Olver, Elayne, and Caemlyn

[Vardar]

@Vandramus I know what you mean about Waygate and the Black Wind, I didn't forget that. However, the impression I got from the Letter was that this wasn't a problem. As Verin says, it is thought to be secure, which I would think takes into account the fact you mentioned, everyone thinks that no large forces can move through the Ways. However, as she says, they are not secure.

 

Yea but it's not about the dark one not caring about losing forces, the more that travel at once, the faster the black wind comes. Tossing 100k trollocs at it won't stop, he'd just consume them all. It's a HUGE plot hole. Gigantic. I'm guessing we're going to be expected to ignore this fact that has been stated multiple times in the series.

 

Oh, suddenly large forces can travel thru the ways without attracting the black wind. It's cool now. It happened off camera...

 

No. Don't disrespect us like that.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Yea but it's not about the dark one not caring about losing forces, the more that travel at once, the faster the black wind comes. Tossing 100k trollocs at it won't stop, he'd just consume them all. It's a HUGE plot hole. Gigantic. I'm guessing we're going to be expected to ignore this fact that has been stated multiple times in the series.

 

Oh, suddenly large forces can travel thru the ways without attracting the black wind. It's cool now. It happened off camera...

 

No. Don't disrespect us like that.

 

All I am saying is that the possibilities are open. We do not know enough about the Shadow's innovations, ter'angreal and power to rule it out.

 

We already have had large forces move through the Ways. When Rand was attacked in KoD, for example, there were thousands upon thousands. And Moridin comments that large forces are being moved through the Ways under the command of someone pretending to be Sammael. It is not exactly something out of the blue.

[RandA lThor]

Yea but it's not about the dark one not caring about losing forces, the more that travel at once, the faster the black wind comes. Tossing 100k trollocs at it won't stop, he'd just consume them all. It's a HUGE plot hole. Gigantic. I'm guessing we're going to be expected to ignore this fact that has been stated multiple times in the series.

 

Oh, suddenly large forces can travel thru the ways without attracting the black wind. It's cool now. It happened off camera...

 

No. Don't disrespect us like that.

 

All I am saying is that the possibilities are open. We do not know enough about the Shadow's innovations, ter'angreal and power to rule it out.

 

We already have had large forces move through the Ways. When Rand was attacked in KoD, for example, there were thousands upon thousands. And Moridin comments that large forces are being moved through the Ways under the command of someone pretending to be Sammael. It is not exactly something out of the blue.

 

I will have to go with both of you on this one, I think that RJ would not have forgotten this and will come up with something that allows the Trollocs to go through. For example, if Padan Fain was with them, they would be good.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Just re: the stated multiple times.

 

Yes, it has been stated that it is impossible several times. That is one of the key features in WoT. When someone says something is impossible, you can be damn sure that it is exactly the opposite.

 

We are told multiple times that Stilling cannot be healed. 5 books later: Stilling healed.

[RandA lThor]

Going through the Ways without Machin Shin is not impossible though, Fain can drive Machin Shin away.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Going through the Ways without Machin Shin is not impossible though, Fain can drive Machin Shin away.

 

Well actually, that is not quite true. The only thing we know about their "relationship" is that Fain isn't destroyed by Machin Shin. He doesn't drive it away, actually, it is the opposite, he attracts it.

 

INTERVIEW: Sep 2nd, 2005

DragonCon Report - Isabel (Paraphrased)

 

QUESTION

In The Great Hunt when Rand, Mat and Perrin are trying to enter the Ways, Machin Shin is waiting there for them. It seems like Padan Fain has been waiting there for them. Is Machin Shin in any way related to the evil of Shadar Logoth?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

 

In some ways. Machin Shin is linked or you might say drawn to that. It's not a matter of linked, but more attracted by. In much the same ways as I spoke about the evils being attracted to one another due to opposite polarities. (Shadar Logoth and the taint)

 

In the same way there is an attraction because Machin Shin was created in effect by the taint. It grew out. You can see is at a fungus that was constructed with the wrong type of materials. If you think about it as that way you get a more idea about its true nature.

[Vardar]

Just re: the stated multiple times.

 

Yes, it has been stated that it is impossible several times. That is one of the key features in WoT. When someone says something is impossible, you can be damn sure that it is exactly the opposite.

 

We are told multiple times that Stilling cannot be healed. 5 books later: Stilling healed.

 

Yea but in the book we're never told why something is impossible, except for this. A reasonable reason is given which makes perfect sense. It's a solid reason that would have to be destroyed for it to work.

