one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[havoc110]

Thanks, Fader, for clarifying you post. Hopefully now we can move on from there.

 

And about the Avi theories: How can Avi's either running after Asmo (to get on the other side of the door) or her making a Gateway (if she even has that skill) go unnoticed by Mat?

 

Fictional Mat testimony: The last time I saw Asmo, Avi and I were in the courtyard by the fountain. Amso (Natael, whatever) left, and Avi left right on his heels. That was the last time I saw Asmo.

[Jonn_2]

Cw' date=' excluding suspects because they don't mention it in their POV's is really stretching it. It works in one case, Slayer, because of the special circumstances. But people don't constantly walk around thinking about everything they've ever done. Especially not when the man writing the POV's is the same man who gets a good laugh from watching us squirm about this.[/quote']

 

I do not agree with this refutation at all.

 

We are dealing with a narrative in which information can, and often does, come to the audience through POV. It happens all of the time. Rand is a prime example of this concept. How else would we know something like Shadowspawn not being able to pass through Gateways? As improbable as it is given the circumstances, Rand reveals details and mysteries of the past through his POV because of the otherwise outrageous case of him being able to communicate with Lews Therin. POV is a huge factor when it comes to revelation and new information in this particular narrative.

So why should we discard the fact that Graendal fails to address a supposed action she took in her POV? If she has a reason for not disclosing her actions, why not present the reason and the guilt? If there is no reason, then there is no guilt.

 

Another example: Cyndane. She has a brief POV in Winter's Heart and we are immediately able to conceive who she really is and what might have happened to her because she passed through the Doorway as Lanfear. Mysteries solved. The details...they all of a sudden become secondary. We were given enough information to continue on with the narrative.

 

If we are examining the plot and information given in the storytelling, there is no way to separate the very elements of narration from the concept of evidence in this particular problem. Hence, we cannot, MUST not turn away from the importance of Graendal's POV or lack thereof, when it comes to addressing this mystery.

[Guest Majsju]

Cw' date=' excluding suspects because they don't mention it in their POV's is really stretching it. It works in one case, Slayer, because of the special circumstances. But people don't constantly walk around thinking about everything they've ever done. Especially not when the man writing the POV's is the same man who gets a good laugh from watching us squirm about this.[/quote']

 

I do not agree with this refutation at all.

 

We are dealing with a narrative in which information can, and often does, come to the audience through POV. It happens all of the time. Rand is a prime example of this concept. How else would we know something like Shadowspawn not being able to pass through Gateways? As improbable as it is given the circumstances, Rand reveals details and mysteries of the past through his POV because of the otherwise outrageous case of him being able to communicate with Lews Therin. POV is a huge factor when it comes to revelation and new information in this particular narrative.

So why should we discard the fact that Graendal fails to address a supposed action she took in her POV? If she has a reason for not disclosing her actions, why not present the reason and the guilt? If there is no reason, then there is no guilt.

 

Another example: Cyndane. She has a brief POV in Winter's Heart and we are immediately able to conceive who she really is and what might have happened to her because she passed through the Doorway as Lanfear. Mysteries solved. The details...they all of a sudden become secondary. We were given enough information to continue on with the narrative.

 

If we are examining the plot and information given in the storytelling, there is no way to separate the very elements of narration from the concept of evidence in this particular problem. Hence, we cannot, MUST not turn away from the importance of Graendal's POV or lack thereof, when it comes to addressing this mystery.

 

Yes, when RJ Wants to provide us with certain information, he puts it into characters POVs. However,it should be obvious by now that he doesn't want to give away the answer, but prefers that we try to figure it out by ourselves.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Yes RJ does want us to figure it out. That is why, lack of information in Graendal's PoV at that point is important. Without clues, we can't figure it out. Failure to provide a clue at a logical point is a clue in and of itself. Graendal fails to provide information concerning Asmodean's death at a point where it would be perfectly in character to do so. If she had information, and didn't reveal it at that point, it would be out of character. You can't have an out of character PoV as that is a contradiction in and of itself. This implies that she has already stated everything she knows. Which is precisely nothing more that Asmodean isdead.

