What would you do if you were a male channeler in WoT?

[Suttree]

@Hagz

 

Thanks for pulling quotes. It really helps the discussion. Thing is none of those really dispute the point Mr Ares was making. Characters can certainly believe on thing and have it not be true. What happens with characters we see severed in fact mostly doesn't follow those quotes. If they find a purpose they can survive.

[Hagazussa]

Thanks for pulling quotes. It really helps the discussion. Thing is none

of those really dispute the point Mr Ares was making. Characters can

certainly believe on thing and have it not be true. What happens with

characters we see severed in fact mostly doesn't follow those quotes. If

they find a purpose they can survive.

 

First of all the characters in the books that survive all are sort of special cases, Siuan and Leane know there is a good chance that what they are involved in will get them stilled, or at least Siuan know this, they have had years to prepare for that possibility, but even Siuan say when she is healed that being stilled was not life, she did not survive to be happy she survived for she felt she needed to to continue her work. Also both of them where only severed for a few months while most gentled men last a couple of years and then they where healed in which case the problem go away, we do not know how they would hold up a few years down the line, especially Leane. Logain to, he was on the brink of death and he only had revenge keeping him going, revenge for what had been done to him, and he to was healed, he did not find something permanent to live for, he was healed and then he should be fine. The three Aes Sedai that Rand stills, nothing say that they where happy, in fact it say that one of them wanted to die, but they did get care and comfort and again they where healed just a few months down the line so these six do not really count, that leaves one who have managed to find a happy life after loosing her ability to Channel, and that is completely in line with what everyone say, that those that find something to live for, with women it is often a husband and children can survive.

 

Now we can look at all the evidence in the books and assume that absolutely everyone in the books are wrong, most severed channelers get over it and survive and are happy, but there are no proof or indication of that, even Jordan himself in the quote I provided say most gentled men die. Every time severing is mentioned be it by channelers or the general population it is repeated as common knowledge that while it is possible to survive, most loose the will to live. I see it as less likely that every mention of it in the book is wrong and just based on wrong information in the books than that most is okey after a while something there is absolutely no indication of.

[Suttree]

Now we can look at all the evidence in the books and assume that absolutely everyone in the books are wrong, most severed channelers get over it and survive and are happy, but there are no proof or indication of that, even Jordan himself in the quote I provided say most gentled men die.

That's just the thing though. The evidence in the book doesn't say what you are claiming it does. We have some people who have never studied the issue that have an opinion but the characters we see show different. The fact that those who find something to live for survive backs our side of the discussion.

 

Also as was stated a comic doesn't count. There is nothing to show that 99% of cases don't survive as you claimed. In fact from what we see we know that isn't true.

[Hagazussa]

That's just the thing though. The evidence in the book doesn't say what

you are claiming it does. We have some people who have never studied the

issue that have an opinion but the characters we see show different.

 

I disagree, the Aes Sedai have a fair amount of knowledge of these things and they are completely consistent on it, it is not something that a few have heard in a rumor somewhere, it is treated like absolute fact. Also the characters in the books who are severed are all but one special cases and they get healed relatively quickly, and also most of them do not show different, the Aes Sedai Rand stilled wanted to die, Logain was near death several times and wanted to die and only managed to survive due to a lust for revenge, and Siuan did not consider her existence without the Power to be life, but she survived because she had to, and then she was healed. Saying that that group of characters are representative for how most severed channelers react becomes completely wrong since they are all special cases, it is like saying that in Marvel bullets are not harmful since they do not kill Wolverine.

 

So yes one can assume every single character who have thought or said anything about severing in the books are wrong and have no idea what they are talking about and go with an assumption that is never mentioned and never indicated, but that do not seam to be the most logical way to look at it to me.

 

Also as was stated a comic doesn't count.

 

First off all it was not in the comic itself, it was in Jordan's foreword that that we find that quote. Now off course one can assume he completely changed one aspect of his setting just for that foreword but that seam very little likely to me since he among other things where on those who made the comic books on every little detail, why would he then change something like how many die or live from severing in a foreword he himself have written. Also I get why the comics themselves do not count, as Jordan did not write those, but here we are talking about a foreword that Jordan himself wrote, and Jordan's own writings should count even if what it is a foreword to do not.

 

There is nothing to show that 99% of cases don't survive as you claimed. In fact from what we see we know that isn't true.

 

We do not know the exact ratio but we know most do not survive, and a few special cases in a series of books where about every named character is doing something that is never done before is hardly evidence on the opposite.

[Suttree]

Ok not going in circles on this anymore but far from what you say above it certainly is "indicated" they can survive if they have a reason to live. That is all we have said and now you've moved the goal posts a fair bit from your original take.

 

Also you keep mentioning what AS think and we have established they don't study it. In fact they do the opposite and bury there heads in the sand. Shrug. Agree to disagree.

[Hagazussa]

I think perhaps some of our disagreement is more in miscommunication then for I have never claimed that a severed channeler can not survive given proper care or motivation, I have said that most do not as such care is not given and that since it is not given then what the former male channelers are left with are a fate worse than death, I have however never said they can not get better with care, but for that to happen the care have to be actually given.

 

But yes let us agree to disagree, there is no point in going on and on on points we will never agree on. Thank you both for the debate though, it have been fun. I think a debate with someone with another view is always interesting and whatever the debate eventually lead to agreement or not, it makes both parties examine what they think about the matter. Also in this case the debate have given me some ideas for a game session I a planning for my RPG group in a completely different setting so I have to thank you both for that as well. I have really enjoyed our conversation.

[Mr Ares]

 

Channeling is a matter of genetics and the soul. That doesn't mean that

you are cutting off a part of a soul when you sever someone.

 

Something that is an ability given because of the nature of the soul, which are then quite literary cut out, that would leave it to be a fair assumption that the soul gets cut, though off course the damage do heal between incarnation. Channeling is an ability given due to a spiritual condition of the soul, when that condition is then cut of that is cutting off a peace of the soul.

Again, it is not "quite literally" cut out, that's what you've made up. You are cutting off their connection to the Source.

 

I think my way is best. Tough love. You'll never get people to make the

best of themselves by mollycoddling them. If you can survive my tuition,

you can survive damn near anything the world will throw at you.

 

I think respect and trying to see others situation though their eyes is a better solution to help anyone, and also to respect that others might have other wishes for their lives then oneself.

I fail to see how it helps people to give validation to worthless opinions, and respect to those undeserving of it. Seeing things through other peoples eyes has taught me that most people do not see as clearly as I do. Listening to the opinions of others has taught me that they tend not to be as well thought out as my own. Rather than just lie back with a sense of smug superiority, I also help people. Opinions are not automatically worthy of respect, nor are other people. An opinion that can be defended is worth more than one that can't be.

 

Of course, we are talking about gentling to avoid the taint - on other

words, the equivalent of shooting someone in the head as that represents

their only hope of survival, however slim.

