Battle Between Moridin and Rand

[thisguy]

So, in one of the interviews with Mr Jordan that somebody posted, he talks about how the main characters are an amalgamation of gods, not just one a piece. I've been trying to figure out how the fight at the Bore will go down.

 

What we know, or think we know, is that Rand will have two women with him to help wield Callandor - Nynaeve has already been asked, I'm guessing Moiraine will be the other. Many others have guessed the same.

 

Moridin has Cyndane and Moghedien wearing matching outfits with him and they're controlled by him with Mindtraps, so it's a reasonable assumption that these three will oppose Rand and his two. Hopefully, Rand, Nynaeve and Moiraine will wear matching outfits that do them justice.

 

Anyway, during my reread, I realized that Semi's capture by Rand and then her putting him in the Domination Band (she's so naughty) was a partial reverse of the Tyr-Fenris myth, where Tyr tricks Fenris into being collared (in what was thought to be an unbreakable collar) by offering to put his hand in the wolf's jaws. It works but Tyr loses his hand for it. In RJ's world, Rand loses his hand capturing Semi but she later collars him. He is both Tyr and Fenrir and so is she.

 

Anyway, thank you for reading the intro, here's my point. I still am not sure how Rand will seal the Bore. In Norse mythology the main evil dude is Surtur - a fire giant. Surtur is the potential destroyer of the Universe. He is also the originating force that breathes life into beings by melting the ice and unleashing the Frost Giants and Odin's father who begets the Aesir. This happens cyclically (sound familiar).

 

So, the final battle is against Surtur. Odin has already fallen in battle. Freyr fights Surtur. Surtur has a sword which IS BRIGHTER THAN THE SUN. Freyr has given up his sword - the translation of the name of the sword is either The Good Sword or the Good Blade. He gave up his sword to marry his wife. Because, he doesn't have that particular sword, he loses the battle with Surtur.

 

Now, what's important here:

1. last battle with the Devil

2. Sword brighter than the sun

3. Good sword given up for a love

4. good guy dies

 

I wasn't really for any theory that Moridin would wield Callandor because of Min's viewing of an onyx hand wielding Callandor. It's not a black hand, or a hand gloved in black, but an onyx hand. But, I'm starting to think that Rand will give up Callandor or lose it to Moridin. He gives up his "good sword" and Moridin ends up with a sword "brighter than the sun". How or why does this happen?

 

Well, could be that Moridin captures Min and blackmails Rand for the sword. I could see that. I think Rand might risk the universe for Min. Or, maybe it's any of the other women that Rand either loves or deeply cares about. However, in the Epilogue of ToM, we see Cyndane show up in Rand's warded dreams somehow. She's being tortured. Is this a ruse to trick Rand or is she really being tortured? I wouldn't be surprised if this somehow leads to Rand losing or giving up Callandor.

 

Now, just like Rand, Moridin has his two ladies in matching outfits (black with red trim to go with his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul - I love it when everything color coordinates). Min has told Rand that she believes there is another flaw in Callandor which will leave Rand open to attack. Well, it will leave Moridin open to attack if he's wielding it.

 

Rand Lews Therin Thelamon Al'Thor is a sharp guy. Don't believe anybody who tells you differently. He might have already figured out that he has to give up Callandor to Moridin to win. We've already seen Callandor go wrong when Rand has wielded it (get the DVD version of 'When Callandor Goes Bad' for 9.95 US).

 

So, somehow Mori gets the sword, kills Rand, unleashes the TP and it backfires. But, Rand having learned to give in, already has an idea of what to do.... Etc.

 

Thoughts? Comments? Critiques? Hor Dourves?

 

Edit To Add: Sidenote - Freyr is a god of Fertility and of the Land (crops, etc). Sounds like a pretty good match up with Mr. 3 Fiances, When I'm in a Good Mood You Eat Well Al'Thor, no?

 

Edit to Add More:

Somehow I think Cyndane is mixed in with this.

 

We know that Callandor is flawed. There's already some foreshadowing from the fourth book about Rand losing it, when Moiraine is surprised he just has it on a stand in his bedroom.

