one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Jedimuppet]

Not just me. Anybody putting forth a suspect has to supply such evidence.

 

Evidence not pure conjecture.

 

All you and the Graendal supporters have is conjecture. Nothing but conjecture for the Moiraine and Lanfear supporters' date=' either.

 

One place such evidence might come from is a POV. There has been no Forsaken POV that even hints at any involvement in Asmo's killing.

 

That doesn't "prove" anything, but it's a fair hint that there's nothing there to be revealed.[/quote']

 

Bob, that's why I think you're not listening. I'm not even putting Graendal forward right now, because I can't get past all of your "speculation". YOu sit there and speculate away, and expect us to accept it as fact. You sometimes use very hars terms about our intellectual capacity because we don't see the same "facts" you do.

 

There have to be some ground rules. I'm asking you to reconsider what you "know". Until then this debate is really circular and useles..

J

[Bob T Dwarf]

OK... point out where I'm speculating. I'm guessing you mean why I thing Jordan would do things differently. If so, yes, that is my speculation based on what seems a logical way to advance the story.

 

If you have a more logical reason for him to do things differently, please advance it.

[Jedimuppet]

OK... point out where I'm speculating. I'm guessing you mean why I thing Jordan would do things differently. If so' date=' yes, that is my speculation based on what seems a logical way to advance the story.

 

If you have a more logical reason for him to do things differently, please advance it.[/quote']

 

My point is first you should recognize that and quit putting us down for speculating, when you just admitted for the first time that you do it, too. You have to speculate in this situation. Let's let that horse die.

 

Secondly, you only allow certain forms. You decide what RJ would do, and use it as a constraining rule for your speculation. That's acceptable, but I at least don't agree with your starting principles, and I'm not going to rationalize on the same lines.

 

You have to accept that we are speculating along different lines instead of dismissing things out of hand because they violate your starting precepts.

 

Here's an example: I think Graendal did it. You say as one of your reasons that she couldn't have done it having supposedly set a meeting with Moggy. You have yet to convince me or even attempt to show me why the meeting and the murder are mutually exclusive from Graendal's point of view. Until you can do that, there's little reason for you to keep hitting me over the head with your meeting theory.

 

Do you see where I"m coming from now?

J

[Bob T Dwarf]

No, you're putting the cart before the horse.

 

You advance the theory that Graendal did it. Jordan tells us she was trying to meet Moggy during that same timeframe.

 

Therefore, you need to supply evidence not conjecture about how she could be in Caemlyn instead.

 

Nynaeve captured Moggy just before Rand's final confrontation with Rahvin. Since Graendal knows Moggy is missing, the meeting could not have been before that. Nynaeve and Moggy arrive in the T'A'R Caemlyn after Rand's battle with Rahvin is already underway. They both exit T'A'R as soon as the battle is over and Nynaeve has healed Rand as much as she's able. That establishes that the meeting either had to be scheduled for during that battle, or afterwards.

 

It is a short time afterwards when Asmo is killed.

 

So, where is your evidence that Graendal went to that meeting, found Moggy missing and decided to go looking around in Caemlyn before Asmo died? Or, even that she decided to stop by Caemlyn ( a place where it had been clearly established through Rahvin's POV in the Prologue that she was not welcome ) on the way to that meeting?

[Jonn_2]

It'd also be nice if you spent some time, Bob, on advancing your own theory.

As it stands, you just end up looking like a guy who thinks he can help put out birthday candles by p1ssing on the cake.

[Jedimuppet]

No' date=' you're putting the cart before the horse.

 

You advance the theory that Graendal did it. Jordan tells us she was trying to meet Moggy during that same timeframe.

 

Therefore, you need to supply evidence not conjecture about how she could be in Caemlyn instead.

 

Nynaeve captured Moggy just before Rand's final confrontation with Rahvin. Since Graendal knows Moggy is missing, the meeting could not have been before that. Nynaeve and Moggy arrive in the T'A'R Caemlyn after Rand's battle with Rahvin is already underway. They both exit T'A'R as soon as the battle is over and Nynaeve has healed Rand as much as she's able. That establishes that the meeting either had to be scheduled for during that battle, or afterwards.

 

It is a short time afterwards when Asmo is killed.

 

So, where is your evidence that Graendal went to that meeting, found Moggy missing and decided to go looking around in Caemlyn before Asmo died? Or, even that she decided to stop by Caemlyn ( a place where it had been clearly established through Rahvin's POV in the Prologue that she was not welcome ) on the way to that meeting?[/quote']

 

I dont' have any evidence about a meeting. All I "know" is that she said Moggy didn't show up. I have no idea how long she waited. I know she can Travel. What am I missing?