[Graendals favourite]

I think there was quite a while, after mentions of Asmodean, of other discussion. Reading the povs, it seems to Graendal is quite intent in trying to manipulate Sammael in regards of present events, so I'd think it natural her monologue presents her views on whether or not the manipulation is working or not. I don't think Asmodead should be important enough to her that she should dwell on him, as she has more pressing matters such as getting Sammael to do as she wants.

[Jonn_2]

[

 

Yes' date= when RJ Wants to provide us with certain information, he puts it into characters POVs. However,it should be obvious by now that he doesn't want to give away the answer, but prefers that we try to figure it out by ourselves.[/quote]

 

I'm sorry to say this, but that makes no sense. It's like saying that a scientist likes to follow the formulas that help him conduct experiments, but for one experiment, he just didn't feel like using the formulas. Now we have to accept his the incomplete results because of a whim.

 

At the risk of sounding overly emotional about it; That's plain silly.

 

If you are referring to that quote about him liking to watch us squirm. That was a rather p1ss poor attempt at obscuring the true nature of this mystery. What would that be? The nature of this mystery is that the details are not being revealed, for a reason. This reason is germane to the devlopment of the plot...otherwise it's really a waste of time and it would only serve to add fuel to criticisms that Jordan's writing often stalls and bogs down.

 

Again, the emotional part of me will not let me believe this. Rationally though, my experiance with RJ's narrative is that every detail is stated for a reason, be it simply atmospheric or pertinent to the plot. The other side of it is that every detail that is left out is for a reason as well. In this case, leaving out Graendal's exposure of her guilt in the killing of Asmodean serves no purpose. For every argument that she needs to be deceptive and the like, there is another argument that says in her POV, it makes no sense to not mention her intentions if she is in fact concealing her action. If the latter is the case, it has not payed dividends that we as the audience have seen, and that kind of stalling just brings the the Graendal narrative and the events surround her character development to a dead stop. If we are to believe what some here would suggest...it's simply because the author likes to watch us squirm. I'll counter by again saying that this concept is not only ludicrous, but extremely dismissive of the audience to the point of it being openly insulting.

On an emotional level, I just don't read Jordan like that as an author or a person. The reasoning just doesn't fit.

[havoc110]

I don't think this is getting anywhere.

 

There are a lot of POV's we don't have that would be useful: Nothing of Taim, nothing of any Aes Sedai (or non AS for that matter) that we could use to identify that character as Mesaana, the same for Demandred.

 

They are not there because that information IS MEANT TO BE HIDDEN. There is no mystery if someone in a POV says "killing Asmo was fun, I can't believe noone has figured out I did it." There's nothing to figure out if it is all put in front of you.

 

And, unless the killer happens to be Moiraine (which to me is like 90/10 against) or Taim (at least more likely a suspect than Moiraine) then what we have is a killer on the loose who we have had POV's for, without revealing their guilt.

[Jonn_2]

I don't think this is getting anywhere.

 

There are a lot of POV's we don't have that would be useful: Nothing of Taim' date=' nothing of any Aes Sedai (or non AS for that matter) that we could use to identify that character as Mesaana, the same for Demandred.

 

They are not there because that information IS MEANT TO BE HIDDEN. There is no mystery if someone in a POV says "killing Asmo was fun, I can't believe noone has figured out I did it." There's nothing to figure out if it is all put in front of you.

 

And, unless the killer happens to be Moiraine (which to me is like 90/10 against) or Taim (at least more likely a suspect than Moiraine) then what we have is a killer on the loose who we have had POV's for, without revealing their guilt.[/quote']

 

That's actually the point. Not revealing the killer serves no purpose unless there is something else, plotwise, connected to the revelation.