 

We also know that ZenRand is a pretty smart fellow. He knows Moridin wants the Sword, he knows it's flawed and will leave the wielder open to attack. We also know that Lanfear wanted to defy and destroy the DO. We know that a woman will lead the circle of three that wields the sword.

[Amandera]

Why would Moridin want Callandor?

• He channels exclusively TP.
  
• Angreal are useless with TP.
  
• Amount of TP someone can channel is upto DO. So it's possible that Moridin can match Rand's power even with Callandor + a circle of 3.
  

Plus, doom the world in order to save Min? LTT rejects this with Ilyena. Rand is more likely to reject it too.

[thisguy]

You could be right. We shall see. As for the Callandor not being able to be used with the TP- might be correct. It's flawed and we don't know the nature of the flaw(s).

[Neophyte]

Plus, doom the world in order to save Min? LTT rejects this with Ilyena. Rand is more likely to reject it too.

 

I agree with your conclusion here - Rand isn't likely to sacrifice the world to save Min. But when did Lews Therin reject a chance to save the world at the cost of his wife? He didn't know that putting the Seals on the Dark One's prison would cause him to go mad and kill Ilyena. I don't recall Ilyena ever having been held hostage by the Shadow - indeed, she would not have been at home for Lews Therin to kill, were that the case.

 

Lews Therin never made a conscious choice to sacrifice Ilyena (or allow her to be sacrificed) to save the world.

[hjustinpace]

Why would Moridin want Callandor?

• He channels exclusively TP.
  
• Angreal are useless with TP.
  
• Amount of TP someone can channel is upto DO. So it's possible that Moridin can match Rand's power even with Callandor + a circle of 3.
  

Plus, doom the world in order to save Min? LTT rejects this with Ilyena. Rand is more likely to reject it too.

 

He certainly wanted Callandor in TDR and the access keys in WH.

 

 

I like it, in large part because it accounts for RJ's fondness of mixing and matching his myths.

[hjustinpace]

Plus, doom the world in order to save Min? LTT rejects this with Ilyena. Rand is more likely to reject it too.

 

I agree with your conclusion here - Rand isn't likely to sacrifice the world to save Min. But when did Lews Therin reject a chance to save the world at the cost of his wife? He didn't know that putting the Seals on the Dark One's prison would cause him to go mad and kill Ilyena. I don't recall Ilyena ever having been held hostage by the Shadow - indeed, she would not have been at home for Lews Therin to kill, were that the case.

 

Lews Therin never made a conscious choice to sacrifice Ilyena (or allow her to be sacrificed) to save the world.

 

LTT's actions seem to point in the opposite direction. He killed himself after discovering he killed Illyena rather than doing anything constructive.

[Neophyte]

Plus, doom the world in order to save Min? LTT rejects this with Ilyena. Rand is more likely to reject it too.

 

I agree with your conclusion here - Rand isn't likely to sacrifice the world to save Min. But when did Lews Therin reject a chance to save the world at the cost of his wife? He didn't know that putting the Seals on the Dark One's prison would cause him to go mad and kill Ilyena. I don't recall Ilyena ever having been held hostage by the Shadow - indeed, she would not have been at home for Lews Therin to kill, were that the case.

 

Lews Therin never made a conscious choice to sacrifice Ilyena (or allow her to be sacrificed) to save the world.

 

LTT's actions seem to point in the opposite direction. He killed himself after discovering he killed Illyena rather than doing anything constructive.

 

Constructive ... like what? He was presented with visceral evidence of his complete failure in the most compelling and graphic way imaginable. He could not fix what he had done. If he had continued to channel saidin, he could only have gone mad again.

 

And what does his reaction after the fact have to do with his putative willingness or unwillingness to see her sacrificed before the fact?

[Amandera]

I'm referring to the LTT-Ishamael talk at the tEotW prologue. Ishamael says he can get Ilyena back if LTT serves him. And by the exchange between the two, LTT definitely knows DO can bring the dead back:

 

"For what else you have done, there can be no forgiveness, Betrayer, but for Ilyena's death I will destroy you beyond anything your master can repair. Prepare to —"

 

That's obviously balefire.