J

[Jedimuppet]

No' date=' you're putting the cart before the horse.

 

You advance the theory that Graendal did it. Jordan tells us she was trying to meet Moggy during that same timeframe.

 

Therefore, you need to supply evidence not conjecture about how she could be in Caemlyn instead.

 

Nynaeve captured Moggy just before Rand's final confrontation with Rahvin. Since Graendal knows Moggy is missing, the meeting could not have been before that. Nynaeve and Moggy arrive in the T'A'R Caemlyn after Rand's battle with Rahvin is already underway. They both exit T'A'R as soon as the battle is over and Nynaeve has healed Rand as much as she's able. That establishes that the meeting either had to be scheduled for during that battle, or afterwards.

 

It is a short time afterwards when Asmo is killed.

 

So, where is your evidence that Graendal went to that meeting, found Moggy missing and decided to go looking around in Caemlyn before Asmo died? Or, even that she decided to stop by Caemlyn ( a place where it had been clearly established through Rahvin's POV in the Prologue that she was not welcome ) on the way to that meeting?[/quote']

 

I dont' have any evidence about a meeting. All I "know" is that she said Moggy didn't show up. I have no idea how long she waited. I know she can Travel. What am I missing?

J

 

Also, now that I think about it, how do you know when the meeting was scheduled. I think all you know is that Moggy didn't show up. I don't think you know for sure that it's because she was captured. Don't they call her the spider for a reason?

J

[Bob T Dwarf]

I've done that twice already, Jonn. But, here goes again.

 

Bashere is the only unknown in this equation. He just arrived on the scene. His motivations and allegiances are entirely unknown. He had ten men as an honor guard who accompanied him into Caemlyn. He arrives in the Throne Room to speak with Rand carrying an unopened jar of wine and two silver goblets.

 

There is a break in the narrative. That usually indicates a dislocation in both time and space. Asmo goes looking for some wine opens a small random door, is aghast at who he sees, and dies.

 

Other than Rand, Enaila, Somara, Mat, and Aviendha, Bashere and possibly some of his honor guard are the only people Jordan has definitely placed in the palace at the time of the murder.

 

That makes one of those people the prime candidates to have been behind that door when Asmo started to walk in. Mat and Aviendha are the least likely because Asmo had just left them behind.

[Jedimuppet]

I've done that twice already' date=' Jonn. But, here goes again.

 

Bashere is the only unknown in this equation. He just arrived on the scene. His motivations and allegiances are entirely unknown. He had ten men as an honor guard who accompanied him into Caemlyn. He arrives in the Throne Room to speak with Rand carrying an unopened jar of wine and two silver goblets.

 

There is a break in the narrative. That usually indicates a dislocation in both time and space. Asmo goes looking for some wine opens a small random door, is aghast at who he sees, and dies.

 

Other than Rand, Enaila, Somara, Mat, and Aviendha, Bashere and possibly some of his honor guard are the only people Jordan has definitely placed in the palace at the time of the murder.

 

That makes one of those people the prime candidates to have been behind that door when Asmo started to walk in. Mat and Aviendha are the least likely because Asmo had just left them behind.[/quote']

 

The only problem with that is RJ specifically said we've been introduced to the killer.

J

[havoc110]

Great use of the Graendal/Moggy meeting as an alibi for Graendal.

 

Dude, there was no meeting. Therefore there can be no corroboration, or establishment of Graendal's location at any time.

 

She could have gone to the meeting place, stayed, and reported to Dem that Moggy didn't show. Or maybe she didn't. Maybe she knew Moggy was captive, and created an alibi for herself, not that an alibi has ever been needed in the story.

 

Was there ever a meeting?

Was Graendal ever there?

 

No way of knowing.

 

Can anybody speculate on what the nature of this alleged meeting may have been? It has been perplexing me of late. Moggy seems to be acting on her own thru most of the early part of the series. She is not part of either of the two major FS alliances. At first glance, it might be Graendal, looking for a new co-conspirator, since her alliance is now reeling from the end of TFoH.

[Bob T Dwarf]

We've just met Bashere in the Throne Room.

 

Now, I have to speculate.

 

When we leave Rand and Bashere talking in the Throne Room, there is a break in the narrative. Since it is still the same afternoon when Asmo decides to go looking for that wine, whatever displacement in time that break may indicate could not have been too long.

 

Was it long enough for Rand and Rachere to conclude their business and Bashere to return his goblet to the kitchen? I don't know. I can only speculate that it might have been. Thus it is possible that Bashere could have been making his way back outside when Asmo opened the door in his face.