 

It just doesn't make sense to have Graendal running around as a secret executioner when there appears to be nothing that needs to be hidden behind the fact.

 

With Moiraine the reason behind it being a secret is rather plain. She has to be rescued in order for many things to be explained. Why not one of the most prevailing mysteries ever put in print?

 

Now, how does this fill in the gap that it should be obvious at the point of the murder. It was actually my first guess when I read the passage for the first time. Asmodean was thinking about Lanfear, who had recently just gone through a melting doorway with...Moiraine. Imagine his surprise at opening the door to see a dead woman come out of nowhere and her hand raises up to erase him.

 

If Moiraine, why not Lanfear? Her POV revealed that she was held for a time and that she had lost her body in the process. Would Asmodean recognize her? What kind of gesture from an unrecognized woman would make him believe that he was in danger?

 

Moiraine has the history of killing Forsaken who get close to Rand. She has the motive. And there is justifiable reason to obscure the means as it involves her deal with the Finns, her journey to Rhuidean and a plotline that is unresolved. Also, emotionally, readers are tied up with her character and are hesitant to see her actually die, so a twist like her actually being alive would not be unexpected. We also remember the times when Thom "died". (Ironically, he is tied up in rescuing Moiraine who was also thought to be dead.) We also had just had a scene with Mat and Aviendha and of course Asmodean who were all "dead" but ressurected by balefire. Asmodean, moments before he is killed again recalls his momentary death by lightning. Foreshadowing people...foreshadowing. Death and ressurection, only to be dead again at the hands at someone who should be dead. It simply works.

[Graendals favourite]

Yea, RJ is free to have the people who have povs think what he wants. We cannot know for example Graendal should have thought about Asmodean then, when we don't know what she thinks about him in general. She might have been induced to reflect on Asmodean, or might have not. Just as likely she has thought of him by that time so many times, that she has no need to think more on it. I can't see killing Asmodean would nag at any Forsaken's conscience, especially when they consider the murder right and just.

 

 

For some reason this issue keeps reminding me of a joke by RJ I perceived when last I read PoD. The logic of the relevance evades me, but I'll mention it to put my mind to rest :) .

 

On the way to the Kin Farm, I remember Elayne thinking about how Nynaeve thinks much about clothes nowadays. There's also surely by PoD been the observation of how RJ describes clothing to a good degree, often. Well, when first the Kin farm comes to sight, Elayne thinks: "The first appearance of the horses coming around the leaning hill produced far less stir than she expected. A number of the women stopped to watch, but no more than that. Their clothing varied widely-- Elayne even saw a sheen of silk here and there--" giving the impression that RJ is now hurrying to describe all the different women's dresses, but then he goes in a different direction and talks about other things.

 

I suppose the point is that people don't necessarily think what you might expect them to think.

[havoc110]

Re: Jonn_2's Moiraine theory:

Doesn't work for me, but that's just me.

 

Especially since you do have a Moiraine POV, of a sort, in the letter to Rand.

 

To me, the letter, and the way she discusses Natael, eliminates her as a suspect.

 

She has some foretelling. She would not take Lanfear into the red doorway without first dealing with Asmo if she felt that Asmo needed to be dealt with. It is inference from her words, but it is there, plain as day. "I do not know what happens in the world after, except for one small thing..." which is what she writes in the letter to Thom concerning her future rescue.

[Guest cwestervelt]

The letter was pre-killing and pre-Finn so it is not a PoV that can be used to disqualify events. Once the Finn's became involved, any intent she may have initially had when writing it no longer applied. If she wished to eliminate a threat to the Dragon Reborn while in Finnland, and she suddenly found herself facing Asmodean, her statements concerning Asmodean just went out the window. A failure to act would result in wasting one of her "wishes" and Moiraine wouldn't do that.

