Twitter Conversation With Brandon on Sexuality and Gender in the Wheel

[DocBean]

Brandon: Ha. Well (though I'm on your side) it could be argued that's a marketing decision.

Terez: LOL. Many things could be argued. Some arguments are more logical than others, though. :)

 

[Luckers: Removed. Attacking the person, not the argument]

 

Remember these books started in the 80s, the world was much different 30 years ago then it is today.

There is no possible way that a marketing department would allow homosexuality in a fantasy series targeted at 12-16 year old boys.

You have to realize what the target audience is, and what the expectations of that audience is.

It's fantasy, of course there are going to be naked women.

 

We've come a long way in the last 20-30 years, and I while there is still a long road to walk, I don't think Jordan was intentionally

leaving out anything for LGBT readers so much as he was focusing on giving the target audience what they wanted.

 

 

...but what was even the point of making men stronger in the Power than women in the first place?...The surrender/control thing is kinda offensive. It's not so major that we can't overlook it (obviously), but still...

 

Men are stronger then women, women use sexuality over men.

Why is it necessary to create a magic system that negates the biological advantage men have over women?

You could even argue that Jordan did give women an unfair advantage:

Male channelers are stronger, yet feared and hunted, while women channelers use brute force to control thrones.

Where is the inequality in Jordan's magic system?

 

As for the surrender/control thing, my advice is turn your channel to Animal Planet and see how some wild animals mate.

After you've done that, then tell us how Jordan's biological explanation of grasping the source is unnatural and offensive.

[DocBean]

Brandon: Ha. Well (though I'm on your side) it could be argued that's a marketing decision.

Terez: LOL. Many things could be argued. Some arguments are more logical than others, though. :)

 

[Luckers: Removed. Attacking the person, not the argument]

 

 

My intention was not to attack Terez as a person, but to question her tact. I stand by my comment that her reply to Brandon was rude.

He's offering a very plausible explanation, and she insinuated that he was being illogical.

 

Seemed rude to me.

[Terez]

Curiously, though, RJ has created a world with the opposite--perhaps not hetero, but definately a sense of female biased cultural norm.

Agreed, which is a separate issue for the most part (and it has been addressed multiple times throughout the debate).

 

As for the surrender/control thing, my advice is turn your channel to Animal Planet and see how some wild animals mate.

Like black widows? :)

[Luckers]

See, phrased that way, I allow. However, I do disagree with your premise--I don't think Terez was seeking to imply Brandon was being illogical, but rather that her comment was more generalized as to the nature of such debates. Remember twitter is not as threaded as it appears here.

[Terez]

Yeah, I wasn't saying that Brandon is an illogical person. He often plays devil's advocate. A good recent example is the debate about whether or not Rand channeled on the Spray outside Shadar Logoth. Brandon took up the unconventional argument in that case, and I said pretty much the same thing to him then. When Brandon believes something, he usually doesn't hesitate to say so, but in this case, he said 'it could be argued that...' Totes different thing.

 

That being said, I wouldn't hesitate to tell Brandon if I thought he was being illogical. He knows that, and I think that's part of why he seems to like me.

[DocBean]

Like black widows? :)

 

touché

[David Selig]

 

As for the surrender/control thing, my advice is turn your channel to Animal Planet and see how some wild animals mate.

Like black widows? :)

 

Beat me to the punch. I was going to say praying mantis. ;)

 

Anyway, I still don't get why men being physically stronger justified making men being stronger in the Power, and some of you even acting like anything else would've been ridiculous. Those are unrelated things, it's magic, RJ could've reversed, or made the genders equal, and nobody could've said it's against biological laws. But it's going in circles and the original topic was different, so I am done with this for now.

[Luckers]

Anyway, I still don't get why men being physically stronger justified making men being stronger in the Power, and some of you even acting like anything else would've been ridiculous. Those are unrelated things, it's magic, RJ could've reversed, or made the genders equal, and nobody could've said it's against biological laws. But it's going in circles and the original topic was different, so I am done with this for now

 

It doesn't 'justify' it, nor are we acting like anything else would have been rediculous. Let me ask you this--is there a reason why strength in the power couldn't parallel physical strength? Why RJ should have had a reason not to choose to portray it so?

