one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Bob T Dwarf]

No. Rand channeled:

...Rahvin he said. Or, someone did. He was not sure who.

 

Sending fire and lightning ahead of him, he stepped through and let the gateway close behind him. He was death.

 

He channels a few more times before going to T'A'R. But, he is the only one. Aviendha and Asmo were the only other channelers he had with him and they were both dead when the first Trap sprung.

 

Once they both revived after the balefire, there is no indication that Aviendha channeled at all. She still considered herself a Maiden of the Spear. She would have relied on mundane weapons for any fighting she needed to do. Asmo would not have needed to do anything. Unknown to Rand he bears a mark identifiying him as Forsaken that all Shadowspawn would recognize. No Shadowspawn would have dared try to harm him. All he had to do was stand there and hold his sword.

 

Additionally, we follow Rand as he pursues Rahvin. He trips no other traps until he gets to T'A'R. Once Rahvin is dead and he comes back to the real Caemlyn and finds everybody alive again, there is no indication that any of them trip any additional traps. Actually, about all we see is Rand balefiring Shadowspawn until they break and run away.

 

So, all those Traps that Rahvin had in place, that he thought he could lead Rand through, are still there and waiting.

[Guest Majsju]

Any traps set would either disappear with Rahvins death, or stand forever. People have been channeling several times afterwards. The traps are gone.

 

You are really grasping for that tuft of grass now...

[Bob T Dwarf]

They'd only go away if Rahvin had set them during the timeframe that got balefired away. He doesn't seem like a guy who'd wait until the last minute for things like that. He'd been planning and implementing his ambush for whoever showed up for some time. Assuming anything else doesn't jibe with his paranoia. Since we have no idea what those traps consist of, or where they were placed, it's pretty presumptuous to say that they are definitely all gone now.

 

It's especially presumptuous to say that they were all gone by the time Asmo died.

[Guest Majsju]

Well, you have Rand, Taim, Avi, Elayne, Nynaeve, a huge bunch of the Kin, Windfinders, Aes Sedai happily channeling all around the place without setting off any traps, and you don't think Graendal could manage to make a few weaves without springing one?

[Guest cwestervelt]

Rahvin was Balefired a long way back. Definitely to a point prior to when he set the trap that killed Mat, Aviendha and Asmodean. Anything short of that point would still have left them dead as the weave for the trap would have remained in existence after his death.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Agreed.

 

The timeframe for which he was balefired seems to have been about a half an hour. Possibly more. It was everything Rand could put into it.

 

That doesn't mean it was days or weeks. Heck, for all we know, what really killed Asmo was walking into one of those leftover traps.

 

What we know for certain, because Jordan has told us so, is that there was a series of traps. Laid all around the palace. We know that Rahvin expected that network of traps to be fatal.

 

Because we follow Rand, we know that he didn't trip any further traps until T'A'R.

 

Given what the author has told us, we have no cause to presume that those traps are not operative when Asmo dies.

[Bob T Dwarf]

To expand on my thought a little bit.

 

Rahvin had been expecting treachery since before the Prologue. His response to Lanfear showing up demonstrates that. So, he had been planning and preparing for quite awhile by the end of the book.

 

He couldn't have been balefired back too far in time, or his Trolloc and Myrddraal shock troops wouldn't have been there yet. Morgase had only just escaped from the palace a matter of days before Rand attacked. There were no Shadowspawn in evidence in the palace while she was still there. So, however long Rahvin got erased for, it wasn't long enough to prevent the Trollocs and Myrddraal from being there.

[havoc110]

 

Heck' date=' for all we know, what really killed Asmo was walking into one of those leftover traps.

[/quote']

 

Probably not. Asmo probably would not address a trap as "You?"

 

Although I think the traps are a valid reason to reduce Sammy as a suspect, since Moggy revealed that the traps were attuned to men.