[havoc110]

The letter was pre-killing and pre-Finn so it is not a PoV that can be used to disqualify events. Once the Finn's became involved' date=' any intent she may have initially had when writing it no longer applied. If she wished to eliminate a threat to the Dragon Reborn while in Finnland, and she suddenly found herself facing Asmodean, her statements concerning Asmodean just went out the window. A failure to act would result in wasting one of her "wishes" and Moiraine wouldn't do that.[/quote']

 

C'mon. Really? Using your "failure to act test", why would Moiraine go thru the doorway before killing Asmo? You and Jonn_2 have stated that killing Forsaken is her MO. I (and most if not all others here) agree with that completely. Then why wait?

 

The Finns gave her some type of Knowledge? That Asmo was the greatest threat to Rand? Asmo wasn't even the greatest threat to the wine pantry at the time... Did Moiraine somehow ask "show me the 950th greatest danger to the Dragon Reborn and allow me to eliminate it?"

 

Also, typically the foreknowledge mechanic is not disqualified because "something happens". That is specifically my limited knowledge of how that goes down in literature, somebody chime in if I am incorrect.

[Graendals favourite]

According to Asmo's own thoughts before the murder he wasn't a threat to Rand. He was intent on clinging to his last chance at life, trying to see Rand win, desperate as that was in his mind.

[Jonn_2]

Yea' date=' RJ is free to have the people who have povs think what he wants. We cannot know for example Graendal should have thought about Asmodean then, when we don't know what she thinks about him in general. She might have been induced to reflect on Asmodean, or might have not. Just as likely she has thought of him by that time so many times, that she has no need to think more on it. I can't see killing Asmodean would nag at any Forsaken's conscience, especially when they consider the murder right and just.

 

 

For some reason this issue keeps reminding me of a joke by RJ I perceived when last I read PoD. The logic of the relevance evades me, but I'll mention it to put my mind to rest :) .

 

On the way to the Kin Farm, I remember Elayne thinking about how Nynaeve thinks much about clothes nowadays. There's also surely by PoD been the observation of how RJ describes clothing to a good degree, often. Well, when first the Kin farm comes to sight, Elayne thinks: "The first appearance of the horses coming around the leaning hill produced far less stir than she expected. A number of the women stopped to watch, but no more than that. Their clothing varied widely-- Elayne even saw a sheen of silk here and there--" giving the impression that RJ is now hurrying to describe all the different women's dresses, but then he goes in a different direction and talks about other things.

 

I suppose the point is that people don't necessarily think what you might expect them to think.[/quote']

 

 

I can't seem to remember a more misleading statement regarding this topic...Ostensibly, you aren't really making an applicable point here. I hate to sound pompous about it and I don't mean this personally, but really, statements like this are beginning to just seem like stalling.

Now, I respect what you're going for here. You're looking to douse the whole POV issue. I am compelled to insist that you cannot disregard this facet of the narrative as evidence. The bulk of what we know of the mystery comes from Asmodean's POV. Logically, the killer's POV would be the ultimate proof. There is no side-stepping this. Without this proof, this defining piece of the puzzle, there is no conclusion and cannot be one, short of RJ outright telling us.

[Guest cwestervelt]

The letter was pre-killing and pre-Finn so it is not a PoV that can be used to disqualify events. Once the Finn's became involved' date=' any intent she may have initially had when writing it no longer applied. If she wished to eliminate a threat to the Dragon Reborn while in Finnland, and she suddenly found herself facing Asmodean, her statements concerning Asmodean just went out the window. A failure to act would result in wasting one of her "wishes" and Moiraine wouldn't do that.[/quote']

 

C'mon. Really? Using your "failure to act test", why would Moiraine go thru the doorway before killing Asmo? You and Jonn_2 have stated that killing Forsaken is her MO. I (and most if not all others here) agree with that completely. Then why wait?

 

The Finns gave her some type of Knowledge? That Asmo was the greatest threat to Rand? Asmo wasn't even the greatest threat to the wine pantry at the time... Did Moiraine somehow ask "show me the 950th greatest danger to the Dragon Reborn and allow me to eliminate it?"