 

Well take lobotomy as an example instead. You have someone who is completely out of control. You are in the 1940's so you have no other options, either you do an operation that have a decent chance of giving someone a normal life afterwards, but who also stand a good chance of leaving them dead or a vegetable, is it the right to go in and destroy a piece of someone's brain against their consent if the patient will rather just stay locked up? You have the best of intentions, and if it works the outcome for the patient is allot better, but if you fail you leave your patient dead or in a horrible condition. That is the point here, not chances of survival, but whatever or not it is okey to force one's own idea that life is always better than death on someone else who think otherwise.

The patient staying locked up is not an option. Do you lobotomise or execute? If someone wants to choose death, they have that option. No-one is having life forced on them.

 

As for the people who consider it a death sentence, bear in mind that

they are the same people who make several unwarranted assumptions and

are known to avoid those who have been cut off from the Source because

it makes them uncomfortable.

 

Yeah and that channelers are made so uncomfortable by seeing someone who have been severed that they do not dare go near them is an good indication for just how bad it is, it makes everyone else who could be put through it quiver just to think about it.

Yes, but it also means they avoid making a detailed study of it. That's precisely the problem - they say it's bad, but make no attempt to study the problem, and thus are unaware of how bad it is, how common it is to survive, to what extent people recover, what the best help to give is. In other words, they lack all the information that you would need to make your case.

 

In other words, we have nothing reliable to say how much of a death

sentence it truly is. Now, look at those who have been stilled, gentled

or burnt out over the course of or prior to the series. None are killed

by the condition - they are either executed shortly afterwards, or they

are able to recover to the extent they become functional and live happy,

healthy and normal lives. Logain, Siuan, Leane, Setalle, Ronaille,

Irgain and Sashalle all put the lie to your desire to characterise the

condition as years of misery until you die.

 

First off all records are kept in the WoT world and it is a generally accepted fact that most severed channelers die, it is not something someone have just made up, everyone, from every area that have heard of it do have that assumption. Now To the characters you mention that are supposed to prove that I am wrong according to you. Logain is in terrible condition for most of the time he is gentled, he do manage to perk up for short periods but generally lead a miserable existence until he is healed. Siuan and Leane manage to keep going because if they do not the world will end and that is pretty powerful motivation. Now also Siuan also tell Nyn after she is healed that she had been given back her life, that while she had tried to keep her spirit up being stilled was not living. Also Siuan and Leane is left severed for only a few months before they are healed, we do not know how long they would have held up in the long run. Now as for the three that Rand stills, the Aiel care for them and try to get them to survive, still it is mentioned that Irgain, I think it was her, it could have been one of the other two, wished she was dead. yes they worked when told to do something they did it, that do not mean they where happy. That leaves Setalle as the only one who have managed to get over loosing her ability and have a happy life despite of it long time.

A "generally accepted fact" can still be untrue. All you are saying is that most people believe something to be true, not that there is actually evidence to support it being true. If Irgain truly wanted to be dead, she would make a serious attempt to kill herself. If she hasn't, one can only conclude that she does not want to be dead. Same for all the characters - they want to live. So they live lives blighted by depression - who doesn't? It might not be an easy cross to bear, but it can be borne. Point is, in all cases we see that they can recover, at least to some degree, and we see no-one in the series who is severed and decides they really would rather be dead (actions speak louder than words). It should also be pointed out that Irgain doesn't wish she was dead: "Very likely Irgain wished she also were dead" That's an assessment from an outside viewpoint, not an expression of the characters own wishes.

 

Precisely no-one supports it. That's not "most people don't get better".

It's "most people might have bad days, but are capable of recovering".

We see no-one who fails to recover. We have no reliable information

about what the recovery rate is, only anecdotal statements from

unreliable sources.

 

Well except everything that is written in the books which do support my view. What is not supported is the view that severing is no big deal, it just hurt a little and then people have bad days but can shrug it off. Nothing support that view. And yes of the severed characters exactly one recovers, the others manage to hang in there for a while, most of them a few short months and usually in rather bad condition. Your views are just not supported by what is in the books, which state black on white that yes most severed channelers die. And also if you want a source for the information that is not a in character point of view then look at Jordan's own introduction to the comics where it say the following

"No big deal" is a straw man, and not representative of my views. I accept that it's a serious problem, but I think you drastically overstate the degree to which it is a problem, and when called upon to defend your view you struggle to do so.

 

The are hunted down by the Aes Sedai and gentled, cut off forever from the One Power for the safety of the world. No man goes to this willingly. Even if they survive the hunt, they seldom survive long after gentling.

 

This is not the point of view of some character, this is Jordan saying black on white, few gentled men survive for long.

Is the colour important? And that strikes me more as flavour text to set the scene more than anything.

 

You said my analogy was flawed, but didn't actually give a reason. Poor

form, that. And it is up to the male channeler - they can commit suicide

if they don't want to live. They are not being denied that choice. Same

is true of depressed people in reality. If they truly want to die,

they'll take action to achieve that end. Most don't.

 

I thought it would be rather clear to everyone why I thought your analogy was flawed, you linked gentling to having to perform a very painful operation on someone and then have them be fine, while I said no it is more like having to perform a very painful operation on someone with a very, very small chance they be fine, there is a big difference there. Ah so it is okey to put someone through a horribly, painful thing that is so feared that everyone of their kind shudder when they hear the name of it if they can just kill themselves afterwards, I fail to see your logic here. 

I didn't say anything about them just being fine, only that the operation was the only way to save their life. And my logic was that male channelers were still able to end their own lives, thereby disproving your assertion that they were denied a choice.

 

 

It is mentioned that male channelers are taken back to the WT to be

gentled, and that there are correct procedures to follow - an AS who

killed someone in the field would be guilty of murder. They might well

have procedures in place for those rare men who do profess to want to

die rather than be gentled, but given how uncommon it would be thee's no

reason to assume that it would be mentioned if it existed.

 

Here is where we disagree. I think it would be far more common for a male channeler to want a clean execution to gentling, even should your theory that severing is just something most shrug off and how horrible it is just being a hype that do not change the fact that most channelers fear it more than death as they think it is a fate worse than death, it do not even have to be true that it is for them to want to die rather than face something they fear that much.

Again, you're misrepresenting what I've sad - rich from someone who told me to re-read their posts (and an indicator of why people shouldn't say that to me - I tend to read their posts better than they read mine). Most male chanelers don't really know anything about gentling - it's not something they'll have any experience of, and there's no reason why the knowledge would be especially widespread. A large number of male channelers don't even realise what they are, because they won't know the signs to look for and would probably be in denial anyway. Unless the AS deliberately framed the question in such a way as to bias the answer in favour of death, there's no reason for most people given the choice between gentling and death to choose death. People have survival instincts, after all - the urge to not die is strong. It would take something significant to overcome that. The experience of being gentled might be enough, but just having the option available to you is unlikely to be.

 

 

No I am basing my view point on what is in the books and that if male channelers had been given the choice to die instead that would have been mentioned, everything indicate that they are not.

Why would it be mentioned? It scarcely seems relevant.

 

 

Also, the channelers who consider it a fate worse than death are the

same channelers who are convinced that those women who are put out of

the WT are so disappointed in not being AS that they eventually drift

away from the Kin and stop channeling altogether.

