AMOL worries

[Treemaster]

Third, the reason Cadsuane was relevant to this discussion is because she's an example of Sanderson's infantilizing certain characters as a method of building others. It's visible there, as well as between Egwene and certain Sitters (in contradiction to what's been said above, RJ did more of Egwene in TGS, but ToM was again mainly BS), and in the other direction between Rand and Egwene. It's not a matter of whether Cadsuane's character is lovable (the different voices Brandon sometimes write is indeed an inherit part of his not being RJ), it's a matter of consistency and childish writing (it's the same with Mistlings and Mistborn in those books, BTW, when Vin is very impressed with their capabilities, but whenever Kelsier is involved he's suddenly the omnipotent joker-card).

 

 

I don't know if this third comment is aimed at me, but it feels like it. If so -- wow, just wow.

 

I don't post often, but when I do I put a lot of thought into it. I did precisely that for my post. Further, I directly addressed the issue that you have unilaterally decided that this thread must be about -- whether Cadsuane's scene with Tam qualifies as "childish writing" on Brandon's part. The original poster did not make the topic nearly so narrow, and nothing other than your power as moderator gives you the right to decide what must be discussed in threads. Apparently you simply disagree with me. That's fine, but to act as though I didn't follow your directives is simply wrong.

 

Worse yet, you failed to follow Mr Ares advice: "f you wish to put forward a justification of your dislike don't be surprised if people poke holes in it. That's the problem - people are putting forward reasons which don't match with the text."

 

You did not even attempt to respond to anything I said with respect to Cadsuane, Brandon's writing, or Egwene. In fact, all you say about Egwene is that I got the facts about what Sanderson said in an interview wrong. Probably true. Even then, I would say that no one can no for certain who wrote what. Regardless, you don't say anything about the merits of my argument -- that Egwene's arc has been implausible for a long time.

 

As you are the moderator but evidently intolerant of any dissenting views, I don't see the need to come back to these forums. I have plenty of other ways to waste my time when I should be working. And there are plenty of other places to voice opinions about The Wheel of Time.

 

Farewell.

[yoniy0]

I don't know if this third comment is aimed at me, but it feels like it. If so -- wow, just wow.

It wasn't, not in particular. It was a summery of my view on the matter, and did lean-on and refer-to things said earlier in the thread -- your comment about Egwene in TGS and Tom among them.

As such, I do believe you misunderstood the limits I've set for this thread. They are: evidence for how TGS & ToM were written and implications for AMoL, as per the OP's premise. The argument that ensued for the last couple of pages had nothing to do with that (though it was useful as a base-line, if we could keep it contained), which is why I stopped it.

However, my position as a moderator of these boards is precisely what gives me the authority to do so, and I make no apologies for that. Yes, I will use my discretion to decide how best to facilitate constructive discussion in the WoT Discussion boards. You can always suggest different approaches to me (although, usually we'll ask that you comply with the Code of Conduct and do so in private communications), or even contact my superiors if you remain unsatisfied, but until such time as you receive a different answer we do expect you to abide by that.

 

That being said, my opinions never mix with moderation of the boards. On the contrary, I make an effort to clearly differentiate between what I say as a moderator and what I say as a fan. Everyone can disagree with me and try to poke holes in my arguments, and they often do (although, if you ask me, they're mostly wrong to doubt me). No one has ever been punished for that, and they never will (the CoC touches on that, by the way).

 

I do, however, disagree with you on the matter at hand (for the most part), and had I replied directly to your post I'd have explained exactly why; having two pages of thread to react to made that impossible in this case, I'm afraid. In that, I truly didn't follow Ares's advice (not that anyone is under any obligation to), and I fully expected others to reply on the contrary; it was simply more important to refocus the discussion than to persuade anyone with that particular post. In particular, I didn't respond to anything you said w.r.t Cadsuane, Brandon's writing or Egwene, as well as a great many things others have said, and I'm sorry if you were offended by it.

 

Finally, you are naturally free to come and go as you please. If avoiding me is your only priority, I can assure you that the social and RP sections of our forums are completely yoniy0-free. If we don't see each other again, so long, and thanks for talking with us.

[fionwe1987]

I guess that is why I have such a big problem understanding her course of action in her first scene. Oh, I do understand her reasons why (they are even spelled out in the book) but I definitely don’t agree with them. A first impression is very important (not only to the reader) and I don’t see why she wastes the opportunity by putting up a scene like that. She finds out what he’s made of, okay, but at the same time cement the relationship they can have. Either she should have made some of the other Aes Sedais do her dirty work (I know, not very noble but still) or she just have to find out the regular way; wait and see. She would very quickly see what kind of person Rand is due to the extreme situations he always ends up in. It’s as she expects that after the first meeting is over they start over on a new slate. No, they don’t. That first impression is now forever gone and Rand will have a very hard time changing his first impression of her. To me, that tactic only limits her set of tools and she doesn’t gain anything from it that she won’t be able to deduct later on.

