Callandor (sp?) and theory

[skalors3]

I am sure this issue has been beat to death, but it is fresh in my mind. While re-reading the series, I noticed something in WH that caught my attention. Actually, it refers back to something Cadsuane said to Rand in PoD.

 

For Callandor to work correctly, you need two Aes Sedai to control the weaves. Granted, the prophecy says the person to follow Rand is important to wielding Callandor. That person is obviously, to us at least, Narishma (Sp?).

 

What if that isn't the truth though? First off, can Narishma really be considered the one to follow Rand if he was told how to pull it and whom he was supposed to pull it for? Rand seemed unconcerened about that bit of prophecy though he was well aware of it. Most of the time a lack of explanation in RJ's world usually tends to be a red herring. I think he is leading us to believe something other than the truth.

 

I think before I explain my theory, I need to outline some facts first. Narishma collected Callandor near the end of PoD. He had explained to Rand that he had not explained all of the wards to him. Rand was under the impression that he had. The issue was then dropped and has not been mentioned since.

 

We lose track of Logain for almost 2 books. It is obvious from the beginning of WH that he has been at the black tower for a considerable amount of time. He bonds 2 Aes Sedai to him.

 

Here is my theory. Logain pulled the sword and replaced it before Narishma brought it to Rand. I believe Cadsuane knew this. If my memory serves me correctly (which it may not) Cadsuane came from Tear to Cairheren. I believe she waited for Logain, told him he needed two Aes Sedai and then travelled to Rand. She may have been waiting for Rand at Tear and found Logain instead.

 

The point I am trying to make is this: Logain bonded two women because he knew he needed them to control Callandor. He pulled it right from under our noses. RJ doesn't leave people out of books unless there is a reason. I would think Logain coming to the tower would be important enough to inform Rand of. By omitting him, RJ has made us forget about him.

 

Discuss please!

[Guest Majsju]

And just how would Logain have been able to take the sword without setting off any of all the wards Rand had set around it?

[TheDiceAgain...]

Umm, not trying to be offensive, but that is some really wild speculation with very little in the way of back up. I find it much more likely that Rand simply forgot or purposely neglected to tell Narishma about some of the traps. He has been under a lot of pressure and is "going slightly mad" (to quote one of my favorite rock bands).

 

The fact that Logain happened to run into two of the Tower Aes Sedai is simply a product of happenstance and a desire to have control over them. Had he run into 3 or 4, I imagine he would have bound them too.

[skalors3]

The speculation may be wild, but it is not very far fetched. If Narishma could have gotten through wards without prior knowledge, I am sure that Logain could as well.

 

We all know that Logain desires to crush the white tower. What better power than Callandor? The point remains that RJ gave us a lot of information regarding something very important to the story line. I do not think that he would have given away something as important as that prophecy with such apparent disregard for plot lines. He hasn't done it before and I don't think he did it this time. Narishma is to convenient of a plot drop to be real. Jordan eludes to the fact that someone has been there since Rand. Logain is destined for greatness.

 

He said in an interview that the facts are there concerning all of our questions if we take the time to look for the answers. In almost every book the smallest details have been the most important. Most of the times it has taken several books for those small facts to be revealed as important. I really think that this is more plausible than you may think.

[Kadere]

I'm not sure I understand the point of this theory. Is it because Logain is such a popular character that he MUST be the one to follow after Rand? Because it seems to me that in WH, CoT, and KoD Narishma becomes a pretty key Asha'man and the thought of him following after Rand really doesn't surprise me.

 

I mean sure Logain as the viewing of great glory to come, and stepping over "Rand's" body, but that doesn't signify that he will "follow after" Rand.

 

And then the biggest problem I have with this theory is what did he do with Callendor? You say he took it, bonded two Aes Sedai (which he didn't even do until after Narishma gave Rand the sword), and then returned it? What good is that? If he'd taken it, why not use it on Taim or the WT, or Rand for that matter?

 

The time line, motive, and effect of this theory are all lacking.

[skalors3]

I don't see how the timeline, motive or effect of this theory is lacking. The timeline fits perfectly. Logain goes to the black tower, Logain learns to travel, Logain goes to Tear. He could have simply went to Tear to recruit new recruits. I think the point is is that he could have easily went.