 

As to the comment at the manor house about the attack, They had access to the ways and portal stones, possibly more than one way gate. There are no portal stones in Calymn and only 1 way gate. Looks bad. Also, gathering an army of trollocs in the middle of no where is easy peasy. Gathering an army in a city is IMPOSSIBLE! Well, a large army. I mean sure you can use some inverted weaves and such to hide, but thousands of trollocs? Not happening.

[FarShainMael]

Yeah, you are right, in fact I used a similar point with you in another topic, so I can hardly say anything against it

 

It is possible that Rand will be forced there by the Shadow, or even that everyone at FoM would expect him to go help out, and its not like he would just go "no, I haven't got the time. Deal with it yourself."

 

As it stands though, there is no reason for Rand to be involved, and from that quote, it is more likely he wont want to get involved.

 

Edit: Actually, there is a reason for Rand to get involved. Since this is not the AMOL board, and avoiding spoilers, I will say no more.

 

If you mean what I think you mean.... Oooooh. Lovely. What a beauty!

[RandA lThor]

@ Barid Bel Medar

I agree with the Padan Fain thing, but I still think that there are ways to trick Machin Shin and lets say if Padan Fain was somewhere else atrracting Machin Shin, the Trollocs could go through.

[baalsmistress]

When the Two Rivers was attacked, thousands of trollocs were moved through the ways to stage the assault. It's commented on by Luc that when Perrin had the waygate blocked, thousands of trollocs were killed by Machin Shin because they were unable to exit the waygate.

 

In other words, it's not that the shadowspawn are immune to Machin Shin, it's just that they're willing to absorb the losses it inflicts, and rely on the trolloc's inate dread of myrrdrall and the myrrdrall's inate fear of their overlords to do the driving.

 

As has already been pointed out, a viewpoint character stating that something is impossible means nothing more than they believe it to be impossible, in which case they might be either correct or incorrect. Or it means they are lying.

 

If I recall correctly, we don't actually know the status of machin shin at the moment in any case. I believe it was theorised by characters in the books to be a creation of the taint on Saidin. If that is actually the case, there is the possibility that the clensing of Saidin by Rand will have resulted in a reversal of fortunes for it. Perhaps it was growing for 3000 years by the taint seeping into it and feeding it. If that is the case, then the removal of the taint may well have Machin Shin on the power equivilent of a starvation diet that will weaken it and eventually lead to it's destruction.

[RandA lThor]

When the Two Rivers was attacked, thousands of trollocs were moved through the ways to stage the assault. It's commented on by Luc that when Perrin had the waygate blocked, thousands of trollocs were killed by Machin Shin because they were unable to exit the waygate.

 

In other words, it's not that the shadowspawn are immune to Machin Shin, it's just that they're willing to absorb the losses it inflicts, and rely on the trolloc's inate dread of myrrdrall and the myrrdrall's inate fear of their overlords to do the driving.

 

As has already been pointed out, a viewpoint character stating that something is impossible means nothing more than they believe it to be impossible, in which case they might be either correct or incorrect. Or it means they are lying.

 

If I recall correctly, we don't actually know the status of machin shin at the moment in any case. I believe it was theorised by characters in the books to be a creation of the taint on Saidin. If that is actually the case, there is the possibility that the clensing of Saidin by Rand will have resulted in a reversal of fortunes for it. Perhaps it was growing for 3000 years by the taint seeping into it and feeding it. If that is the case, then the removal of the taint may well have Machin Shin on the power equivilent of a starvation diet that will weaken it and eventually lead to it's destruction.

 

This is a fairly reasonable explanation of what can happen as we have not visited the Ways after saidin was cleansed. This means that this is another option that is possible for trollocs getting through the Ways.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Even though it would help my argument, the cleansing did not destroy Machin Shin.

 

QUESTION

Would it be cleaned with the Cleansing of saidin?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

No. Its like a bacteria breed. Just by cleaning up the chemicals that caused the bacteria to come into existence, unless it's feeding on that, those chemicals, you are not going to destroy the bacteria. You simply cut off what helped to create it

.

 

That does not mean that Machin Shin is not destroyed, or altered. Just that the Cleansing didn't do it.

 

Since it is an effect of the Taint, I would say the DO and Shadow could do something about it. Not that it works for the DO, as it kills Shadowspawn as well as any other, just that the Shadow could alter or destroy it, since it is a growth of the DO basically. It could be that is what Demandred has been up to. We haven't actually seen Machin Shin since, what, at least PoD. Demandred making it safe to travel the ways? Or at least for Shadowspawn. Remember that Moiraine drove it back a bit in EotW, although it wasn't that effective. A Forsaken on the other hand, may be able to do something better.

