A Role For Shara

[Luckers]

[i'm just kicking some thoughts around. Nothing too serious here]

 

So I've long argued that Shara cannot play any meaningful role. And in most ways I maintain that. The amount of screen time needed to introduce a full culture is great--it took two books and many earlier appearence to cover the Aiel, there simply isn't time left to do the same with Shara. But people like to discuss it, in particular in reference to the idea that Demandred is there.

 

It occurs to me, however, that it is not implausible for Shara to play a role, they just can't play an 'onscreen' role to any great degree. Consider, for instance, how clever it would be for Demandred to incite the Sharans into invading the Three-fold Land. Would the Aiel abandon the Wetlands to protect their understrength holds? Would they hold to their old oath of 'till shade is gone/into the shadow with teeth bared'?

 

The significant aspect of this is that its not integral--it could be shown in a few chapters from Aiel/Demandred perspectives--the real drama would not come from the role the Sharans were playing, but rather the dilema it places on the Aiel, neatly stepping around the need for full exposition. It would also possibly fit if the ships from the ToM prologue were Sharan--they'd be doing the same thing in Seanchan, attempting to distract forces away from the main fight.

 

Finally this would mean Demandred only had his fingers in the Sharan pot, and given I'm a strong proponent that Demandred is not any one place, or one person but rather organising and manipulating a number of different events and place that really fits with me.

[moratcorlm]

The amount of screen time needed to introduce a full culture is great--it took two books and many earlier appearence to cover the Aiel, there simply isn't time left to do the same with Shara.

How do you square that with the knowledge that we've not seen Demandred through KOD? That pretty much clears out the leadership of every non-Sharan human nation except Murandy – which we haven't spent more than two chapters in, creating the same problem – or maybe some pointy-teeth non-Aiel culture in the Blight, which we also have no idea about. That, or he's in the Black Tower, which would be lame (pronounced La-eem).

 

I don't think many people who hold to the Sharan hypothesis think we're going to get an in-depth study of their culture, nor that we'd even get much or anything in the way of POV moments from them: they're cannon-fodder. And that's fine; it's the last book and it would be terrible writing to try to explore them like that after 10,000 pages. So your role for Shara is not really inconsistent with what most people in the Demandred-in-Shara camp expect. Though I'd think they'd have to make it further than the Waste to pose a serious threat; we know that the Aiel left behind enough algai'd'siswai to guard their holds, and most of them seem to be pretty defensible. Sharans coming through Jangai Pass, on the other hand, or pouring through Waygates or Portal Stones...

 

[Muad Cheade]

The issue with Shara is that it's either still in chaos and civil war or Demandred is directly in control and his "rule is secure" and they're "gathering for war.

 

The man Rand hears in the inn in Tear might support either one. He's either a refugee or a spy.

 

I used to support the theory that Demandred was in Shara as that would give the Shadow an entire continent of "Travel-able" warriors and channelers, but you're right. It took two books to explain the Aiel sufficiently and although we have been given tidbits about the Sharans, it would still necessitate their backgrounds, the Shadow's machinations there, and their reasoning. I'm not sure if there will be ample space to do so and fulfill the rest of aMoL.

 

As for the Sharans invading the West, it is plausible. In Aviendha's alternate future trip there is mention of the Seanchan contacting the "Far Ones" and telling them to refuse shelter to the Aiel, so we could get the first contact in aMoL.. However, that implies either:

1). the Seanchan couldn't defeat the Sharans and declared truce. That wouldn't give the Aiel or the Light that good of a chance to repel them as the Seanchan have the most dominant military machine.

2). They (and the rest of the Westlands) have only had minimal contact with Shara.

 

Finally this would mean Demandred only had his fingers in the Sharan pot, and given I'm a strong proponent that Demandred is not any one place, or one person but rather organising and manipulating a number of different events and place that really fits with me.

I'm starting to agree with that, yet I still can't get his line "My rule is secure. I gather for war" out of my head. It implies that he (and Moridin) were mentioning and referring to a specific place/agenda/etc.

