"Extracting" Rand from Tel'aran'rhiod

[herid]

 

Much easier to just blow the horn of Valere.

I argued this for a few years because I didn't like the idea of Rand being resurrected. I wanted him to die and stay dead, because it seemed right to me. But the prophecies indicated that he would die before saving the day, so I figured he'd be called back by the Horn. Many people argued that would be lame, but my argument was basically: the Horn had to have been made for a specific purpose, so why not this? But in retrospect I tend to agree it's a bit on the lame side for him to save the world in immortal form. And while it would be cool to see Rand called by the Horn, and it might well happen, I think he will be resurrected either way. It may be that no one gets the idea to resurrect him until they blow the Horn, but it would be pretty lame for Rand to tell them how to do it like that. Better for them to figure it out, resurrect him before the Horn is blown, and then the Horn makes a parallel to the empty tomb when it's blown and Rand isn't there.

 

It just occurred to me that aside from being somewhat lame (which I do think it would be) Rand coming back after being called by the Horn can most likely be ruled out based on a viewing of Min from ToM:

She hesitated. "I see the Two Rivers, Rand. I see an inn there with the mark of the Dragon's Fang inlaid on its door. No longer be a symbol of darkness or hate. A sign of victory and hope."

-T0M, Ch 25

Min's viewings always involve people she is viewing at the moment. Even if a viewing is not showing them directly they have to be "in the area", so to speak. If that holds true for this particular viewing it means that Rand is alive and well and is in the Two Rivers some time after the LB.

And that would in turn mean that he was successfully resurrected at some point. It would be very strange if that happened after the LB was over. This does leave the possibility of the scenario as you describe that he would be called by the Horn and then resurrected some time after that but before the LB is over. This seems pretty unlikely to me.

[FarShainMael]

This passage has been interpreted as being about Rand's death, and subsequent resurrection

 

"We can find a way, Rand," Nynaeve said. "Surely there is a way to win but also let you live."

 

"No," he growled softly. "Do not tempt me down that path again. It only leads to pain, Nynaeve. I . . . I used to think about leaving something behind to help the world survive once I died, but that was a struggle to keep living. I can't indulge myself. I'll climb this bloody mountain and face the sun. You all will deal with what comes next. That is how it must be."

 

But Rand has already climbed the mountain and faced the sun.. in VoG. And then he laughed. 'It had been far too long.'

[Terez]

This passage has been interpreted as being about Rand's death, and subsequent resurrection

 

"We can find a way, Rand," Nynaeve said. "Surely there is a way to win but also let you live."

 

"No," he growled softly. "Do not tempt me down that path again. It only leads to pain, Nynaeve. I . . . I used to think about leaving something behind to help the world survive once I died, but that was a struggle to keep living. I can't indulge myself. I'll climb this bloody mountain and face the sun. You all will deal with what comes next. That is how it must be."

 

But Rand has already climbed the mountain and faced the sun.. in VoG. And then he laughed. 'It had been far too long.'

That doesn't change the fact that it's foreshadowing for 'what comes next'. I usually bold both bits when I quote it.

[mb]

Karaethon Cycle seems to point to his resurrection.

Though the who and the how is yet to be seen.

 

Both who and how can be different than indicated in that scene and/or in any scene.

 

 

Though I hope for a return in his own body.

[FarShainMael]

This passage has been interpreted as being about Rand's death, and subsequent resurrection

 

"We can find a way, Rand," Nynaeve said. "Surely there is a way to win but also let you live."

 

"No," he growled softly. "Do not tempt me down that path again. It only leads to pain, Nynaeve. I . . . I used to think about leaving something behind to help the world survive once I died, but that was a struggle to keep living. I can't indulge myself. I'll climb this bloody mountain and face the sun. You all will deal with what comes next. That is how it must be."

 

But Rand has already climbed the mountain and faced the sun.. in VoG. And then he laughed. 'It had been far too long.'

That doesn't change the fact that it's foreshadowing for 'what comes next'. I usually bold both bits when I quote it.