 

No one have made the assumption that anyone will stop channeling, the assumption have been made that they will only do so privately and not make a nuisance of themselves.

It is explicitly stated: they "sometimes simply forget the Power, stop channeling". ACoS 30.

 

 

To what extent is the "fate worse than death" no longer channeling, and to what extent is it no longer being AS?

No one have claimed that not being an Aes Sedai is a fate worse than death so it is not longer being able to channel which is a fate worse than death.

Again, misrepresenting what I said. There is a difference between not being AS and no longer being AS. The ability to channel is a big part of their identity as an AS - denied that, being cast out of the WT, having all your friends from there turn their backs on you because they can no longer stand the sight of you, that's a blow over and above what severing does. And these are women who believe that the disappointment of not being an AS is such that all women will leave the Kin after five to ten years at most, and some will even stop using the OP altogether because anything pales in comparison to the WT. To an AS, the thought of being stilled or burnt out than it would be for a Wise One, for example, because the Wise Ones are not all channelers, it is not anything like as big a part of their identity. Therefore, the blow of losing the Source is there for both, but an AS has the added blow of losing her AS-hood.

 

 

Sweetie, for future reference don't try the "read my posts again" thing

on me, I'm well aware of what you've said and I didn't misrepresent you.

 

Again, we are discussing a supernatural affliction in a fantasy world, if you can not do this on civil terms then I have other things to do than to waste my time with you. I come to this forum to discuss the Wheel of Time in a friendly, polite way. It is fine if you disagree with me, I enjoy debating with those that disagree with me, that makes me consider my own views, however I have no interest in being a part of an augment so please do not turn this debate into a who is the better captain of Picard or Kirk screaming match, and when you speak to me do not call me sweetie like I was five years old. I respect that you disagree with me. I respect your opinion, I hope however that you can also respect mine.

If you wanted respect, you would act in a way that was deserving of respect, such as by reading my posts properly and not repeatedly misrepresenting my points. You act in a way that indicates you are not interested in civil discourse or reasoned discussion, only in asserting your own correctness.

 

Also yes clearly with proper care the chances of survival go drastically up, but that do not count as proper care is not given.

We do not know what care is given in most cases. We know women are put out of the WT - thus any help they get is help they get away from the WT. We know Logain was a prisoner, not just a patient in their care. If we do know what care is given, how can you say so authoritatively that improper care is given? Are they left to die of their depression?

 

 

 

Straw man. Mr Ares never said or implied anything of the sort.

 

It is a bit exaggerated from from what Mr Ares said to make a point but still basically exactly what he is saying.

No. No it isn't. It's a distortion of my point.

[Hagazussa]

Again, it is not "quite literally" cut out, that's what you've made up. You are cutting off their connection to the Source.

 

You are arguing semantics.

Fine it is cut into, or cut off not cut out. The point is something

that is a part of the soul get damaged though not permanently, something

I find rather icky.

 

I fail to see how it helps people to give validation to worthless

opinions, and respect to those undeserving of it. Seeing things through

other peoples eyes has taught me that most people do not see as clearly

as I do. Listening to the opinions of others has taught me that they

tend not to be as well thought out as my own. Rather than just lie back

with a sense of smug superiority, I also help people. Opinions are not

automatically worthy of respect, nor are other people. An opinion that

can be defended is worth more than one that can't be.

 

I have found that to look at the world with a bit of humility and not

think of myself a better than everyone else have allowed me to lean from

others and I also find that respecting other's opinions even when I

strongly disagree with them is a far better approach to life that to arrogantly assume one know better than everyone else. In fact I think there would be allot less conflict in the world if people would respect one another rather than sit on their respective fences and be sure theirs is the only possible right way of thinking. I do not think any opinion is worthless, even the opinions of people I think is completely wrong.

 

The patient staying locked up is not an option. Do you lobotomise or

execute? If someone wants to choose death, they have that option. No-one

is having life forced on them.

 

Yes here we are getting to the meat of the problem. Do you force a lobotomy

on someone and then they can always die if it did not work out in the

hope that the results will be good, or do you let the patient choose

death before. I mean I would find such choice very difficult if it was

me. On one hand I would take any chance for life, on the other hand I

would rather die then be a vegetable. That is the point, sometimes people just do not want to take the chance of the possible bad outcome, and that should be the person in question's choice, not some else's.

 

Yes, but it also means they avoid making a detailed study of it. That's

precisely the problem - they say it's bad, but make no attempt to study

the problem, and thus are unaware of how bad it is, how common it is to

survive, to what extent people recover, what the best help to give is.

In other words, they lack all the information that you would need to

make your case.

 

I do see your point here, but I do disagree with it. I think that if they

simply did not know they would have said things like most crawl away

and are never seen again, or it is a devastating loss and so on, instead

every character, Aes Sedai or no that discuss severing have the same

opinion on it and it is rather specific, that most die from loosing the

will to live, but that some few are able to find something to live for

and then they may survive.

 

A "generally accepted fact" can still be untrue. All you are saying is

that most people believe something to be true, not that there is

actually evidence to support it being true. If Irgain truly wanted to be

dead, she would make a serious attempt to kill herself. If she hasn't,

one can only conclude that she does not want to be dead.

 

A generally accepted fact can be untrue yes, but when no evidence to the

contrary is ever given to assume something other that what every

character say is fact is just speculation. Now as for suicide and

wanting to be dead. I assume depression in WoT is not that dissimilar to

depression in our world and it is many who want to be dead, but who

lack the motivation and will to go through with it, that do not mean

that one do not want to die. Also the woman in question was being kept

under supervision constantly by the Aiel so she would have had to get

creative to kill herself, and when someone are in a deep depression

being creative is not always that easy.

 

Same for all the characters - they want to live. So they live lives

blighted by depression - who doesn't? It might not be an easy cross to

bear, but it can be borne.

 

That the cross can be borne do not mean it would not be better to die. Here

is one place where I do not think we will ever agree and will have to

agree to disagree, that for many life with one affliction or another can

be worse than death. Also one thing to consider is that most former

channelers who do not manage to kill themselves die anyway after a few

years, their bodies just giving in as they just give up wanting to live.

 

Point is, in all cases we see that they can recover, at least to some

degree, and we see no-one in the series who is severed and decides they

really would rather be dead (actions speak louder than words). It should

also be pointed out that Irgain doesn't wish she was dead: "Very likely

Irgain wished she also were dead" That's an assessment from an outside

viewpoint, not an expression of the characters own wishes.

 

From this logic, and what else you have said in the thread we can assume that every time we have an exceptional character

in some piece of fiction then we have to assume that is the norm unless

we have seen other characters of the same type or affliction who are

not exceptional in such a way. Let us take the science fiction TV series

Andromeda. In this series we have a race of being called the Magog. Now

everyone know they are the worst thing you can find in space, they will

murder and eat most of you and lay their eggs in the rest. Magog is a

murdering horde, that is what everyone knows, that is what everyone say,

it is common knowledge among other things from characters who have met

them. And yet the only Magog we really see (except for in one episode

and perhaps season 5 I have not seen that.) is a peace loving priest, I

think we also see another peaceful Magog through the series. So we have

these two characters who are exceptional, who have exceptional life

stories which have made them different from the rest of their race.