I know we had to stop the Cadsuane discussion in general (and I certainly don't see the point in it with other people in this thread), I do think this has some relevance to the larger point of this thread.

 

Let's accept at face-value your initial judgment of her. At that point we didn't know enough, so its very possilble to get a very negative reaction to her. However, we later learn that Cadsuane had prepared a great deal before coming to Rand:

 

She had begun gathering sisters she trusted, those here with her and others, the day she first heard of strange events in Shienar—her eyes and ears had kept watch on Siuan Sanche and Moiraine Damodred for years without learning anything useful until then—

Notice that she had started making plans from what would have to be the middle of tGH or early tDR. We know some of the sisters she collected are experts on various things. We also know that Alil Riatin was likely Cadsuane's agent, or someone else in Cairhein was since in Merana's first PoV after we meet her, Cadsuane is remarkably well informed about things like the Foresaken. We also know she was in Cairhein for a time before she came to meet Rand, because she says:

 

What of the rest, out in the Aiel camp? All Elaida's, I suppose. Have they also ... apprenticed... themselves? None of us have been allowed as close as the first row of tents. These Aiel seem to have no love of Aes Sedai.

 

Dig a little deeper around Cadsuane and you'll always find more. Which brings me to my point. Undoubtedly, Brandon also had a negative first impression of Cadsuane. But if during his many re-reads, he wasn't able to catch the nuggets that paint a much better picture of Cadsuane, is it any surprise how badly he handles her? Her motivations, her skills, her mannerisms... Brandon perhaps didn't pay much attention to them, instead sticking to his first impression. So he might think that a woman who would slap and later swat the Dragon Reborn himself would have no issues using the Power on his father. Except if you pay attention it becomes obvious that while she'll gladly spank a king who deserves it, she apparently worked so hard to keep up the spirits, and extend the lives of the male channelers she captured that family members are thankful to her decades after the fact.

The theory of Rand never going to trust an Aes Sedai so I can plot and scheme behind his back anyway is flawed in the way of self-fulfilling prophecies always are.

How is this even a prophesy?

[thisguy]

I really have no interest in getting into this, but he said a self fulfilling prophecy, not a prophecy.

[fionwe1987]

I really have no interest in getting into this,

Then don't.

[Luckers]

Play nice, everyone.

[thisguy]

Lol.... there's a difference between prophecy and self-fulfilling prophecy. Sorry if that bothers you.

[Mange]

I have to confess that I didn’t realize how much Cadsuane had prepared herself before confronting Rand for the first time. Since she was unaware of how he was treated by Aes Sedais in the past (thinking of when they showed him in a box with the occasional torture) and her urgency to be updated by the sisters near Rand I assumed she was in the complete dark. That makes it better but it doesn’t change my opinion about the first meeting.

 

With self-fulfilling prophesy I meant that if Cadsuane assumes Rand is never going to trust an Aes Sedai, creates a plan that relies on that assumption which not only ignores his trust but also undermines it. Sure, Cadsuane was right, Rand never did trust her or any other Aes Sedai for that matter, but that doesn’t make the assumption true. It became true because of the assumption. Personally I think Rand in time would be able to see the person Cadsuane and not the Aes Sedai Cadsuane. Earning his trust would take time, but it would be achievable.

 

I agree with you that Cadsuane is the Shrek of Wheel of Time (layers + not a loveable first impression) and that aspect is certainly missed in Brandons version. I do think she still is true to her character though, but it is a demystified version we get to know in tGS and ToM. Her reasons are spelled out in the books, bluntly, but it is still Cadsuanes voice. I guess we don't agree about Cadsuane being true to her character in tGS and ToM.

 

If Jordan would have been able to write the scene with Tam and Cadsuane I don’t think it would have played out like that. I really don’t. That doesn’t make it unrealistic though or that Cadsuane was wrongly out of character. She had just gotten some seriously bad news which enables the option ‘freak-mode’. Everyone being out of character is actually being in character in this particular situation.

 

When I read tGS and ToM for the first time it had gone many years since I read KoD. That certainly helped smoothing out the transition (have reread the whole series since then, still liked it). Not having English as a first-language also helps with the difference in prose.

 

Edit: removed a sequence rehashing already discussed scene, no need for it...