 

The motive is simple as well. It gives him a means to his ends. I think he is justifiably angry with the tower. In his present state he does not have enough power to do anything. He wants what every AS and Forsaken wants: an Angreal or Sa'Angreal. It doesn't break down easier than that.

 

The effect his a moot point. The effect could be anything. The point is is that his effect would not differ from Narishma's effect. He would be wielding Callandor at the final battle.

 

On to your other points.

 

I am not implying that his stepping over Rand signifies anything. I have theories on that though which have come from various sources. His coming after Rand would simply be a fulfillment of prophecy in regards to drawing Callandor. It is either him or Narishma. I just don't think that Narishma pulled the sword first.

 

Why could he have not drawn Callandor, channeled into it and put it back because he understood the dangers? Isn't that exactly what Rand did? I believe he is a good man. It is very plausible. Just some thoughts.

 

The Narishma explanation is to convenient. Which means, to me, that it is unlikely in this instance.

[Kadere]

So now your theory is that he went all the way to Tear for no other reason then to pull the sword and then decide against taking it so he put it back for Narishma to get?

 

well sure, I'll give you that could happen. But in that case let's write a theory that Taim did it, or Demandred, or Osan'gar. Cause all those guys make just as much since. If the only evidence you're going on is the possiblity that it could have happened because we weren't reading about Logain at the time, then you can fill in the blank with Mat.

 

Your theory is loose with a thousand "what if"'s and possiblities. There's no proof that this happened. No one around Logain mentions it, Cadsuane doesn't mention it, Narishma doesn't, there's nothing here to prove your right or wrong.

 

And then later after he bonds the Aes Sedai, he goes directly to Rand to get Rand's attention on Taim, and then follows him to his meeting with Semhirage, never mentioning the sword at all, or going directly to get it now that he has the necassary tools.

 

His pulling the sword proves no purpose to the story.

[TheDiceAgain...]

One problem, Rand had gone back to Tear and inverted the trap weaves that he set on Callandor after he learned how from Asmodean. So at that point they are invisible even to a male channeler. The only reason that Narishma knew that they were there in the first place was that Rand told him about them.

 

What this says is that firstly, Logain would have been caught and perhaps killed by the traps on Callandor because he never would have seen them before triggering them. Secondly, Logain has not had a Forsaken as a teacher and does not know how to invert weaves so even if he reset the wards on Callandor, they would have been visible to Narishma and he most likely would have mentioned this to Rand when he brought him the sword in PoD along with the "you didn't mention everything" comments.

[skalors3]

First off, you're right about having no proof. Hence, the word theory attached to to my post. This theory, to be honest, is as plausible as Narishma pulling the sword. The fact that nothing has been mentioned tells me that it is more likely than Narishma pulling the sword.

 

As far as going to Tear for no reason other than pulling the sword, I don't think that at all. He could have went to tear for a million reasons. There is no reason why he would want to go look at the sword. That is my point.

 

As far as saying that there is no purpose to the story for having Logain the one pulling Callandor is a ludicrous statement. As far as readings go, Min has had a million revolving around Taim and not one that involved Narishma. I think Logain has proved his worth as much as, if not more than, Narishma. He is a central character to the story where Narishma is mentioned in passing in almost every book. I think Narishma can be trusted, don't get me wrong. But it seems unlikely that he is destined for glory in the history books. I think he will pick up in the final battle when Rand falls. I think he will finish the job.

[skalors3]

One problem' date=' Rand had gone back to Tear and inverted the trap weaves that he set on Callandor after he learned how from Asmodean. So at that point they are invisible even to a male channeler. The only reason that Narishma knew that they were there in the first place was that Rand told him about them.

 

What this says is that firstly, Logain would have been caught and perhaps killed by the traps on Callandor because he never would have seen them before triggering them. Secondly, Logain has not had a Forsaken as a teacher and does not know how to invert weaves so even if he reset the wards on Callandor, they would have been visible to Narishma and he most likely would have mentioned this to Rand when he brought him the sword in PoD along with the "you didn't mention everything" comments.[/quote']

 

 

 

Dice, I think you're absolutely right in the sense that Logain probably would have been caught in the traps. However, there is a chance that he may not have been either. Maybe he has a ghost of a man in his head. We just don't know. I don't presume to know. He has been channeling longer than Rand has and has made huge leaps in terms of his learning on his own. We just don't know what he has and has not learned. Maybe the voices Cadsuane refers to in every man are voices from the past like in Rand's case. The taint, among other things, could be bridging that gap in the wheel.