 

Also, typically the foreknowledge mechanic is not disqualified because "something happens". That is specifically my limited knowledge of how that goes down in literature, somebody chime in if I am incorrect.

 

Yes, killing Foresaken is her MO. Normally. In the letter, which was written before the Doorway, she implies knowledge of who Asmodean is. She didn't act because she understood that maybe it was necessary. So Asmodean had a qualifier that kept her from acting.

 

Now, she goes through the doorway. She says she wants to "protect the Dragon Reborn", "kill a Foresaken", whatever. We know that in her mind, Asmodean is still a Foresaken. The Finn's do the interpretation of the wish and decide how to grant it. Say it is a "close threat the Dragon Reborn" that she wanted. Knowing what we do of Moiraine, she isn't one to hesitate from doing what she must. If she suddenly was confronting Asmodean, she would have acted. Now, assuming elimination of a threat was the wish, why would Asmodean be a threat in the eyes of the Finn's? For one, he was no longer protected from the Taint. A mad Foresaken would be a danger to anyone. Or, what happens if the general populace learns who Asmodean is? They'd see Rand as having sheltered one of the most evil people in history. Asmodean's name was one of 13 used to scare children into behaving for 3000+ years. It still scared adults after all that time. The people would turn on Rand so fast that he would be lucky if Elaida got to him first. Any hope of 99.9% of all Aes Sedai lending him aid would be gone.

[Jonn_2]

According to Asmo's own thoughts before the murder he wasn't a threat to Rand. He was intent on clinging to his last chance at life' date=' trying to see Rand win, desperate as that was in his mind.[/quote']

 

There are other ways to be a threat to someone besides trying to kill them.

There are a number of factors to take into account when it comes to Jasin Natael being advisor to The Dragon Reborn. Moiraine apparently figured out who Jasin really was, and if she can figure it out, it's certain someone else could figure it out. If the truth came out that Rand was being advised by one of the Forsaken, the damage that knowledge could do could have been as good as a deathblow.

[Graendals favourite]

I can't seem to remember a more misleading statement regarding this topic...Ostensibly' date=' you aren't really making an applicable point here. I hate to sound pompous about it and I don't mean this personally, but really, statements like this are beginning to just seem like stalling.

Now, I respect what you're going for here. You're looking to douse the whole POV issue. I am compelled to insist that you cannot disregard this facet of the narrative as evidence. The bulk of what we know of the mystery comes from Asmodean's POV. Logically, the killer's POV would be the ultimate proof. There is no side-stepping this. Without this proof, this defining piece of the puzzle, there is no conclusion and cannot be one, short of RJ outright telling us.[/quote']

 

Mmm, sorry, that latter was an attempt at humour, not really anything else. Still, the first paragraph I felt was applicable. I take it then, that you mean that for a logical narrative, the killer given a pov should admit the deed to herself, when Asmodean has been discussed not that long before the pov? If so, I'm not gonna post my thoughts right away, but think on it a while.

[Graendals favourite]

According to Asmo's own thoughts before the murder he wasn't a threat to Rand. He was intent on clinging to his last chance at life' date=' trying to see Rand win, desperate as that was in his mind.[/quote']

 

There are other ways to be a threat to someone besides trying to kill them.

There are a number of factors to take into account when it comes to Jasin Natael being advisor to The Dragon Reborn. Moiraine apparently figured out who Jasin really was, and if she can figure it out, it's certain someone else could figure it out. If the truth came out that Rand was being advised by one of the Forsaken, the damage that knowledge could do could have been as good as a deathblow.

 

Surely the other forsaken are greater threats to him. Thinking of Mesaana and Elaida. And Dashiva, later. There are always rumours about any number of attrocities performed by Rand.

