How was it that Rand had so much power in VoG?

[WhiskyJack]

 

We don't actually how strong all the ashaman are so I wouldn't necessarily say that only Rand, Taim, and Logain are stronger than Nyneave.

 

 

Rand said something about Narishma being one of the "strong" Asha'man and Aes Sedai he is bonded to is stronger than him (as for as I remember). I based my opinion on that. Nynaeve made direct comment about Naeff being weaker than her. We have not seen powerful Ashaman except L/R/T. And it would make sense considering how quickly they were assembled and most probably learned to channel. Nynaeve on the the hand like Rand or Logain is an anomaly and no Aes Sedai right noe comes even close to her strength. No doubt they beat average Aes Sedai in strength.

[MasterAblar]

 

 

Grandael: "He very well might be the most powerful of the three, more DANGEROUS than Semirhage" (emphasis added). Book 13, page 39 of the hardcover version.

 

 

And this means what? That his personality is more "dangerous". That he is more POWERFUL tactician? Why is that Demandred never fought LTT? Aginor did. How come he couldn't beat 1 ashaman's and 2 Aes Sedai in link? How come Rahvin and Bel'al had balls to challenge Rand but not Demandred?

 

 

I see you finally understand why Demandred >> Semirhage in a face-to-face one-on-one battle.

 

Semirhage is slighly weaker than Nynaeve, meanwhile Demandred is "almost" as strong as LTT and "almost" LTT's skill level in the Power.

 

For this point, you have to use Grandael's PoV. She is very likely the smartest of the Chosen, even LTT/Rand knew he could never out smart her (he does not give this kind of credit to ANYONE else). Grandael knows the human mind better than probably anyone else ever did = probably the most DANGEROUS of the Chosen.

=/= win against weaker opponent. Ambushes, setting up proper pawns, events to take out the stronger opponent...etc.

 

 

WTF? My point only proved that Demandred is more talk and less show. And that made me understand how dangerous he is? Because he lost against 3 weak channlers in link! Awesome!

 

 

 

Just because you are stronger, more skillfull in the Power (Demandred)

 

LOLOL..Everytime you don't know what toy say, you invent hypothetical situation! Why didn't people then right and left ambush LTT and kill him? I am pretty sure Demandred could have caught Rand way too many time in open combat or even ambushed him. Since we are talking "hypothetical"... In reality he avoids fight because HE SUCKS at fighting. He claimed in tWH that a general and not a soldier and performed weakly against 1 Ashaman and 2 Aes sedai in link, none of them particularly strong in power.

 

 

 

You are becoming a bit hysterical.

 

Mat btw has a similar saying and I assume you think he also sucks at fighting?

 

Demandred being "almost" LTT...I suppose now you think LTT sucks as well?

 

SHOW ME A SINGLE QUOTE THAT SAYS THAT DEMANDRED WAS ALMOST LTT IN FIGHTING? He was almost LTT in skill and achievement and CLOSE IN POWER but not in fighting. Aginor was almost LTT in strength and yet Dashiva was nothing more than a coward. Ishy was LTT's match in power and yet he lost, twice. You are so hungover the idea of raw power that you again and again ignoring the actual fights and keep harping about what someone said and what could have been, NONE OF WHICH CAN BE PROVEN.

 

Of course strength doesn't mean everything, and neither does dexteriousity. You see it with Aginor, who's extremely strong but rather lame compared to others of similar strength when it comes to fighting. Some people are just good at fighting and others are not. And it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the power.

 

However Aginor was never said to be second to LTT in everything, just in the power, which is not the case of Demandred who seems to be second to LTT in everything. The forsaken who are not good in fighting have more or less stayed silent before others, and Demandred seems to think Aginor had no place among the forsaken were it not for his special talents. Demandred has never been silent, and no one has challenged him, so I tend to see him as a very capable fighter.

 

If he hasn't faced Rand yet, it's just because he's smarter than the rest. No use taking such a big risk. In fact Sammael did not attack Rand either, it was Rand who attacked him.

[MasterAblar]

 

We don't actually how strong all the ashaman are so I wouldn't necessarily say that only Rand, Taim, and Logain are stronger than Nyneave.

 

 

Rand said something about Narishma being one of the "strong" Asha'man and Aes Sedai he is bonded to is stronger than him (as for as I remember). I based my opinion on that. Nynaeve made direct comment about Naeff being weaker than her. We have not seen powerful Ashaman except L/R/T. And it would make sense considering how quickly they were assembled and most probably learned to channel. Nynaeve on the the hand like Rand or Logain is an anomaly and no Aes Sedai right noe comes even close to her strength. No doubt they beat average Aes Sedai in strength.

 

I'm not saying that Flinn or Narishma or any of the ashaman are stronger than Nyneave, just that we know too little of them and who the strongest among them are to be able to say without a doubt that Nyneave is stronger than all except the three previously mentioned.