 

Narishma knew about the traps, but not all of them. In lieu of what you said, he should have probably died as well. Yet he managed to escape. It goes to prove than inverted weaves are not invincible.

 

I don't think Narishma could see them. I think he was imbdued with knowledge of how to unwrap them. Just because you can't see a weave doesn't mean you can't cut that weave up. Lanfear did it all the time. As one of the forsaken said, you just need to know what it is they are casting.

[Guest Majsju]

If Narishma could have gotten through wards without prior knowledge, I am sure that Logain could as well.

 

Thing is, Narishma had prior knowledge. Rand told him there were inverted traps, and how to deal with most of them, which helped Narishma to handle the ones Rand forgot to mention.

 

Logain did not have the first clue about any traps. He did not know about inverted weaves. Even if he had known about that being possible, he would have had no idea where to start.

 

If Logain had went to Tear and tried to claim Callandor, Logain would be a very, very dead man now.

[skalors3]

If Narishma could have gotten through wards without prior knowledge' date=' I am sure that Logain could as well. [/quote']

 

Thing is, Narishma had prior knowledge. Rand told him there were inverted traps, and how to deal with most of them, which helped Narishma to handle the ones Rand forgot to mention.

 

Logain did not have the first clue about any traps. He did not know about inverted weaves. Even if he had known about that being possible, he would have had no idea where to start.

 

If Logain had went to Tear and tried to claim Callandor, Logain would be a very, very dead man now.

 

 

So we presume. You are making statements based on your limited knowledge of how things work. It is integral to Jordan's story; the danger of presumption. Elaida presumed that there could only be 2 men who could channel at the black tower, she was wrong. She presumed the other faction from the tower could not travel; she was wrong. I don't think I need to go on because it is part of every book of every story.

 

Just because we don't think it can be done doesn't mean it can't be. I never heard Sammuel say that inverting the weave made them invincible. We just know that you can see them. The people outside Ebou Dar could feel the weaves from the bowl of winds (or maybe that gateway gone wrong). Just because they can't be seen doesn't mean that they can't be sensed.

 

Who knows, maybe that is how Cadsuane fits into the story. The point is that we don't know. However, Narishma is a very poor candidate for following Rand.

[Kadere]

This is a hypothesis not a theory. A theory has evidence to support and has gone through experimentation.

 

This theory is no where near as plausible as Narishma pulling the sword, for the simple reason that we alreay know that Narishma pulled the sword. Something not being mentioned doesn't make it puzzle to be solved. We've been clearly told that Narishma pulled it, and there's been no evidence to believe that he wasn't the first.

 

And no, saying he has no purpose in pulling the sword is not a ludicrious statement, it is a vaild point. He has no motive. If he'd pulled the sword and used it, or if he'd had any reason to pull the sword other then his dislike of Taim you'd have a more solid hypothesis. At the time he didn't have the Aes Sedai, he doesn't have the support in the Black Tower, he does what Rand tells him. There's no rational reason to believe he would have done this.

[Jellybelly]

First off, you're right about having no proof. Hence, the word theory attached to to my post. This theory, to be honest, is as plausible as Narishma pulling the sword. The fact that nothing has been mentioned tells me that it is more likely than Narishma pulling the sword.

 

As far as going to Tear for no reason other than pulling the sword, I don't think that at all. He could have went to tear for a million reasons. There is no reason why he would want to go look at the sword. That is my point.

 

As far as saying that there is no purpose to the story for having Logain the one pulling Callandor is a ludicrous statement. As far as readings go, Min has had a million revolving around Taim and not one that involved Narishma. I think Logain has proved his worth as much as, if not more than, Narishma. He is a central character to the story where Narishma is mentioned in passing in almost every book. I think Narishma can be trusted, don't get me wrong. But it seems unlikely that he is destined for glory in the history books. I think he will pick up in the final battle when Rand falls. I think he will finish the job.

 

I would hesitate greatly to call this a theory. A theory needs proof. What you have here is at best a hypothesis, but even a hypothesis needs substantion.