[thisguy]

Well, he may not give up the Universe for Min, but I think somehow the Cyndane dream at the end of ToM is mixed in with this.

[Neophyte]

I'm referring to the LTT-Ishamael talk at the tEotW prologue. Ishamael says he can get Ilyena back if LTT serves him. And by the exchange between the two, LTT definitely knows DO can bring the dead back:

 

"For what else you have done, there can be no forgiveness, Betrayer, but for Ilyena's death I will destroy you beyond anything your master can repair. Prepare to —"

 

That's obviously balefire.

 

Sorry, Lews Therin wouldn't have believed Ishamael's promises for a second. There's no way that Lews Therin thought he could actually get his wife back in any satisfactory way.

[Amandera]

You could be right. We shall see. As for the Callandor not being able to be used with the TP- might be correct. It's flawed and we don't know the nature of the flaw(s).

You mean magnifying the taint part right? Yeah, maybe. If it could, indeed, be used with TP, though, what's the point? It seems easier to ask DO to grant more power to him.

 

Why would Moridin want Callandor?

• He channels exclusively TP.
  
• Angreal are useless with TP.
  
• Amount of TP someone can channel is upto DO. So it's possible that Moridin can match Rand's power even with Callandor + a circle of 3.
  

Plus, doom the world in order to save Min? LTT rejects this with Ilyena. Rand is more likely to reject it too.

 

He certainly wanted Callandor in TDR and the access keys in WH.

 

 

I like it, in large part because it accounts for RJ's fondness of mixing and matching his myths.

It's been some time before I read tDR and WH, but I always thought he did not want Rand to get Callandor and Choden Kal was about the cleansing.

 

Plus, doom the world in order to save Min? LTT rejects this with Ilyena. Rand is more likely to reject it too.

 

I agree with your conclusion here - Rand isn't likely to sacrifice the world to save Min. But when did Lews Therin reject a chance to save the world at the cost of his wife? He didn't know that putting the Seals on the Dark One's prison would cause him to go mad and kill Ilyena. I don't recall Ilyena ever having been held hostage by the Shadow - indeed, she would not have been at home for Lews Therin to kill, were that the case.

 

Lews Therin never made a conscious choice to sacrifice Ilyena (or allow her to be sacrificed) to save the world.

 

LTT's actions seem to point in the opposite direction. He killed himself after discovering he killed Illyena rather than doing anything constructive.

 

Constructive ... like what? He was presented with visceral evidence of his complete failure in the most compelling and graphic way imaginable. He could not fix what he had done. If he had continued to channel saidin, he could only have gone mad again.

 

And what does his reaction after the fact have to do with his putative willingness or unwillingness to see her sacrificed before the fact?

That was a temporary lucidity.

[thisguy]

The actual girl who gets him to give up Callandor part of it is ancillary. Could be pregnant Elayne. Who knows?

 

Somehow I think Cyndane is mixed in with this.

 

We know that Callandor is flawed. There's already some foreshadowing from the fourth book about Rand losing it, when Moiraine is surprised he just has it on a stand in his bedroom.

 

We also know that ZenRand is a pretty smart fellow. He knows Moridin wants the Sword, he knows it's flawed and will leave the wielder open to attack. We also know that Lanfear wanted to defy and destroy the DO. We know that a woman will lead the circle of three that wield the sword.

[Amandera]

I'm referring to the LTT-Ishamael talk at the tEotW prologue. Ishamael says he can get Ilyena back if LTT serves him. And by the exchange between the two, LTT definitely knows DO can bring the dead back:

 

"For what else you have done, there can be no forgiveness, Betrayer, but for Ilyena's death I will destroy you beyond anything your master can repair. Prepare to —"

 

That's obviously balefire.

 

Sorry, Lews Therin wouldn't have believed Ishamael's promises for a second. There's no way that Lews Therin thought he could actually get his wife back in any satisfactory way.

By that same logic, Rand wouldn't believe Moridin would spare Min if he gave up Callandor. And well, if LTT doesn't get Ilyena, he could always balefire himself. He has nothing to lose at that point.