[Guest cwestervelt]

For one, the two PoV's follow immediately after eachother, not just in the story, but chronologically. Graendal is giving herself a pat on the back for a successful manipulation of Sammael. As part of that manipulation, she tried to use Asmodean's and Lanfear's deaths as part of the "Rand al'Thor is more powerful than you" angle. As such, yes, it would make perfect sense for her to have clarified the issue. It is a situation synonymous with Sammael complaining about Lanfear sending Trollocs to the Stone of Tear and Graendal mentally speculating on how that had been her. She sees this type of misdirection as a success, so she would gloat.

[Guest cwestervelt]

According to Asmo's own thoughts before the murder he wasn't a threat to Rand. He was intent on clinging to his last chance at life' date=' trying to see Rand win, desperate as that was in his mind.[/quote']

 

There are other ways to be a threat to someone besides trying to kill them.

There are a number of factors to take into account when it comes to Jasin Natael being advisor to The Dragon Reborn. Moiraine apparently figured out who Jasin really was, and if she can figure it out, it's certain someone else could figure it out. If the truth came out that Rand was being advised by one of the Forsaken, the damage that knowledge could do could have been as good as a deathblow.

 

Surely the other forsaken are greater threats to him. Thinking of Mesaana and Elaida. And Dashiva, later. There are always rumours about any number of attrocities performed by Rand.

 

Who says the Finn's see it that way. The greatest threat can be seen as the one that is physically closest. And damage control for something like harbouring a Foresaken would be near impossible.

[havoc110]

Or' date=' what happens if the general populace learns who Asmodean is? They'd see Rand as having sheltered one of the most evil people in history. Asmodean's name was one of 13 used to scare children into behaving for 3000+ years. It still scared adults after all that time. The people would turn on Rand so fast that he would be lucky if Elaida got to him first. Any hope of 99.9% of all Aes Sedai lending him aid would be gone.[/quote']

 

There are other ways to be a threat to someone besides trying to kill them.

There are a number of factors to take into account when it comes to Jasin Natael being advisor to The Dragon Reborn. Moiraine apparently figured out who Jasin really was' date=' and if she can figure it out, it's certain someone else could figure it out. If the truth came out that Rand was being advised by one of the Forsaken, the damage that knowledge could do could have been as good as a deathblow.[/quote']

 

Let me get this straight, the murderer is coming back from captivity in Finnland. And the motive for Asmo's death is that it is a good PR move for Light?

 

To the best of my knowledge, Randland doesn't even have anything equivalent to concept of media. Randland would revolt? No Dragon at TG is better than one who has a Forsaken for an advisor? Those that don't dismiss it all as wives' tales to begin with? Those that don't wet themseleves at the concept of the end of the world approaching?

 

Furthermore, Mat has been through both sides of the doorway. Using that as the only example we have (and I do admit it is a limited sampling), Mat doesn't "bounce" back into Randland, act upon one of his wishes, and "bounce" back to Finnland. He states: I want this, this, and this. They say, done, done, and done...The price will be paid, yadda, yadda, yadda."

[Graendals favourite]

For one' date=' the two PoV's follow immediately after eachother, not just in the story, but chronologically. Graendal is giving herself a pat on the back for a successful manipulation of Sammael. As part of that manipulation, she tried to use Asmodean's and Lanfear's deaths as part of the "Rand al'Thor is more powerful than you" angle. As such, yes, it would make perfect sense for her to have clarified the issue. It is a situation synonymous with Sammael complaining about Lanfear sending Trollocs to the Stone of Tear and Graendal mentally speculating on how that had been her. She sees this type of misdirection as a success, so she would gloat.[/quote']

 

I see it differently. I see that Sammael wasn't convinced Lanfear was dead, so he was influenced by what he thought he was still facing. Or alternatively, he wanted to threaten Graendal on what she would face if she did that to him.

 

Here, in Graendal's pov, I'd say Asmo was past, not much different than all the other hurdles, like Lanfear, Rahvin etc what she was telling him. A part of the picture, but no greater than any other. So she lied about him without qualms as she would lie about almost anything, so used to it she doesn't need the mental justifications. In her monologue she was thinking about the future, and Sammael's fate.