Would it then be logical that with no other information than these two

exceptional individuals to assume they are the norm for their race and

that everything every character ever say about Magog is false?

 

"No big deal" is a straw man, and not representative of my views. I

accept that it's a serious problem, but I think you drastically

overstate the degree to which it is a problem, and when called upon to

defend your view you struggle to do so.

 

I feel it is you who struggle to defend your views, however this is

common in a debate when both parties have vastly different opinions so I

will rather say you have failed to convince me. Now if I have

misunderstood something you have written, I apologize, perhaps you want

to explain what you mean then instead of being indignant about it. You

know most of the time if someone misunderstand a point made in a debate,

it is not done with ill intent, people misunderstand one another, and

especially over the internet. Now in my opinion what is shown and said

in the books indicate that severing is devastating and that very few

manage to survive. I feel it is said basically black on white to be so,

but if you disagree then we will just have to agree to disagree on that.

 

Is the colour important? And that strikes me more as flavour text to set the scene more than anything.

 

No the color is not important, again it is a common way to write things.

If I talk with a new friend and then I say ok let me just get you number

and write it down in my little black book here, or rather in my case my

little gray book, that do not really mean anything, it is just a way to

make what one say a but more flowing. Now as for your flavor text

theory, why would Jordan write something for a flavor text that simply

was not true in his world when there is a million other ways he could

have written it which would add just as much flavor if what he wrote is

not the case?

 

I didn't say anything about them just being fine, only that the

operation was the only way to save their life. And my logic was that

male channelers were still able to end their own lives, thereby

disproving your assertion that they were denied a choice.

 

Being able to kill one self after something horrible is done to you, is not

the same as being given the choice to die first and not have said

horrible thing done to you in the first place. I said they whee denied

the choice of being killed instead of gentled in the first place.

 

Again, you're misrepresenting what I've sad - rich from someone who told

me to re-read their posts (and an indicator of why people shouldn't say

that to me - I tend to read their posts better than they read mine).

 

First of all, everyone can misunderstand what another have said in a post,

and you did misunderstand me further up in the debate which is why I

asked you to re read my post. Now again I have to ask, why are you so

aggressive? You are acting as if me disagreeing with you about one

aspect of this fantasy setting is a person insult to you, do you have a

need for everyone to agree with you on everything?

 

Most male chanelers don't really know anything about gentling - it's not

something they'll have any experience of, and there's no reason why the

knowledge would be especially widespread. A large number of male

channelers don't even realise what they are, because they won't know the

signs to look for and would probably be in denial anyway. Unless the AS

deliberately framed the question in such a way as to bias the answer in

favour of death, there's no reason for most people given the choice

between gentling and death to choose death. People have survival

instincts, after all -the urge to not die is strong. It would take something significant to

overcome that. The experience of being gentled might be enough, but just

having the option available to you is unlikely to be.

 

That is a fair point, I will give you that. Most male channelers who have no

idea what gentling would do to them. I assume those that do channel

consciously will know enough to know they desperately do not want to

loose that ability. But fair enough since they have never seen a

gentling and do not know what it is, I agree many would not choose death

as they have no idea what they would be going to.

 

Why would it be mentioned? It scarcely seems relevant.

 

I think it would be very relevant.

 

It is explicitly stated: they "sometimes simply forget the Power, stop channeling". ACoS 30.

 

Ok thank you I will look up that quote.

 

Again, misrepresenting what I said. There is a difference between not

being AS and no longer being AS. The ability to channel is a big part of

their identity as an AS - denied that, being cast out of the WT, having

all your friends from there turn their backs on you because they can no

longer stand the sight of you, that's a blow over and above what

severing does.

 

I am not sure it would be worse than severing but I would definitely not be a good situation I agree with that.

 

And these are women who believe that the disappointment of not being an

AS is such that all women will leave the Kin after five to ten years at

most, and some will even stop using the OP altogether because anything

pales in comparison to the WT. To an AS, the thought of being stilled or

burnt out than it would be for a Wise One, for example, because the

Wise Ones are not all channelers, it is not anything like as big a part

of their identity. Therefore, the blow of losing the Source is there for

both, but an AS has the added blow of losing her AS-hood.

 

I do agree that loosing their ability to channel is worse for an Aes

Sedai who have their entire identity and life built around that ability

than it would be for a male channeler who might have channeled for all

of six months. And I also thing it is worse to be gentled for someone

like Logain who had been at it for six years and basically gotten used

to having that kind of power and built an identity around it than it

would be for a random farm boy who just found that he could move stones

with his mind. I think it would be terrible for all, but yes I agree the

chance of survival is greater for those who do not loose their identity

along with their ability.

 

If you wanted respect, you would act in a way that was deserving of

respect, such as by reading my posts properly and not repeatedly

misrepresenting my points. You act in a way that indicates you are not

interested in civil discourse or reasoned discussion, only in asserting

your own correctness.

 

Excuse me? I have been nothing but civil with you. I am not the one who have treated you as a five year old, acted aggressive or

claimed myself better than everyone else. I have always said I respect

your opinion though I do not agree with it, and everyone, including you

at times misunderstand what another is saying. If there is anyone who

have acted in a way undeserving of respect it is you, however I have

given you respect regardless and if you can not return that I see no

need for us to continue this discussion.

 

We do not know what care is given in most cases. We know women are put

out of the WT - thus any help they get is help they get away from the

WT. We know Logain was a prisoner, not just a patient in their care. If

we do know what care is given, how can you say so authoritatively that

improper care is given? Are they left to die of their depression?

 

Well since the Aes Sedai all agree that the gentled men

die in a few years and yet the men Cadusane treats live for at least one

decade, maybe longer it is a fair assumption that at least not the best

possible care is given.

 

No. No it isn't. It's a distortion of my point.

 

No it is an exaggeration to make a point, it was not meant to misrepresent

you nor insult you, so if you got that impression then I apologize.

 

Now I will have to say like I said in my reply to Suttree. I do not think we are

going to reach an agreement on this topic and it feels like we are just

going around and around and making the same points in new wrapping over

and over again. In addition I have no interest in carrying on a debate

with someone incapable of giving the one he is having a conversation

with basic civility and respect. Now like I said I have enjoyed the

debate and I thank you for it, you have made me think about my views and

that is always a good thing. Also like I said you have given me

inspiration for some RPG adventure I want to host for my group in

another setting and that I also thank you for. It have been fun but I do

not have the desire or the time to continue to go on and on about the

same points with you. I think we both have managed to state what our

views and opinions on this is pretty clearly, I know I have. So what do

you say we agree to disagree on this? Again thank you for the debate

both of you.

[RugbyPlayingAshaman]

I would try to use the Power as little as possible and live undetected. I'd hope for a helpful Talent, like minor Compulsion, or some other ability that enables me to live a great life before I kill myself as my body rots away.