[hjustinpace]

It's been some time before I read tDR and WH, but I always thought he did not want Rand to get Callandor and Choden Kal was about the cleansing.

 

 

I don't think his motivations in WH are discernible. It's been a while since I've read TDR as well, so I can't speak definitively to it.

[Neophyte]

I'm referring to the LTT-Ishamael talk at the tEotW prologue. Ishamael says he can get Ilyena back if LTT serves him. And by the exchange between the two, LTT definitely knows DO can bring the dead back:

 

"For what else you have done, there can be no forgiveness, Betrayer, but for Ilyena's death I will destroy you beyond anything your master can repair. Prepare to —"

 

That's obviously balefire.

 

Sorry, Lews Therin wouldn't have believed Ishamael's promises for a second. There's no way that Lews Therin thought he could actually get his wife back in any satisfactory way.

By that same logic, Rand wouldn't believe Moridin would spare Min if he gave up Callandor. And well, if LTT doesn't get Ilyena, he could always balefire himself. He has nothing to lose at that point.

 

I agree that Rand wouldn't believe Moridin. None of that has to do with the hypothetical choice in which he believed he actually could get her back at the cost of the Shadow's victory. (Which is an absurd proposition to start with, because by giving up the universe, he loses her too.)

 

Neither Rand nor Lews Therin has ever been presented with a credible offer of that kind, which is what you implied by saying,

 

 

Plus, doom the world in order to save Min? LTT rejects this with Ilyena. Rand is more likely to reject it too.

 

Lews Therin didn't reject anything, because a credible offer was never made.

[Amandera]

Okay, DO being free means no Pattern and no Ilyena so it's not a credible offer. Still, he could have had Ilyena until the end of time, however short that time is, but he chose to commit suicide. Doesn't that count?

 

Well, no matter. Rand knows he needs Callandor. He wouldn't willingly give it up to Shadow for anything.

[thisguy]

Okay, DO being free means no Pattern and no Ilyena so it's not a credible offer. Still, he could have had Ilyena until the end of time, however short that time is, but he chose to commit suicide. Doesn't that count?

 

Well, no matter. Rand knows he needs Callandor. He wouldn't willingly give it up to Shadow for anything.

So, he doesn't give it up, he's tricked. How about the rest of the theory?

[Neophyte]

Okay, DO being free means no Pattern and no Ilyena so it's not a credible offer. Still, he could have had Ilyena until the end of time, however short that time is, but he chose to commit suicide. Doesn't that count?

 

... nah, not in my book.

 

 

Well, no matter. Rand knows he needs Callandor. He wouldn't willingly give it up to Shadow for anything.

 

Completely agree, and did from the start.

[Amandera]

Okay, DO being free means no Pattern and no Ilyena so it's not a credible offer. Still, he could have had Ilyena until the end of time, however short that time is, but he chose to commit suicide. Doesn't that count?

 

Well, no matter. Rand knows he needs Callandor. He wouldn't willingly give it up to Shadow for anything.

So, he doesn't give it up, he's tricked. How about the rest of the theory?

Like I said I don't think Moridin wants Callandor for himself or needs it. I don't have a theory myself as to what's going to happen so I don't know what the onyx hand is about. Even it refers to something to do with Moridin, I don't think the viewing means him literally wielding Callandor.

[Neophyte]

So, he doesn't give it up, he's tricked. How about the rest of the theory?

 

One of the problems with trying to draw deliberate sequential parallels between established mythologies and Jordan's characters is that he always (and I think is safe to say deliberately) complicates his references. None of it turns out to be quite as "connect-the-dots" as it might be. Rand certainly has elements of Freyr - just as he has elements of Thor, Tyr, Arthur Pendragon, even Christ. But none of it plays out in the story quite the way it played out in the mythology, so trying to make predictions based on the mythology puts one of treacherous ground at best.