[Jonn_2]

 

Let me get this straight' date=' the murderer is coming back from captivity in Finnland. And the motive for Asmo's death is that it is a good PR move for Light?

 

To the best of my knowledge, Randland doesn't even have anything equivalent to concept of media. Randland would revolt? No Dragon at TG is better than one who has a Forsaken for an advisor? Those that don't dismiss it all as wives' tales to begin with? Those that don't wet themseleves at the concept of the end of the world approaching?

 

Furthermore, Mat has been through both sides of the doorway. Using that as the only example we have (and I do admit it is a limited sampling), Mat doesn't "bounce" back into Randland, act upon one of his wishes, and "bounce" back to Finnland. He states: I want this, this, and this. They say, done, done, and done...The price will be paid, yadda, yadda, yadda."[/quote']

 

You have a talent for over-simplifying things in such a way that it's mildly annoying. You have a valid concern though in pondering how one can enter and leave Finnworld. You did use Mat as an example. Mat did ask to leave, and as a price they hung him from a limb. What we know about bargaining with the Finns is rather limited. We do know that they have vast, but strange powers and even stranger applications of arrangements or how they feel they have completed an agreement.

 

Mat was given the memories of a hundred generals and a weapons that stop the power and he paid a severe price. Is it that far-fetched that Moiraine received a pass to dispatch Asmodean, but the price to be paid was to remain a captive?

[Guest cwestervelt]

Let me get this straight' date=' the murderer is coming back from captivity in Finnland. And the motive for Asmo's death is that it is a good PR move for Light?

 

To the best of my knowledge, Randland doesn't even have anything equivalent to concept of media. Randland would revolt? No Dragon at TG is better than one who has a Forsaken for an advisor? Those that don't dismiss it all as wives' tales to begin with? Those that don't wet themseleves at the concept of the end of the world approaching?

 

Furthermore, Mat has been through both sides of the doorway. Using that as the only example we have (and I do admit it is a limited sampling), Mat doesn't "bounce" back into Randland, act upon one of his wishes, and "bounce" back to Finnland. He states: I want this, this, and this. They say, done, done, and done...The price will be paid, yadda, yadda, yadda."[/quote']

 

We don't see any non-darkfriends that would like to see Rand dead? Most of Randland doesn't care about the Last Battle. So yes, in their eyes, not having the Dragon Reborn is better than having him. I can't cite a passage off hand, but I recall indications that many of the average people think there won't be a last battle if there is no Dragon Reborn. Rand is more likely to be attacked by people who are supposed to be on his side than he is by a Darkfriend.

 

Just because Mat made his requests one right after the other with no pause doesn't meen Moiraine would have. After all, Mat is impulsive, Moiraine is methodical. Mat's requests didn't require going to and from, we don't know about Moiraine's. Mat had no idea what he was going, Moiraine quite possible did. Mat's and Moiraine's experiences do not compare well as the two characters and there situations are so different.

 

Considering that Moiraine is still there, and alive, I'm guessing that she has never made her third wish, knowing what will happen to her if she does. Her business isn't finished yet and that is why she needs to be rescued.

[havoc110]

 

You have a talent for over-simplifying things in such a way that it's mildly annoying.

 

I love a good back-handed compliment. (no sarcasm, honest) Hopefully nothing I say will be taken personally. I want to be serious but not overly serious, to keep it fun, as it were.

 

I found it funny/strange/compelling that both you and CW have the same point (at almost the same time) about the public relations mess that Asmo presents. I started thinking about "White Tower Press Secretaries" and the like.

 

Clearly, I am not going to convince either of you that Moiraine is not the killer. I myself, am only reasonably sure that it is not Moiraine, for reasons I have stated.

 

I think progress is being made, however. For our part, we are taking a closer look at the actual evidence. Moiraine's letters, POV's of people who have been to Finnland before, etc.