[XXX]

^^Can you post the quote from Jordan? Lanfear had an angreal (don't remember it being so powerful that it was like a sa'angreal) and so did Rand. I don't think Lanfear had a Sa'angreal because Sa'angreal can give way too much power to a person (multiplying their power like 10 times or more). Even a woman with "zero" power could have beaten LTT with a Sa'angreal. Besides at that time Rand was not at his full potential so if he was the one channeling less power and he was capable of beating Lanfear due to knowledge of LTT, does it not prove that power isn't everything? Exactly what Jordan was trying to say? Was LTT the most skilled channeler? Perhaps. He did a man with same strength twice.

 

 

Jordan's quote emphasizes the idea of skill over brute force since opposite sexes cannot see each others weave. I don't know about Ishy or why he matters but it seems Aginor had fought LTT and met him stroke for stoke in Hall of Servants as he claimed in first book.

 

 

I will try to dig up the RJ quote...Lanfear was using the ivory bracelet angreal which Moraine says at the end of ToM is nearly a sa'angreal. So either Rand was stronger than Lanfear even with her powerful angreal compared to his average angreal or LTT is more skilled. Now RJ says women are more skilled with weaves so Lanfear should be more skilled.

I am not sure what is correct..Rand is either more powerful and skilled than anyone else except Ishy so the normal limitations which men have do not apply to him or something else is going on.

[WhiskyJack]

 

 

Grandael: "He very well might be the most powerful of the three, more DANGEROUS than Semirhage" (emphasis added). Book 13, page 39 of the hardcover version.

 

 

And this means what? That his personality is more "dangerous". That he is more POWERFUL tactician? Why is that Demandred never fought LTT? Aginor did. How come he couldn't beat 1 ashaman's and 2 Aes Sedai in link? How come Rahvin and Bel'al had balls to challenge Rand but not Demandred?

 

 

I see you finally understand why Demandred >> Semirhage in a face-to-face one-on-one battle.

 

Semirhage is slighly weaker than Nynaeve, meanwhile Demandred is "almost" as strong as LTT and "almost" LTT's skill level in the Power.

 

For this point, you have to use Grandael's PoV. She is very likely the smartest of the Chosen, even LTT/Rand knew he could never out smart her (he does not give this kind of credit to ANYONE else). Grandael knows the human mind better than probably anyone else ever did = probably the most DANGEROUS of the Chosen.

=/= win against weaker opponent. Ambushes, setting up proper pawns, events to take out the stronger opponent...etc.

 

 

WTF? My point only proved that Demandred is more talk and less show. And that made me understand how dangerous he is? Because he lost against 3 weak channlers in link! Awesome!

 

 

 

Just because you are stronger, more skillfull in the Power (Demandred)

 

LOLOL..Everytime you don't know what toy say, you invent hypothetical situation! Why didn't people then right and left ambush LTT and kill him? I am pretty sure Demandred could have caught Rand way too many time in open combat or even ambushed him. Since we are talking "hypothetical"... In reality he avoids fight because HE SUCKS at fighting. He claimed in tWH that a general and not a soldier and performed weakly against 1 Ashaman and 2 Aes sedai in link, none of them particularly strong in power.

 

 

 

You are becoming a bit hysterical.

 

Mat btw has a similar saying and I assume you think he also sucks at fighting?

 

Demandred being "almost" LTT...I suppose now you think LTT sucks as well?

 

SHOW ME A SINGLE QUOTE THAT SAYS THAT DEMANDRED WAS ALMOST LTT IN FIGHTING? He was almost LTT in skill and achievement and CLOSE IN POWER but not in fighting. Aginor was almost LTT in strength and yet Dashiva was nothing more than a coward. Ishy was LTT's match in power and yet he lost, twice. You are so hungover the idea of raw power that you again and again ignoring the actual fights and keep harping about what someone said and what could have been, NONE OF WHICH CAN BE PROVEN.

 

Of course strength doesn't mean everything, and neither does dexteriousity. You see it with Aginor, who's extremely strong but rather lame compared to others of similar strength when it comes to fighting. Some people are just good at fighting and others are not. And it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the power.

 

However Aginor was never said to be second to LTT in everything, just in the power, which is not the case of Demandred who seems to be second to LTT in everything. The forsaken who are not good in fighting have more or less stayed silent before others, and Demandred seems to think Aginor had no place among the forsaken were it not for his special talents. Demandred has never been silent, and no one has challenged him, so I tend to see him as a very capable fighter.

 

If he hasn't faced Rand yet, it's just because he's smarter than the rest. No use taking such a big risk. In fact Sammael did not attack Rand either, it was Rand who attacked him.

 

 

Point well taken except..Demandred was not mentioned as almost LTT in strength. And as for as skill goes, I doubt it was his fighting skill they were talking about.

 

 

It's the basic theme of story. Strong personalities dominate weak ones. It is not about power. Power was not a big issue in AoL since circles were used for most task. Chosen were not picked for their brute strength. Asmodean is one good example. He has always been portrayed as weakest and yet he gave the best fight! With Forsaken, it's impossible to predict that their standing is based on skill, power or just aggressive behavior. Demandred has tough attitude. Remember Sammael. That guy could shout at anyone. He had fighter instinct but not really a great fighter in actuality. LTT feared Semirhage. By placing himself openly Sammael insured that Rand will attack him. He didn't hide like Demandred. Demandred clearly doesn't believe in taking Rand one to one considering how much he hates Rand. You would think he would have killed Rand the first opportunity he got! Because the man knows that he might get his ass kicked. He will probably never attack Rand unless he fights Rand half dead. He will let "others" deal with him.

