Side of Light vs Side of the DO

[thisguy]

It's obvious who the darkfriends are, they've sworn oaths to the Dark One. How about the side of light? There are no oaths to be on the side of light. We do see people swear on the light for hope of rebirth and salavation - but they usually take that oath to show that their promise is real - example - Siuane, Leeane and Min with Gareth Byrne.

To make myself clear, there are obviously murderers, thieves, rapists, etc in RJ's world. However, they haven't all sworn themselves to the DO. They're just scum. So, are they on the side of light? A less extreme example would be any person walking the world: a merchant, a guard, rich person, poor person, etc. They don't swear to the DO but they really don't care about the fight against him either. Are they on the side of the light?

 

Just would like to know people's opinions. Thanks.

[Shig]

We'll it seems like the default setting for a person(when theyre born) is just a light-neutral sort of affiliation. Only when they actively swear their souls to the dark one do they move away from the light. Sort of like, just because a person in our world isn't a priest doesn't mean they are a satanist. Furthermore, there can just be people who are bad and are driven for other reasons, such as hate, greed, envy etc etc, eg. Couladin(basically set the path for the downfall of entire shaido clan) Sevanna(followed on with couladin's hairbrained plan) various examples within the nobility of the nations. Probably the best example is Mordeth poisoning Aridhol. The nation was essentially evil just before it consumed itself...but technically they were fighting the shadow.

 

Because heaven and hell don't exist in the WoT there doesn't really seem to be an incentive for people to be good or bad, to the point where it has been commented on by some dark friends and some of the chosen that there have been darkfriends in the current age that seem to have just sworn their souls away for the heck of it, and therefore didnt really live up to their new oaths.

[thisguy]

Yeah, it just seems to me that people in that world can do plenty of evil but not be considered a DF

[Barid Bel Medar]

"the Light" is not actually a thing, it is a term created out of the world. The only reference to any army of Light is the Children of the Light. They have their own oaths I suppose, swearing to the Light and such, but I wouldn't consider it the same thing.

 

Multiple other factions, Aiel, borderlanders etc.. have oaths swearing against the Shadow, but not really to "the Light"

 

My opinion is that, "the Shadow" being those fighting for the DO, anyone who opposes the DO can fall under the category of "the Light".

 

Seanchan, Whitecloaks, rapists, murderers, Dragonsworn etc.. all technically are a part of "the Light".

 

But yeah, no real oaths swearing to "the Light" or the creator, as they do with the DO, it is more about swearing oaths against the Shadow.

[Vardar]

It's a far step from murderer/rapist to DF. I think most criminals would be affronted or insulted if you claimed they were DFs. Hell most would probably try to take a DF down if they had a chance. I know, it's odd. But some people see crimes as a far shot from true evil.

[FarShainMael]

"Let the Lord of Chaos rule"

 

"Belief and order give strength"

 

Serious criminals- or indeed, any criminals - may not see themselves as DFs, and may not have taken those oaths to the DO; but they contribute to chaos and undermine order. That puts them in the 'accessory to the fact' class, I think.

[TristanWebb]

Does that mean damane are serving the light as they just sit quietly in place and do what they are told?

[Vardar]

Does that mean damane are serving the light as they just sit quietly in place and do what they are told?

 

Technically, I suppose it does.

 

One of the things I liked from Dragonlance was the general idea that the concept of Evil depends on your perspective. The "Evil" armies claimed what made the light the side of good? They were obeying their own Gods and trying to bring about Peace in a different way. If you've got the power you can claim whatever you want is Evil or Bad, who can stop you.

[thisguy]

Well, that's my point, it seems to me that you can be a pretty evil person in RJ's world and not a DF.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Evil doesn't = Darkfriend.

 

Most of those that fight for the Shadow are evil, true, but the Shadow is not the only force of evil in the world.

 

Mordeth's power is the perfect example, it is evil, just in a different form to the DO.

 

Of course, evil is also a matter of perspective. Is murder evil? Is slavery evil? Is thievery evil?

 

The Shadow is one "faction" of evil, those loyal to the DO. And even then, Darkfriends are not necessarily evil. Most of them are, true, but evil is not a prerequisite for being a darkfriend.

 

 

In black and white, anyone who opposes the DO is of "the Light", no matter how evil they are.