[Terez]

As for the surrender/control thing, my advice is turn your channel to Animal Planet and see how some wild animals mate.

Like black widows? :)

Beat me to the punch. I was going to say praying mantis. ;)

I was going to say that too, but I couldn't think of the name of the damn bug. Just had the image of it in my head. Then there is the poor angler fish...

 

[Barid Bel Medar]

hahaha, awesome post Terez.

 

Thats quite.... crazy.

 

You learn something new every day.

[Luckers]

You know, it's times like this I feel sorry for you breeders.

[MasterAblar]

 

As for the surrender/control thing, my advice is turn your channel to Animal Planet and see how some wild animals mate.

Like black widows? :)

 

Beat me to the punch. I was going to say praying mantis. ;)

 

Anyway, I still don't get why men being physically stronger justified making men being stronger in the Power, and some of you even acting like anything else would've been ridiculous. Those are unrelated things, it's magic, RJ could've reversed, or made the genders equal, and nobody could've said it's against biological laws. But it's going in circles and the original topic was different, so I am done with this for now.

 

It's not just the biological laws in my opinion. It's also to do with the soul. Channeling is related to the soul and so is gender. If you have a man's soul you will be a man(Arangar is the DO messing things up). Physical stength is generally greater in men and gender is determined by the soul. So the soul seems to be the what everything follows whether physical or spiritual. Does that make any kind of sense? Feel free to say no as I'm honestly not sure myself.

[Terez]

It's easy to see RJ's mind following that reasoning, but it doesn't change the fact that it was essentially unnecessary.

[Luckers]

It's easy to see RJ's mind following that reasoning, but it doesn't change the fact that it was essentially unnecessary.

 

Lack of necessity is hardly an argument for its exclusion--or even for it being wrong to include it.

[MasterAblar]

True, but there are a lot of unecessary things in a story. Details that have no reason to be other than to add depth to a story. The difference between men and women channelers is one. However I think it makes the channeling system more interesting. And wasn't RJ's view sort of like, "perfectly equal but in different ways"? The channeling system would just be following that view.

[Terez]

Perhaps not, but again, it's all these little things stacking up that gives so many readers the impression of sexism in WoT (quite aside from the in-world sexism). Why would RJ choose to make men stronger in the Power? What was the point? He chose to do it, ostensibly for a reason, and that choice shows at least a bit of sexism.

[Hold On To The Night]

Haha, well put Luckers! And interesting information Terez. I...didn't know that.

 

What I really wanted to say was that I agree with Luckers about Rand's early story arc. I did a reread a little while ago and very nearly started crying at the points you quoted. But then I am a girl who cries easily.

 

Oh, and initially I adored the fact that there were same-sex relationships in WoT at all. I hadn't really seen that in very many other works of fiction. But as the world moved forward, I read more and I got further into the books, it really did start to bother me that female homosexuality was described as something that happened between novices bacause there weren't any men available. And that female nudity was a lot more described than male nudity. And that we don't see any gay male characters (Looking forward to whoever it is in aMoL, that will be interesting). It is true that it is "safer" to portray lesbians, at least has been. This has been as much a disadvantege to lesbians as to gay men, I would say, though. We now have some trouble being taken seriously. And a lot of people seem to think we will straighten out as we grow up and find ourselves a man. But then, I have never tried being a gay man, so I really shouldn't make comparisons.

 

And Arrela (if that was her name) was great.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Perhaps not, but again, it's all these little things stacking up that gives so many readers the impression of sexism in WoT (quite aside from the in-world sexism). Why would RJ choose to make men stronger in the Power? What was the point? He chose to do it, ostensibly for a reason, and that choice shows at least a bit of sexism.

 

Gah, I said I wouldnt post, but hey, oh well.

 

I do understand this. And to a point, I agree. It does give the impression of sexism.

 

However, WHY did RJ choose to make men stronger? What was the point?

 

Luckers and I (I believe anyway) are arguing that there was a point. It was based on logical points. Men are physically stronger than women in general. Instead of creating a random system where say, women are stronger, something that has no basis whatsoever, RJ chose to take the logical path and create the connection between Physical Strength = OP strength.