 

 

Damn...

[WhiskyJack]

^^Can you post the quote from Jordan? Lanfear had an angreal (don't remember it being so powerful that it was like a sa'angreal) and so did Rand. I don't think Lanfear had a Sa'angreal because Sa'angreal can give way too much power to a person (multiplying their power like 10 times or more). Even a woman with "zero" power could have beaten LTT with a Sa'angreal. Besides at that time Rand was not at his full potential so if he was the one channeling less power and he was capable of beating Lanfear due to knowledge of LTT, does it not prove that power isn't everything? Exactly what Jordan was trying to say? Was LTT the most skilled channeler? Perhaps. He did a man with same strength twice.

 

 

Jordan's quote emphasizes the idea of skill over brute force since opposite sexes cannot see each others weave. I don't know about Ishy or why he matters but it seems Aginor had fought LTT and met him stroke for stoke in Hall of Servants as he claimed in first book.

 

 

I will try to dig up the RJ quote...Lanfear was using the ivory bracelet angreal which Moraine says at the end of ToM is nearly a sa'angreal. So either Rand was stronger than Lanfear even with her powerful angreal compared to his average angreal or LTT is more skilled. Now RJ says women are more skilled with weaves so Lanfear should be more skilled.

I am not sure what is correct..Rand is either more powerful and skilled than anyone else except Ishy so the normal limitations which men have do not apply to him or something else is going on.

 

 

 

 

Both are correct. RJ's comment are not absolute. There are always exceptions. He only meant that a weaker woman can match a stronger man. It's all about average. Raw strength doesn't cut it. Was LTT most skilled fighter? Most probably. He beat Ishy twice and basically beat everybody else..Doesn't mean Lanfear couldn't own Ishmael or Aginor or Demandred.

[WhiskyJack]

 

We don't actually how strong all the ashaman are so I wouldn't necessarily say that only Rand, Taim, and Logain are stronger than Nyneave.

 

 

Rand said something about Narishma being one of the "strong" Asha'man and Aes Sedai he is bonded to is stronger than him (as for as I remember). I based my opinion on that. Nynaeve made direct comment about Naeff being weaker than her. We have not seen powerful Ashaman except L/R/T. And it would make sense considering how quickly they were assembled and most probably learned to channel. Nynaeve on the the hand like Rand or Logain is an anomaly and no Aes Sedai right noe comes even close to her strength. No doubt they beat average Aes Sedai in strength.

 

I'm not saying that Flinn or Narishma or any of the ashaman are stronger than Nyneave, just that we know too little of them and who the strongest among them are to be able to say without a doubt that Nyneave is stronger than all except the three previously mentioned.

 

 

That's true. My point was that you cannot arm story on everyone. It has been remarked few times in book that Lanfear was second most powerful forsaken. Now I doubt she was stronger than Aginor but obviously she was considered more deadly so whatever she had, she packed a heavy punch.

[XXX]

Lanfear was stronger than Aginor in the OP according to Moriane atleast...Lanfear is the strongest a woman can be,she must have been especially strong because even after getting drained by the foxes she is still extremely strong. Moriane on the other hand has almost no strength now and she too had no small strength in the OP.

[WhiskyJack]

According to RJ, men have several levels on top of women (strength in power). Lanfear simply could not have matched Aginor in raw strength. Ofcourse it doesn't mean she couldn't have beaten him in fight.

[MasterAblar]

 

 

Grandael: "He very well might be the most powerful of the three, more DANGEROUS than Semirhage" (emphasis added). Book 13, page 39 of the hardcover version.

 

 

And this means what? That his personality is more "dangerous". That he is more POWERFUL tactician? Why is that Demandred never fought LTT? Aginor did. How come he couldn't beat 1 ashaman's and 2 Aes Sedai in link? How come Rahvin and Bel'al had balls to challenge Rand but not Demandred?

 

 

I see you finally understand why Demandred >> Semirhage in a face-to-face one-on-one battle.

 

Semirhage is slighly weaker than Nynaeve, meanwhile Demandred is "almost" as strong as LTT and "almost" LTT's skill level in the Power.

 

For this point, you have to use Grandael's PoV. She is very likely the smartest of the Chosen, even LTT/Rand knew he could never out smart her (he does not give this kind of credit to ANYONE else). Grandael knows the human mind better than probably anyone else ever did = probably the most DANGEROUS of the Chosen.

=/= win against weaker opponent. Ambushes, setting up proper pawns, events to take out the stronger opponent...etc.

 

 

WTF? My point only proved that Demandred is more talk and less show. And that made me understand how dangerous he is? Because he lost against 3 weak channlers in link! Awesome!

 

 

 

Just because you are stronger, more skillfull in the Power (Demandred)

 

LOLOL..Everytime you don't know what toy say, you invent hypothetical situation! Why didn't people then right and left ambush LTT and kill him? I am pretty sure Demandred could have caught Rand way too many time in open combat or even ambushed him. Since we are talking "hypothetical"... In reality he avoids fight because HE SUCKS at fighting. He claimed in tWH that a general and not a soldier and performed weakly against 1 Ashaman and 2 Aes sedai in link, none of them particularly strong in power.

