How the choedan kal shall be safely tapped without an access key

[MichaelOfTheWhite]

You yourself have just proven that my assertion is supportable and provable. You claim that there are no similarities mentioned between the CK and callandor, yet you contradict yourself by mentioning the 'fail-safe'.

There is no contradiction there because there's nothing -- seriously, nothing -- in the text, at least so far, that hints that the fact that the Choedan Kal are too powerful to be used on their own has any relationship to the manufacturing flaw in Callandor.

 

There's nothing in the text that supports the idea that the (very vague) similarity you point out has the same cause or can be dealt with in the same way.

 

2. They both lack valves that regulate the amount of OP flowing through them

This assertion cannot be supported in the case of the Choedan Kal. Everywhere in the text it's said that the danger of Choedan Kal is inherent in their immense power, not that they were manufactured imperfectly like Callandor.

Well, I choose to interpret Caddy's statement that callandor is 'imperfect' to mean that it doesn't have a buffer like other angreal do. :/ I think you're just being contrary. After all, if the CK had a buffer, surely they'd set the buffer's limit to something that at least some channelers could use?

 

QuietAiel: that's sound reasoning, but then what's your opinion on the circles formed with callandor?

[Mulk]

As to the reason Callandor needs to be in a circle of three? In the circle of two (one woman and one man) a man must control. The leader of a circle is not buffered from pulling too much of his or her own capacity. So it must be three, two women, one controlling, to protect the man from overdrawing. The circle replaces the missing buffer in Callandor and protects the man from himself. I think Callandor can probably be used safely in much larger circles as well, it just requires that the man holding it not be in control, for his own safety. The effect of the lack of the buffer was also indicated in a magnification of the taint which produced a wildness of the mind. I rather doubt that is in effect anymore since the taint is now gone, but I could be mistaken - it could still induce wildness based on the taint that remains in a man's brain.

[MichaelOfTheWhite]

Linking doesn't give you a greater capacity, it gives you access to a somewhat lessened capacity of the others in your circle, or more if they are holding an angreal or the like, but you don't ever actually take hold of it...

Again, a circle doesn't increase the capacity of a channeler, just gives him or her access to the strength of others, so it doesn't make you any more able to bear the load of the CK yourself

Linking allows you to safely draw more than you usually could by yourself; so I'm going to disagree with your statement, because it's conceivable that a large enough circle could provide a suitable buffer.

 

What you said about callandor was true, but:

'Circles': One of the channelers leads, while the others are simply used as conduits to allow the lead channeler to draw a much larger amount of the One Power than he or she could alone

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Linking

 

You said:

you don't ever actually take hold of [the power they're providing]. You take their flows and weave it.

Your statement was inaccurate, because in order to take this power and weave flows from it, the leader needs to be filled with it.

 

My theory seems to remain valid.

 

Hence, the correct order to safely link to a CK using a circle might be:

1. Form a big circle

2. Gain an inherent buffer by doing so

3. Take the lead

4. Channel through the CK

5. You will receive an amount from the CK within the circles maximum tolerance, if that max tolerance is greater than what the CK can provide

6. If the circle's max tolerance is less than what the CK provides, you'll burn out.

[Mulk]

It could be that the sole purpose of the access keys was nothing more than providing a way to use them that was more friendly to travel. That is a possibility that might leave the door open for using something else to gain access, though I still hold to my original opinion.

 

You are proposing to use a circle like an angreal for the purpose of this, as though artificially increasing a channeler's ability to hold the power will do. I don't think using the CK is as simple as attaching enough angreal/sa'angreal to yourself (recall, we have proof in series of someone having more than one capacity-increasing item in use at the same time so that is doable - Rand does that in his fight with Asmodean in The Shadow Rising) to give you the necessary capacity. If it was, just grab the rod sa'angreal Egwene used in TGS and presto - instant CK use. No need to burden yourself with a huge circle, no need for people to follow you around or anything like that. That rod likely makes any woman who can channel (save perhaps someone as weak as Morgase, who is so weak she may as well not be able to channel) as powerful as Rand is on his own if not more, so it should logically provide the needed capacity for any likely CK users on the female side.

 

The counter to that is that what little we know of the CK seems to indicate that the relevant capacity is a person's native strength, not that which is augmented by an angreal or the like. Verin gave no qualifiers on her description of whom she believed capable of wielding the CK in the Tower after all - the quote was something along the lines of the Amyrlin, Moiraine, a few others and three still in training - Nynaeve, Elayne and Egwene. If anyone could, the more likely statement would be anyone could, but all but the strongest channelers would require aid in doing so. I will also pre-emptively grant that failure to mention a work around is not proof in itself, but it is indicative. That said, there is no way to prove or disprove your thought or mine since there are no cases in point to look at. Which makes all of this an interesting exercise but nothing more since there cannot be any cases in point going forward and thus no way to prove it one way or the other.

 

I suspect that means we'll have to agree to disagree. :)

[MichaelOfTheWhite]

Does a 'buffer' just limit your craving to draw in more OP than you can handle? (Based on the premise that you could still yourself using the white wand, but aren't overpowered by the craving thanks to the buffer, so you don't).

Does a buffer just set you a new maximum channeling value that you can't go above and therefore can't still yourself? e.g. double-your-normal power? If so, then if the CK are buffered, they should be perfectly safe to use without the access keys, which makes the Forsaken even less inventive than I'd previously thought possible. It would also make the CK in Morgase's hands look like... well, she might be able to weave a fireball with it.

 

It might also be that the buffer itself determines the strength of the angreal / sa'angreal. Low buffer limit = low power angreal.

(Based on the premise that if you drew through a non-buffered, 'weak' angreal you could eventually still yourself if you are weak). Actually this can't be true because Callandor has no buffer but also has a specific strength: it is a strong item, not a weak one.

However, the scenario where you draw through a non-buffered weak angreal until you still yourself is valid.

 

Hence, a buffer has no impact on the strength of the item. An angreal must have some other property to it that determines its strength. This also goes some way to answering Exy's comment of

This assertion cannot be supported in the case of the Choedan Kal. Everywhere in the text it's said that the danger of Choedan Kal is inherent in their immense power, not that they were manufactured imperfectly like Callandor.

 

It is not the case that the CK are dangerous simply because of their great power, because they might have a buffer, as Exy said so persuasively. If that's the case, then what's the big deal in channeling through one?

 

Oh wait, never mind, you've got access keys that magically make it all work ohwaitthisIZ magick! How could we forget?

 

For some reason this inconsistency really grates.

[Exy]

Well, I choose to interpret Caddy's statement that callandor is 'imperfect' to mean that it doesn't have a buffer like other angreal do. :/

Yes. That has been firmly established of Callandor.

 

 

I think you're just being contrary. After all, if the CK had a buffer, surely they'd set the buffer's limit to something that at least some channelers could use?

And all the Aes Sedai who've ever given descriptions of it state that the Choedan Kal are just too powerful for anyone to use. That it's inherent and unavoidable due to how powerful they are.

 

There is just literally zero textual support for your hypothesis here, and you're presenting it as though it's fact.