 

Rahvin, what a chicken... He plants the dagger with the bees, to misdirect Rand at Sammy. When it doesn't go his way, instead of taking his team to Caemlyn and just reversing his and Sammy's roles, he wets his pants and runs crying all the way home. Worms have been known to show more backbone.

[Head of House Avery]

well, I dunno if there's anything from later books hinting at the culprit since I've only just finished Fires of Heaven (:(I havent read the whole series yet, I'm not sure if that's a form of blasphemy around here or not) but from what I can gather Lanfear definately did it, there was no solid proof in the paragraphs taking place at the docks that said Lanfear died and I'd have to say she'd be pretty pissed at Asmodean.

[havoc110]

well' date=' I dunno if there's anything from later books hinting at the culprit since I've only just finished Fires of Heaven (:(I havent read the whole series yet, I'm not sure if that's a form of blasphemy around here or not) but from what I can gather Lanfear definately did it, there was no solid proof in the paragraphs taking place at the docks that said Lanfear died and I'd have to say she'd be pretty pissed at Asmodean.[/quote']

 

OK, HoHA, step into the spotlight.

 

You, unlike most of us, are not tainted in any way by reading the rest of the books. As Robert Jordan has said, it should be obvious at the time of the murder. But once you've read onward, you can't put all that stuff back in the books. Some of what we have read in later books might be actual evidence, other stuff might be intentionally misleading.

 

Now give us a picture of how and why you think Lanfear did it.

 

Welcome aboard...BTW.

[havoc110]

:D ' date=' I found that inverting actually was already meantioned. Asmodean has taught it to Rand in Pale Shadows. His shield was inverted from female eyes. So we can say the Chosen could walk around with inverted disguises.[/quote']

 

I just found this passage, and it jogged my memory that someone may have posted this before.

 

I would add the following as reasonable speculation. Since Asmo seems to be the one of the weaker FS, one could assume that stronger AoL channelers (i.e. the rest of the FS) would all know about inverting.

 

Tangentially, would it be possible for all AoL channelers to have the ability that Mesaana has in masking her ability partially or completely, or is that believed to be a Talent unique to her?

[Bob T Dwarf]

The argument against inverted weaves isn't that the Forsaken wouldn't know it. They all obviously do. It's that it hadn't been mentioned yet.

 

The Mask of Mirrors is what I think you're referring to. That's something else any Forsaken should know and be able to execute.

He could not see the shield that constricted the other man's access to saidin - it was female work - but he knew it was there. Moving a goblet was about the extent of Natael's ability, now. Luckily the shield had been hidden from female eyes, too. Natael called the trick "inverting"; he did not seem able to explain it, though.

 

So, G's fave is correct. Inverting has been mentioned before Asmo gets killed.

[Bob T Dwarf]

And yet' date=' both Rand and several others, both men and women have been happily channeling all around the place without anyone springing any traps after Rahvin's death.[/quote']

 

We have no idea how any traps would be keyed. It's possible that given traps are keyed to specific individuals.

 

I've always wondered how Aes Sedai operating hundreds of years after LTT's death and thousands of years before Rand's birth could key the traps on Callandor so that only the True Dragon Reborn could wield it. Rahvin was at least the equal of any of those AS. He could construct traps that were every bit as sophisticated and person specific as anything they could construct.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Probably not. Asmo probably would not address a trap as "You?"

 

I think that depends. Maybe I just have a nasty mind, but if I were constructing traps, I'd include an element of illusion. Make the trapped one see an illusion of me. Then, depending on whether they tried to do harm to the illusory me, either nothing would happen or they die.

 

It's not too farfetched to think that Asmo opened that door, took one step, and saw an illusion of Rahvin. Thus his shock, and the blood draining from his face. The, "You?" He then tries to kill someone he knows would kill him and gets killed instead. The, "No!"

 

I don't really think that's how it happened, but it's at least as plausible as any of the inventions we've seen for any of the other channeler suspects.