 

It is a perfectly sensible and accurate thing to do, and does not involve sexism. Merely fact.

[David Selig]

It doesn't 'justify' it, nor are we acting like anything else would have been rediculous. Let me ask you this--is there a reason why strength in the power couldn't parallel physical strength? Why RJ should have had a reason not to choose to portray it so?

It could, it's RJ's world after all and he made up the rules. My reasons are twofold - first, channelling, apart from the gender division, has nothing to do with physical strength (the tiny Moiraine was really strong in the Power and countless other examples), so the parallel is somewhat illogical, at least to me. Second is that since the men naturally have the edge in terms of fighting skills with ordinary weapons due to superior physical strength, and you can't get over this unless you decide to ignore biological laws. So it would've been nice if the women had been at least equal when it comes to magic.

[Terez]

We didn't say he should make women stronger (though there's no reason why that wouldn't make sense as there is no logical reason why strength in the Power should correlate with upper body strength), but that there is no reason why he could not have made them equal.

[Luckers]

Perhaps not, but again, it's all these little things stacking up that gives so many readers the impression of sexism in WoT (quite aside from the in-world sexism). Why would RJ choose to make men stronger in the Power? What was the point? He chose to do it, ostensibly for a reason, and that choice shows at least a bit of sexism.

 

Why would RJ choose to make men stronger? Why not? It makes for an interesting discussion between Rand and Asmodean. A misconception by Moiraine, which are always fascinating. But mostly, why not? That choice does not show sexism, it show simply a perception of the differences between male and female strengths. That is the basis of the construction in the story, after all.

[David Selig]

Luckers and I (I believe anyway) are arguing that there was a point. It was based on logical points. Men are physically stronger than women in general. Instead of creating a random system where say, women are stronger, something that has no basis whatsoever, RJ chose to take the logical path and create the connection between Physical Strength = OP strength.

 

It is a perfectly sensible and accurate thing to do, and does not involve sexism. Merely fact.

There's nothing logical about it. Channelling is a mental activity, not connected to physical strength in any way.

[Barid Bel Medar]

We didn't say he should make women stronger (though there's no reason why that wouldn't make sense as there is no logical reason why strength in the Power should correlate with upper body strength), but that there is no reason why he could not have made them equal.

 

Indeed, I agree for the most part.

 

All I am point out is that there is logical reasoning for men being stronger, thats all.

 

He didnt HAVE to do so, but he chose to, and it is perfectly logical/non sexist.

 

In any case, the "he could have done it differently" arguement is really pointless.

 

Indeed he could have.

 

But he could have done anything. He could have made Rand a woman. he oculd have done lots of things. You cant do everything.

 

The point is, he did it one way, a way that is not sexist and perfectly reasonable to do.

 

Edit: Sorry, missed it in the my OP.

 

You are correct, there is no reason why upper body strength need be in correlation with the OP strength. But it doesnt mean it CANT be. I mean, the reasoning that the OP works the same as upper body strenth is reasonable. If its not perfect, theres no reason to say why it cant be releated.

[Luckers]

Luckers and I (I believe anyway) are arguing that there was a point. It was based on logical points. Men are physically stronger than women in general. Instead of creating a random system where say, women are stronger, something that has no basis whatsoever, RJ chose to take the logical path and create the connection between Physical Strength = OP strength.

 

It is a perfectly sensible and accurate thing to do, and does not involve sexism. Merely fact.

 

There's nothing logical about it. Channelling is a mental activity, not connected to physical strength in any way.

 

Which is not to say its not a reasonable parallel for RJ to draw upon in his construction of the metaphysics of the world of the Wheel. You havn't answered my question, by the way: why is it unreasonable for RJ have depicted the One Power so? Yes he could have made women stronger, or made them equal, but why is his choosing to mirror physical strength a sexist choice?

[MasterAblar]

I thought Asmodean made it clear that a woman could do just about anything a man could do with the power and to just about the same extent. Men might be better at some forms of healing(as per Moghedien) and women are no doubt better at other things with the power. However in the grand scheme of things they are equal. No one is above the other. Isn't that why the AoL was so great?