 

That's exactly my point - that the scene with Nynaeve foreshadowed what happened in VoG. And everyone is gathering on the FoM to 'deal with what comes next'. So we've had both the foreshadowing of an event, and the event itself.

[Terez]

This passage has been interpreted as being about Rand's death, and subsequent resurrection

 

"We can find a way, Rand," Nynaeve said. "Surely there is a way to win but also let you live."

 

"No," he growled softly. "Do not tempt me down that path again. It only leads to pain, Nynaeve. I . . . I used to think about leaving something behind to help the world survive once I died, but that was a struggle to keep living. I can't indulge myself. I'll climb this bloody mountain and face the sun. You all will deal with what comes next. That is how it must be."

 

But Rand has already climbed the mountain and faced the sun.. in VoG. And then he laughed. 'It had been far too long.'

That doesn't change the fact that it's foreshadowing for 'what comes next'. I usually bold both bits when I quote it.

 

That's exactly my point - that the scene with Nynaeve foreshadowed what happened in VoG. And everyone is gathering on the FoM to 'deal with what comes next'.

So you're saying it was already fulfilled, but it wasn't really?

 

So we've had both the foreshadowing of an event, and the event itself.

Which is exactly how I use the quote - as foreshadowing of something we've already seen, and as foreshadowing of something yet to come. Your words again:

 

This passage has been interpreted as being about Rand's death, and subsequent resurrection

 

"We can find a way, Rand," Nynaeve said. "Surely there is a way to win but also let you live."

 

"No," he growled softly. "Do not tempt me down that path again. It only leads to pain, Nynaeve. I . . . I used to think about leaving something behind to help the world survive once I died, but that was a struggle to keep living. I can't indulge myself. I'll climb this bloody mountain and face the sun. You all will deal with what comes next. That is how it must be."

 

But Rand has already climbed the mountain and faced the sun.. in VoG. And then he laughed. 'It had been far too long.'

You seem to be trying to say that I have somehow erred by using the quote to show that it's foreshadowing of Rand's death because it's foreshadowing of something that already happened. So you've turned around in a circle. Furthermore, you left out this bit:

 

"We can find a way, Rand," Nynaeve said. "Surely there is a way to win but also let you live."

 

"No," he growled softly. "Do not tempt me down that path again. It only leads to pain, Nynaeve. I . . . I used to think about leaving something behind to help the world survive once I died, but that was a struggle to keep living. I can't indulge myself. I'll climb this bloody mountain and face the sun. You all will deal with what comes next. That is how it must be."

 

She opened her mouth to object again, but he gave her a sharp glance. "That is how it must be, Nynaeve."

 

She closed her mouth.

 

"You did well tonight," Rand said. "You have saved us all a lot of trouble."

 

"I did it because I want you to trust me," Nynaeve said, then immediately cursed herself. Why had she said that? Was she really so tired that she blabbed the first thing that came to her mind?

 

Rand just nodded. "I do trust you, Nynaeve. As much as I trust anyone; more than I trust most. You think you know what is best for me, even against my wishes, but that is something I can accept. The difference between you and Cadsuane is that you actually care about me. She only cares about my place in her plans. She wants me to be part of the Last Battle. You want me to live. For that, you have my thanks. Dream on my behalf, Nynaeve. Dream for things I no longer can."

Which rather supports my theory that 'what comes next' refers to Nynaeve using Tel'aran'rhiod to resurrect Rand. Of course, Rand's phrase about climbing the mountain and facing the sun was, in his mind, a reference to his death. That hasn't happened yet. Some might argue that Rand somehow 'died' on Dragonmount in a way that fulfills all of the prophecies, but that's a cheap literary stunt that I really, really doubt RJ ever even considered using (though he clearly took care to supply several possible interpretations along those lines as red herrings, probably to detract from the fact that he was planning on killing Rand off before he'd saved the day, which is something he has been dropping hints about since TEOTW).

[FarShainMael]

This passage has been interpreted as being about Rand's death, and subsequent resurrection

 

"We can find a way, Rand," Nynaeve said. "Surely there is a way to win but also let you live."

