one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Guest Egwene]

Ten pages to catch up on!!!!! I've only been away for a few days :shock:

 

Have to suport Bob in his interpretation of Fader's post. I too read it as 'RJ said only 2 people guessed it correctly' and 'later quotes by RJ confirmed it couldn't have been greandal....'. In fact, I posted something to that effect at the time. Just because the majority here seemed to have interpreted it differently, does not mean that it wasn't put slightly ambigious.

 

The argument 'there is more of us believing in such and such' to get someone to quit their line of thought is definately not a good point in this particular debate. (it was after all a very small minority that guessed the killer correctly at one stage)

 

Why can't Lanfear/Moiraine opposers not acknowledge the fact that their deaths through the doorway were alwasys just a rumor? They dissapeared and Lan felt that the bond was cut. Why anyone would interpret that at the time as two of the most elaborate characters in the series up to that point being killed of in one stroke is beyond me. It seemed to me immediately obvious that there whould be a means of re-introducing them into the story other than by the doorway that burned. So when people put up their lists of who could have been there at the time of the murder L&M should be on it.

 

PoVs and absence of previous mentionings - let's equate them to a jigsaw. We have enough of the pieces(=clues) by the end of FoH that we should be able to recognise the killer. We know we do not have every piece. Some like 'Lanfear is confirmed alive' we did not have when Asmo was killed, but that does not mean they don't make up part of the whole picture. We had the piece that said 'she dissapeared' allowing for the possibility of her being alive. The confirmation might be part of the 'additional pieces' that RJ promised. Equally weaves that might not have been introduced yet. Just an additional piece, not neccessarily vital to being able to recognise the face of the killer.

 

When Asmo channels the goblet to Rand, a PoV (I think it was Rand's) is that it is about the extent of Asmo's ability with the power due to Lanfear's shield. That makes me question whether Asmo would infact have been able to defend himself with the power during the battle. Or is he back to full strength? In which case his changed circumstances are a good point in favour of him now being a threat to Rand. Thus lending weigth to the Moiraine theory.

 

Nearly up to date

 

Havoc's point is a good one. I think that maybe they are not entirely sure how the DO would react to them killing each other. Which is a point in favour of Lanfear i.e. she was punished for getting it wrong.

 

PS: Did anyone else notice that the female servant had the same eye colour as Rhavin's pet Aes Sedai?

[Guest cwestervelt]

Not at all' date=' unless you think special ops forces who are supposed to remain hidden are not also very brave and competent warriors. It very often is necessary to use stealth and only use violence on your prey for whatever reason.

J[/quote']

 

Spec Ops forces do not hide from imaginary dangers while openly facing tanks. They ignore the imaginary dangers and go doggo until the tanks are out of range.

 

Retaliation from the other FS for killing Asmo is an imaginary danger. Going to Caemlyn on that day is walking into the middle of a tank battle with nothing but a sidearm.

 

What are you talking about? I didn't know anyone said that the killer hid it for fear of retribution. Could you direct me to that point, because I missed it.

 

I was thinking of Graendal with my spec ops point. She was all covert going in there, but was willing to take the risk...That's what I meant..I don't know where that other thing came from.

J

 

Crap, lost me post trying to preview it... Start over...

 

Comparing Graendal to Spec Ops should be good enough to rule her out in your mind.

 

Spec Ops forces operate covertly. That means they stay hidden, they avoid confrontation unless it is mandated by the mission, or is otherwise unavoidable. And when it can't be avoided, they aren't going to reveal themselves making sure they are seen prior to attacking. The attack itself is going to be all the advance warning the target will get.

 

Graendal, and all other Foresaken except Lanfear, thought Asmodean was a traitor by his own free will. They didn't know about Lanfear's shield. As such, they would expect his immediate reaction to seeing one of them to be to grab as much Saidin as he could hold. That would do too things. The first is to make it harder to kill Asmodean. The second is to alert Rand that something is up. That means, prior to striking, they would have prepared themselves, which would also have alerted Rand and Asmodea. If the attacker was either Semirhage, Graendal, Mesaana, or Moghedien, you can add Aviendha into the list of people alerted. That provides 3 strong Channellers, 2 of which they don't have sufficient information about to know what threat they pose.

 

If any of the Foresaken were there, they would assess the risk and remain hidden, not risk being the second confirmed major kill of the day for Rand.

[havoc110]

Lanfear's alliance may or may not know about Asmo's shield. I believe it probably came up in the planning on the link ambush in Illian, but it would also be like Lanfear to keep that nugget of info to herself.