 

Any academic will tell you that a theory or hypothesis needs positive evidence to back up a proposal. That means that in order for this to even be a theory, you would need facts from the books to back it up. Negative evidence, as you have provided, will just not cut it. I could say that "the sky will be pink with green dots tomorrow," and call that a theory. When someone tells me that it will not, because it never has happened before, I would say that that does not mean it neverl will.

 

It just will not do it to say that it "could have happened that way", when no evidence even suggests at this being the case

[skalors3]

You assume madness or forgetfulness being the reason that Rand never told Narishma everything. What if he didn't know. Don't use an excuse to write-off or obscure a statement and fact. The trends and evidence do not support Narishma to be honest. The only proof is that he pulled the sword. There is no proof, NONE AT ALL, suggesting that he was the first. Those are two very different facts. The only evidence we have is that he is the only person mentioned to have pulled the sword. There were new weaves there. That is the where the facts take us. You are disregarding evidence for your own benefit with no proof whatsoever. Rand had not forgotten a single thing up to that point and nothing since then. How can a person argue that he simly forgot just once. Problems are never isolated events. They are usually inherent in every person. They become worse as a story builds. They don't show up once and disappear.

 

The only way any person could be sure is if Rand went himself. Which he conveniently did not. Which means that the chances that Narishma was not the first to pull it are good.

 

By the way people, this is a book series, not a science project:) In a book, evidence usually points to the truth in a vague sense. Truth doesn't club you over the head.

[Guest Majsju]

You are making statements based on your limited knowledge of how things work. It is integral to Jordan's story; the danger of presumption. Elaida presumed that there could only be 2 men who could channel at the black tower, she was wrong. She presumed the other faction from the tower could not travel; she was wrong. I don't think I need to go on because it is part of every book of every story.

 

You know, there is one great difference between reader and character, we have a far greater knowledge than any of the characters in the novels, because of our perspective as watchers.

 

So what is it that we have so limited knowledge about? That Rand told Narisham about the inverted weaves? Nope, that is stated in the novels. That Rand told Narishma how to deal with those weaves? Also a fact directly from the books. That the weaves posed a lethal threat to anyone approaching them without this knowledge? We have two quite strong pieces of evidence here, first of all Rand sets the weaves to protect against the forsaken. Needless to say, the forsaken has quite a bit more knowledge than Logain, even if he had Cadsuane holding his hand. And Narishma's comment about him almost dying because Rand forgot to tell him everything.

Narishma had almost all information required, and still almost died because of the little knowledge he lacked. But you want to suggest that Logain can pop in from nowhere, radomly fumbling his way through weaves he can't se, and manage to not only survive that, but also reset them perfectly once he has changed his mind about taking the sword? Since Rand's instructions helped Narishma, Logain would have been required to reset the weaves perfectly for this hypothesis to have even a shred of substance to it.

 

And then there's the timeline. Egwene arranges for Logain to escape on Danu 22, 999 NE (Day 632)

 

On Jumara 20 1000 NE (Day 686) Logain and the others capture Toveine and her group. This means that If Logain headed directly from Salidar to the Black Tower, he would have had less than two months to not only get himself into a position where he is trusted to lead a group out patroling, he also has enough authority to feel perfectly safe taking own initiatives despite knowing Taim might disagree with them.

 

That is a very short time, especially for a man who at the time for the travel doesn't know how to make a gateway, so he has to ride all the way.

 

If you throw in a little sidetrip to Tear in this, he would have had less than one month at the Black Tower. It doesn't work.

[skalors3]

He could have went to tear after he went to the Black Tower. That covers his traveling issues. Secondly, as a reader we only have a limited knowledge as well. We only know what we are told. Which, suffice to say, is nowhere near everything.

 

Logaine may have known about the weaves Rand casted from traveling with Elayne and the ladies from the Two Rivers. You assume nothing was discussed. I would be more interested in the conversations and actions we don't know about versus the ones that we do.

 

The simple fact remains that there is a lack of knowledge. Given everything we know about Rand, it is not likely that he forgot about the weaves he placed at Tear. I think it is to convenient a solution for a very important matter.