 

 

 

You are becoming a bit hysterical.

 

Mat btw has a similar saying and I assume you think he also sucks at fighting?

 

Demandred being "almost" LTT...I suppose now you think LTT sucks as well?

 

SHOW ME A SINGLE QUOTE THAT SAYS THAT DEMANDRED WAS ALMOST LTT IN FIGHTING? He was almost LTT in skill and achievement and CLOSE IN POWER but not in fighting. Aginor was almost LTT in strength and yet Dashiva was nothing more than a coward. Ishy was LTT's match in power and yet he lost, twice. You are so hungover the idea of raw power that you again and again ignoring the actual fights and keep harping about what someone said and what could have been, NONE OF WHICH CAN BE PROVEN.

 

Of course strength doesn't mean everything, and neither does dexteriousity. You see it with Aginor, who's extremely strong but rather lame compared to others of similar strength when it comes to fighting. Some people are just good at fighting and others are not. And it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the power.

 

However Aginor was never said to be second to LTT in everything, just in the power, which is not the case of Demandred who seems to be second to LTT in everything. The forsaken who are not good in fighting have more or less stayed silent before others, and Demandred seems to think Aginor had no place among the forsaken were it not for his special talents. Demandred has never been silent, and no one has challenged him, so I tend to see him as a very capable fighter.

 

If he hasn't faced Rand yet, it's just because he's smarter than the rest. No use taking such a big risk. In fact Sammael did not attack Rand either, it was Rand who attacked him.

 

 

Point well taken except..Demandred was not mentioned as almost LTT in strength. And as for as skill goes, I doubt it was his fighting skill they were talking about.

 

 

It's the basic theme of story. Strong personalities dominate weak ones. It is not about power. Power was not a big issue in AoL since circles were used for most task. Chosen were not picked for their brute strength. Asmodean is one good example. He has always been portrayed as weakest and yet he gave the best fight! With Forsaken, it's impossible to predict that their standing is based on skill, power or just aggressive behavior. Demandred has tough attitude. Remember Sammael. That guy could shout at anyone. He had fighter instinct but not really a great fighter in actuality. LTT feared Semirhage. By placing himself openly Sammael insured that Rand will attack him. He didn't hide like Demandred. Demandred clearly doesn't believe in taking Rand one to one considering how much he hates Rand. You would think he would have killed Rand the first opportunity he got! Because the man knows that he might get his ass kicked. He will probably never attack Rand unless he fights Rand half dead. He will let "others" deal with him.

 

 

Damn...

 

And yet the top six forsken are the strongest among their respective genders (except for Aginor). Have any of the weaker ones tried to faced down the stronger ones?

Demandred is clearly very close to Rand in strength. How good is he in battle? It's hard to say, we haven't really seen him fight much. Well, actually we haven't seen much period. Which is the thing. He's supposed to be the big player for the shadow in the last book, and I have hard time seeing him being that if he's a lousy fighter.

More than anything it's that Demandred theme is that he's second to LTT in pretty much everything.

 

It was mentioned that if Demandred had found a sangreal he would have attacked Rand long ago. Demandred is a general and a smart guy, and he took calculated risks. Attacking Rand directly is just too great a risk. One thing is for sure: Demandred was never considered a coward, and it was clear that he could defend himself.

 

I recall that Sammael would have won if Moridin hadn't saved Rand. He gave Rand a good run for his monney.

 

I think the standing among the forsaken is based mostly on their overall ability and capacity to survive. In fact I believe that RJ said that those six consistently near the top were those best at survival both politically and physically.

 

I think anyone would be scared of Semirhage.

[MasterAblar]

 

We don't actually how strong all the ashaman are so I wouldn't necessarily say that only Rand, Taim, and Logain are stronger than Nyneave.

 

 

Rand said something about Narishma being one of the "strong" Asha'man and Aes Sedai he is bonded to is stronger than him (as for as I remember). I based my opinion on that. Nynaeve made direct comment about Naeff being weaker than her. We have not seen powerful Ashaman except L/R/T. And it would make sense considering how quickly they were assembled and most probably learned to channel. Nynaeve on the the hand like Rand or Logain is an anomaly and no Aes Sedai right noe comes even close to her strength. No doubt they beat average Aes Sedai in strength.

 

I'm not saying that Flinn or Narishma or any of the ashaman are stronger than Nyneave, just that we know too little of them and who the strongest among them are to be able to say without a doubt that Nyneave is stronger than all except the three previously mentioned.

 

 

That's true. My point was that you cannot arm story on everyone. It has been remarked few times in book that Lanfear was second most powerful forsaken. Now I doubt she was stronger than Aginor but obviously she was considered more deadly so whatever she had, she packed a heavy punch.

 

Remarked by people who knew little more about the forsaken than legends and stories, and who thought women and men had the same strength in the power. Lanfear was among the top forsaken, and the strongest woman, so there was little reason to think that she sas not as strong as Ishamael. Except it's clear that there is a gap between the strongest man and strongest woman. A gap that has to be large enough to make up for the women's ability to link.