 

Lanfear's own words "Now he has Asmodean, weak ally as he is." She could just be dissing his full strength as inferior, or she could have shared knowledge of the shield.

 

Hard to say one way or the other without more evidence.

[Guest cwestervelt]

1) Compared to Lanfear, Asmodean always was week.

2) She would not have told the other Foresaken about the shield. She was the one that started "organizing" the alliance and trap. The "Asmodean traitor" was part of the justification for it. That she was the one who architected his capture would have revealed that Lanfear was the traitor and defeated her purposes.

[Jedimuppet]

Not at all' date=' unless you think special ops forces who are supposed to remain hidden are not also very brave and competent warriors. It very often is necessary to use stealth and only use violence on your prey for whatever reason.

J[/quote']

 

Spec Ops forces do not hide from imaginary dangers while openly facing tanks. They ignore the imaginary dangers and go doggo until the tanks are out of range.

 

Retaliation from the other FS for killing Asmo is an imaginary danger. Going to Caemlyn on that day is walking into the middle of a tank battle with nothing but a sidearm.

 

What are you talking about? I didn't know anyone said that the killer hid it for fear of retribution. Could you direct me to that point, because I missed it.

 

I was thinking of Graendal with my spec ops point. She was all covert going in there, but was willing to take the risk...That's what I meant..I don't know where that other thing came from.

J

 

Crap, lost me post trying to preview it... Start over...

 

Comparing Graendal to Spec Ops should be good enough to rule her out in your mind.

 

Spec Ops forces operate covertly. That means they stay hidden, they avoid confrontation unless it is mandated by the mission, or is otherwise unavoidable. And when it can't be avoided, they aren't going to reveal themselves making sure they are seen prior to attacking. The attack itself is going to be all the advance warning the target will get.

 

Graendal, and all other Foresaken except Lanfear, thought Asmodean was a traitor by his own free will. They didn't know about Lanfear's shield. As such, they would expect his immediate reaction to seeing one of them to be to grab as much Saidin as he could hold. That would do too things. The first is to make it harder to kill Asmodean. The second is to alert Rand that something is up. That means, prior to striking, they would have prepared themselves, which would also have alerted Rand and Asmodea. If the attacker was either Semirhage, Graendal, Mesaana, or Moghedien, you can add Aviendha into the list of people alerted. That provides 3 strong Channellers, 2 of which they don't have sufficient information about to know what threat they pose.

 

If any of the Foresaken were there, they would assess the risk and remain hidden, not risk being the second confirmed major kill of the day for Rand.

 

Well, Asmodean was killed, and I suspect by someone who expected to win, unless it was an accident.

 

If it was an accident, then the comment refuting my Graendal/spec ops metaphor is no longer accurate, since she wasn't trying to be found. In fact, I think she was looking for information, or maybe for ter'angreal.

 

If you expect that the attacker wanted to live, who but a forsaken would attack a forsaken?

J

[havoc110]

Good Points, CW.

 

But how's this: Sammy says: "Why did you leave him alive? You could have killed him before he knew you were there?"

 

So if you surmise that no one knows of the shield (and I am not arguing, because I think your case is good), then at least Sammy knows that Lanfear can get the drop on him and toast him without him being the wiser.

 

Now with some extrapolation, one could infer that a number of FS could attack Asmo from the shadows and toast him, even if he was at full channelling strength.

 

Also in this conversation is a hint by Lanfear that one FS killing another FS means final death.

 

As part of her answer "It is final, with no going back..."

[Jedimuppet]

Good Points' date=' CW.

 

But how's this: Sammy says: "Why did you leave him alive? You could have killed him before he knew you were there?"

 

So if you surmise that no one knows of the shield (and I am not arguing, because I think your case is good), then at least Sammy knows that Lanfear can get the drop on him and toast him without him being the wiser.

 

Now with some extrapolation, one could infer that a number of FS could attack Asmo from the shadows and toast him, even if he was at full channelling strength.

 

Also in this conversation is a hint by Lanfear that one FS killing another FS means final death.

 

As part of her answer "It is final, with no going back..."[/quote']

 

 

Or it could mean she's ignorant of the fact that the DO is willing to transmigrate them.

J

[Guest cwestervelt]

Good Points' date=' CW.

 

But how's this: Sammy says: "Why did you leave him alive? You could have killed him before he knew you were there?"

 

So if you surmise that no one knows of the shield (and I am not arguing, because I think your case is good), then at least Sammy knows that Lanfear can get the drop on him and toast him without him being the wiser.

