How did Lanfear die?

[Sharaman]

The Finns are similar to AS in that they never directly lie

We don't know that; we only know that the Aelfinn give true answers, according to the ancient agreement.

I think Sharaman meant that we never see them give outright lies. Even when they try to trick Mat and co during their visit to ToG they seem to stick to the truth (sort of). The two examples I gave above may be considered lies but it's debatable.

 

 

BTW, on your idea that Lanfear may not have died and is just using a power created disguise, there is one more reason to doubt that. She shows up in Rand's dream in ToM as Cyndane, not as Lanfear. Why would she do that? This just means extra trouble trying to persuade Rand that

she is who she says she is. Also, clearly, part of the plan is to try to seduce Rand. That seems to be working as his desire is mentioned. Now, we are told that Cyndane is beautiful but Lanfear was supposedly the most beautiful woman ever, or so we were told often enough. Why use an inferior substitute if you don't have to?

 

Yes, I meant we've never seen them lie outright - and they "keep" their word in their bargains though they may twist it. This fits with the sidhe of Celtic legend.

[Terez]

If she didn't show up as Cyndane, then how would Rand know who to look for when he comes to save her?

[herid]

If she didn't show up as Cyndane, then how would Rand know who to look for when he comes to save her?

he would look for Lanfear of course. and he would find Lanfear too. if Cyndane form is just a power created disguise it can be dropped at any moment.

[Guest smackskull]

At the end of ToM Rand see's Lanfear appear in his warded dreams... was this just his imagination? Was Lanfear actually there and not dead? He says to her "You're dead. I saw you die!". She responds with "I wish I were dead. I wish it. Please! He grinds my bones and snaps them like twigs, then leaves me to die before healing me just enough to keep me alive."... "he comes! The Shadow in every man's mind, the murderer of truth." This leads me to believe that she is in fact alive and that possibly Moridin has her? or maybe Shaidar Haran(rememmber greandal was taken by him for failure at the end of the book as well)? Since Rnad didnt recognize her at first, it make it possible that she was in fact transmigrated. If she is indeed alive ten she is obviously being kept by Moridin or someone of equal power.

[chinnma]

not sure how much this relates to the topic at hand, but I've seen no indication that Lanfear was given any wishes by the 'Finns. The assumption seems to be that everyone who goes to Finnland gets wishes, but the 'Finns dont seem to like the shadow very much (they refuse to answer any questions about them). Doesnt neccisarily prove anything either way, but i'm not asuming Lanfear was granted anything.

[capuga]

At the end of ToM Rand see's Lanfear appear in his warded dreams... was this just his imagination? Was Lanfear actually there and not dead? He says to her "You're dead. I saw you die!". She responds with "I wish I were dead. I wish it. Please! He grinds my bones and snaps them like twigs, then leaves me to die before healing me just enough to keep me alive."... "he comes! The Shadow in every man's mind, the murderer of truth." This leads me to believe that she is in fact alive and that possibly Moridin has her? or maybe Shaidar Haran(rememmber greandal was taken by him for failure at the end of the book as well)? Since Rnad didnt recognize her at first, it make it possible that she was in fact transmigrated. If she is indeed alive ten she is obviously being kept by Moridin or someone of equal power.

 

Lanfear was transmigated as Cyndane. This was revealed with certainty during Cyndane's POV during the Cleansing in WH. She is mind-trapped and the mind-trap is held by Moridin.

[Terez]

If she didn't show up as Cyndane, then how would Rand know who to look for when he comes to save her?

he would look for Lanfear of course. and he would find Lanfear too. if Cyndane form is just a power created disguise it can be dropped at any moment.

Yeah, but presumably she would have some reason for the disguise and some need to maintain it at all times. By the way, I agree it's more likely that she died and was transmigrated; I just figure there is some room for doubt. Tamyrlin of Theoryland kind of latched on to the theory after TOM, but I think that's because he had the hots for Lanfear and he doesn't like blondes.