[WhiskyJack]

Valid points. Truth be told, we don't known much about Forsaken. Wouldn't surprise me if all male forsaken were very close to LTT in strength. Their strength and ranking are basically reader made. RJ never explicitly mentioned anything and you cannot take book very seriously since Forsaken lie and Randlanders believe anything.

 

Demandred is a general. He will only fight when it is his last resort or when his victory is assured.

[MasterAblar]

According to RJ, men have several levels on top of women (strength in power). Lanfear simply could not have matched Aginor in raw strength. Ofcourse it doesn't mean she couldn't have beaten him in fight.

 

So how strong do you think Lanfear is compared to the male forsaken. Equal to about who for example? I know stength doesn't mean everything of course, but the fact that Rand could have beaten her despite the fact that he was still a ways away from his full potential seems to indicate that in certain instances, it's rather important.

[WhiskyJack]

 

We don't actually how strong all the ashaman are so I wouldn't necessarily say that only Rand, Taim, and Logain are stronger than Nyneave.

 

 

Rand said something about Narishma being one of the "strong" Asha'man and Aes Sedai he is bonded to is stronger than him (as for as I remember). I based my opinion on that. Nynaeve made direct comment about Naeff being weaker than her. We have not seen powerful Ashaman except L/R/T. And it would make sense considering how quickly they were assembled and most probably learned to channel. Nynaeve on the the hand like Rand or Logain is an anomaly and no Aes Sedai right noe comes even close to her strength. No doubt they beat average Aes Sedai in strength.

 

I'm not saying that Flinn or Narishma or any of the ashaman are stronger than Nyneave, just that we know too little of them and who the strongest among them are to be able to say without a doubt that Nyneave is stronger than all except the three previously mentioned.

 

 

That's true. My point was that you cannot arm story on everyone. It has been remarked few times in book that Lanfear was second most powerful forsaken. Now I doubt she was stronger than Aginor but obviously she was considered more deadly so whatever she had, she packed a heavy punch.

 

Remarked by people who knew little more about the forsaken than legends and stories, and who thought women and men had the same strength in the power. Lanfear was among the top forsaken, and the strongest woman, so there was little reason to think that she sas not as strong as Ishamael. Except it's clear that there is a gap between the strongest man and strongest woman. A gap that has to be large enough to make up for the women's ability to link.

 

 

Creator has spoken:

 

Men can be much stronger than women in the pure quantity of the Power that they can channel, but on a practical level, women are much more deft in their weaving and that means the strongest possible woman can do just about anything that the strongest possible man could, and to the same degree.

 

Regarding the levels of male strength, while the weakest man and the weakest woman would be roughly equivalent, you might say that there are several levels of male strength on top of the female levels. Remember to integrate this with what I've said elsewhere about effectiveness, though.

[MasterAblar]

Valid points. Truth be told, we don't known much about Forsaken. Wouldn't surprise me if all male forsaken were very close to LTT in strength. Their strength and ranking are basically reader made. RJ never explicitly mentioned anything and you cannot take book very seriously since Forsaken lie and Randlanders believe anything.

 

Demandred is a general. He will only fight when it is his last resort or when his victory is assured.

 

As he should I believe. And Mat would probably agree.

 

It's true that it's strange that the forsaken aren't very near in strength among their respective genders. After all in the AoL there must have been hundreds of millions of channelers and surely many turned to the shadow. How could there come to be such a gap between Ishamael and Asmodean?

[XXX]

I believe Lanfear was second behind Ishy...if Rand/Ishy are at 24 and Lanfear was 21 then I believe Aginor was only either 21 or lower.

[WhiskyJack]

According to RJ, men have several levels on top of women (strength in power). Lanfear simply could not have matched Aginor in raw strength. Ofcourse it doesn't mean she couldn't have beaten him in fight.

 

So how strong do you think Lanfear is compared to the male forsaken. Equal to about who for example? I know stength doesn't mean everything of course, but the fact that

 

Hard to say..Probably strong enough to be stronger than weakest male forsaken (Asmo, Be'la or Balthamel..).

 

Rand could have beaten her despite the fact that he was still a ways away from his full potential seems to indicate that in certain instances, it's rather important.

 

Not Rand, LTT. The difference is profound..and Rand being way way weaker and probably not matching the angreal Lanfear was carrying meant that he was channeling less power than her.

[MasterAblar]

 

We don't actually how strong all the ashaman are so I wouldn't necessarily say that only Rand, Taim, and Logain are stronger than Nyneave.

 

 

Rand said something about Narishma being one of the "strong" Asha'man and Aes Sedai he is bonded to is stronger than him (as for as I remember). I based my opinion on that. Nynaeve made direct comment about Naeff being weaker than her. We have not seen powerful Ashaman except L/R/T. And it would make sense considering how quickly they were assembled and most probably learned to channel. Nynaeve on the the hand like Rand or Logain is an anomaly and no Aes Sedai right noe comes even close to her strength. No doubt they beat average Aes Sedai in strength.