 

Now with some extrapolation, one could infer that a number of FS could attack Asmo from the shadows and toast him, even if he was at full channelling strength.

 

Also in this conversation is a hint by Lanfear that one FS killing another FS means final death.

 

As part of her answer "It is final, with no going back..."[/quote']

 

For one thing, if Lanfear was a witness to Asmodean's "going over" to Rand, it is a logical question to ask her. The obvious answer being, "Did you expect me to take on both of them at the same time?". Avoids getting caught in a lie while provided reasonable explanation that she would have tried had she figured it safe.

 

I agree that Lanfear, and likely most of the Foresaken, where quite capable of taking out Asmodean before he knew they were there. And that is how they would have done it if they were involved. Grab the Source and immediately strike, before he has a chance to locate you and defend. Once Asmodean knows they are there present, he could try and defend, and while he would still likely loose, the delay could bring help/alert others.

 

Graendal proponents always want to have her reveal herself for the shock (or, in the case of an ambush, the stupidity) of it. Given that she quite possible had the same chance of annihilating Asmodean in a single strike as Sammael credits Lanfear with, this revealing of herself is not only unnecessary, but extremely bad tactically. If she was not confident enough that she could kill him in one blow from the shadows, she wouldn't have risked going face to face.

[Graendals favourite]

Wow, this discussion goes ahead quickly.. I've got some catching up to do, I see.

 

But I comment straight ahead, that with Asmo surprised, and you completely ready with weaves in circumstances controlled by you, even Ishamael could be killed easily.

 

Striking from the shadows is less certain, since Asmo will have chance to react, since he isn't shocked then.

[Graendals favourite]

Just imagine if Asmo'd then put up a coccoon like Rand against Aginor, it would have become a real one-on-one fight, and with Asmodean channelling, not even that for long.

 

Close range, prepared with the weaves, shocking the opponent, the kill is much more certain. And the shocked worked, with Asmodean's face paling, him speaking "you?".

[Jonn_2]

Wow' date=' this discussion goes ahead quickly.. I've got some catching up to do, I see.

 

But I comment straight ahead, that with Asmo surprised, and you completely ready with weaves in circumstances controlled by you, even Ishamael could be killed easily.

 

Striking from the shadows is less certain, since Asmo will have chance to react, since he isn't shocked then.[/quote']

 

Irrational.

[Graendals favourite]

Why is it irrational? More human behaviour, I'd say. It is clear reactions don't work as well in a state of shock, but otherwise work faster than thought.

[Guest cwestervelt]

So he isn't shocked when attacked from the shadows. Who cares, he'd be dead which is the intended result. Face to face confrontation requires either blind chance, or extreme confidence on the attackers part. If they don't think they can pull of striking from the shadows, they are not going to have the confidence in there abilities for the face to face.

 

If attacked from the shadows Asmodean would have absolutely no warning whereas he has as much reaction time as you do if you make sure you are seen. He actually has more. Making sure you are seen means that you need to wait until your target is aware of you. That means your target will be the first to react. We've seen that these people can grab the power and channel within milliseconds. Otherwise they couldn't pluck daggers without having gotten themselves prepared first. Being able to do that meens there reation time is superhuman. If you wait until you are seen, you are allowing him that couple millisecond window that he needs. Allowing yourself to be seen, you are betting on your reaction time being better than his.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Just imagine if Asmo'd then put up a coccoon like Rand against Aginor' date=' it would have become a real one-on-one fight, and with Asmodean channelling, not even that for long.

 

Close range, prepared with the weaves, shocking the opponent, the kill is much more certain. And the shocked worked, with Asmodean's face paling, him speaking "you?".[/quote']

 

The initial reaction of "You?" and the blood draining from his face doesn't imply immediate fear. It implies that he was dumbstruck by who/what he saw as he would have considered it impossible. The presence of a Foresaken would not trigger that reaction. The Foresaken would have inspired immediate fear and an immediate grab for any amount of the Power available to him. We see none of that happen. He never even tried before he died.

 

Shock is important yes. But you do not reveal yourself in an ambush. That allows your opponent to prepare not only a defense but a counter strike. Allowing your opponent to do that is stupid. That is what gets the wrong person killed because you underestimate your opponents capabilities. The shock you want is the kind that comes with sudden and overwhelming force which only allows him to react to your moves (or better yet not doesn't even allow that) and no chance of counter attacking.