 

"No," he growled softly. "Do not tempt me down that path again. It only leads to pain, Nynaeve. I . . . I used to think about leaving something behind to help the world survive once I died, but that was a struggle to keep living. I can't indulge myself. I'll climb this bloody mountain and face the sun. You all will deal with what comes next. That is how it must be."

 

But Rand has already climbed the mountain and faced the sun.. in VoG. And then he laughed. 'It had been far too long.'

That doesn't change the fact that it's foreshadowing for 'what comes next'. I usually bold both bits when I quote it.

 

That's exactly my point - that the scene with Nynaeve foreshadowed what happened in VoG. And everyone is gathering on the FoM to 'deal with what comes next'.

So you're saying it was already fulfilled, but it wasn't really?

 

I think it has been and is now being fulfilled - both the event where Rand faces the sun on top of the 'unclimbable mountain' that is Dragonmount, in VoG; and currently in the FoM.

 

So we've had both the foreshadowing of an event, and the event itself.

Which is exactly how I use the quote - as foreshadowing of something we've already seen, and as foreshadowing of something yet to come.

 

So we agree on that at least. However, we differ on what exactly it is that was being foreshadowed.

 

You seem to be trying to say that I have somehow erred by using the quote to show that it's foreshadowing of Rand's death because it's foreshadowing of something that already happened. So you've turned around in a circle.

 

No circle is involved (even if this is the WoT.. ) but yes, I think you have erred.

 

Furthermore, you left out this bit:

 

"We can find a way, Rand," Nynaeve said. "Surely there is a way to win but also let you live."

 

"No," he growled softly. "Do not tempt me down that path again. It only leads to pain, Nynaeve. I . . . I used to think about leaving something behind to help the world survive once I died, but that was a struggle to keep living. I can't indulge myself. I'll climb this bloody mountain and face the sun. You all will deal with what comes next. That is how it must be."

 

She opened her mouth to object again, but he gave her a sharp glance. "That is how it must be, Nynaeve."

 

She closed her mouth.

 

"You did well tonight," Rand said. "You have saved us all a lot of trouble."

 

"I did it because I want you to trust me," Nynaeve said, then immediately cursed herself. Why had she said that? Was she really so tired that she blabbed the first thing that came to her mind?

 

Rand just nodded. "I do trust you, Nynaeve. As much as I trust anyone; more than I trust most. You think you know what is best for me, even against my wishes, but that is something I can accept. The difference between you and Cadsuane is that you actually care about me. She only cares about my place in her plans. She wants me to be part of the Last Battle. You want me to live. For that, you have my thanks. Dream on my behalf, Nynaeve. Dream for things I no longer can."

 

Which rather supports my theory that 'what comes next' refers to Nynaeve using Tel'aran'rhiod to resurrect Rand. Of course, Rand's phrase about climbing the mountain and facing the sun was, in his mind, a reference to his death. That hasn't happened yet. Some might argue that Rand somehow 'died' on Dragonmount in a way that fulfills all of the prophecies, but that's a cheap literary stunt that I really, really doubt RJ ever even considered using (though he clearly took care to supply several possible interpretations along those lines as red herrings, probably to detract from the fact that he was planning on killing Rand off before he'd saved the day, which is something he has been dropping hints about since TEOTW).

 

I did indeed argue exactly that, as I'm sure you remember, because I referred to it earlier in this thread; if not, here's the link to my actual post:

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/59003-betrayed-w-a-kiss/page__st__40__p__1823061

 

Your opinion of this as a 'cheap literary stunt' or a 'red herring' is yours to hold, and mine to disagree with.

 

However, I do agree with you that RJ was indeed planning to kill Rand off early. I said so here (post 2), and I base that on 'twice to live and twice to die', as I said here (post 13), and indeed earlier in this very thread.

 

So, it seems that what we disagree about is Rand being resurrected from T'A'R, Birgitte-fashion. I know you're very keen on that interpretation, but it does nothing for me, particularly as I think Min's Viewing of Birgitte and GC indicates that she will die in TG and rejoin the HotH, meaning that her pseudo-life in Randland is only temporary.