 

I'm not saying that Flinn or Narishma or any of the ashaman are stronger than Nyneave, just that we know too little of them and who the strongest among them are to be able to say without a doubt that Nyneave is stronger than all except the three previously mentioned.

 

 

That's true. My point was that you cannot arm story on everyone. It has been remarked few times in book that Lanfear was second most powerful forsaken. Now I doubt she was stronger than Aginor but obviously she was considered more deadly so whatever she had, she packed a heavy punch.

 

Remarked by people who knew little more about the forsaken than legends and stories, and who thought women and men had the same strength in the power. Lanfear was among the top forsaken, and the strongest woman, so there was little reason to think that she sas not as strong as Ishamael. Except it's clear that there is a gap between the strongest man and strongest woman. A gap that has to be large enough to make up for the women's ability to link.

 

 

Creator has spoken:

 

Men can be much stronger than women in the pure quantity of the Power that they can channel, but on a practical level, women are much more deft in their weaving and that means the strongest possible woman can do just about anything that the strongest possible man could, and to the same degree.

 

Regarding the levels of male strength, while the weakest man and the weakest woman would be roughly equivalent, you might say that there are several levels of male strength on top of the female levels. Remember to integrate this with what I've said elsewhere about effectiveness, though.

 

Oh I agree that the strongest woman and strongest man have equal overall ability, even if they're not proficient in the same areas, I'm just saying that the gap in strength has to be great enough to make up for the gap in dexterity, and part of that dexterity is the ability to form circles.

[WhiskyJack]

Valid points. Truth be told, we don't known much about Forsaken. Wouldn't surprise me if all male forsaken were very close to LTT in strength. Their strength and ranking are basically reader made. RJ never explicitly mentioned anything and you cannot take book very seriously since Forsaken lie and Randlanders believe anything.

 

Demandred is a general. He will only fight when it is his last resort or when his victory is assured.

 

As he should I believe. And Mat would probably agree.

 

It's true that it's strange that the forsaken aren't very near in strength among their respective genders. After all in the AoL there must have been hundreds of millions of channelers and surely many turned to the shadow. How could there come to be such a gap between Ishamael and Asmodean?

 

Because Forsaken were leading the massive shadow armies/ running spy network/ running covert ops....They were not leading armies and showing their mettle in battle. It's only Randladers who hyped them to be such dreaded 50 feet monster who could kill you by just looking at you..What the hell you would do with strength? Aginor contributed more to shadow than anything Ishamel in War of Shadow. Most forsaken were rather useless. Probably the dead ones fought most battles..We do have 16 (?) missing forsaken..

[MasterAblar]

According to RJ, men have several levels on top of women (strength in power). Lanfear simply could not have matched Aginor in raw strength. Ofcourse it doesn't mean she couldn't have beaten him in fight.

 

So how strong do you think Lanfear is compared to the male forsaken. Equal to about who for example? I know stength doesn't mean everything of course, but the fact that

 

Hard to say..Probably strong enough to be stronger than weakest male forsaken (Asmo, Be'la or Balthamel..).

 

Rand could have beaten her despite the fact that he was still a ways away from his full potential seems to indicate that in certain instances, it's rather important.

 

Not Rand, LTT. The difference is profound..and Rand being way way weaker and probably not matching the angreal Lanfear was carrying meant that he was channeling less power than her.

 

And yet how could LTT be more dexterious than Lanfear or more skilled or have more knowledge? They shared the last two and the former is at Lanfear's advantage. LTT having control wouldn't have given Rand more strength, just knowlegdge, skill, experience, etc... All things that Lanfear has in equal amounts. So Rand must have been stronger than Lanfear then. I don't think Lanfear had the angreal until the end of the fight when she got up on the wagon.

 

And if Rand is stronger than her then, and he was only as strong as Asmodean at the end of tSR, just one book before he fought Lanfear, then I have a hard time seeing her as stronger than Asmodean. About equal I'd say. Which isn't to say she could wipe the floor with Asmodean of course. It's only a measurement of her brute strength, nothing more.

[WhiskyJack]

 

We don't actually how strong all the ashaman are so I wouldn't necessarily say that only Rand, Taim, and Logain are stronger than Nyneave.

 

 

Rand said something about Narishma being one of the "strong" Asha'man and Aes Sedai he is bonded to is stronger than him (as for as I remember). I based my opinion on that. Nynaeve made direct comment about Naeff being weaker than her. We have not seen powerful Ashaman except L/R/T. And it would make sense considering how quickly they were assembled and most probably learned to channel. Nynaeve on the the hand like Rand or Logain is an anomaly and no Aes Sedai right noe comes even close to her strength. No doubt they beat average Aes Sedai in strength.

 

I'm not saying that Flinn or Narishma or any of the ashaman are stronger than Nyneave, just that we know too little of them and who the strongest among them are to be able to say without a doubt that Nyneave is stronger than all except the three previously mentioned.

 

 

That's true. My point was that you cannot arm story on everyone. It has been remarked few times in book that Lanfear was second most powerful forsaken. Now I doubt she was stronger than Aginor but obviously she was considered more deadly so whatever she had, she packed a heavy punch.