[Graendals favourite]

Yes, it takes the confidence you can do it. Graendal considered it possible with Sammael if he wouldn't have known the moment she took hold of saidin.

 

Say, you suddenly notice something coming at your head, you immediately put your hand in the way, or somehow shelter your head, with no need for thoughts. It's an automatic reaction.

 

I say, the Forsaken seem to sense when they are attacked. I don't know what the warning is, but we'd see much more rooftop attacks if there was none. At the least, it is always possible they notice.

 

Not only does face-to-face give you close range, the reaction is not the same. Yes, you have to wait till the guy recognises you. However he does not know he'll be attacked before, but you, on the other hand, can prepare the weave you're going to use. You see him shocked, then attack at that moment, when he is momentarily inable to react.

 

Is it the rabbit reflex or something, you freeze when suddenly in danger, that is what humans do also. A concrete threat, like a fireball coming, is not that terrifying.

[havoc110]

"striking from the shadows" was my euphemism for attacking with surprise,

meaning Asmo doesn't see it coming until it is too late.

 

I did not mean for it to mean anything other than catching Asmo when he wasn't holding saidin, and toasting him before he could weave any type of defense.

 

Sorry for the confusion.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Yes' date=' it takes the confidence you can do it. Graendal considered it possible with Sammael if he wouldn't have known the moment she took hold of saidin.

 

Say, you suddenly notice something coming at your head, you immediately put your hand in the way, or somehow shelter your head, with no need for thoughts. It's an automatic reaction.

 

I say, the Forsaken seem to sense when they are attacked. I don't know what the warning is, but we'd see much more rooftop attacks if there was none. At the least, it is always possible they notice.

 

Not only does face-to-face give you close range, the reaction is not the same. Yes, you have to wait till the guy recognises you. However he does not know he'll be attacked before, but you, on the other hand, can prepare the weave you're going to use. You see him shocked, then attack at that moment, when he is momentarily inable to react.

 

Is it the rabbit reflex or something, you freeze when suddenly in danger, that is what humans do also. A concrete threat, like a fireball coming, is not that terrifying.[/quote']

 

Asmodean, seeing Graendal, wouldn't know he would be attacked? Come on, you can't actually believe that statement.

 

Rabbit reflex? Sorry but I disagree. Rand would have died to Bashere's thrown dagger then. Alivia would have died to Cyndane's attack in Winter's Heart. After all, Alivia didn't know Cyndane could channel, nor did she see or know what Cyndane attacked with. She still cut it.

 

A concrete threat, like a fireball coming, is not that terrifying? When it just suddenly explodes on your position like Elza used to nuke Osan'gar?. Add in the "oh crap, where is she?" element and it doesn't need to be terrifying.

 

Added

Think about this: Throughout the books, with the possible exception of Asmodean, all face to face confrontations have resulted in the underdog coming out on top. Dead Foresaken of your choice out classed Rand. Bel'al out classed Moiraine. Moghedien, with her knowledge and training out classed Nynaeve. Cyndane/Lanfear, with her knowledge and training matched or outclassed Alivia.

[Graendals favourite]

Asmodean, seeing Graendal, wouldn't know he would be attacked? Come on, you can't actually believe that statement.

 

Rabbit reflex? Sorry but I disagree. Rand would have died to Bashere's thrown dagger then. Alivia would have died to Cyndane's attack in Winter's Heart. After all, Alivia didn't know Cyndane could channel, nor did she see or know what Cyndane attacked with. She still cut it.

 

A concrete threat, like a fireball coming, is not that terrifying? When it just suddenly explodes on your position like Elza used to nuke Osan'gar?. Add in the "oh crap, where is she?" element and it doesn't need to be terrifying.

 

Well, as seen from the scene, he didn't realise it until too late.

 

A swordsman who sees someone coming with a sword automatically moves to confront the attack. No thought needed. A channeller seeing something come at him, automatically channels to stop it. Again, no though needed for that. Just reaction.

 

The same thing I was going at that, the Forsaken sense they are attacked, as with Cyndane. She couldn't know when Lanfear attacked, but she hit her weaves still. Sense something is coming at you and you defend.

 

But no one expects to meet a Forsaken behind a randomly opened door. The thing wouldn't have worked if Graendal hadn't let him recognise her, then there's her reaction time for the say first part of the "You?" and at the "No!" Asmodean is too late to counter the attack. He was surprised at seeing her, and for the short period of surprise, unable to act.

 

Actually, surprise was present also in both Be'lal and Moghedien, the balefire and the a'dam thrown at her.