 

At the end of ToM Rand see's Lanfear appear in his warded dreams... was this just his imagination? Was Lanfear actually there and not dead? He says to her "You're dead. I saw you die!". She responds with "I wish I were dead. I wish it. Please! He grinds my bones and snaps them like twigs, then leaves me to die before healing me just enough to keep me alive."... "he comes! The Shadow in every man's mind, the murderer of truth." This leads me to believe that she is in fact alive and that possibly Moridin has her? or maybe Shaidar Haran(rememmber greandal was taken by him for failure at the end of the book as well)? Since Rnad didnt recognize her at first, it make it possible that she was in fact transmigrated. If she is indeed alive ten she is obviously being kept by Moridin or someone of equal power.

Yeah, we have known she was alive since TPOD, WH at the latest. At the cleansing we got her POV and she thought about how Lews Therin and how he had scorned her love, and her offer to use the Choedan Kal with him to challenge the Great Lord. She (like Moghedien) is being controlled by a mindtrap which is worn by Moridin.

 

As to whether she was really 'there' in his dream, that is another question altogether, and far less certain. If she was really there, it most likely had something to do with Moridin's link to Rand and the Mindtrap, since it was implied that breaking his wards would require some effort and would likely be painful for Rand. Also, if there was a way to do that, you'd think Lews Therin would know of it.

[herid]

not sure how much this relates to the topic at hand, but I've seen no indication that Lanfear was given any wishes by the 'Finns.

we have no evidence to the contrary. and there is certainly no evidence that they would not deal with the shadow. the person who showed up to get Lanfear (presumably Moridin) got her. The fact that they don't like questions about the shadow is hardly a proof that they would refuse lanfear. and they don't refuse to answer questions about the shadow. the questions about the shadow are dangerous but they are answered. rand asked how he can win the LB and survive and he was answered. that's definitely a question about the shadow.

so until we do get some evidence that they would not grant Lanfear her wishes we should assume they they did. otherwise you might as well start assuming that they might not grant wishes to blondes or people wearing red hats.

[Terez]

"With this," Moiraine said. "I will be strong enough to at least take the pain away. They placed it on me to let me draw more of the Power, to make their feeding more succulent. I asked for it, actually, as one of my three demands. I did not realize they would end up using it against me."

 

"They gave you your three demands?" Mat asked, frowning.

 

"I passed through the ter'angreal," she said. "The ancient treaty held for both of us, though with the doorway destroyed, there was no simple return. I knew from . . . previous events that I would not escape unless you came for me, no matter what my demands were or how carefully I worded them. So I used them for the best."

 

"What did you ask for?" Mat asked. "Beyond the angreal?"

 

She smiled. "I shall keep that to myself, for now. You do have my thanks, young Matrim. For my life."

[herid]

If she didn't show up as Cyndane, then how would Rand know who to look for when he comes to save her?

he would look for Lanfear of course. and he would find Lanfear too. if Cyndane form is just a power created disguise it can be dropped at any moment.

Yeah, but presumably she would have some reason for the disguise and some need to maintain it at all times.

It's possible but highly unlikely IMO. the only reason I can think of would be if she was badly disfigured during her escape from the Finns. But that would not account for difference in height for example. Lanfear is tall and Cyndane is short. what would be the point of that? It's much easier and safer to keep the same height even if the face is disguised.

 

I can't really think of another reason to keep a disguise. A disguise is a means to an end, not an end in itself. Besides, as I mentioned earlier, we have a Cyndane POV at cleansing. I can't see Lanfear thinking of herself as Cyndane unless she was really transmigrated.

By the way, I agree it's more likely that she died and was transmigrated; I just figure there is some room for doubt. Tamyrlin of Theoryland kind of latched on to the theory after TOM, but I think that's because he had the hots for Lanfear and he doesn't like blondes.

 

lol. I don't have a comeback for that one.

[Goldstar]

Let's see..... We know that Moiraine was given her three requests, so we can assume that Lanfear was as well. Knowing Mieren, I wouldn't be completely shocked if one of her requests accidentially/purposely were related to the Dragon or the Dark One, which we know is a no-no to the Finn. This would have caused them to kill her. That would explain why she still has most of her power, and why Moiraine was able to recieve the Angreal that Lanfear was wearing.

[Terez]

Moiraine took the angreal from Lanfear as they went through the doorway. Also, the quote above shows that Lanfear was also granted wishes, so no need to guess.