[Luckers]

Luckers, on 04 January 2011 - 05:46 AM, said:

 

The amount of screen time needed to introduce a full culture is great--it took two books and many earlier appearence to cover the Aiel, there simply isn't time left to do the same with Shara.

 

 

How do you square that with the knowledge that we've not seen Demandred through KOD? That pretty much clears out the leadership of every non-Sharan human nation except Murandy – which we haven't spent more than two chapters in, creating the same problem – or maybe some pointy-teeth non-Aiel culture in the Blight, which we also have no idea about. That, or he's in the Black Tower, which would be lame (pronounced La-eem).

 

I'm not looking to get into a Demandred discussion here, but technically what was said was that we've not seen Demandred's alter-ego pre-KoD. I quite frankly doubt Demandred has an alter-ego at all, but is rather working through high placed individuals who were already in place within those governments, either through compulsion or through Darkfriend connections. The argument that Demandred has to be in either Shara or Murandy relies on the assumption that Demandred inserted himself into a base of power as the other Forsaken did. It's not actually necessary.

 

As such the weight placed on the eventual role of Shara is relative to the amount of effort Demandred has put in. The line of thought you seem to be following is that if Demandred did establish himself in Shara then Shara has to be involved in a larger scale, but my answer therefore your question is what if Demandred only dabbled? Enough to say, convince the Sharans they needed to invade the Waste. It would be comprable to the effort Semirhage put into Seanchan (the continent). It allows for its inclusion, but not its deep involvement.

 

I don't think many people who hold to the Sharan hypothesis think we're going to get an in-depth study of their culture, nor that we'd even get much or anything in the way of POV moments from them: they're cannon-fodder. And that's fine; it's the last book and it would be terrible writing to try to explore them like that after 10,000 pages. So your role for Shara is not really inconsistent with what most people in the Demandred-in-Shara camp expect.

 

See, I argue that for the Sharans to make a full-scale invasion of the Westlands requires more detailed exposition of their culture, their major players, and their intentions, and delusions, in reguards to the Last Battle. I mean you're talking about throwing a major player--an Empire that rivals Seanchan in both military might and trained battle ready channelers--into the main game, they cannot just be cannon fodder.

 

But a side screen moment, a play to divert the Aiel, that could be done with a bare handful of PoV's. Moridin, making a comment about how the Aiel were growing bothersome and commanding Demandred to launch his initiative there, a PoV from an Aiel hold falling to armies coming out of the cliffs of dawn, and then little later a meeting of the Clan Chiefs were the Aiel are forced to choose between returning to the Three-Fold Land and protecting their holds, or following the Dragon to Shayol Goul itself, and meeting their Toh. The Aiel choose the unthinkable, Wise Ones evacuate holds, and maybe one clan returns to hold the Sharans from the Dragonwall and keep them off Rand's back.

 

Though I'd think they'd have to make it further than the Waste to pose a serious threat; we know that the Aiel left behind enough algai'd'siswai to guard their holds, and most of them seem to be pretty defensible.

 

They left enough algai'd'siswai to guard from sheep raids from other clans, not an all out invasion from Shara. But again, that would be the point--they cannot be a serious threat. If they are to be a serious threat they must be a serious player, which brings us back to all that exposition that we simply don't have time for. A play to distract the Aiel, on the other hand, works. It IS a serious threat because the loss of the Aiel to the Dragon would be devestating, yet it is the role the Aiel play or don't play which is the threat, not the role the Sharans play. This steps around this issues at hand.

 

The issue with Shara is that it's either still in chaos and civil war or Demandred is directly in control and his "rule is secure" and they're "gathering for war.

 

Not necessarily. The chaos, remember, was caused by the knowledge of the Dragon. Demandred could play on that to cause an invasion without having to take control of Shara itself. Indeed I frankly don't see how one could control Shara--it is controlled by the Ayyad, a loose and vast organisational body that itself hides in the shadows and utilizes the power to compel and control authority. One doesn't simply 'Lord Brend's' ones way into power within that system. But if he's been playing off as a False Dragon, or even just manipulating the cultures fears about it, then he could incite an invasion.