 

So, I tend to base an assessment of this kind of theory not on the connections which can be drawn to the sequence/elements of an existing myth, and instead rely on an analysis based on the in-world characters and their established patterns of behavior, etc. Given all that, I find this sequence very unlikely, for the reason that I don't Moridin actually wants to use Callandor so much as he'd like for Rand not to be able to use it. If Moridin gets Callandor, he's not going to use it, so it won't be an avenue of attack, or something to cause a "backfire" of the True Power.

 

All of that is my own personal assessment, of course. It just doesn't seem likely to me.

 

Edit: basically I'm on the same page as Cem Onal here.

[thisguy]

So, he doesn't give it up, he's tricked. How about the rest of the theory?

 

One of the problems with trying to draw deliberate sequential parallels between established mythologies and Jordan's characters is that he always (and I think is safe to say deliberately) complicates his references. None of it turns out to be quite as "connect-the-dots" as it might be. Rand certainly has elements of Freyr - just as he has elements of Thor, Tyr, Arthur Pendragon, even Christ. But none of it plays out in the story quite the way it played out in the mythology, so trying to make predictions based on the mythology puts one of treacherous ground at best.

 

So, I tend to base an assessment of this kind of theory not on the connections which can be drawn to the sequence/elements of an existing myth, and instead rely on an analysis based on the in-world characters and their established patterns of behavior, etc. Given all that, I find this sequence very unlikely, for the reason that I don't Moridin actually wants to use Callandor so much as he'd like for Rand not to be able to use it. If Moridin gets Callandor, he's not going to use it, so it won't be an avenue of attack, or something to cause a "backfire" of the True Power.

 

All of that is my own personal assessment, of course. It just doesn't seem likely to me.

 

Edit: basically I'm on the same page as Cem Onal here.

Gotcha. I agree on the myths not going the same way - that's why I made reference to the binding of Fenris by Tyr and how it played out in WoT.

 

However, I think the possibility that Moridin will be with Mogh and Cyndane is crucial, and the fact that Cyndane was already willing to challenge the DO is especially crucial. I didn't add it to my theory (oversight) until after in an edit. If Moridin is linked with the ladies and gets his hands on Callandor while confronting Rand and his ladies, if Cyndane is able to grab control, I think she would most certainly use the power against the DO or/ and Rand, and leave herself and Mor/Mogh open to Callandor's flaw for counterstrike.

 

Thanks for your input, man. Much appreciated. I believe I'm somewhere within the realm of what will transpire. Time will tell. ;)

[thisguy]

Okay, DO being free means no Pattern and no Ilyena so it's not a credible offer. Still, he could have had Ilyena until the end of time, however short that time is, but he chose to commit suicide. Doesn't that count?

 

Well, no matter. Rand knows he needs Callandor. He wouldn't willingly give it up to Shadow for anything.

So, he doesn't give it up, he's tricked. How about the rest of the theory?

Like I said I don't think Moridin wants Callandor for himself or needs it. I don't have a theory myself as to what's going to happen so I don't know what the onyx hand is about. Even it refers to something to do with Moridin, I don't think the viewing means him literally wielding Callandor.

 

I don't think the Onyx hand has to do with Moridin, I think that's Rand. Somehow, I think the baddies will get their hands on Callandor, though. It very well could be part of their plans as it seems unlikely that Rand (from the Prophecies) can seal the Bore without it.

[thisguy]

I'm going to put this in an edit too, I predict that after the bore is sealed and rand is dead Narishma will Come After and take hold of Callandor and use its power to eradicate many a bad guy burning brighter than the sun.

 

 

Or, not. We'll see.

[MarkDiLillo]

Awesome work. I like the sound of most of this. I had assumed that Moridin will chain Graendal up and it will be his 3 chicks as a mirror of Rand and his 3 women, but I think you're right. It's not Rand's gfs that are going to be mirrored, but the two he has in his Callandor circle.

[thisguy]

Awesome work. I like the sound of most of this. I had assumed that Moridin will chain Graendal up and it will be his 3 chicks as a mirror of Rand and his 3 women, but I think you're right. It's not Rand's gfs that are going to be mirrored, but the two he has in his Callandor circle.

Thanks, man.

 

Hahaha! I never thought about that. Rand and his three wives vs Moridin and his three.... S&M submissives. ;)