Timelines in ToM

[Sharaman]

I tried reconciling the timelines in ToM by using VoG as the key marker.

It occurs across several TLs.

Rand's timeline reconciles with Perrin, Egwene, and Nyn, satisfactorily using this marker.

Elayne's TL sort of reconciles.

 

Mat's TL does not reconcile, there are very serious problems until the ToG sequence.

Even there. we know when he went in, we don't know for sure, when he came out.

 

Avi's TL is also not easy though we have a reference to Semirhage's death in TGS.

Lan is almost completely out of the loop -- we know when Nyn gets the bond but Lan's TL doesn't have hard numbers.

The BT TL is very hard to reconcile, if at all possible.

In the cases of Avi, Lan and BT, there's enough fudge factor to make them reconcile.

 

What does Brandon do with Mat? Cross his fingers and rattle on?

[herid]

I've complained about it enough already so I'm not sure I should start on another one but here goes.

 

The easiest problem to spot is when Rand sees Mat in a vision riding through Caemlyn shortly after Rand first gets to Bandar Eban (tGS, Ch 31). This puts the event after Mat-Verin meeting and easily 10+ days before Verin dies in the tower (see my link above for the calculation) and 14+ days (likely longer) before Rand shows up on Egwene's doorstep. Given that Mat left for TG about a month after that (around the time of the Field of Merrilor meeting) that easily puts 40+ days that Mat waited before doing so while he said several times that he was going to go as soon as his oath to Verin would let him (and BS confirmed that in interviews).

 

Also, I don't see any possible way for Verin to survive for 10 days after leaving Mat. Her oath to the DO wouldn't let her. She made Mat promise not to open the letter for 10 days. After that all bets are off.

 

Some guy told me on twitter that BS said somewhere that there is at least one incorrect time marker in tGS. However, when I asked BS about timeline issues myself he claimed that there aren't any mistakes in ToM. he didn't mention tGS so I'm not sure how to take this since the timelines in these two books are so interwoven:

 

BrandSanderson

@heridfan So far as I know, there are no timestamp errors in TofM. I have a solid timeline from people better at such things than I.

But clearly he is not a timeline guy himself so this statement should be taken with a grain of salt. The fact that he trusts his timeline people doesn't mean they are right.

 

As for Avi's timeline, we know that she the clouds broke over Rhuidean some time during her second pass through the columns.

 

Aviendha's foot hit the flagstones. Around her, the forest of glass columns shimmered with prismatic color. It was like standing in the middle of an Illuminator's firework. The sun was high in the sky, cloud cover remarkably gone.

-ToM, Ch 48

This pegs it to VoG. It took her a few more days to finish her trip through the columns. She then said that she wanted to contemplate on what to do before going back to the Wise Ones. she must have done a LOT of contemplating. There has been no whiff of her seen anywhere after that which is 20+ days. This is pretty strange. I wonder what she could possibly be up to.

[Agitel]

Given what was said above, Rand's vision of Mat must be the wrong timeline marker. That would smooth it over, right?

[Sharaman]

The clouds breaking over Caemlyn are also a wrong time marker or at least inconsistent, with VoG.

That's why Avi's timeline market with the clouds is also suspect.

The other thing is, given Elayne and Avi are linked to Rand, they should feel some sort of change in the bond when he undergoes the VoG experience. (Ditto Min and Alanna). He's not trying to mask at that stage, given the description in TGS.

 

Even ignoring Rand's vision of Mat in Caemlyn, the Mat timeline has problems, given the length of time he apparently waits in Caemlyn.

 

 

With reference to Verin's oath to the DO: We don't know how she personally views the "10 Days" deadline. It's self-imposed. If she doesn't think she's breaking the oath, she wouldn't necessarily die within 10 Days.

Look at it this way:

She hands the letter over to Mat. She cannot tell him her info directly because that would (in her view) violate the oath. However, she has no means of knowing if he will open the letter the instant she is out of his sight. She assumes, given what she writes, that he won't wait out the deadline. So, would she die within the hour of whenever she thinks Mat opens the letter? Apparently not since she would then be dead, with an hour of whenever she thinks about it. So, it's more on the lines of what she doesn't know (that is, when/if Mat will open the letter) cannot violate her oath.

 

The real problem in TL terms is, Verin expects to be back within a day or two max to release Mat from the letter-oath, as she writes to him.

That implies, V's off to Tar Valon immediately, to try and find the rod, etc.

We know that she meets Egwene in the WT, at VoG minus two/three or so. Is that her only visit to the WT?

It's implied at least in that TGS scene - I don't have the book.

If so, it should occur quite soon after she drops Mat in Caemlyn.

But it doesn't.