[Graendals favourite]

Shock is important yes. But you do not reveal yourself in an ambush. That allows your opponent to prepare not only a defense but a counter strike. Allowing your opponent to do that is stupid. That is what gets the wrong person killed because you underestimate your opponents capabilities. The shock you want is the kind that comes with sudden and overwhelming force which only allows him to react to your moves (or better yet not doesn't even allow that) and no chance of counter attacking.

 

The sudden and overwhelming force would be Graendal's identity here, quite like a truck suddenly coming at you when you cross the road.

[Graendals favourite]

Perhaps Aginor died to Elza because he was so intent on his own attack. Distracted, I mean, like Sammael apparently intended against Graendal and Lanfear.

[rd2000]

Aginor was definately distracted by his own impending attack. However, Elza was drawing deeply from Callandor, and Aginor was as good as dead the moment Elza saw him.

[Jonn_2]

There are a couple of points I want to go back to.

 

The Finns being able to affect the outside world... I think that quote by RJ has been misinterpretted. The Finns certainly can touch the outside world, just indirectly. I cannot remember exactly, but does Mat ever mention or remember that he was physically hung from Avendesora? My recollection is that he does not remember the Foxes even touching him. He was found hanging and Rand cut him down. Mat then chokes out how those weirdos tried to kill him. What can this tell us? That some unexplained supernatural means were used to place and hang Mat OUTSIDE of the realm of the FoxFinns.

 

Now, how does that apply to Moiraine and even Lanfear as candidates (the latter, being the one I'm not convinced of)? Some like to point out that the Finns are too much of a stretch to allow for means for Moiraine and Lanfear to be there. The quote by RJ only seems to add weight to that idea for those particular naysayers. My counter is this; I remember reading the quote under the impression that their powers are limited by the fact that they cannot affect the outside world, which Mat's hanging automatically contradicts that statement. What is obvious though is that the Finns can affect the outside world by placing people with gifts or knowledge from their keeping, into play in the human realm. Otherwise, how do people know of them, deal with them, etc.

 

The argument gets muddled further when people argue that there are only limited ways to gain access to the realm of the Finns. The evidence, though, only limits humans from crossing unaided into their realm. That is to say, if a human wanted to go into their realm, he or she would have to use a particular method ie Doorway or Tower of G. No mention of what means the Finns themselves have when it comes to placing things in and outside of their realm. In fact, it's because we know so little about them that adds to the mysterious circumstances of what has happened through their intereference in matters, indeed, outside of their realm.

 

Supernatural means may have been used to put Mat on that limb with a specialised "receipt" of the transaction, the ashandarei with the old tongue text that directly refers to the bargain. Again, never a mention of the FoxFinns taking one step outside of their realm. How did Mat end up hanging from Avendesora? Supernatural, unexplained means.

 

How could Moiraine and Lanfear have been able to temporarily touch the outside world? Supernatural, and in Moiraine's case especially, unexplained means.

Seeing as Lanfear has had the opportunity to shed some light on the subject of her captivity, the only other person we need to hear from to fit a defining piece in this puzzle, is Moiraine.

 

My friends, is it not obvious that these events, the Finns, the murder of Asmodean, Mat's deal, Min's reading, Slayer's abilites, Birgitte's knowledge of the Finn Tower and ripping out of telararhiod, Moiraine's letters...They're all pieces of the same puzzle and have all yet to come together to reveal an epic mystery contained within the series.

 

How can RJ answer anything outside of the context of his writings and keep the slow reveal intact and prime for maximum impact?

 

I'm almost hesitant to go further, but I will. I'll come at it with part 2 in a little while.

 

Cheers

jon

[Jonn_2]

Asmodean' date=' seeing Graendal, wouldn't know he would be attacked? Come on, you can't actually believe that statement.

 

Rabbit reflex? Sorry but I disagree. Rand would have died to Bashere's thrown dagger then. Alivia would have died to Cyndane's attack in Winter's Heart. After all, Alivia didn't know Cyndane could channel, nor did she see or know what Cyndane attacked with. She still cut it.

 

A concrete threat, like a fireball coming, is not that terrifying? When it just suddenly explodes on your position like Elza used to nuke Osan'gar?. Add in the "oh crap, where is she?" element and it doesn't need to be terrifying. [/quote']

 

Well, as seen from the scene, he didn't realise it until too late.

 

A swordsman who sees someone coming with a sword automatically moves to confront the attack. No thought needed. A channeller seeing something come at him, automatically channels to stop it. Again, no though needed for that. Just reaction.