 

Remarked by people who knew little more about the forsaken than legends and stories, and who thought women and men had the same strength in the power. Lanfear was among the top forsaken, and the strongest woman, so there was little reason to think that she sas not as strong as Ishamael. Except it's clear that there is a gap between the strongest man and strongest woman. A gap that has to be large enough to make up for the women's ability to link.

 

 

Creator has spoken:

 

Men can be much stronger than women in the pure quantity of the Power that they can channel, but on a practical level, women are much more deft in their weaving and that means the strongest possible woman can do just about anything that the strongest possible man could, and to the same degree.

 

Regarding the levels of male strength, while the weakest man and the weakest woman would be roughly equivalent, you might say that there are several levels of male strength on top of the female levels. Remember to integrate this with what I've said elsewhere about effectiveness, though.

 

Oh I agree that the strongest woman and strongest man have equal overall ability, even if they're not proficient in the same areas, I'm just saying that the gap in strength has to be great enough to make up for the gap in dexterity, and part of that dexterity is the ability to form circles.

 

 

On an average yes. Gap is huge.

 

When Grandeal first saw Cyndane she claimed that men stronger than her in AoL were uncommon and women very rare (or was it rare). Grandeal, Lanfear, Semirhage are female anomaly. Just because there is level 21 for a woman doesn't mean it's always filled or there are more than handful of women at level 19/20/21...Most women probably never reached even level 18..On the hand there must have quite a lot of men at level 21/22/23...Hence the need for a link..I hope you understand what I saying..A woman couldn't have joined the rank of forsaken if she was not an anomaly..

[MasterAblar]

Valid points. Truth be told, we don't known much about Forsaken. Wouldn't surprise me if all male forsaken were very close to LTT in strength. Their strength and ranking are basically reader made. RJ never explicitly mentioned anything and you cannot take book very seriously since Forsaken lie and Randlanders believe anything.

 

Demandred is a general. He will only fight when it is his last resort or when his victory is assured.

 

As he should I believe. And Mat would probably agree.

 

It's true that it's strange that the forsaken aren't very near in strength among their respective genders. After all in the AoL there must have been hundreds of millions of channelers and surely many turned to the shadow. How could there come to be such a gap between Ishamael and Asmodean?

 

Because Forsaken were leading the massive shadow armies/ running spy network/ running covert ops....They were not leading armies and showing their mettle in battle. It's only Randladers who hyped them to be such dreaded 50 feet monster who could kill you by just looking at you..What the hell you would do with strength? Aginor contributed more to shadow than anything Ishamel in War of Shadow. Most forsaken were rather useless. Probably the dead ones fought most battles..We do have 16 (?) missing forsaken..

 

Well of course most were probably not much, but think of the sheer numbers! In all those millions there wasn't anyone more capable than Asmodean. Strength isn't everything but you don't see any Sorileas among the forsaken. They're all very strong. But could the weakest not be even stronger with all candidates there were. And strength does help, otherwise the forsaken wouldn't be so strong, and the top 6 wouldn't be almost solely the strongest of all.

[WhiskyJack]

According to RJ, men have several levels on top of women (strength in power). Lanfear simply could not have matched Aginor in raw strength. Ofcourse it doesn't mean she couldn't have beaten him in fight.

 

So how strong do you think Lanfear is compared to the male forsaken. Equal to about who for example? I know stength doesn't mean everything of course, but the fact that

 

Hard to say..Probably strong enough to be stronger than weakest male forsaken (Asmo, Be'la or Balthamel..).

 

Rand could have beaten her despite the fact that he was still a ways away from his full potential seems to indicate that in certain instances, it's rather important.

 

Not Rand, LTT. The difference is profound..and Rand being way way weaker and probably not matching the angreal Lanfear was carrying meant that he was channeling less power than her.

 

And yet how could LTT be more dexterious than Lanfear or more skilled or have more knowledge? They shared the last two and the former is at Lanfear's advantage. LTT having control wouldn't have given Rand more strength, just knowlegdge, skill, experience, etc... All things that Lanfear has in equal amounts. So Rand must have been stronger than Lanfear then. I don't think Lanfear had the angreal until the end of the fight when she got up on the wagon.

 

And if Rand is stronger than her then, and he was only as strong as Asmodean at the end of tSR, just one book before he fought Lanfear, then I have a hard time seeing her as stronger than Asmodean. About equal I'd say. Which isn't to say she could wipe the floor with Asmodean of course. It's only a measurement of her brute strength, nothing more.

 

 

I don't understand. Share what? Why is Nynaeve better at healing. Why isn't Rand? I am not sure what you are saying but I don't think it's something you can learn. Some people are just better at something. Rand is LTT! He posses the same skill as LTT and no, Lanfear doesn't have the same skill. Doesn't matter how much one practices, there is only this much improvement you will ever make. And she had angreal...I could look for the exact line in the book..not now though...Probably she knew Rand had a angreal and didn't want to challenge directly..And even if they were equally matched, winner had to be more skillful! Look how that 14 year Sea Folk girl Talan owned Nynaeve even though she probably was weaker than Nyn in strength (she had potential to surpass Nyn)..