The time interval (many days) between Verin's visit to WI and her prior handing over the letter to Mat, cannot be reconciled with Mat having waited in Caemlyn for weeks, by the time VoG happens.

The length of Mat's wait is clear enough, when we reconcile Mat's PoV and his meeting with Elayne, and Elayne's dream message from Egwene, regarding the end of Mesaana.

To try and reconcile this, you'd have to assume Verin went several times to TV and failed to get hold of the rod before she decided to play her bushido endgame.

Maybe possible but it seems like a weak retcon.

 

BTW, it is barely possible that Avi runs into the Shaido WOs who are heading to Rhuidean to give permission to Bendhuin? Or, she ran into Therava's lot.

[herid]

Given what was said above, Rand's vision of Mat must be the wrong timeline marker. That would smooth it over, right?

not really, there are a number of other problems even if we move this time marker. It's also not clear where exactly it should be moved. problems seem to arise either way. see the link in my first post where I discuss some of those issues.

 

The clouds breaking over Caemlyn are also a wrong time marker or at least inconsistent, with VoG.

 

I was simply stating the most glaring case which is also the easiest one to describe. yes, there are other issues including the timing of the clouds breaking over Caemlyn. They actually seem to break twice! once in in ToM Ch 8 and then some time after the Dragon test. The first is most likely an incorrect time marker according to what BS said later on twitter. I forgot to include that in the quote above.

 

heridfan

@BrandSanderson I don't mean Tam issue. there are for example clouds breaking in Caemlyn in Ch 8, way before Rand's epiphany on Dragonmount

 

BrandSanderson

@heridfan That's a good note. I'll fire that one off to Team Jordan and see if we made an error. Got any others?

 

 

It looks like he also said something about this to terez yesterday when she grilled him on the way to the airport.

 

 

 

That's why Avi's timeline market with the clouds is also suspect.

The other thing is, given Elayne and Avi are linked to Rand, they should feel some sort of change in the bond when he undergoes the VoG experience. (Ditto Min and Alanna). He's not trying to mask at that stage, given the description in TGS.

yes, they should. But for Avi this happens apparently while she is inside the pillars in Rhuidean and for Elayne it happens some time offscreen. Some time shortly after the Dragon test. When she talks to Gawyn it's mentioned that both events happened about one week earlier.

 

Gawyn smiled, breathing in the scents of roses and mud around the pond. The scents of life. He glanced up at the sky as they walked. "I can't believe how much sunlight we've been seeing here. I'd nearly convinced myself that the perpetual gloom was something unnatural."

"Oh, it probably is," she said nonchalantly. "A week back the cloud cover in Andor broke around Caemlyn, but nowhere else."

"But . . . how?"

She smiled. "Rand. Something he did. He was atop Dragonmount, I think and then..."

 

....

 

Though Gawyn had heard a curious story of Elayne having been carried up on the city wall in her bed a week or so back.

-ToM, Ch 33

This is mentioned again in Ch 45

Morning light peeked through the drapes. Elayne sat back, feeling the powerful warmth through the bond with Rand that had appeared there. Light, but that was a wonderful sensation. The moment she'd begun feeling it, the cloud cover around Andor had broken.

It had been about a week since the testing of the dragons, and she'd put all of the bellfounders in her nation to work on creating them.

-ToM, Ch 45

 

Even ignoring Rand's vision of Mat in Caemlyn, the Mat timeline has problems, given the length of time he apparently waits in Caemlyn.

yes, I agree. I discuss this at length in the link above.

 

 

With reference to Verin's oath to the DO: We don't know how she personally views the "10 Days" deadline. It's self-imposed. If she doesn't think she's breaking the oath, she wouldn't necessarily die within 10 Days.

Look at it this way:

She hands the letter over to Mat. She cannot tell him her info directly because that would (in her view) violate the oath. However, she has no means of knowing if he will open the letter the instant she is out of his sight. She assumes, given what she writes, that he won't wait out the deadline. So, would she die within the hour of whenever she thinks Mat opens the letter? Apparently not since she would then be dead, with an hour of whenever she thinks about it. So, it's more on the lines of what she doesn't know (that is, when/if Mat will open the letter) cannot violate her oath.

 

The real problem in TL terms is, Verin expects to be back within a day or two max to release Mat from the letter-oath, as she writes to him.

I agree that she is supposed to be back in one or two days. I was simply searching for possible alternatives because I see no way to reconcile the timeline otherwise. She even mentions in the letter that she expected Mat to open the letter only after a few days. I don't see how that can be reconciled with her oath to the DO if she stayed alive for a long time after leaving Mat. definitely not longer than 10 days which is an absolute max IMO. I'm not sure what you mean about the 10 day deadline being self-imposed. She made Mat promise not to open the letter for 10 days. after that he might open it at any moment. She knows it (she even expects him to do so sooner). Her oath to the DO requires her to keep his secrets until the hour of her death and that oath is very binding. I don't see any mental tricks which would allow her to circumvent this.