 

Point being, there are plenty of reasonable solutions, and there are hints of large forces of Shadowspawn moving through the Ways in earlier book. Sammael's "pretender" is one I see hasn't been addressed.

 

But really, if you don't think the possibilities are valid, fair enough. Could be right. We will have to RAFO, I guess.

[FarShainMael]

Yeah, you are right, in fact I used a similar point with you in another topic, so I can hardly say anything against it

 

It is possible that Rand will be forced there by the Shadow, or even that everyone at FoM would expect him to go help out, and its not like he would just go "no, I haven't got the time. Deal with it yourself."

 

As it stands though, there is no reason for Rand to be involved, and from that quote, it is more likely he wont want to get involved.

 

Edit: Actually, there is a reason for Rand to get involved. Since this is not the AMOL board, and avoiding spoilers, I will say no more.

 

If you mean what I think you mean.... Oooooh. Lovely. What a beauty!

 

Hmm. Let's just play with this a bit..  

 

 

The scene: Caemlyn in battle. Mat, Thom, and Moiraine trying to defend themselves against a horde of Trollocs.

 

Shifts to Rand, at the FoM, wondering where Mat's got to. Those colours appear in his head, and he sees Moiraine, and recognises their location.

 

Thom tries to defend Moiraine and dies in the attempt.

 

Rand drops everything and Travels to rescue them. He wipes out all the Trollocs in the city with a nasty look and a shaken finger.

 

He looks at Moiraine. Their eyes meet.

 

Moiraine:  "....Lews Therin....???"

 

Rand: "...............................................Ilyena????"

 

 

[Barid Bel Medar]

@FSM

 

how good would that be!

 

Goodbye Thom One slight change:

Who is actually Demandred, because Demandred supposedly wanted Ilyena. Rand dies at Thom's hand, but is brought back! Mat offs Thomandred, fulfilling the possible foreshadowing of the two gambler generals fighting

 

 

[FarShainMael]

@FSM

 

how good would that be!

 

Goodbye Thom One slight change:

Who is actually Demandred, because Demandred supposedly wanted Ilyena. Rand dies at Thom's hand, but is brought back! Mat offs Thomandred, fulfilling the possible foreshadowing of the two gambler generals fighting

 

 

 

[fikkie77]

Yeah, you are right, in fact I used a similar point with you in another topic, so I can hardly say anything against it

 

It is possible that Rand will be forced there by the Shadow, or even that everyone at FoM would expect him to go help out, and its not like he would just go "no, I haven't got the time. Deal with it yourself."

 

As it stands though, there is no reason for Rand to be involved, and from that quote, it is more likely he wont want to get involved.

 

Edit: Actually, there is a reason for Rand to get involved. Since this is not the AMOL board, and avoiding spoilers, I will say no more.

 

If you mean what I think you mean.... Oooooh. Lovely. What a beauty!

 

Hmm. Let's just play with this a bit..

 

 

The scene: Caemlyn in battle. Mat, Thom, and Moiraine trying to defend themselves against a horde of Trollocs.

 

Shifts to Rand, at the FoM, wondering where Mat's got to. Those colours appear in his head, and he sees Moiraine, and recognises their location.

 

Thom tries to defend Moiraine and dies in the attempt.

 

Rand drops everything and Travels to rescue them. He wipes out all the Trollocs in the city with a nasty look and a shaken finger.

 

He looks at Moiraine. Their eyes meet.

 

Moiraine: "....Lews Therin....???"

 

Rand: "...............................................Ilyena????"

 

 

Except... I think that Rand would do the recognising...

[FarShainMael]

It would definitely go both ways.

[Barid Bel Medar]

A semi-serious note, we never did figure out how Moiraine knew that it was Sammael and Be'lal in Illian and Tear...

 

Probably should get back on topic though...

 

 

SO, who do we think will be invovled in the Battle?

 

Talmanes and Olver certainly.

 

Birgitte should be there, and perhaps Elayne will be there, but I can't see her actually fighting much, although it would irritate her to no end, everyone would shut her up and keep her safe.

 

Morgase, Gawyn and Galad look like possibilities, since it is their kingdom.

 

Mat will likely go back to save the Dragons and help Olver/Talmanes/Band

 

Unknown:

 

Perrin: IF Galad wants to go, will Perrin go as well? He has overall control of the Whitecloaks, will he just let Galad go off?