 

How Bashere might have killed him is a pure guess. I'd say a dagger. Why is a guess, as well. My guess is that Bashere is Dark and acted to protect his secret status.

 

Therein lies the weakness of my case. Motive is conjecture. Means is conjecture. We also have no proof that Asmo and Bashere had ever met, and Asmo definitely recognizes his killer.

 

The only real strength of my case is that it is not conjecture to say Bashere had opportunity.

 

What happened to the body? More speculation. He carried it outside and burned it with the Trollocs.

[Jedimuppet]

We've just met Bashere in the Throne Room.

 

Now' date=' I have to speculate.

 

When we leave Rand and Bashere talking in the Throne Room, there is a break in the narrative. Since it is still the same afternoon when Asmo decides to go looking for that wine, whatever displacement in time that break may indicate could not have been too long.

 

Was it long enough for Rand and Rachere to conclude their business and Bashere to return his goblet to the kitchen? I don't know. I can only speculate that it might have been. Thus it is possible that Bashere could have been making his way back outside when Asmo opened the door in his face.

 

How Bashere might have killed him is a pure guess. I'd say a dagger. Why is a guess, as well. My guess is that Bashere is Dark and acted to protect his secret status.

 

Therein lies the weakness of my case. Motive is conjecture. Means is conjecture. We also have no proof that Asmo and Bashere had ever met, and Asmo definitely recognizes his killer.

 

The only real strength of my case is that it is not conjecture to say Bashere had opportunity.

 

What happened to the body? More speculation. He carried it outside and burned it with the Trollocs.[/quote']

 

It is a pretty weak case. Add to that, that Bashere would have to drag the body out in front of all the Aiel who knew Asmo, and I'm not sure it's worth it to him. Also, I'm not so sure that he really does have the opportunity, since I think he's around people after the battle.

 

Also, what's his motive again?

 

J

[havoc110]

Also, Bashere's own arrival indicates that ANYONE can walk into the palace.

 

Why is that? Because no-one's there, as Bob is wont to point out.

 

He just walks in on Rand in the Throne Room. Enaila and Somara didn't see fit to mention him, cause they didn't know he was there. They didn't say, no servants are here, but there's this guy with an armed escort is walking about. That's incomplete information. Before Bashere gets in front of the camera, nobody knows he's there.

 

So the front door is wide open, anybody off the street could be skulking about, including Taim, who Bashere says he has followed to Andor. Not to mention the FS. They skulk too.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Bashere is not "Dark" and anyone who has read Crossroads to Twilight should be able to accept that. His only motive for killing Asmodean at that point depends on his being one. Other than Bashere's mentioning the men he took with him to Rand, we have nothing before or after the incident to use as a basis for considering one of those 10 a suspect. Thus, intuitively, Bashere and his men are not involved.

 

In his PoV in the prologue to Crossroads of Twilight he is thinking about the "Foresaken". By this point in the series, we have an established ground rule that Darkfriends use "Chosen" and not "Foresaken" unless actually speaking out load to someone who is not a fellow Darkfriend.

 

I don't understand why so many people are unwilling to accept or even consider a supernatural/outside intervention solution. The murder cannot be explained using normal methods. When it comes down to it, outside meddling is the only thing that fits the evidence, I should say, lack of evidence. There are no viable suspects that can be pointed at using physical evidence as there is no physical evidence. Any kind of mundane killing would have left something. A body, blood stains, bloody hands, bloody clothes. Thus, the murder had to be committed with the Power. None of the Foresaken have any reason to hide the fact from the reader but they all have had situations where they logically would have to advance the story. Therefore, none of them has more information than we do which means they were not involved. Saying that RJ is just trying to "make us squirm" merely cheapens the story by incorporating a pointless and wornout gimmic that would ultimately alienate his reader base. He wants to write and sell other books, and doing so would be career suicide.

 

I thinks Egwene should have made the poll different. Not who do you currentlty think killed Asmodean, but what did your gut tell you at the moment he died. That is the important point, and Jordan's comments have only reinforced it to me.

[Bob T Dwarf]

What I see as the primary weakness for Taim is that he doesn't arrive until 18+ days later in the next book. When he does arrive, he's very travelworn and looks far older than he really is.

 

A Jordan answer to a QoTW ( emphasis added):

Rand misjudges Taim's age because when they meet, you might say Taim has been rode hard and put away wet. He has just finished a long and difficult flight to reach Caemlyn, the one place where he might find refuge instead of being hunted -- along with other reasons -- and that has a wearing effect on anyone. Now that he has recovered, he doesn't look so old.

