Prophecy; New and Fulfilled. (Full Spoilers)

[Suttree]

@bartes

 

That is not correct. The authors have clearly stated all prophecies will be fulfilled. They just don't always mean what you think.

 

DARRELL WYATT

Did the Shadow Prophecy at the end of Towers of Midnight come to pass? If so can you explain as I did not recognize it.

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Everything in it happened, but not exactly as many would have interpreted.

[bartes123]

Now, that is something, i didn't know :(

Well, i think that Mr Sanderson know quite well about the prophecies. But does he revealed what is the meaning of that particular prophecie?

So, the Broken Wolf was truly consumed by the Midnight Towers? What are then the midnight towers? Who is the Broken Wolf if not Logain Ablar? Who is the Fallen Blacksmith and what is his pride? And when came that pride last days?

Im so confused now :(

[CanUFeelTheLove?]

Edit - misread

[Suttree]

We know the Broken Wolf is Hopper per Brandon and the Towers represented the forsaken per Egwene's dream.

[bartes123]

Hopper is the broken wolf?? Brandon did say that? But that doesn't have no sense. Hopper was no important to the shadows imo. He wasn't consumed by any forsaken, he was killed by slayer.

 

Did mr Sanderson reveald anything else?

[Suttree]

Interview: 2013

Twitter 2013 (WoT) (Verbatim)

sleepinghour (23 January 2013)

Who was the Broken Wolf?

Brandon Sanderson (23 January 2013)

Perrin's spirit guide. Note that the "he" in the next sentence does not refer to the same creature.

 

Darrell Wyatt

Did the Shadow Prophecy at the end of Towers of Midnight come to pass? If so can you explain as I did not recognize it.

 

Brandon Sanderson

Everything in it happened, but not exactly as many would have interpreted.

 

Lots of good stuff in the Theoryland Interview Database

 

http://www.theoryland.com/wheel-of-time-interview-search.php

 

 

[bartes123]

 

Interview: 2013

Twitter 2013 (WoT) (Verbatim)

sleepinghour (23 January 2013)

Who was the Broken Wolf?

Brandon Sanderson (23 January 2013)

Perrin's spirit guide. Note that the "he" in the next sentence does not refer to the same creature.

 

 

"Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom

Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And

his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and

shall shake their very will itself."

 

Well, why didn't he simply write, that Broken Wolf is Hooper? Why another riddle - Perrin's Spirit quide? Serious? That's first problem...

And second problem - which "he"? The Broken Wolf and period? Or, The Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known and period? Or maybe The Broken Wolf shall fall and be consumed by Midnight Towers and period here?

If that so, then whose destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of man??? Obviously not Hoopers destruction, for as I know - noone except Perrin and Faile know about Hooper...

Quite tricky, dont you think?

 

"(...)

the last days of the Fallen

Blacksmith’s pride shall come. "

 

Is that Perrin? Is his pride the same thing as something that he is proud of? (Im from Poland, and don't know engilsh as much as i wanna know) Maybe it is about killing woman, as he snap Lanfears neck?

[wRAR]

And second problem - which "he"? The Broken Wolf and period? Or, The Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known and period? Or maybe The Broken Wolf shall fall and be consumed by Midnight Towers and period here?

 

 

If that so, then whose destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of man??? Obviously not Hoopers destruction, for as I know - noone except Perrin and Faile know about Hooper...

Quite tricky, dont you think?

"Note that the "he" in the next sentence does not refer to the same creature."

[FarShainMael]

Someone (I forget who, sorry) pointed out that "the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith’s pride shall come" may be interpreted in two ways:

 

1. Last days of the Fallen Blacksmith

or

2. Last days of his pride (in being a blacksmith). In other words, he gives up his identity as a blacksmith and becomes something else - in this case, a leader of men.

 

In the same way, others as well as myself have pointed out that 'his destruction' may mean destruction of him or by him, and doesn't have to mean death.

 

BS has stated that these two sentences in the prophecy:

"Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers.

 

And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself."

 

do not refer to the same individual - i.e., the Broken Wolf is not the one whose destruction will shake men. So I interpreted 'his destruction' as being Mat's destruction of enemies with those cannon. Recall Birgitte's reaction to them in ToM29.