 

I can understand why a newly awakened male might go to Tar Valon to get Severed, though - they wouldn't have been channeling long enough to be attached to it and may consider it being a sin.

[Suttree]

I would try to use the Power as little as possible and live undetected. I'd hope for a helpful Talent, like minor Compulsion, or some other ability that enables me to live a great life before I kill myself as my body rots away.

 

Problem with that being you have no way of knowing you would actually kill yourself towards the end. Madness takes many forms and can come at anytime.

[RugbyPlayingAshaman]

 

I would try to use the Power as little as possible and live undetected. I'd hope for a helpful Talent, like minor Compulsion, or some other ability that enables me to live a great life before I kill myself as my body rots away.

Problem with that being you have no way of knowing you would actually kill yourself towards the end. Madness takes many forms and can come at anytime.

 

My plan doesn't revolve around planning out exactly when or how I die. As I said, I'd just hope to have a great life before my death.

[Suttree]

 

 

 

 

I would try to use the Power as little as possible and live undetected. I'd hope for a helpful Talent, like minor Compulsion, or some other ability that enables me to live a great life before I kill myself as my body rots away.

Problem with that being you have no way of knowing you would actually kill yourself towards the end. Madness takes many forms and can come at anytime.

My plan doesn't revolve around planning out exactly when or how I die. As I said, I'd just hope to have a great life before my death.

So no worries about collateral damage then? My point being you could go crazy at anytime and cause mass destruction.

[RugbyPlayingAshaman]

 

 

 

 

 

I would try to use the Power as little as possible and live undetected. I'd hope for a helpful Talent, like minor Compulsion, or some other ability that enables me to live a great life before I kill myself as my body rots away.

Problem with that being you have no way of knowing you would actually kill yourself towards the end. Madness takes many forms and can come at anytime.

My plan doesn't revolve around planning out exactly when or how I die. As I said, I'd just hope to have a great life before my death.

So no worries about collateral damage then? My point being you could go crazy at anytime and cause mass destruction.

 

No. Given that I would be living as a regular person in Randland, while I would be concerned for other people, I would be primarily concerned for myself. I'm not idealistic enough to think that I would commit suicide without doing everything possible to live.

 

If I was a character/person in Randland, I'd probably do the same thing as Owyn Merrilin. Keeping in mind that as a character/person in that world, we wouldn't have access to all of the information we do as readers - as far as most male sparkers are concerned, they are confronting this problem all on their own and most probably died quietly.

[Mr Ares]

 

I fail to see how it helps people to give validation to worthless opinions, and respect to those undeserving of it. Seeing things through other peoples eyes has taught me that most people do not see as clearly as I do. Listening to the opinions of others has taught me that they tend not to be as well thought out as my own. Rather than just lie back with a sense of smug superiority, I also help people. Opinions are not automatically worthy of respect, nor are other people. An opinion that can be defended is worth more than one that can't be.

 

I have found that to look at the world with a bit of humility and not think of myself a better than everyone else have allowed me to lean from others and I also find that respecting other's opinions even when I strongly disagree with them is a far better approach to life that to arrogantly assume one know better than everyone else. In fact I think there would be allot less conflict in the world if people would respect one another rather than sit on their respective fences and be sure theirs is the only possible right way of thinking. I do not think any opinion is worthless, even the opinions of people I think is completely wrong.

You misunderstand again. "An opinion that can be defended is worth more than one that can't be." It has nothing to do with agreement, and everything to do with the ability to justify what you say. Many people struggle to justify their points. They have a sense of entitlement, that their opinion is worthy of respect because it's, like, their opinion. A lifetimes worth of evidence has led me to conclude that I am smarter than most people. Some might disagree with my opinion, but my opinion is backed up by the facts, theirs aren't. I am capable of learning from others, I am capable of respecting the views of people I disagree with, but I do not consider people or their views to be automatically worthy of respect. Yes, my views are harsh. I tend to be very unforgiving. But I hold myself to a higher standard than other people, and I push people to better themselves. Look at Cadsuane - she's much the same way. She doesn't treat people with undeserved respect, she pushes people to become worthy of respect. One can't help but admire her. Rand and Nynaeve both end up stronger for her tuition.

 

 

 

Yes, but it also means they avoid making a detailed study of it. That's precisely the problem - they say it's bad, but make no attempt to study

the problem, and thus are unaware of how bad it is, how common it is to survive, to what extent people recover, what the best help to give is.

In other words, they lack all the information that you would need to make your case.

 

I do see your point here, but I do disagree with it. I think that if they simply did not know they would have said things like most crawl away

and are never seen again, or it is a devastating loss and so on, instead every character, Aes Sedai or no that discuss severing have the same

opinion on it and it is rather specific, that most die from loosing the will to live, but that some few are able to find something to live for

and then they may survive.

Which characters other than AS offer that opinion? The only ones I can think of are the Chosen, who were AS, and are defined in a large part by their selfishness and power hunger. Again, to them the loss is devastating for reasons beyond the pain and the loss of saidar, as it attacks their power, their station, their identity. Or the men? Again, I'm not aware of any male channeler making an extensive study of gentling and its after effects. Also, as we see with the Kin, the AS offer their beliefs as facts when they are wide of the mark. They believed the Kin to be a small organisation, actually it was twice the size of the WT. It is repeatedly shown that we cannot accept things as truth just because they are stated by the characters. That's not to say that everything the characters say is automatically wrong, but there's enough here to ring alarm bells. We have declarative statements of fact by people who haven't bothered to check their facts, that's seldom a good sign, and you couple that with Setalle, the fact we see no-one driven to suicide, the extent to which Siuan, Leane and Logain are able to recover when they have a purpose, a series of points that individually aren't much but together indicate that this might be just another example of characters being wrong, or at least not entirely right.

 

Now as for suicide and wanting to be dead. I assume depression in WoT is not that dissimilar to depression in our world and it is many who want to be dead, but who lack the motivation and will to go through with it, that do not mean that one do not want to die.

It's a matter of competing desires. A part of you wants to live, a part of you wants to die, a part of you just wants to lie there. The preeminent desire wins out. If you want to die more than you want to live, you'll find a way to end it. Also, consider that a lot of people who attempt suicide discover that they don't want to die that much. Sometimes, all you need is a shock to the system (and there's nothing like being near death to make you feel a live - you should try it some time, it's exhilarating). I'll grant you, it's not a pleasant state of mind, but your options are open. You make your choice, and you live with it (or not, as the case may be). You'd rather not act than kill yourself.

 

 

Point is, in all cases we see that they can recover, at least to some degree, and we see no-one in the series who is severed and decides they

really would rather be dead (actions speak louder than words). It should also be pointed out that Irgain doesn't wish she was dead: "Very likely

Irgain wished she also were dead" That's an assessment from an outside viewpoint, not an expression of the characters own wishes.

