled. It's not some "matrix" version of bending reality.

[Siraaj]

I think Rand simply goofed when he didn't kill the Dark One.  He assumed killing the Dark One was equal to removing free will.  In reality, it could have been a two-step process, the first in killing the DO and the second using the combined resources of the One Power and the True Source with Callandor to remove free will.  The Dark One wasn't really essence of evil so much as he was an option for evil, but there were plenty of ways one could still be "evil" while walking in the Light (see the Children of the Light for more details).

 

Throughout the series (and i believe I recall RJ mentioning this), the characters often have assumptions they take as fact which are totally wrong (Mat received quite a bit of it during the discussion of the Horn of Valere).

 

On Rand's body switch, not sure what was left behind in RJ's notes, but it seems a conversation between Rand and the Creator was missing where we move from Rand and Moridin both dying to Rand in a new body while Moridin gets the oblivion he wanted.

[Owyn]

So, I am just curious if anyone has commenting on the Creator speaking to Rand just before he goes into Shayol Ghul?  I thought that was very interesting.

[Hellgrammite]

I think Rand simply goofed when he didn't kill the Dark One.  He assumed killing the Dark One was equal to removing free will.  In reality, it could have been a two-step process, the first in killing the DO and the second using the combined resources of the One Power and the True Source with Callandor to remove free will.  The Dark One wasn't really essence of evil so much as he was an option for evil, but there were plenty of ways one could still be "evil" while walking in the Light (see the Children of the Light for more details).

Your example is invalid because the dark one exists in that world.  And as we have learned from church incidents, being a member of a group in no way means that you walk in the light.

[Siraaj]

 

 

I think Rand simply goofed when he didn't kill the Dark One. He assumed killing the Dark One was equal to removing free will. In reality, it could have been a two-step process, the first in killing the DO and the second using the combined resources of the One Power and the True Source with Callandor to remove free will. The Dark One wasn't really essence of evil so much as he was an option for evil, but there were plenty of ways one could still be "evil" while walking in the Light (see the Children of the Light for more details).

Your example is invalid because the dark one exists in that world. And as we have learned from church incidents, being a member of a group in no way means that you walk in the light.

Not sure i follow on example being invalid. My hypothesis is Rand believed the lack of free will resulted from killing the Dark One in his make believe world, but it may simply be a world where Rand forced his version of how things should be, the DO's execution being happenstance.

[Shaolin]

Whitecloaks are only a problem because they label everyone darkfriend. No dark, no darkfriends, no children

[papertiger]

What about Fain/Mordeth/Ordeith/Sashimi?

 

He's pure evil that manifested itself independently of the DO. Doesn't that mean that Rand could kill the DO but leave choice, and the chance for evil, to exist in the 4th Age.