That implies, V's off to Tar Valon immediately, to try and find the rod, etc.

We know that she meets Egwene in the WT, at VoG minus two/three or so. Is that her only visit to the WT?

It's implied at least in that TGS scene - I don't have the book.

yes, it's implied in the scene although it's not stated definitively. But it's hard to imagine Saerin and co holding on to the rod for days. It would get noticed. They only take it for short time intervals. They mention this when they first meet Egwene. Plus they had no need to keep it for long. They were not testing any Aes Sedai at the time for being Black and they only took it that day to test Nicola.

If so, it should occur quite soon after she drops Mat in Caemlyn.

But it doesn't.

Yes, I agree and I don't know how this can possibly be fixed. That's why I first thought that the clouds breaking over Caemlyn in ToM, Ch 8 is correct. This would agree with the event happening only a few days after Mat-Verin meeting. But it's clear from later chapters that this is not the case.

The time interval (many days) between Verin's visit to WI and her prior handing over the letter to Mat, cannot be reconciled with Mat having waited in Caemlyn for weeks, by the time VoG happens.

The length of Mat's wait is clear enough, when we reconcile Mat's PoV and his meeting with Elayne, and Elayne's dream message from Egwene, regarding the end of Mesaana.

To try and reconcile this, you'd have to assume Verin went several times to TV and failed to get hold of the rod before she decided to play her bushido endgame.

Maybe possible but it seems like a weak retcon.

 

BTW, it is barely possible that Avi runs into the Shaido WOs who are heading to Rhuidean to give permission to Bendhuin? Or, she ran into Therava's lot.

[Sharaman]

Like other OR oaths, a lot depends on the interpretation. In that sense it's-self imposed like the AS oath against speaking untrue words. If Verin doesn't think she's broken the exact terms of the oath, she hasn't.

 

IIRC correctly, Verin tells Mat to either open the letter in 10 Days and do what it says.

Or not to open it at all, but stick around in Caemlyn for 30 days.

She doesn't know if he will open the letter, though she guesses he will.

That (quantum ) uncertainty is enough for her to sidestep the "hour of her death" oath in the action of simply giving him the letter.

 

So, after this, Verin is in the clear so far as Mat is concerned.

As far as she is concerned, he may have opened the letter or not - but since she doesn't know, it isn't a betrayal.

She needs to suicide only when she decides to speak to Egwene when she clearly feels she is breaking the oath unless it's in the hour of her death.

[herid]

Like other OR oaths, a lot depends on the interpretation. In that sense it's-self imposed like the AS oath against speaking untrue words. If Verin doesn't think she's broken the exact terms of the oath, she hasn't.

 

IIRC correctly, Verin tells Mat to either open the letter in 10 Days and do what it says.

Or not to open it at all, but stick around in Caemlyn for 30 days.

yes, that's what she did. but IMO her oath to the DO would require her to make sure that she didn't spill his secrets before she died. Taking a chance that it might or might not happen would not be enough IMO. Perhaps I'm wrong but this is one of the things I'd like clarified. I asked terez to ask BS about it and she did but it's not clear yet what the answer was. She may have also paraphrased the question. We'll have to wait and see what the exact answer was.

[mb]

Steven Cooper I guess would update his timeline sometime after the paperback release.

Here is the link to the site:: http://www.stevenac.net/wot/wotchron.htm

[herid]

Steven Cooper I guess would update his timeline sometime after the paperback release.

Here is the link to the site:: http://www.stevenac.net/wot/wotchron.htm

I talked to Steven Cooper recently by email and he has as much trouble as we do with the tGS/ToM timeline. here is a quote from his email:

 

Hi,

 

Thanks for your comments about the website. I don't know whether it

will get updated for TOM, though -- at least, not before the final

book comes out next year and hopefully clears things up. Back in

December and January I spent quite some time trying to fit TOM into

the chronology, without much success. There were multiple instances

where chronological references in TOM just couldn't be made to fit the

existing timeline (I seem to remember Mat's plot thread was the most

troublesome). Also, reports from book signings brought several

statements from Brandon Sanderson that added even more confusion.

Frankly, I doubt it's possible to fit TOM into the chronology without

making the assumption that some of the time references in the book are

simply wrong.

....

 

I must admit that, when I got to the last page of TGS and Egwene said

to Silviana, "Mark this day on the calendars," I was thinking it would

have saved me a lot of trouble if she'd only gone on to mention what

bloody day it was...