 

From this logic, and what else you have said in the thread we can assume that every time we have an exceptional character in some piece of fiction then we have to assume that is the norm unless we have seen other characters of the same type or affliction who are not exceptional in such a way. Let us take the science fiction TV series Andromeda. In this series we have a race of being called the Magog. Now everyone know they are the worst thing you can find in space, they will murder and eat most of you and lay their eggs in the rest. Magog is a murdering horde, that is what everyone knows, that is what everyone say, it is common knowledge among other things from characters who have met them. And yet the only Magog we really see (except for in one episode

and perhaps season 5 I have not seen that.) is a peace loving priest, I think we also see another peaceful Magog through the series. So we have

these two characters who are exceptional, who have exceptional life stories which have made them different from the rest of their race.

Would it then be logical that with no other information than these two exceptional individuals to assume they are the norm for their race and

that everything every character ever say about Magog is false?

It would lead me to conclude that I was probably not being given the whole story. Things are often more complicated than people would like to portray them as.

 

 

"No big deal" is a straw man, and not representative of my views. I accept that it's a serious problem, but I think you drastically

overstate the degree to which it is a problem, and when called upon to defend your view you struggle to do so.

 

I feel it is you who struggle to defend your views, however this is common in a debate when both parties have vastly different opinions so I

will rather say you have failed to convince me. Now if I have misunderstood something you have written, I apologize, perhaps you want

to explain what you mean then instead of being indignant about it. You know most of the time if someone misunderstand a point made in a debate,

it is not done with ill intent, people misunderstand one another, and especially over the internet.

I have explained my point. Severing is devastating, that much is evident, but the frequency with which people recover is not known. The only sources to suggest that it is years of misery and depression until you die with almost no-one recovering are all unreliable. It is stated, black on white, by sources who cannot be taken at face value. Yet you do take them at face value.

 

 

Is the colour important? And that strikes me more as flavour text to set the scene more than anything.

 

No the color is not important, again it is a common way to write things. If I talk with a new friend and then I say ok let me just get you number

and write it down in my little black book here, or rather in my case my little gray book, that do not really mean anything, it is just a way to

make what one say a but more flowing. Now as for your flavor text theory, why would Jordan write something for a flavor text that simply

was not true in his world when there is a million other ways he could have written it which would add just as much flavor if what he wrote is

not the case?

It's not a common way of phrasing things, and even if it was you shouldn't overuse it so. Used more sparingly it would improve the flow. As for different ways, he's simply trying to set the scene, not depict a literal truth. What other ways of phrasing it work as well? "Few men go to it willingly, and the average survival after gentling is 8-10 years" doesn't have quite the same ring to it. Especially if you're trying to show that the main protagonist is in a bad situation - downplaying the severity of gentling would work against the narrative. As the narrative is more important than the literal truth, he phrases things in a more dramatic but less accurate way. If he was asked for more specific information in an interview, that would be more helpful. You could try emailing Brandon and seeing if he has any reliable information to offer on how long people survive on average, how many commit suicide, how many just give up on life, why all the men Cadsuane gentled still lived less than a full span - this would all be useful information.

 

 

I didn't say anything about them just being fine, only that the operation was the only way to save their life. And my logic was that

male channelers were still able to end their own lives, thereby disproving your assertion that they were denied a choice.

 

Being able to kill one self after something horrible is done to you, is not the same as being given the choice to die first and not have said

horrible thing done to you in the first place. I said they whee denied the choice of being killed instead of gentled in the first place.

Then they could commit suicide before they were gentled, if they were that afraid of it.

 

 

Again, you're misrepresenting what I've sad - rich from someone who told me to re-read their posts (and an indicator of why people shouldn't say

that to me - I tend to read their posts better than they read mine).

 

First of all, everyone can misunderstand what another have said in a post, and you did misunderstand me further up in the debate which is why I

asked you to re read my post. Now again I have to ask, why are you so aggressive? You are acting as if me disagreeing with you about one

aspect of this fantasy setting is a person insult to you, do you have a need for everyone to agree with you on everything?

I thought we'd already established that this isn't aggressive, this is friendly. And I did not misunderstand you.

 

Why would it be mentioned? It scarcely seems relevant.

 

I think it would be very relevant.

Oh? How many male channelers would go to their fate begging for death? People, as a rule, prefer to survive. When you look at the various factors, such as how most men wouldn't even believe they were channelers, people asking for death is likely to be an extreme rarity. There's no reason why it would be mentioned that AS are willing to euthanise men who would rather die than be gentled if it's not plot relevant, and so rare that it never comes up. It could still be thrown in as a worldbuilding detail, but there's no reason why it should, it doesn't have to.

 

If you wanted respect, you would act in a way that was deserving of respect, such as by reading my posts properly and not repeatedly

misrepresenting my points. You act in a way that indicates you are not interested in civil discourse or reasoned discussion, only in asserting

your own correctness.

 

Excuse me? I have been nothing but civil with you. I am not the one who have treated you as a five year old, acted aggressive or claimed myself better than everyone else. I have always said I respect your opinion though I do not agree with it, and everyone, including you at times misunderstand what another is saying. If there is anyone who have acted in a way undeserving of respect it is you, however I have given you respect regardless and if you can not return that I see no need for us to continue this discussion.

Respect? You've ignored and misrepresented a significant amount of what I had to say. That's not something you do to show respect. You've said you respect me, but you have not shown it. I have not claimed to respect you, yet I have shown you respect anyway. Even now, you claim that I've treated you like a five year old and that I have acted aggressively towards you when this is simply not true.

[Adda_al'Postrophe]

Well that's a lot of fuss over something that started with my moral observations. :)

 

Personally, I think 'named' characters  are usually folks who are above average or beyond the norm in the world they live in. 

I think this goes double for WoT as if it is one thing the books have is a surplus of super-uber-powerful-awesome-best-greatest-of-thier-age characters.

 

IMHO, using any of the named folks who got stilled as an example for how the common man/woman would respond, is a logical fallacy. (ie.  If it is true for them, it has to be true for everyone)  The same applies in reverse.

 

Maybe the average run of the mill channeler would find it a fate worse then death, where the Special Suzy ones would be able to carry on in the face of such a horrible thing due to whatever it is that makes them special.

 

I dont think anyone could prove it either way, though I do think it is a blast to speculate.

 

Here's a thought..  Is it worse for men, or for  women, to be stilled/gentled?  Who has the more painful experience?   Everything else about how men and women interact with the Source is different.. why not that?  Maybe to women it is like losing a lover and can be fixed with a few nights of too much ice cream, red wine and tissues. Maybe to men it is like having a part ripped off?  It strikes me that this would be another variable to consider in this discussion :)

[Hagazussa]

To: RugbyPlayingAshaman

 

I would try to use the Power as little as possible and live undetected.
I'd hope for a helpful Talent, like minor Compulsion, or some other
ability that enables me to live a great life before I kill myself as my
body rots away.

 

And what if the madness came before the rotting as it very often do?

 

I can understand why a newly awakened male might go to Tar Valon to get
Severed, though - they wouldn't have been channeling long enough to be
attached to it and may consider it being a sin.

 

Ido not think anyone go happily and willingly to be severed, but if someone do my guess it would be less because they think it is a sin and more because best case scenario they die a horrible death in a few years as their body rots around them and worst case scenario they blast everything around them to kingdom come.