 

1). the Seanchan couldn't defeat the Sharans and declared truce. That wouldn't give the Aiel or the Light that good of a chance to repel them as the Seanchan have the most dominant military machine.

2). They (and the rest of the Westlands) have only had minimal contact with Shara.

 

Aviendha's visions speak of the Far Lands kneeling to the Ravens--which makes sense, lacking travelling or the ability to disguise their ability to channel, or for that matter their facial tattoos, the Ayyad would have fallen swiftly. My guess is that in that Timeline, the Westland Seanchan first reconquered Seanchan itself, then the war with the Aiel began and they gouged the Ayyad for an easily found (villaged together) and quickly rounded up group of new channelers. Later, as the war went better, they likely consolidated their rule with the normal Sharans, who knelt swiftly given their actual government--the Ayyad--had been wiped out.

 

I'm starting to agree with that, yet I still can't get his line "My rule is secure. I gather for war" out of my head. It implies that he (and Moridin) were mentioning and referring to a specific place/agenda/etc.

 

Again, I don't want this to turn into a Demandred thread, but just quickly my explanation of this is that his 'rule' is control of the Shadowspawn. Consider that for Demandred's rule to be secure, it had to previously be insecure. Then think that just recently an unknown agent subverted a large number of Trollocs against the will of the shadow.

 

My guess is Moridin charged him with ensuring no other infractions happened. The steps he took to secure his rule were to secure them from further subversion like the 'fake-Sammael', which would mostly mean ensuring that no one with a chosen mark could command large quantities away without being noticed.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I am agreeing with Luckers here in regards to Shara. I do not think they will get a big onscreen appearance, but I am a fan of them doing something like you suggested, invading the waste offscreen. I dont really have any specific ideas about WHAT they will do, but I agree that they will do something offscreen that creates a big problem for the onscreen characters. Perhaps they invade the waste, or they come through the blight to fight for the Light. The black ships in seanchan would also be good being Sharan. In the black ship theory tradition, perhaps the black ships come and mess up the sea-folk ships and their islands. Although I doubt there will be another invasion from the west like the Return.

 

In any case, I am a fan of Shara doing something important, but offscreen. I dont think RJ would have introduced them for absolutely NO reason at all. Or else they would not have been mentioned at all. This going with the theme that basically EVERYTHING in the Wheel of Time is important. RJ doesnt put random things in for unnecessary filler. Not something as big as Shara, because it has been discussed quite a bit. With Graendal and the whole Ayyad stuff, the "rumors" and "stories" about Shara and the Sharan appearing in KoD.

[moratcorlm]

A good point about the Sea Folk, for whom your point about extraneous details applies even more strongly. We've been subjected to them too much for too long for them not to have a role in the Last Battle, and a naval conflict would be the obvious bet.

[mbuehner]

Yeah, Shara has been kind of a Chekhov's Rifle for the last half of the series, somebody is going to shoot it somehow. I agree it would be pretty difficult to shoehorn them into a major impact on the series at this point. The casual (sane?) readers out there will be reaching for the index to figure out who these guys are and how they roll. I agree they will play some peripheral part in the last book, but nothing critical.

 

Good to remember that Aviendha didn't make any special note of Shara in her future visions, and what she did see suggested Shara was either under control or in close contact with the Seanchan Empire. Make of that what you will.

 

Some have suggested that the red sails seen in the prologue on the coast of Seanchan are Sharan ships. Interesting but no particular reason to believe it.

[aynatal2000]

The upset on this is going to be the Shaido who are running back to the Threefold land and have said that they are not coming out again.They are going to be spoiling for a fight,remember they were split up and will be gathering strays as they go.I do not think that anyone, Demandred or Moridin has thought of them.This begins the remnant of a remnant of Aiel survival... they are a remnant of the original Aiel who became known as Tinkers when the others split off from the way of the Leaf and the Gai Shain would be the only ones to survive a battle since the would be non combatants.

 

I think they are going to fight in the Blight and come upon the stronghold that Moridin has.They are crazy... and it would be fitting.