The voice Moridin heard

[OptimusPrime]

The random philosophising may have come from LTT

Ah, but Rand observed that it did not:

Irritably, Rand pushed his sleeves down and dropped into a chair. What he had done made no matter to Logain. The man knew saidin was clean, but he could not believe Rand or any man had actually done the cleansing. Did he think the Creator had decided to stretch out a merciful hand after three thousand years of suffer­ing? The Creator had made the world and then left humankind to make of it what they would, a heaven or the Pit of Doom by their choosing. The Creator had made many worlds, watched each flower or die, and gone on to make endless worlds beyond. A gardener did not weep for each blossom that fell.

 

For an instant, he thought those must have been Lews Therin’s reflections. He had never gone on that way about the Creator or anything else that he recalled. But he could feel Lews Therin nod­ding in approval, a man listening to someone else. Still, it was not the kind of thing he would have considered before Lews Therin. How much space remained between them?

And then of course he went back to assuming that it was Lews Therin because he did not want to consider the alternative. But it was still clearly Moridin's influence.

I fail to see why it is "clearly" Moridin's influence. Moridin is a possibility, but not even the most likely one. Do we have any reason to believe that it was not Rand? No, not really.

You mean other than the fact that Rand himself said he would have never considered it? That should be enough for most people.

 

I agree, I think the only influence on Rands thoughts were Moridin and Lews Therin and I find it very hard to believe Lews Therin would have thought something like that.

 

Well it seems like I wasnt considering all the details in the Moridin hearing Lews Therin theory, as that meeting with Graendal happened before VoG. So either hes been hearing the voice before then or not at all and it really was the Dark One. Probably the latter. That or he was seeing Rands face

 

Thanks all!

[threadnecromancer]

I like the idea of Moridin hearing his past self (although I think that the Dark One or Shaidar Haran is more likely)perhaps Tedronai in a past life was Gilgamesh? "Its always been a city of importance... the city was here long ago. Aren Deshar, Aren Mador, Far Madding. Always a thorn in our side, Aren Deshar was. The last enclave of the Incastar- those afraid of progress, afraid of wonder. Turns out they had a right to be afraid. How I wish I had listened to Gilgame..." The references to the Incastar and them being afraid of progress (not to mention being driven to a last refuge) does not really jive with what we know of the War of Power, so it could be from the previous age, but on the same page Rand says that he is only four hundred or so years old. I suppose Rand remembered from Veins of Gold the name of who he was in a past life while Lews Therin could have read some history books and so have some grasp of whoever that person was. Anyway there is no evidence that Ishamael was hearing a past life nor that he is Gilgamesh reborn (or for that matter that Gilgame... might not actually stand for Gilgames the Random) but I have decided to officially adopt it as my new crack-pot theory now that I have decided to drop my Cyndane is Ilyena hypothesis.

[Mr Ares]

The random philosophising may have come from LTT

Ah, but Rand observed that it did not:

Irritably, Rand pushed his sleeves down and dropped into a chair. What he had done made no matter to Logain. The man knew saidin was clean, but he could not believe Rand or any man had actually done the cleansing. Did he think the Creator had decided to stretch out a merciful hand after three thousand years of suffer­ing? The Creator had made the world and then left humankind to make of it what they would, a heaven or the Pit of Doom by their choosing. The Creator had made many worlds, watched each flower or die, and gone on to make endless worlds beyond. A gardener did not weep for each blossom that fell.

 

For an instant, he thought those must have been Lews Therin’s reflections. He had never gone on that way about the Creator or anything else that he recalled. But he could feel Lews Therin nod­ding in approval, a man listening to someone else. Still, it was not the kind of thing he would have considered before Lews Therin. How much space remained between them?

And then of course he went back to assuming that it was Lews Therin because he did not want to consider the alternative. But it was still clearly Moridin's influence.

I fail to see why it is "clearly" Moridin's influence. Moridin is a possibility, but not even the most likely one. Do we have any reason to believe that it was not Rand? No, not really.

You mean other than the fact that Rand himself said he would have never considered it? That should be enough for most people.

He says he wouldn't have considered it before LTT, not before Shadar Logoth. Rand accepts the thought as his own, LTT agrees with the thought. Deism is not nihilism. Is there any actual evidence for it being Moridin?

[Terez]

You mean other than the fact that Rand himself said he would have never considered it? That should be enough for most people.

He says he wouldn't have considered it before LTT, not before Shadar Logoth.

Seeing as how he doesn't even know who the other man in his head is yet, or even that there is one really, I'm not sure how that's relevant. He assumes that it is due to Lews Therin - despite evidence to the contrary - because Lews Therin is typically the source for strange thoughts in his head.

 

Rand accepts the thought as his own

Not really. He thinks it is rather out-of-character for himself.

 

LTT agrees with the thought.

Because he is suicidal, as we saw on Dragonmount. He wants to die, so why not go along with Moridin's depressing thoughts?

 

Is there any actual evidence for it being Moridin?

Only the fact that they are merging, as per Min's viewing. Moridin even speculates that his exhaustion is not his own, but Rand's, in TGS - this shows that they share not only visions of each other and sickness but also mindstates. Of course, you can assume that Moridin was lying if you like, but I see no reason to do so.

[Mr Ares]

You mean other than the fact that Rand himself said he would have never considered it? That should be enough for most people.

He says he wouldn't have considered it before LTT, not before Shadar Logoth.

Seeing as how he doesn't even know who the other man in his head is yet, or even that there is one really, I'm not sure how that's relevant. He assumes that it is due to Lews Therin - despite evidence to the contrary - because Lews Therin is typically the source for strange thoughts in his head.

What evidence to the contrary?

 

Rand accepts the thought as his own

Not really. He thinks it is rather out-of-character for himself.

And then he accepts it anyway. "Still, it was not the kind of thing he would have considered before Lews Therin. How much space remained between them?" He acknowledges LTT has had an impact on his thoughts, that he is considering things he once wouldn't. But he doesn't wonder where the thought has come from - he thinks it was LTT's, then when he has evidence it wasn't, he accepts it was his own.

 

LTT agrees with the thought.

Because he is suicidal, as we saw on Dragonmount. He wants to die, so why not go along with Moridin's depressing thoughts?

I don't see what's depressing about it.

 

Is there any actual evidence for it being Moridin?

Only the fact that they are merging, as per Min's viewing. Moridin even speculates that his exhaustion is not his own, but Rand's, in TGS - this shows that they share not only visions of each other and sickness but also mindstates. Of course, you can assume that Moridin was lying if you like, but I see no reason to do so.

So that would be a no.