 

So, you can see that he didn't get there in time to kill Asmo and then hideout for awhile before going to meet Rand.

[Jedimuppet]

Bashere is not "Dark" and anyone who has read Crossroads to Twilight should be able to accept that. His only motive for killing Asmodean at that point depends on his being one. Other than Bashere's mentioning the men he took with him to Rand' date=' we have nothing before or after the incident to use as a basis for considering one of those 10 a suspect. Thus, intuitively, Bashere and his men are not involved.

 

In his PoV in the prologue to [u']Crossroads of Twilight[/u] he is thinking about the "Foresaken". By this point in the series, we have an established ground rule that Darkfriends use "Chosen" and not "Foresaken" unless actually speaking out load to someone who is not a fellow Darkfriend.

 

I don't understand why so many people are unwilling to accept or even consider a supernatural/outside intervention solution. The murder cannot be explained using normal methods. When it comes down to it, outside meddling is the only thing that fits the evidence, I should say, lack of evidence. There are no viable suspects that can be pointed at using physical evidence as there is no physical evidence. Any kind of mundane killing would have left something. A body, blood stains, bloody hands, bloody clothes. Thus, the murder had to be committed with the Power. None of the Foresaken have any reason to hide the fact from the reader but they all have had situations where they logically would have to advance the story. Therefore, none of them has more information than we do which means they were not involved. Saying that RJ is just trying to "make us squirm" merely cheapens the story by incorporating a pointless and wornout gimmic that would ultimately alienate his reader base. He wants to write and sell other books, and doing so would be career suicide.

 

I thinks Egwene should have made the poll different. Not who do you currentlty think killed Asmodean, but what did your gut tell you at the moment he died. That is the important point, and Jordan's comments have only reinforced it to me.

 

Well the problem here is that it's a book, and we can't say that the reason we don't have evidence is because there is none. We just know we haven't been explicitly shown. So instead of going on evidence, we have to piece together all sorts of circumstantial pieces.

 

I admit it's kind of silly, but my only alternative is to sit here and get my work done, and I don't find that very attractive ;)

J

[Guest cwestervelt]

Bashere is not "Dark" and anyone who has read Crossroads to Twilight should be able to accept that. His only motive for killing Asmodean at that point depends on his being one. Other than Bashere's mentioning the men he took with him to Rand' date=' we have nothing before or after the incident to use as a basis for considering one of those 10 a suspect. Thus, intuitively, Bashere and his men are not involved.

 

In his PoV in the prologue to [u']Crossroads of Twilight[/u] he is thinking about the "Foresaken". By this point in the series, we have an established ground rule that Darkfriends use "Chosen" and not "Foresaken" unless actually speaking out load to someone who is not a fellow Darkfriend.

 

I don't understand why so many people are unwilling to accept or even consider a supernatural/outside intervention solution. The murder cannot be explained using normal methods. When it comes down to it, outside meddling is the only thing that fits the evidence, I should say, lack of evidence. There are no viable suspects that can be pointed at using physical evidence as there is no physical evidence. Any kind of mundane killing would have left something. A body, blood stains, bloody hands, bloody clothes. Thus, the murder had to be committed with the Power. None of the Foresaken have any reason to hide the fact from the reader but they all have had situations where they logically would have to advance the story. Therefore, none of them has more information than we do which means they were not involved. Saying that RJ is just trying to "make us squirm" merely cheapens the story by incorporating a pointless and wornout gimmic that would ultimately alienate his reader base. He wants to write and sell other books, and doing so would be career suicide.

 

I thinks Egwene should have made the poll different. Not who do you currentlty think killed Asmodean, but what did your gut tell you at the moment he died. That is the important point, and Jordan's comments have only reinforced it to me.

 

Well the problem here is that it's a book, and we can't say that the reason we don't have evidence is because there is none. We just know we haven't been explicitly shown. So instead of going on evidence, we have to piece together all sorts of circumstantial pieces.

 

I admit it's kind of silly, but my only alternative is to sit here and get my work done, and I don't find that very attractive ;)

J

 

You've got that problem too eh? :D

[Bob T Dwarf]

Bashere is not "Dark" and anyone who has read Crossroads to Twilight should be able to accept that. His only motive for killing Asmodean at that point depends on his being one.

 

The alternative hypothesis is that he's fanatically Light.

 

Neither him being Dark and thinking about Forsaken rather than Chosen' date=' nor him being fanatically Light, and killing any recognizable Forsaken on sight is anymore farfetched than supernatural or outside intervention.

