Discuss Graendal

[didymos]

Uh, nobody mentioned the elephant in the room, when Rand is about to kill Graendal and she sends for a black sister and has arangar both create weaves (compulsion is something she likes to do why would she delegate that)

 

She delegated because she wanted the female-woven Compulsion to look like it wasn't her work if it was discovered, hoping that would throw Rand off and buy her more time. Besides, she's not into weaving Compulsion for it's own sake. She's into the results.

 

Rand does not notice saidin on him?

 

As noted Rand didn't check. Graendal was just adding another potential source of confusion in case whoever did check was able to detect saidin-created Compulsion.

 

This is all stated right there in the narration. It's no "elephant".

[l_uniquefeuille]

I found Greandal funny in this part:

 

 

Graendal: So when it seemed that I tripped and fell into that pit of scum, I didn't actually fall *smiles smugly* I just pretended to fall.

Moridin *scratching his head*: So u mean to say that u actually jumped into the scum to fool Al'Thor , so that he would think you died a smelly death?

Greandal: Precisely

Moridin: Ah.....Clever. I like that.

Greandal:(Whew!)

[Viperswhip]

Well, as to earlier comments, I used to be a lawyer and did my undergrad in criminology and can tell you if you want to be raped it is still rape, as it depends on the intent of the accused and the actions of the victim, not their intent as there is no way for an accused to know or prove what was in the mind of the victim.

 

At least, that's how it is in the last decade or so, it's not too long ago that wearing a short skirt was enough for some judges to deem consent on the victim's part.

 

Anyway, Graendal always struck me as being somewhat like a full out evil Verin; you know, sneaky but super knowledgeable. Both were students of human behaviour and Verin and her were the only two to express wariness at directly opposing a Ta'veren. Verin was horrified by the thought of Rand actually being held in the Tower, and Graendal did not think she could beat Perrin in a direct confrontation. I think they both recognize that the Pattern will work to protect Ta'veren and that neither of them are strong enough to overcome the pattern directly. Don't get me wrong, I think it is a lame excuse, she should have at least tried. She is basically now being punished for not trying hard enough. Heck, she could easily have kept an eye on what was going on in TAR and seeing that Perrin was engaged there, found him in the real world and seen if the Pattern could protect him when he was asleep, and being protected in TAR.

[Jeangray]

Graendal's plan, as I understand it, was to cause enough local chaos around Perrin that Perrin would briefly 'sidestep fate', allowing something simple and random-ish to kill him.

 

And for this, she chose the fellow who openly hated Perrin and was rather unlikely to get a shot at him? I mean, OK, supposedly chaos of battle makes ta'veren more vulnerable, not that I have noticed it with Mat or Rand, but let's agree for argument's sake.

Still, wouldn't it make vastly more sense to Compel more people to kill Perrin should the opportunity present itself and in particular people whom Perrin might actually trust? And can it really be that there are zero DFs among Perrin's forces, who wouldn't even need to be Compelled, just ordered?

Finally, how about grabbing Faile as a backup plan and murdering Berelein and Alliandre at the crucial moment, to cause confusion in their forces? Surely the genius psychologist couldn't have missed Perrin's extremely obvious Achilles heel?

 

The whole dreamspike deal is also very problematic, IMHO. OK, it may be that only wolfbrothers could actually pass the dome. However, as seen with Perrin, upon falling asleep, he could enter the dreamworld outside the dome and not be limited by it. Doesn't it mean, that dreamwalkers could chose to enter the dream inside the dome? And once there, find and destroy the dreamspike. How on earth could something like that have been a working protection in the War of Power, when competent dreamwalkers were commonplace?

 

And why on earth would Graendal need to use the dreamspike in the first place, when killing Perrin's few channelers (who weren't ta'veren protected by the Pattern) or even just the 2 Asha'man would have denied him Travelling much more effectively.

 

I mean, it is clear that Graendal's plan had to fail, but why not present us with a plan that looked reasonable and actually had a snowflake in hell's chance of working?

[WhiskyJack]

Graendal's plan, as I understand it, was to cause enough local chaos around Perrin that Perrin would briefly 'sidestep fate', allowing something simple and random-ish to kill him.

 

And for this, she chose the fellow who openly hated Perrin and was rather unlikely to get a shot at him? I mean, OK, supposedly chaos of battle makes ta'veren more vulnerable, not that I have noticed it with Mat or Rand, but let's agree for argument's sake.