[aynatal2000]

Why assume the Finns lied... or that it was Moridin that came for Lanfear?

I do not believe that Moridin came for Lanfear; I think Slayer did though.

 

Remember he is seen by the Tower of Ghenji often in the wolf dream;he is two natured,unique .If Moridin went in , he is just as delectable as an Aes Sedai... and just as vulnerable since he is connected to the Dark... and any questions(inquiries) connected to the Dark have have strange consequences in the land of the Finns.So how could he ask or bargain for Lanfear?

 

I doubt Moridin went in ; if he could , the Dark one would have sent Lanfear in there early on, setting a trap for the boys when they first went to the Stone - the doorway was known to have been given by the Mayene, Dark Friends would have given that info long ago.If the Chosen could have freely entered and exited the doorways, they could have gone in the one in Rhuidean even, rather than have left traps to hinder Rand and Mat after he passed through the rings and Mat passed through the doorway a second time and was given his ashendari, which we now know will give him access and egress from the Tower, not needing the doorways.(Hmm is that why Moiraine pushed Lanfear in? to destroy the gateway since she knew of something from her previous questions, or research).The destruction of the doorway in Tear I think may have been Rand's doing with his traps to Callandor - did he set them so that if Callandor was removed the doorway would be destroyed( in response to he who comes after? Did Rand take that literally?)

 

Slayer is unique; is he part of the dimension that the Finns operate in? He cannot channel, so he had no danger of being trapped and held as emotional crack for the Finns.If he is a part of their world or dimension he would have immunity... or the two natured uniqueness of him may have been used to strike a bargain years ago that exempts him from the Finns amusements.The original agreement that holds for the Aes Sedai, may also hold for the Dark - but as we have seen that doesn't leave them exempt from the Finns and their macabre sense of humor.

 

That leaves something ...unique to be able to bypass the Finns consequences,yes?

 

Please let's have some feedback on this; I have wondered about Slayer always being seen at the Tower since he was introduced as Lord Luc in The Shadow Rising.Why always there - what is his connection to it that makes it seem as if he travels in and out of it.

[herid]

Let's see..... We know that Moiraine was given her three requests, so we can assume that Lanfear was as well. Knowing Mieren, I wouldn't be completely shocked if one of her requests accidentially/purposely were related to the Dragon or the Dark One, which we know is a no-no to the Finn. This would have caused them to kill her. That would explain why she still has most of her power, and why Moiraine was able to recieve the Angreal that Lanfear was wearing.

a request about Rand is not a request about Shadow. and questions/requests about shadow are NOT a no-no. they are dangerous but that does not mean they have to be fatal. as I mentioned Rand asked how to win the LB and survive. that is definitely a question about the shadow and he was answered. besides, Finns are not all powerful as I mentioned above. Their power has definite limits and Lanfear would know about it. so she would not ask for something beyond their power like Rand falling in love with her or her supplanting the DO.

[Terez]

Why assume the Finns lied...

Because Moiraine suspected that they had lied.

 

or that it was Moridin that came for Lanfear?

I do not believe that Moridin came for Lanfear; I think Slayer did though.

 

Remember he is seen by the Tower of Ghenji often

This is not true. He was only seen there once, and there is nothing to say that he actually went in, and plenty of reasons to assume he did not.

[Sharaman]

It doesn't matter a great deal who rescued Lanfear.

But for argument's sake, Moridin has the True Power, which may make him invulnerable to the Finns. They have a great number of ter'angreal/ angreal that can handle OP but it's very doubtful that they have TP angreal/ shields. Nor do we have reason to suppose that they can suck Essence of GLOD or even want to.

The Finn realms cannot even be reached in TAR, which makes Slayer's unique abilities useless.

Also if it had been Slayer, Moiraine might have said "A guy who looked like Rand/ Lan came for Lanfear" though there's no guarantee that she would bother to mention it if she saw a resemblance.

Also if we assume that whoever rescued Lanfear also smashed the Tear Doorway, the chances that it was Moridin rises.

So I'd say it's extremely likely that Moridin did his own dirty work rather than Slayer.