 

Kinda like Satanism. Not all evil people are worshippers of Satan, but are still as evil as any Satan-friends ever were.

[thisguy]

Evil doesn't = Darkfriend.

 

Most of those that fight for the Shadow are evil, true, but the Shadow is not the only force of evil in the world.

 

Mordeth's power is the perfect example, it is evil, just in a different form to the DO.

 

Of course, evil is also a matter of perspective. Is murder evil? Is slavery evil? Is thievery evil?

 

The Shadow is one "faction" of evil, those loyal to the DO. And even then, Darkfriends are not necessarily evil. Most of them are, true, but evil is not a prerequisite for being a darkfriend.

 

 

In black and white, anyone who opposes the DO is of "the Light", no matter how evil they are.

 

Kinda like Satanism. Not all evil people are worshippers of Satan, but are still as evil as any Satan-friends ever were.

 

I don't agree with your last bit. Fain is not of the light at all.

[Vardar]

Well, that's my point, it seems to me that you can be a pretty evil person in RJ's world and not a DF.

 

Yep.

[thisguy]

Well, that's my point, it seems to me that you can be a pretty evil person in RJ's world and not a DF.

 

Yep.

It's pretty interesting. I like all of the texture. Someone here (I think a few people) had mentioned that RJ's world is full of sado masochism - I'm maybe a 1/6 of the way through LoC on my reread. Whoever said it is absolutely right. Everybody tries to force everyone else to do what they want.

[Vardar]

Well, that's my point, it seems to me that you can be a pretty evil person in RJ's world and not a DF.

 

Yep.

It's pretty interesting. I like all of the texture. Someone here (I think a few people) had mentioned that RJ's world is full of sado masochism - I'm maybe a 1/6 of the way through LoC on my reread. Whoever said it is absolutely right. Everybody tries to force everyone else to do what they want.

 

History is written from the view of the winners. It puts a lot into perspective.

 

I try to see everyones side in my daily struggle we call life. When people talk about mass murder (Some of my friends think I'm crazy for this) but I wonder why the guy did what he did, and why he went about it in that way. I find it really interesting that people have different viewpoints than me, and what I find acceptable someone doesn't, and what they find acceptable, I won't.

[thisguy]

Well, that's my point, it seems to me that you can be a pretty evil person in RJ's world and not a DF.

 

Yep.

It's pretty interesting. I like all of the texture. Someone here (I think a few people) had mentioned that RJ's world is full of sado masochism - I'm maybe a 1/6 of the way through LoC on my reread. Whoever said it is absolutely right. Everybody tries to force everyone else to do what they want.

 

History is written from the view of the winners. It puts a lot into perspective.

 

I try to see everyones side in my daily struggle we call life. When people talk about mass murder (Some of my friends think I'm crazy for this) but I wonder why the guy did what he did, and why he went about it in that way. I find it really interesting that people have different viewpoints than me, and what I find acceptable someone doesn't, and what they find acceptable, I won't.

 

That's true. But, in RJ's world, I think people think if you're not a DF, you're a good guy. I don't think that's the case at all.

[Vardar]

I think it's more the other way around, either you're a Good guy, or you're a DF. I.E. If you do bad, they assume you must be a DF.

 

Unless you're a whitecloak, then everyone who doesn't do as they say is a DF.

[thisguy]

I think it's more the other way around, either you're a Good guy, or you're a DF. I.E. If you do bad, they assume you must be a DF.

 

Unless you're a whitecloak, then everyone who doesn't do as they say is a DF.

What I'm saying is - you could kill 12 people in RandLand in cold blood and never swear your soul to the DO and want nothing to do with the DO. So, you're basically a cold blooded murderer but not a DF. If that's the case, I don't think you're for the light either.

[Pinzarn]

I look at it as degrees or levels of evil. You can range from someone that is not-so-nice all the way to pure evil with many different descriptions inbetween. Is a petty theif evil? Nope, and I doubt anyone would consider the petty theif a DF. I would even say that murderers or rapists are definitely very bad scum of the earth, but I don't think they are necessarily DF.

 

As far as the Last Battle, I would imagine that "bad people, but not to the level of DF" would fight for the Light, but I expect them more to look out for them selves without any true acts of bravery. For the various criminals and prisoners, they still want to have a society that they can operate in rather than being in a Trolloc cook pot.