[Bob T Dwarf]

well' date=' I dunno if there's anything from later books hinting at the culprit since I've only just finished Fires of Heaven (:(I havent read the whole series yet, I'm not sure if that's a form of blasphemy around here or not) but from what I can gather Lanfear definately did it, there was no solid proof in the paragraphs taking place at the docks that said Lanfear died and I'd have to say she'd be pretty pissed at Asmodean.[/quote']

 

Not blasphemy at all. We could really use a fresh set of eyes and a new perspective. Jump in and get your feet wet.

 

Lanfear doesn't make a very good candidate, however. She has the small problem of either being stuck in Finnland or being dead so far as any of us can tell.

[rd2000]

 

Once they both revived after the balefire' date=' there is no indication that Aviendha channeled at all. [/quote']

 

Actually, Aviendha was using fire to kill Trollocs/Fade's when Rand came upon them. That's how he knew she was alive, by the fire she was using while fighting. He couldn't see thru the mass of Trollocs who they were fighting, and upon seeing the fire being used against them, he frantically came to their rescue.

[Bob T Dwarf]

You are correct.

 

I remembered he saw the banner, but I forgot about the balls of fire. Aviendha was channeling. It could only be her. Asmo wouldn't have been. That would have given away who he was, or at least what he was.

[Jedimuppet]

You are correct.

 

I remembered he saw the banner' date=' but I forgot about the balls of fire. Aviendha was channeling. It could only be her. Asmo wouldn't have been. That would have given away who he was, or at least what he was.[/quote']

 

Asmo *was* channeling. Rand specifically notices that.

 

J

[Paradoxic]

A few pages ago Bob posted a shopping list for the Forsaken that said (I'm paraphrasing)

 

1. Free the DO.

2. Kill or cow everyone else in order to become Nae'blis.

 

There's a third point that is related to point 2; one that references Graendal:

 

3. Avoid being killed (by Forsaken, Rand, Aes Sedai, bad fish, falling off a horse, upsetting the DO, etc)

 

Not talking about how good you are doing for point 2 helps your progress in point 3.

 

The sniper and the machine-gunner may both get the same number of kills, but the machine-gunner is much more likely to be taken down himself because he is out there and obvious.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Asmo *was* channeling. Rand specifically notices that.

 

J

 

He was certainly ready to channel.

... And Asmodean' date=' sword held awkwardly and trying to look every way at once in case any Trolloc decided to turn back. Rand could sense [i']saidin[/i] in him, though weakly; he did not think much of Asmodean's fighting had been with that blade.

 

But, the set-to where inverting got mentioned happened because Asmo had tried to float a goblet of wine to Rand when other people were around. Rand specifically ordered him never to channel in the presence of anyone else.

 

Hundreds of Trollocs trying to kill everyone is certainly a desperate circumstance that might supercede that prohibition, but self-survival also means that he absolutely cannot reveal he has the ability to channel. I think he was ready to if it came to his life being in imminent danger, but he wouldn't have actually done it otherwise. Aviendha, Mat and the Aiel all trapped in that pocket were taking care of any who got too close, so his situation wasn't quite that desperate. Rand thinking he might have channeled doesn't mean that he actually did. Rand, like everyone else in the series, often draws incorrect conclusions.

 

If Asmo did actually channel, then he just drew a big bullseye on his own chest for anybody who witnessed it to take their best shot. If he channeled, our suspect pool just got a whole lot bigger.

[Jedimuppet]

Asmo *was* channeling. Rand specifically notices that.

 

J

 

He was certainly ready to channel.

... And Asmodean' date=' sword held awkwardly and trying to look every way at once in case any Trolloc decided to turn back. Rand could sense [i']saidin[/i] in him, though weakly; he did not think much of Asmodean's fighting had been with that blade.

 

But, the set-to where inverting got mentioned happened because Asmo had tried to float a goblet of wine to Rand when other people were around. Rand specifically ordered him never to channel in the presence of anyone else.