 

No. Given that I would be living as a regular person in Randland, while I
would be concerned for other people, I would be primarily concerned for
myself. I'm not idealistic enough to think that I would commit suicide
without doing everything possible to live.

 

This is a great point, we can discuss what the ideal and perhaps best moral
solution would be if you where a man in Wheel of Time and you found you
could channel, the most moral thing to do would probably be to either
kill yourself or go off to Tar Valon as soon as you discovered the
ability, but then one have to look realistically at it, would you really
as a person sacrifice yourself for others? Some would off course but I
know me, I consider myself a nice person, but I would not die for others
unless it was really, really necessary and we are as human beings great
at rationalizing to ourselves why such a thing would not be necessary.
Most male channelers are just regular men who live regular lives who
suddenly get an ability they know will be their doom. Some might
convince themselves they can control it, or they they try not to use it
or they find some way to rationalize for themselves why they need those
abilities. Very few want to die, and not that many have the courage to
just off themselves for just having an undesired ability.

 

 

If I was a character/person in Randland, I'd probably do the same
thing as Owyn Merrilin. Keeping in mind that as a character/person in
that world, we wouldn't have access to all of the information we do as
readers - as far as most male sparkers are concerned, they are
confronting this problem all on their own and most probably died
quietly.

 

I think most actually die from the channeling sickness that comes to
untrained sparkers, most probably before they even know what they are.
But yes of those who survive most probably just try to survive on their
own

 

To: Adda al'Postrophe

 

Personally, I think 'named' characters  are usually folks who are above average or beyond the norm in the world they live in. 

I think this goes double for WoT as if it is one thing the books have
is a surplus of super-uber-powerful-awesome-best-greatest-of-thier-age
characters.

 

Yes I agree. But then this is true for most settings. I mean how many books do not have the hero resist the torture that breaks all others, or have one of the main cast be able to resist the irresistible mind control for long enough to save the ship and the crew and so on. Most stories is about exceptional characters who beat through impossible odds. So yes what the named characters are able to live through and what the average man is able to live though is most settings, definitely including WoT, is not comparable. And also characters managing to survive where others do not is a way to show how strong said character is. I mean when we hear that no one have ever made it out of the bad guy's labyrinth of horror alive and then the main hero do, that is not to say, oh well the labyrinth could not have been that bad then, it is meant in a story to show just how bad ass the hero is. The same when Siuan and Leane more or less shrug off something the rest of the channeling population fear like nothing else and soldier on, that is not to say severing is not bad, it is meant to show just how dedicated these characters are.

 

IMHO, using any of the named folks who got stilled as an example for
how the common man/woman would respond, is a logical fallacy. (ie.  If
it is true for them, it has to be true for everyone)  The same applies
in reverse.

Maybe the average run of the mill channeler would find it a fate
worse then death, where the Special Suzy ones would be able to carry on
in the face of such a horrible thing due to whatever it is that makes
them special.

 

I completely agree. The named characters have that strength of will and dedication needed to survive something like severing. Also another point is that sometimes a character who is dedicated enough will go through a fate worse than death to achieve their goal. We see this trope in fiction all the time, the woman who give herself to be raped by the man she is repulsed by to get close enough to him to kill him and safe her people from his tyranny, the vampire hunter who becomes undead so he can save his city from vampires or the character who give up his one chance to escape the terrible limbo his is trapped in so another can avoid his fate. When such sacrifices are made they do not mean that the fates in question is any less horrible, but that the characters are strong enough to face them anyway, often to help others. In the second book when Siuan and Moiraine discuss that they might be stilled for what they are doing, they show the same horror at the prospect as any other channeler, it is just that they are willing to face a fate worse than death to be able to give the aid they think is needed to save the world, and that willingness to face something like that show how noble their character is, it do not indicate that the fate they are risking is any less horrible than everyone thinks.

 

I dont think anyone could prove it either way, though I do think it is a blast to speculate.

 

Yeah speculating is fun and I agree we can not prove it one way or the other, but discussing such things is a great way to explore the details of the setting.

 

Here's a thought..  Is it worse for men, or for  women, to be
stilled/gentled?  Who has the more painful experience?   Everything else
about how men and women interact with the Source is different.. why not
that?  Maybe to women it is like losing a lover and can be fixed with a
few nights of too much ice cream, red wine and tissues. Maybe to men it
is like having a part ripped off?  It strikes me that this would be
another variable to consider in this discussion :)

 

I have never thought of that, but it is a good question. The books mention a few times that men and women react just as badly to being severed, however whatever or not the experience is different between the genders they do not mention. We have never seen a man be severed on screen in the books, we have seen Logain afterwards but have not seen the thing itself done, we have seen women be stilled on screen however. Now we do not know if it is as painful for men, or if they will have the same reaction to the weave itself as it is cast, my guess however would be that it would be pretty much the same. Now as for afterwards Mr Ares do make a good point on one thing and that is that Aes Sedai tie their entire identity to their ability to channel. I do think that the base problem with being severed is the same for men and women, the need to channel that can no longer be met, it is described to be a need as strong as the need to breathe, and that need never go away. However if I where to speculate I would guess that severing for an Aes Sedai or someone like Logain who have made their ability to channel the whole of their identity would be allot worse then for a baker's son who have channeled for a year and who really hate the ability. It is the same as that I think that going blind would suck big time for everyone, but for someone who where a painter for example who had their profession and identity tied up in something they then would no longer be able to do it would be worse. Or in other words I think the supernatural effect and horror at being severed is the same between genders, possible with minor differences between them, a man might feel more rage at the loss of power and feel reduced and less powerful, while women might miss the calming, motherly touch of saidar but I am speculating here, the base problem I think is the same, but I think that someone who have something other than channeling to fall back on will fare better than those who have nothing else and being a channeler is their entire life.

[Adda_al'Postrophe]

To: Adda al'Postrophe

 

Personally, I think 'named' characters  are usually folks who are above average or beyond the norm in the world they live in. 

I think this goes double for WoT as if it is one thing the books have

is a surplus of super-uber-powerful-awesome-best-greatest-of-thier-age

characters.

 

Yes I agree. But then this is true for most settings. I mean how many books do not have the hero resist the torture that breaks all others,

 

WoT has an excess of powerful people.  It seems to me it goes from "Common Man" to "God" with not much in between. :)   That was my point :)

[Hagazussa]

WoT has an excess of powerful people.  It seems to me it goes from

"Common Man" to "God" with not much in between. :)   That was my point

:)

 

Yes I agree, but then it is not how powerful the characters are that make them exceptional, channelers are very powerful, the setting's magick system got some kick. I think it is more in their strength of will and character that they are exceptional, but yes the setting do have allot of the most powerful of X the world have seen for thousand of years kind of folks, you are definitely right about that.

[Mr Ares]

Well that's a lot of fuss over something that started with my moral observations. :)

 

Personally, I think 'named' characters  are usually folks who are above average or beyond the norm in the world they live in. 