 

Lots more discussion here:

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/76228-dark-prophecy-from-tom/

[bartes123]

Well, first of all - I simply don't buy it, that Hopper is the Broken Wolf. No Midnight Towers did ever consumed him, and he fall by Slayers Arrow, not by forsaken's hand.

And second - if BS is right the sentence:  And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself." could told about anyone, you wish - well even Demandred fits it quite well - his death did shaked whe will of his men. Ituralde destruction, Bashere destruction, well even Lan's destruction did bring fear and sorrow. My bet is still on Logain Ablar - once he was called like a wolf, he was known to death (after he was tamed), and when the Towers Of Midnight consumed him (turn him) that will bring sorrow and shake the will of his men (Ashamans).

 

It is quite tricky when we talk about prophecies. Especially about that one, that BS said it is fullfilled. As for now, I was thinking, that fulfilled the shadow prophecy is strictly bind to Rands failure. Now BS is said, that Rand might win (actually he does) and yet, the Shadows Prophecy is still fulfilled. But in the books, there is said also, that Rand must fulfilled other prophecies (blood on Shayol Ghoul, Callandor, Shaenchans), because if not - he have no chance for winning. 

 

In the other words - even fulfilled of all right prophecies, did not guarantees victory... Neither Rand nor the Dark One...

 

sorry for my english... :(

[wRAR]

Well, first of all - I simply don't buy it, that Hopper is the Broken Wolf.

You don't have other options.

[bartes123]

 

Well, first of all - I simply don't buy it, that Hopper is the Broken Wolf.

You don't have other options.

 

Yea, but  even so, I  feel somehow cheated ;/

[mbuehner]

 

 

Well, first of all - I simply don't buy it, that Hopper is the Broken Wolf.

You don't have other options.

 

Yea, but  even so, I  feel somehow cheated ;/

I feel cheated with this prophecy as well. A lot of retcon to get it to make ANY sense, and even then... If it hadn't of been such a huge part of ToM i wouldn't care, but come on.

[Guest Mara R]

Several people have voiced their opinion about the dark one 'not being the enemy' (several pages back now). Many people have made  good points on both sides but I felt the need to add my two cents.

 

It seems to me that the books had to end exactly the way they did, not only to keep the Wheel from breaking but also because to do otherwise would be to become just like the dark one. Think about this: why is compulsion considered evil, worse than rape or murder? Because it takes away a persons free will in a way very few people can fight. Why is forcing a channeler to turn to the dark evil? Because you can fight it all you want, but eventually you WILL turn. There is no other outcome.

 

If Rand had killed the dark one, he would be forcing everyone to be good. There wouldn't even be anything to fight against. No choice. How different would the Aiel be, had they not needed to fight to survive? What would Aviendha and Rand's relationship have been like had she not had her firey temper? What kind of queen would Elayne have become had she not gone through everything she had, her struggles making her a stronger, more well rounded woman. Or Cadsuane? What would she be like? Or Thom?

 

It is our struggles that forge us into stronger, and often better people. In the World of the Wheel the dark one is the source of struggle and conflict, and so as long as  is contained he truely isn't the enemy.

 

*gets off of soap box*

[sVieira151]

I think the point some people made was why was the Dark One necessary to allow free will? The only reason we are given (that I can find is) is just that he is necessary, which is a very... religious answer. A lot of people are questioning that reason, and they are questioning how much influence the Dark One has in his various states compared to his not being there at all. I suppose it's one step away from wondering what would happen if Rand destroyed before the Dark One and the Creator, before leaving the pattern to go on as it wills, and questioning why what would happen would happen. 

 

I am content with the reasoning in that, being an un-religious person, due to the presence of gods (opposed to what I believe to be real life), or god-like beings, there will be problems with any logical conclusions that are made by us, since we live in a godless existence (or so I believe, though I respect others beliefs). I don't believe logic can apply to religion, as there will always be a break down in logic along the way at some point, and the same applies to when it is applied to the fictional world of WoT. In the real world, gods/god-like beings aren't required for free will, but in WoT, they are required. The reasons why aren't explained and any explanations brought forth are murky and have some holes, but that is because there are no real reasons. It is stated that the Dark One is the opposite of the Creator, and he must be there to allow the world to work as ours does. 

 

This doesn't really fit with the entire explanations of the Wheel and all the reasoning RJ brought, but it is the only... 'logical' answer I can find.