 

The same thing I was going at that, the Forsaken sense they are attacked, as with Cyndane. She couldn't know when Lanfear attacked, but she hit her weaves still. Sense something is coming at you and you defend.

 

But no one expects to meet a Forsaken behind a randomly opened door. The thing wouldn't have worked if Graendal hadn't let him recognise her, then there's her reaction time for the say first part of the "You?" and at the "No!" Asmodean is too late to counter the attack. He was surprised at seeing her, and for the short period of surprise, unable to act.

 

Actually, surprise was present also in both Be'lal and Moghedien, the balefire and the a'dam thrown at her.

 

This concept is waay more convoluted than it has to be. What makes it irrational is that you are trying to fit what doesn't make much sense into a space that doesn't fit simply as a means to prove your point.

 

You're trying to tell me that because Asmodean has extra sensory perception, he would be less prepared when someone just uses standard means of making their presence and intent known?

 

That's not using shock tactically. That's, as it's been said before, using stupidity stupidly.

 

It's the equivalent of instead of shooting someone in the back of the head from a safe distance, opting to sneak in close with a dagger, and get this, tapping the guy on the shoulder and saying "boo!".

 

I don't know about you, but if I were as paranoid as Asmodean surely was, I would lash out if some @$$hole snuck up on me and did that. See, I am not that paranoid and I still have a natural instinct to backhand people in the chops if they do that kind of crap to me in a dark room with no one around.

 

My dad grew up in a tough neighborhood and got mixed up with a fair bit of cr@p in his youth. to this day, if he is napping and if you touch him, he rears back for a punch, on instinct. I have a hard time believing that a criminal like Asmodean would react like a "rabbit in the headlights" if someone were dumb enough to opt for a dramatic showy kill instead of a swift and ruthless dispatch.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I'm sorry Graendal, but you really need to read your statements from a perspective that isn't already convinced Graendal did it.

 

A swordsman who sees someone coming with a sword automatically moves to confront the attack. No thought needed. A channeller seeing something come at him, automatically channels to stop it. Again, no though needed for that. Just reaction.

 

The same thing I was going at that, the Forsaken sense they are attacked, as with Cyndane. She couldn't know when Lanfear attacked, but she hit her weaves still. Sense something is coming at you and you defend.

 

Asmodean was a Channeller and a Foresaken. By your own words, he would have sensed the attack and reacted because it is an instinctive reflex.

 

Lanfear didn't act immediately upon seeing Alivia. She thought she had all the time in world and that Alivia would never see it coming. She used your "wait till you see the whites of their eyes" you seem to want us to accept in a Graendal kills Asmodean situation. Lanfear got her butt kicked.

 

Now look at Elza and Osan'gar/Dasiva. When she saw him on the hill, she deliberately avoided looking at him so that she didn't alert Osan'gar that she knew he was there. He got wasted by something he never saw coming and thus could not defend against. He didn't have anything that sensed imminent attack on his person. If he survived the attack, he was down for the count which was just as good.

 

But no one expects to meet a Forsaken behind a randomly opened door. The thing wouldn't have worked if Graendal hadn't let him recognise her, then there's her reaction time for the say first part of the "You?" and at the "No!" Asmodean is too late to counter the attack. He was surprised at seeing her, and for the short period of surprise, unable to act.

 

You contradict your previous statement to justify Graendal. Just before that, you said no thought was needed, a channeller would have reacted on instinct. Is the defense planned, or instinctive?

 

Actually, surprise was present also in both Be'lal and Moghedien, the balefire and the a'dam thrown at her.

 

Yes, and my point was that both Nynaeve and Moiraine where the underdog. Both Nynave and Moiraine should have died in their respective Foresaken battles. Revealing themselves wasn't what provided the shock. The attack itself was what provided the shock necessary for victory. The attacks were successful because Moiraine and Nynaeve were dismissed as being non-threatening. Graendal would not get dismissed that way.

 

By the way, while the "rabbit freeze" that you referred to earlier is not due to panic, but is a controlled reaction to danger. If two rabbits sense a predator, and one bolts, while the other freezes, guess which one has the better odds of survival? It isn't the one that bolted. Vision, especially peripheral, is drawn to motion. The one that bolted is actually the one that gave in to fear and panic. Darwinian selection in action. Eventually, most of the panicky rabbits removed themselves from the gene pool by getting eaten.

[Guest Egwene]

Suprise or planned attack. Whoever was behind the door had a couple of seconds hearing the last footstep, the handle being turned and as such was ahead in the game.