 

Edit: Think of it more as the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Sure, if a criminal sees an oppurtunity to "improve" his life by supporting the Dark, then I would expect them to do that, but I also think a fair number would also support the Light because it is better (for them) than the Dark.

[fuzz1717]

Its all a shade of gray. If we take black to be the DO and white to be the Creator, then everyone falls in a different shade of grey. Logically, Jesus Rand is white, while Moridin is black. A murderer may be a darker shade of grey than say a petty theif, but perhaps they are both a darker shade of grey than a honest merchant. In the end, perhaps some people that are too "dark" may sit out of TG, but in general most of the middling people will end up fighting because if they lose TG, then it doesn't matter if you are light or dark, according to Moridin. Everyone dies if TG is lost, even the DFs.

[thisguy]

You're both probably correct. But, I wouldn't call it fighting for the light, I'd call it fighting for your "self".

[Barid Bel Medar]

The point is, there is no such thing as "the Light".

 

The only actual force is "the Shadow".

 

There is only For or Against the Shadow.

 

And I suppose there is a neutral "don't care".

 

 

 

It has nothing to do with evil or bad. The Light is a made up term, with no in book relevance, it is a term people use to describe the "good guys".

 

Edit: Fain, however, may be something different. Mordeth's power is strange, so I think it is safe to say that he is a whole faction on his own.

 

Only Rand is reallying fighting "for the Light". The rest are just fighting so they don't get destroyed by Shadowspawn.

 

Edit edit: I suppose you could throw in the Whitecloaks, as they are kinda "for the Light" in a messed up way.

 

But Mat, Perrin, Nynaeve, Egwene etc.. are all fighting to protect the world from the DO, not for the creator, or the Light in the same way a murderer would fight the DO so he isn't killed.

[thisguy]

The point is, there is no such thing as "the Light".

 

The only actual force is "the Shadow".

 

There is only For or Against the Shadow.

 

And I suppose there is a neutral "don't care".

 

 

 

It has nothing to do with evil or bad. The Light is a made up term, with no in book relevance, it is a term people use to describe the "good guys".

 

Edit: Fain, however, may be something different. Mordeth's power is strange, so I think it is safe to say that he is a whole faction on his own.

 

Only Rand is reallying fighting "for the Light". The rest are just fighting so they don't get destroyed by Shadowspawn.

 

I agree. What I wanted to get across was, you can basically be evil or a total scumbag, however you want to put it, and have nothing to do with being a DF.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Yeah, pretty much.

 

I think it is a good thing, rather than just good v evil.

 

I think it is a very interesting subject, which leads to "what does it mean to fight the DO".

 

Does it mean killing Shadowspawn? Being a good person? "Belief and order?"

 

The Tinkers are interesting in this regard, I think that they will show a different side to opposing the Shadow.

[thisguy]

Yeah, pretty much.

 

I think it is a good thing, rather than just good v evil.

 

I think it is a very interesting subject, which leads to "what does it mean to fight the DO".

 

Does it mean killing Shadowspawn? Being a good person? "Belief and order?"

 

The Tinkers are interesting in this regard, I think that they will show a different side to opposing the Shadow.

 

EXACTLY!!!! I mentioned somewhere else that it's interesting that the AS take 3 oaths but none of them is to serve the light. NOT ONE.

[fuzz1717]

Yeah, pretty much.

 

I think it is a good thing, rather than just good v evil.

 

I think it is a very interesting subject, which leads to "what does it mean to fight the DO".

 

Does it mean killing Shadowspawn? Being a good person? "Belief and order?"

 

The Tinkers are interesting in this regard, I think that they will show a different side to opposing the Shadow.

 

EXACTLY!!!! I mentioned somewhere else that it's interesting that the AS take 3 oaths but none of them is to serve the light. NOT ONE.

 

Hmm I never thought about that. They have what, no lies, no OP except in danger or shadowspawn, no making of weapons. Maybe it would be useful to have a "never remove these oaths" and "serve only the Light" oath. Those would make BA recruitment a little trickier.

 

@Barid Bel Medar: What do you think the Tinkers will do? I completely forgot about them, I just sorta filed them out of my mind after Aram turned all violent.