 

(There is also the point that RJ intended the 3rd Age as a past and future to our world, but due to the fact it is a work of fiction, I discard this point).

[mbuehner]

I think what is suggested is that the Dark One is the product of free will at least as much as the source of evil.  Hence, in order to destroy the DO you would need to destroy the free will that essentially creates him.

 

And of course its a religious argument, its a question of cosmology.  Any time you're talking about why there is something instead of nothing you're going to be ultimately talking philosophy instead of science.

[sVieira151]

That is what is suggested? I didn't see it like that. 

 

I spent the last 5 minutes trying to say something to the second paragraph, but I just couldn't think of anything to say further. This is a regular problem I have with entering discussions and arguments. Damnit. 

[mbuehner]

That is what is suggested? I didn't see it like that. 

 

Fair enough, which is why i said suggested, not plainly stated. I don't fault anyone for seeing it differently. To me the logic that to destroy the DO you must destroy free will strongly suggests that free will is what creates and sustains the DO. Otherwise the connection between the two that Rand observed doesn't make a lot of sense.

[Guest Mara R]

I understand all of these points completely (although I myself am religious), my response was meant to be taken as if by someone speaking from an in-world point of view (as opposed to that of a reader discussing a work of fiction), as I feel looking at it that way is the only it could ever make total complete sense.

[Terazed]

I think what is suggested is that the Dark One is the product of free will at least as much as the source of evil.  Hence, in order to destroy the DO you would need to destroy the free will that essentially creates him.

 

And of course its a religious argument, its a question of cosmology.  Any time you're talking about why there is something instead of nothing you're going to be ultimately talking philosophy instead of science.

 

There is a lot of Eastern Spiritualism and mythology in WOT.  In Eastern religion the ultimate reality is Brahman which is outside of time and space but also is all of time and space (the wheel).  The concepts of a creator and a DO are lower orders of reality.  Arthur Schopenhauer is the only Western Philosopher to look into this in 'The World as Will and Representation'.  The Will corresponds to Brahman and the wheel  (the wheel weaves as the wheel WILLS).  We are limited in that we are only capable in seeing and understanding what our brain is capable of processing so we can not see the Will which is "thing in itself", we only see a representation of reality.  This is of course the aiel concept of the life as a dream.  In TAR a person must realize that everything is just representation in order to manipulate it.  We can not conceptualize the Will but we can feel the Will as urges from the subconscious such as to love, hate, create, destroy, and of course most importantly the will to survive.  Both Schopenhauer and Buddhism believe the way to enlightenment is through aestheticism, denying the Will, but that does not mean destroying the Will.  Rand is able to pierce the vale and achieves enlightenment by overcoming his will to survive through compassion (Egwene achieves something similar).  From that vantage he learns that there is no way to separate and destroy the darker aspects of the Will (the DO) from the lighter aspects (the creator).  In the end there is only the Will which is indivisible.  An individual must learn to control the darker aspects of the Will without giving up it's creative aspects.

Here is a quote from another work where a character is in the same dilemma.  Madness=the Will.

 

Madness! Madness! Everywhere madness! Wherever I look searchingly in city and world chronicles, to seek out the reason why, till they draw blood, people torment and flay each other in useless, foolish anger! No-one has reward or thanks for it: driven to flight, he thinks he is hunting; hears not his own cry of pain; when he digs into his own flesh he thinks he is giving himself pleasure! Who will give it its name? It is the old madness, without which nothing can happen, nothing whatever! If it halts somewhere in its course it is only to gain new strength in sleep: suddenly it awakens then see who can master it!..But one evening late,to prevent a mishap caused by youthful ardour, a man knows not what to do; a cobbler in his shop plucks at the thread of madness: how soon in alleys and streets it begins to rage! Man, woman, journeyman, and child fall upon each other as if crazed and blind; and if madness prevails, it must now rain blows, with cuts, blows, and thrashings to quench the fire of anger. God knows how that befell! A goblin must have helped: a glow-worm could not find its mate;it set the trouble in motion. It was the elder-tree: Midsummer Eve!But now has come Midsummer Day! Now let us see how Hans Sachs manages finely to guide the madness so as to perform a nobler work: for if madness won't leave us in peace even here in Nuremberg,then let it be in the service of such works as are seldom successful in plain activities and never so without a touch of madness.