 

Again we come back to the questions of what would the wish have been? Jordan tells us nothing, you have to make it up for yourself. Then the question of how the Eelfinn would interpret that wish such that Asmo winds up dying. Then the how of either Moiraine or Lanfear being returned to Finnland. Jordan tells us that the Eelfinn. [b']"cannot affect the outside world at all."[/b]

 

I just don't see any way it could be either of them.

[Bob T Dwarf]

C'mon guys, we've got to really think here.

 

Unless Jordan has outright lied to us, and I'm unwilling to think that, the clues are all in The Fires of Heaven.

 

That means no fanciful solutions. We just need to find the clues, follow the trail of breadcrumbs, and finally arrive at the killer.

 

But, in order to do that we have to give up our preconceptions, and just stick with where the text leads. And, those breadcrumbs might not lead us to anybody glamorous, sexy, or cool.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Bashere is not "Dark" and anyone who has read Crossroads to Twilight should be able to accept that. His only motive for killing Asmodean at that point depends on his being one.

 

The alternative hypothesis is that he's fanatically Light.

 

Neither him being Dark and thinking about Forsaken rather than Chosen' date=' nor him being fanatically Light, and killing any recognizable Forsaken on sight is anymore farfetched than supernatural or outside intervention.

 

Again we come back to the questions of what would the wish have been? Jordan tells us nothing, you have to make it up for yourself. Then the question of how the Eelfinn would interpret that wish such that Asmo winds up dying. Then the how of either Moiraine or Lanfear being returned to Finnland. Jordan tells us that the Eelfinn. [b']"cannot affect the outside world at all."[/b]

 

I just don't see any way it could be either of them.

 

Mat wasn't just found lying outside the door. He was, by all appearance, deliberately hung from Avendesora. Therefore, they can affect things in the outside, at least as far as it directly relates to there dealings with the subject. RJ's statement is either a slip, or generally misinterpretted, neither of which would be impossible or unprecedented.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Mat hanging from Avendesora proves that the Finns can walk through the gateway, hang somebody from a tree and walk back into that doorway again. It doesn't prove they magically transported him there.

 

The fact is we don't know how he got there. Jordan tells us nothing between Mat losing conciousness and Rand discovering him hanging from the Tree. Given that, physically carrying him there and hanging him up is the simplest and easiest method.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Look, guys, the good news that fader gave us in his P 5 post is that 2 people did both figure out who the killer is, and find the evidence to support their deduction.

 

That means the evidence is there... in the text. All we have to do is find it too.

[Guest Majsju]

Possibly an important distinction, Mat was hung from the Ashandarei, which was then placed over some branches, he was not hung directly from a branch.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Here ( aside from fader's post ) is why I don't think it could be any of the Forsaken ( a direct quote from Jordan again - emphasis added again ):

Now as to Rahvin sitting on his throne and being shocked to see Rand. First off, he knew his first trap hadn't worked, but he had others ready. He saw no reason to start jumping about. He thought he was maneuvering Rand into a series of traps, one of which he was sure would work. He did not expect Rand to simply leap into the same room with him. He did not expect Rand to know that he could Travel to somewhere in sight of himself without knowing the ground. So what he had expected to be a chess game where he knew the positions of all the pieces and Rand did not suddenly turned into a close-quarters slugging match. Surprise!

 

That's why I don't buy the "all Traps had been sprung", theory. there were plenty of Traps still in place. Any Forsaken gating in might have sprung any of those traps. Further, Rahvin had made clear in the Prologue to tFoH that none of them were welcome in Caemlyn. They would all expect a nasty welcome the next time they chose to visit.

[Guest Majsju]

Here ( aside from fader's post ) is why I don't think it could be any of the Forsaken ( a direct quote from Jordan again - emphasis added again ):

Now as to Rahvin sitting on his throne and being shocked to see Rand. First off' date=' he knew his first trap hadn't worked, [u']but he had others ready.[/u] He saw no reason to start jumping about. He thought he was maneuvering Rand into a series of traps, one of which he was sure would work. He did not expect Rand to simply leap into the same room with him. He did not expect Rand to know that he could Travel to somewhere in sight of himself without knowing the ground. So what he had expected to be a chess game where he knew the positions of all the pieces and Rand did not suddenly turned into a close-quarters slugging match. Surprise!

 

That's why I don't buy the "all Traps had been sprung", theory. there were plenty of Traps still in place. Any Forsaken gating in might have sprung any of those traps. Further, Rahvin had made clear in the Prologue to tFoH that none of them were welcome in Caemlyn. They would all expect a nasty welcome the next time they chose to visit.

 

And yet, both Rand and several others, both men and women have been happily channeling all around the place without anyone springing any traps after Rahvin's death.