[skalors3]

Also, to comment Msjsu's interpretation of my comment, I was referring to our limited knowledge of how the power itself works. Not on our limited knowledge as a reader. I did not make a connection to his statement against mine. I commented on our knowledge to how things work. Not on our knowledge to what has occured.

[TheDiceAgain...]

But Rand didn't invert the weaves until he got back from the Waste. When Rand orginally set the weaves, they were not inverted, so if Logain talked to someone in Salidar about them and went to Tear expecting the traps he would have expected to be able to see them.

(and BTW, of the Salidar Aes Sedai, only Egwene was there to see them originally set, Elayne and Nyneave were already at the docks boarding the Sea Folk ship)

 

But that's actually beside the point. No one in the Heart of the Stone that day other than Rand knew what he had done, unless one of the male Forsaken was there, which is highly doubtful, because none of them could see the weaves anyway. They had no idea waht he had done and once he inverted the weaves, noone had any idea what traps were laid. That's why Rand had to give Narishma the guidance in the first place.

 

Also, how does Cadsuane enter into this anyway? Yes she has a ter'angreal that can sense a man channeling, but I can't find anywhere that it says that it can tell her what exactly is being channeled or distinguish tied off weaves. Nor do we have any indication that she knows how to invert a weave, so how could she have counciled him on it?

 

So for your theory to work, Logain had to sprint like the wind to the Black Tower, learn to Travel, Travel to Tear, meet up with Cadsuane(who couldn't help him anway) and spontaeneously learn about inverted weaves and exactly how to slice or unravel them without getting killed in the process. Only to then decide that he didn't really want the 3rd most powerful sa'angreal ever made, replace the sword and then reweave and invert the traps almost exactly as they had been in the first place.

 

That just stretches the bounds of believability beyond anything I'm willing to consider.

[Kadere]

My main problem with this is no where is it indicated that Logain or Cadsuane would stab Rand in the back like this for their own gain. Logain would NEVER go to Tear to steal the sword. His whole character is about how he believes Rand to be the true Dragon Reborn. He won't even go against Taim without Rand's say so. He goes to talk to the Sea Folk because Rand tells him too when he wants to be fighting Taim. He helps Rand with Semirhage. At no point EVER is it indicated that he would be so dishonest to not only try and steal Rand's weapon, but then to not admit to it later after he comes to Rand in CoT is perpusterious. Logain is not that kind of guy, and you'd be hard pressed to find anything showing Logain dileberatly back stabbing Rand like that.

 

And the exact same thing goes to Cadsuane. Who, by the way, we have pages and pages and pages of her PoV none of which mentioning Logain or the sword. She believes in Rand. She thinks he needs to be shown where to go, but she wouldn't hand the 3rd most powerful sa'angreal to another man who could channel. That would never happen.

 

And then when Rand goes to Tear in KoD there's no one mentioning the fact that someone else came for the sword.

 

None of this makes any sense. Without any evidence to support this hypothesis, the hypothesis falls flat.

[Luckers]

Logain did not gain permission to go on recruiting trips till CoT. Before then we know he did not leave the Black Tower.

[skalors3]

I am addressing two issues here. The first is why would you think Logain pulling the sword would be stabbing Rand in the back? Prophecy says that someone would come after him.

 

Dice, Cadsuane fits nowhere in the picture besides being a possibility for informing Logain that Callandor was imperfect. As far as getting to the black tower, Logain wasn't that far from it. Learning to travel takes about 4 seconds from what we have seen.

 

As far as anyone knowing what Rand did. I never implied that. Logain being aware that Rand set traps is enough to warn him wouldn't you agree? He doesn't need to see them, just knowing gives him an edge over someone else. I never suggested he knew what was weaved.

[Kadere]

"A dark young man held an object in his hand that shone so brightly she could not see what it was." - p. 203, ACoS, Unseen Eyes.

 

This is obviously Narishma (who is a dark young man) holding Callindor (a bright object). There is no viewing or dream of Logain doing this.

[Kadere]

Because Rand didn't sanction it. Callindor is Rand's weapon. Only Rand or those directed by Rand are allowed to touch it. To touch it without permission would going against Rand. Stabbing him in the back. Logain is loyal to Rand, he would never do this without permission.

[RobertAlexWillis]

In the interest of being brief ... let me just say that to me, this theory makes absolutely no sense from start to finish.