 

Hundreds of Trollocs trying to kill everyone is certainly a desperate circumstance that might supercede that prohibition, but self-survival also means that he absolutely cannot reveal he has the ability to channel. I think he was ready to if it came to his life being in imminent danger, but he wouldn't have actually done it otherwise. Aviendha, Mat and the Aiel all trapped in that pocket were taking care of any who got too close, so his situation wasn't quite that desperate. Rand thinking he might have channeled doesn't mean that he actually did. Rand, like everyone else in the series, often draws incorrect conclusions.

 

If Asmo did actually channel, then he just drew a big bullseye on his own chest for anybody who witnessed it to take their best shot. If he channeled, our suspect pool just got a whole lot bigger.

 

It said that Rand did not think his fighting had been done with the blade? What's that mean to you, Kung Fu?

 

Asmo did channel, and it throws many of your assumptions about the problem out the window.

 

And my suspect pool is no larger because I didn't start out by artificially constraining it.

J

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

3. Avoid being killed (by Forsaken' date=' Rand, Aes Sedai, bad fish, falling off a horse, upsetting the DO, etc)

 

Not talking about how good you are doing for point 2 helps your progress in point 3.

 

The sniper and the machine-gunner may both get the same number of kills, but the machine-gunner is much more likely to be taken down himself because he is out there and obvious.[/quote']

 

A sniper can only endanger anyone when they know which way to point that rifle.

 

Please find anywhere in FoH or any subsequent book where any of the Forsaken indicate an intention to go to Caemlyn, having gone to Caemlyn, having been in Caemlyn... anything that tells us even one of them knew where Asmo was.

 

Sam, Graendal, and Lanfear went to Caemlyn in the Prologue and hatched their plan to make Rand go after Sam. Rahvin made very clear that none of them were ever to show up on his doorstep uninvited. "If you want to speak with me, send an emmissary, and I will decide when and where. And if." None of them would be dropping by to borrow a cup of sugar.

[Jedimuppet]

 

3. Avoid being killed (by Forsaken' date=' Rand, Aes Sedai, bad fish, falling off a horse, upsetting the DO, etc)

 

Not talking about how good you are doing for point 2 helps your progress in point 3.

 

The sniper and the machine-gunner may both get the same number of kills, but the machine-gunner is much more likely to be taken down himself because he is out there and obvious.[/quote']

 

A sniper can only endanger anyone when they know which way to point that rifle.

 

Please find anywhere in FoH or any subsequent book where any of the Forsaken indicate an intention to go to Caemlyn, having gone to Caemlyn, having been in Caemlyn... anything that tells us even one of them knew where Asmo was.

 

Sam, Graendal, and Lanfear went to Caemlyn in the Prologue and hatched their plan to make Rand go after Sam. Rahvin made very clear that none of them were ever to show up on his doorstep uninvited. "If you want to speak with me, send an emmissary, and I will decide when and where. And if." None of them would be dropping by to borrow a cup of sugar.

 

Ok Bob, we'll tell you how a forsaken knew as soon as you tell us how Bashere would know, and why that's not a stretch, but a Forsaken is.

 

This will be a good one, methinks.

J

[TheMasterDude]

I gotta go with Graendal because I remember someone confinced me a long time ago with a good explination of who did it.

[Bob T Dwarf]

It said that Rand did not think his fighting had been done with the blade? What's that mean to you' date=' Kung Fu?

J[/quote']

 

What it quite clearly says is that it is what Rand thought, not what actually happened. Rand didn't see any last fireball leaving Asmo's hand.

 

However weak or silly Asmo may have been, he was tough and wily enough to have survived the War of Power, and all of the DO's internal purges. He had a very highly honed sense of survival. He stood there with a sword in his hand, looking awkward, and let the others do the fighting, just as everyone would expect an effete musician to do.