 

Egwene: Will she bring the Aes Sedai to help? Will they be too busy with their own problems? (Seanchan or Rand)

 

Rand: Will he bother going to the battle? Or will be stay true to his word and not fight the Shadowspawn again.

 

Taim: Will he turn up to help the Shadow?

 

Logain: Will he have defeated Taim, break out of the lockdown to help the city?

 

 

 

 

 

My bet is that Perrin will go, Egwene and Rand will not, Egwene will have her own problems with the Seanchan, and Rand will help her out, having failed with the Seanchan earlier, and wanting to make a mends, plus bring the Seanchan under his Dragon Peace. Taim will have sent Dreadlords, but stay at the BT, then Rand/Androl/Logain/Naeff/Pevera etc... will bring an end to Taim's reign of terror, and thus send help to Caemlyn.

 

(I am predicting Caemlyn battle will be longer than a day or two, possibly a week or so.)

[FarShainMael]

Hmmm......

 

I didn't do much thinking about that, I must admit. Will review.

[bbarrett90]

Yeah, you are right, in fact I used a similar point with you in another topic, so I can hardly say anything against it

 

It is possible that Rand will be forced there by the Shadow, or even that everyone at FoM would expect him to go help out, and its not like he would just go "no, I haven't got the time. Deal with it yourself."

 

As it stands though, there is no reason for Rand to be involved, and from that quote, it is more likely he wont want to get involved.

 

Edit: Actually, there is a reason for Rand to get involved. Since this is not the AMOL board, and avoiding spoilers, I will say no more.

 

If you mean what I think you mean.... Oooooh. Lovely. What a beauty!

 

Hmm. Let's just play with this a bit..

 

 

The scene: Caemlyn in battle. Mat, Thom, and Moiraine trying to defend themselves against a horde of Trollocs.

 

Shifts to Rand, at the FoM, wondering where Mat's got to. Those colours appear in his head, and he sees Moiraine, and recognises their location.

 

Thom tries to defend Moiraine and dies in the attempt.

 

Rand drops everything and Travels to rescue them. He wipes out all the Trollocs in the city with a nasty look and a shaken finger.

 

He looks at Moiraine. Their eyes meet.

 

Moiraine: "....Lews Therin....???"

 

Rand: "...............................................Ilyena????"

 

 

 

We don't have to get into details, but just curious, is there actually any sort of evidence for this? Because if there is, my mind has been blown. it seems like both of you are on the same track which makes me think there is something to it.

[Barid Bel Medar]

We don't have to get into details, but just curious, is there actually any sort of evidence for this? Because if there is, my mind has been blown. it seems like both of you are on the same track which makes me think there is something to it.

Heh, not really, it was a bit of a joke. I suppose there IS some "evidence". They got along well together, when Rand realised she was not trying to turn him into a puppet. She was the only Aes Sedai Rand trusted (real Aes Sedai, not one that he knew before, then they became Aes Sedai) and Moiraine is dedicated to the Dragon Reborn, thus Rand. She sacrificed herself to kill Lanfear, who wanted Rand. And she seemed to know Sammael and Be'lal, not just that a Forsaken was in the city, but which ones, which suggest prior experience with them. And they need not be actual lovers, like Gaidal and Birgitte are always, just two souls that are often woven together. Plus Moiraine's name is at the top of his "women death list", which is up with Ilyena's name.

 

Not totally serious here, just a bit of fun.

[gunslinger6792]

I think talmanes and the rest of the band can hold their own until help arrives.

[FarShainMael]

@Tamyrlin1: Also, it's something I've been wondering about since one of the chapters of TGS.

 

 

VoG of course.. when Rand realises that Ilyena can be reincarnated too

 

 

A joke? I will split my sides if it turns out to be true!

 

@gunslinger: First Mat and co have to reach the Band..

[Barid Bel Medar]

Oh dear, no more, I don't want to get started actually seriously thinking about the possibility! Thinking about it a bit, it starts to make more sense all the time

 

Gunslinger: Yeah, Talmanes could hold out, depends what he is doing though, if he is trying to save the city, with the Shadowspawn invaded, he won't last long. If he goes to the Cannons and holes himself up to wait for Mat and co. then yeah, he has a chance.

[TristanWebb]

Rand has to go pretty close to Caemlyn to fix the black tower anyway, could save the city on his way through. I doubt if Elayne asked him to help he would say no though, he may be all sparkly now but he became that way because he is in love.