[MasterAblar]

 

We don't actually how strong all the ashaman are so I wouldn't necessarily say that only Rand, Taim, and Logain are stronger than Nyneave.

 

 

Rand said something about Narishma being one of the "strong" Asha'man and Aes Sedai he is bonded to is stronger than him (as for as I remember). I based my opinion on that. Nynaeve made direct comment about Naeff being weaker than her. We have not seen powerful Ashaman except L/R/T. And it would make sense considering how quickly they were assembled and most probably learned to channel. Nynaeve on the the hand like Rand or Logain is an anomaly and no Aes Sedai right noe comes even close to her strength. No doubt they beat average Aes Sedai in strength.

 

I'm not saying that Flinn or Narishma or any of the ashaman are stronger than Nyneave, just that we know too little of them and who the strongest among them are to be able to say without a doubt that Nyneave is stronger than all except the three previously mentioned.

 

 

That's true. My point was that you cannot arm story on everyone. It has been remarked few times in book that Lanfear was second most powerful forsaken. Now I doubt she was stronger than Aginor but obviously she was considered more deadly so whatever she had, she packed a heavy punch.

 

Remarked by people who knew little more about the forsaken than legends and stories, and who thought women and men had the same strength in the power. Lanfear was among the top forsaken, and the strongest woman, so there was little reason to think that she sas not as strong as Ishamael. Except it's clear that there is a gap between the strongest man and strongest woman. A gap that has to be large enough to make up for the women's ability to link.

 

 

Creator has spoken:

 

Men can be much stronger than women in the pure quantity of the Power that they can channel, but on a practical level, women are much more deft in their weaving and that means the strongest possible woman can do just about anything that the strongest possible man could, and to the same degree.

 

Regarding the levels of male strength, while the weakest man and the weakest woman would be roughly equivalent, you might say that there are several levels of male strength on top of the female levels. Remember to integrate this with what I've said elsewhere about effectiveness, though.

 

Oh I agree that the strongest woman and strongest man have equal overall ability, even if they're not proficient in the same areas, I'm just saying that the gap in strength has to be great enough to make up for the gap in dexterity, and part of that dexterity is the ability to form circles.

 

 

On an average yes. Gap is huge.

 

When Grandeal first saw Cyndane she claimed that men stronger than her in AoL were uncommon and women very rare (or was it rare). Grandeal, Lanfear, Semirhage are female anomaly. Just because there is level 21 for a woman doesn't mean it's always filled or there are more than handful of women at level 19/20/21...Most women probably never reached even level 18..On the hand there must have quite a lot of men at level 21/22/23...Hence the need for a link..I hope you understand what I saying..A woman couldn't have joined the rank of forsaken if she was not an anomaly..

 

I think the exact phrase was "quite rare indeed", but that's just by memory.

 

They are anomalies, just as Ishammael, Demandred, Aginor are anomalies, but if you take a large enough amount I would expect to have quite a few anomalies.

 

I don't know that a woman would have to be an anomaly to join the ranks of the forsaken. Unless strength was something looked for in the forsake, in which case yes the men would be favorised. Which is quite possible when you see that the male forsaken outnumber the female 8 to 3.

[WhiskyJack]

Valid points. Truth be told, we don't known much about Forsaken. Wouldn't surprise me if all male forsaken were very close to LTT in strength. Their strength and ranking are basically reader made. RJ never explicitly mentioned anything and you cannot take book very seriously since Forsaken lie and Randlanders believe anything.

 

Demandred is a general. He will only fight when it is his last resort or when his victory is assured.

 

As he should I believe. And Mat would probably agree.

 

It's true that it's strange that the forsaken aren't very near in strength among their respective genders. After all in the AoL there must have been hundreds of millions of channelers and surely many turned to the shadow. How could there come to be such a gap between Ishamael and Asmodean?

 

Because Forsaken were leading the massive shadow armies/ running spy network/ running covert ops....They were not leading armies and showing their mettle in battle. It's only Randladers who hyped them to be such dreaded 50 feet monster who could kill you by just looking at you..What the hell you would do with strength? Aginor contributed more to shadow than anything Ishamel in War of Shadow. Most forsaken were rather useless. Probably the dead ones fought most battles..We do have 16 (?) missing forsaken..

 

Well of course most were probably not much, but think of the sheer numbers! In all those millions there wasn't anyone more capable than Asmodean. Strength isn't everything but you don't see any Sorileas among the forsaken. They're all very strong. But could the weakest not be even stronger with all candidates there were. And strength does help, otherwise the forsaken wouldn't be so strong, and the top 6 wouldn't be almost solely the strongest of all.

 

 

I don't believe "strong" went to Shadow because they were needed or anything. They went to shadow because they were strong. Strong are easily corrupted by allure of power. Ishy..crazy. Lanfear..messed up due to LTT and failure in personal life, Demandred/Sammael/Bel'al..hated Dragon, Messana wanted revenge and so did Asmo....Power corrupts people. Ofcourse many strong channelers rose in rank based on what they could do or who could they kill...But I am sure most of actual war was fought by DF/Shadowspawn/Dreadlords..