I think this goes double for WoT as if it is one thing the books have is a surplus of super-uber-powerful-awesome-best-greatest-of-thier-age characters.

I think it's more a case of major characters, our leads, tend to be the above average folk - WoT's larger cast of characters gives more room for ordinary people, less exceptional folk, people who are *shudder* average. Siuan Sanche and Logain Ablar are fairly exceptional people - one was the Amyrlin, and at a fairly young age for such a role, while the other was a False Dragon. Leane less so - becoming Keeper doesn't require the same sort of drive and dedication as becoming Amyrlin. Ronaille, Irgain and Sashalle are AS, which means they have more strength of will than the average bear, but by the standards of AS they aren't truly exceptional people. All of them dealt with being stilled, and were eventually Healed, all of them gained the respect of the Wise Ones. Just one of them committing suicide would have helped to reinforce how bad stilling was and give weight to the AS view of it. Consider that when we have the three ex-sul'dam (Bethamin, Renna, Seta) one of them breaks and runs and is killed for it, underscoring that this isn't something that they find easy to deal with. Absent these sorts of things, it's easy to see that stilling scares the AS, but doesn't bring home how justified the fear truly is.

[balefireruinssteaks]

I don't think I'd want to be the most powerful male channeler of all or something like that.  Weilding that much power has immense responsibility and although you can do a lot of things with it, you can do a lot of things with a medium level of power as well.  I'd like to be somewhere above the norm of strength in the Power but not at the top.  Maybe a first-runner-up for Chosen if that makes any sense.

 

I think if I had to be in the storyline before the male half of the Power was cleansed, I'd definitely do my best to stay hidden about it but my curiosity to learn would definitely have me trying to channel whenever I could get away with it.  Maybe I'd build a farm or something and live there while I learned to channel and hope that I didn't go mad before I died.  I would try to use the Power to help people, but realistically before the Dark One's touch was removed helping people with the male half of the Power was a great way to get yourself lynched.

 

If I was interjected into the storyline afterward I'd absolutely go to the Black Tower and train.  Hopefully I would be able to be on some assignment before Taim took over the Black Tower and started turning male channelers.  Maybe I'd be advisor to Perrin and Faile when she assumed the throne of Saldea.  hehe...maybe Perrin would hug me.  a lot.

[Adda_al'Postrophe]

 

Well that's a lot of fuss over something that started with my moral observations. :)

 

Personally, I think 'named' characters  are usually folks who are above average or beyond the norm in the world they live in. 

I think this goes double for WoT as if it is one thing the books have is a surplus of super-uber-powerful-awesome-best-greatest-of-thier-age characters.

I think it's more a case of major characters, our leads, tend to be the above average folk - WoT's larger cast of characters gives more room for ordinary people, less exceptional folk, people who are *shudder* average. Siuan Sanche and Logain Ablar are fairly exceptional people - one was the Amyrlin, and at a fairly young age for such a role, while the other was a False Dragon. Leane less so - becoming Keeper doesn't require the same sort of drive and dedication as becoming Amyrlin. Ronaille, Irgain and Sashalle are AS, which means they have more strength of will than the average bear, but by the standards of AS they aren't truly exceptional people.

 

I am not sure if you just re-stated my point, or tried to argue it.. or both :)

 

No matter which, I think the key statement you made was " by the standards of AS they aren't truly exceptional people".  Those standards are much higher, and IMHO just falling into the 'acceptable range' of them, puts a character into a higher bracket. Even the least of the AS seems to be able to dig deep and be exceptional when needed.   I am not sure I could say any of the AS are 'common folk'.

 

I am going to stick by my statement.  The named characters, from main through supporting to minor, are exceptional people.  Maybe not exceptional in thier own groups, but certainly exceptional in comparisson to the vast population.

[Suttree]

IMHO, using any of the named folks who got stilled as an example for how the common man/woman would respond, is a logical fallacy. (ie.  If it is true for them, it has to be true for everyone)  The same applies in reverse. 

 

1. That wasn't the point being made.

 

2. To say every named character in the story has some sort of super human, exceptional will is of course ridiculous. Channelers in general are not "normal folk". Whether they be AS, WO's, WF's, a village wise woman etc. As has been discussed severing would most likely be worse for AS than others groups.

[Adda_al'Postrophe]

 

IMHO, using any of the named folks who got stilled as an example for how the common man/woman would respond, is a logical fallacy. (ie.  If it is true for them, it has to be true for everyone)  The same applies in reverse. 

 

1. That wasn't the point being made.

 

It came across that way.  

 

2. To say every named character in the story has some sort of super human, exceptional will is of course ridiculous. Channelers in general are not "normal folk". Whether they be AS, WO's, WF's, a village wise woman etc. As has been discussed severing would most likely be worse for AS than others groups.

 

I used hyperbole, my appologies for not being clearer.  Sure they are not all 'super human', like any group of people it varies in degrees.  Still, the lowest of the named characters is still above the 'normal man'.. else they would not be special and would have no reason to be named.

 

'Channelers in general...' are the same as any other person. It is nurture that makes them exceptional.  Take away the training, the enviornment.. and you have a  person with a gift.  Nothing more.  

[Suttree]

I used hyperbole, my appologies for not being clearer.  Sure they are not all 'super human', like any group of people it varies in degrees.  Still, the lowest of the named characters is still above the 'normal man'.. else they would not be special and would have no reason to be named.

Tell that to Floran Gelb.

 

As for #2 think you are missing the point. Again to say that since they are a named character they automatically have "exceptional will" to withstand something like severing is ridiculous. Also in the above you seem to be claiming that channelers in general(at least the majority of them) whether they be AS, WO or a village healer would all be nurtured up to exceptional. That would take away from the point you are trying to make.

[Adda_al'Postrophe]

 

I used hyperbole, my appologies for not being clearer.  Sure they are not all 'super human', like any group of people it varies in degrees.  Still, the lowest of the named characters is still above the 'normal man'.. else they would not be special and would have no reason to be named.

Tell that to Floran Gelb.

 

As for #2 think you are missing the point. Again to say that since they are a named character they automatically have "exceptional will" to withstand something like severing is ridiculous. Also in the above you seem to be claiming that channelers in general(at least the majority of them) whether they be AS, WO or a village healer would all be nurtured up to exceptional. That would take away from the point you are trying to make.

 

I did not say all named characters "had exceptional will by virtue of being named."   That is your addition.  I said they were -special- by virtue of being named. They are unique.  There is something about them that holds them beyond the "normal".   They are "exceptional" ie.  Not typical. An exception. Unusual. 

 

As for your #2.  Not -all- channelers get trained or nurtured "up" to exceptional. (To use an absolute here is, to use your phrase..ridiculous)  The AS do get trained up, the WO as well.  The villiage healer? Not as much or not at all, depending on the apprenticeship.  The training for the wise one and the AS is abusive and humiliating. People are "tossed out of the tower" if they cannot rise to the standards set. People die or are burned out in the course of training.   I assert these things very much so support the concept that the people involved are 'nurtured up' to being exceptional by the time they complete it... ie.  That which does not kill me, makes me stronger.