[Terez]

No circle is involved (even if this is the WoT.. )

Oh, there was definitely a circle...but I'll leave it at that, since I believe I already demonstrated the fact.

 

I think Min's Viewing of Birgitte and GC indicates that she will die in TG and rejoin the HotH, meaning that her pseudo-life in Randland is only temporary.

If that were the case, there would be no reason for Gaidal to be younger. I've argued as much before; it might have been with you, but I don't remember.

[FarShainMael]

I have commented on this before, but I can't find the quote, so I'll run through it again.

 

Min's viewing of Birgitte from WH12 is:

Auras danced around her and images flickered, more than Min had ever seen around anyone, thousands it seemed, cascading over one another...

 

..those multitude of images and auras flashed by too quickly for her to make out any clearly, but she was certain they indicated more adventures than a woman could have in one lifetime. Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older that she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man.

 

It's far from clear from this whether the 'she' that Min's PoV refers to is Birgitte in viewings (does she view Birgitte and GC together? We don't know) or to the woman who is standing in front of her. If the latter, then she's seeing things from different stages in B and G's lives, which is reasonable. My opinion is that there is plenty of wiggle room here.

[Terez]

It's definitely Birgitte she saw - no one with any sense questions that. And they should have the same relative age difference at any given point in life. So, no wiggle room.

[FarShainMael]

Let me clarify. Min encountered Birgitte, whom she recognised as Birgitte Silverbow, and saw a multitude of viewings around her. My question is: did she also see Birgitte in the viewings around the Birgitte who was standing in front of her? Did she see two Birgittes - Birgitte who was physically present and Birgitte who was viewed?

[Terez]

Let me clarify. Min encountered Birgitte, whom she recognised as Birgitte Silverbow, and saw a multitude of viewings around her. My question is: did she also see Birgitte in the viewings around the Birgitte who was standing in front of her? Did she see two Birgittes - Birgitte who was physically present and Birgitte who was viewed?

It's the same Birgitte, so I don't see much in the way of clarification here. She saw Birgitte, more experiences than any woman can have in one life, sometimes connected to an older man, sometimes connected to a much younger man, whom Min recognized as being the same man. And supposedly, Min only sees the future.

[FarShainMael]

The relevant passage reads as follows:

 

Besides, those multitudes of images and auras flashed by too quickly for her to make out any clearly, but she was certain they indicated more adventures than a woman could have in one lifetime. Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older than she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man.

(emphasis mine)

 

The words 'some' and 'others' refer not to Birgitte, but to the images and auras, which Min cannot make out clearly. We do not know whether she saw images of Birgitte as well as the (apparently) flesh-and-blood woman standing in front of her.

 

My point therefore stands. We cannot deduce from this passage anything about Birgitte's future other than that she will, at some point, rejoin GC and the HotH in T'A'R.

 

And since I am now repeating myself, I will withdraw from this discussion, and leave it to the forum readers to make up their own minds on the subject.

 

We'll all know the answers next year. Most of them, at least!

[mb]

Viewings (and the other forms of prophecy) seem to apply to just the waking world; not to Telaranrhiod.

[MauricXe]

Maybe Rand is killed, and his killer is balefired and he returns. I think that would satisfy the prophecy.

 

As long as no bodies are swapped, I'll be okay

[Terez]

Maybe Rand is killed, and his killer is balefired and he returns. I think that would satisfy the prophecy.

But it wouldn't heal his unhealable wounds. Presumably only Tel'aran'rhiod can do that (and this ties into the Perun legends). Also, if the reason Rand must die is related to his link with Moridin or some such, then balefire wouldn't fix the problem. In fact, the nature of balefire seems to render his death completely pointless. Which will presumably not be the case - there has to be a reason for him to die.

[MauricXe]

^^good points.

[mb]

Karaethon Cycle tells 1 reason for Rand's death:: save mankind from the Shadow.

If the Shadow is dealt with by someone else before his resurrection, balefire would not change that.

 

I do not recall any prophecy telling that his wounds would become healed.

And Telaranrhiod does not permanently heal wounds; so far the series shown just Healing doing a permanent heal.