Still, wouldn't it make vastly more sense to Compel more people to kill Perrin should the opportunity present itself and in particular people whom Perrin might actually trust? And can it really be that there are zero DFs among Perrin's forces, who wouldn't even need to be Compelled, just ordered?

Finally, how about grabbing Faile as a backup plan and murdering Berelein and Alliandre at the crucial moment, to cause confusion in their forces? Surely the genius psychologist couldn't have missed Perrin's extremely obvious Achilles heel?

 

The whole dreamspike deal is also very problematic, IMHO. OK, it may be that only wolfbrothers could actually pass the dome. However, as seen with Perrin, upon falling asleep, he could enter the dreamworld outside the dome and not be limited by it. Doesn't it mean, that dreamwalkers could chose to enter the dream inside the dome? And once there, find and destroy the dreamspike. How on earth could something like that have been a working protection in the War of Power, when competent dreamwalkers were commonplace?

 

And why on earth would Graendal need to use the dreamspike in the first place, when killing Perrin's few channelers (who weren't ta'veren protected by the Pattern) or even just the 2 Asha'man would have denied him Travelling much more effectively.

 

I mean, it is clear that Graendal's plan had to fail, but why not present us with a plan that looked reasonable and actually had a snowflake in hell's chance of working?

 

If she could do all that, why not go and kill Perrin personally? Why all this drama of dreamspike and slayer and what not? How hard it is kill guys like Mat or Perrin? Neither can channel. If she knew where they were, she could have just walked to his tent, killed him off and left.

[dwn]

Graendal's plan, as I understand it, was to cause enough local chaos around Perrin that Perrin would briefly 'sidestep fate', allowing something simple and random-ish to kill him.

 

And for this, she chose the fellow who openly hated Perrin and was rather unlikely to get a shot at him? I mean, OK, supposedly chaos of battle makes ta'veren more vulnerable, not that I have noticed it with Mat or Rand, but let's agree for argument's sake.

Still, wouldn't it make vastly more sense to Compel more people to kill Perrin should the opportunity present itself and in particular people whom Perrin might actually trust? And can it really be that there are zero DFs among Perrin's forces, who wouldn't even need to be Compelled, just ordered?

Finally, how about grabbing Faile as a backup plan and murdering Berelein and Alliandre at the crucial moment, to cause confusion in their forces? Surely the genius psychologist couldn't have missed Perrin's extremely obvious Achilles heel?

 

I think her plan is a bit wonky on the surface, but I think I see where RJ/BS was going with it.

 

Due to Perrin's ta'veren nature, any direct attack on him or his close allies would likely fail. Moridin explicitly told her this, and it seems Graendal understands enough about how the Pattern works to agree. Graendal wants Perrin surrounded by a 'tempest' to increase the chance of him working contrary to his own fate.

 

If the Whitecloaks hadn't delayed Perrin, he'd have faced Graendal's shadowspawn while actively trying to avoid the leadership role the Pattern was pushing him into. An ambush at that point would have likely broken Perrin's forces and possibly Perrin himself. Galad threw a wrench into that.

 

So with the arrival of the Whitecloaks, Graendal started to incorporate them into her plans. The Pattern had already tied Byar to Perrin, and by 'tweaking' his hate into near insanity, she was, in effect, working within the Pattern to encourage the outcome she wanted. Then Slayer lost the dreamspike and let Perrin escape.

 

Graendal, getting a bit desperate, understood that Perrin was tied to those Whitecloaks, decided to spring her trap anyway, trusting that the ta'veren effect would bring Perrin back into range of her final tool. She really should have backed off but was understandably a bit upset.

 

The whole dreamspike deal is also very problematic, IMHO. OK, it may be that only wolfbrothers could actually pass the dome. However, as seen with Perrin, upon falling asleep, he could enter the dreamworld outside the dome and not be limited by it. Doesn't it mean, that dreamwalkers could chose to enter the dream inside the dome? And once there, find and destroy the dreamspike. How on earth could something like that have been a working protection in the War of Power, when competent dreamwalkers were commonplace?

 

And why on earth would Graendal need to use the dreamspike in the first place, when killing Perrin's few channelers (who weren't ta'veren protected by the Pattern) or even just the 2 Asha'man would have denied him Travelling much more effectively.

 

I mean, it is clear that Graendal's plan had to fail, but why not present us with a plan that looked reasonable and actually had a snowflake in hell's chance of working?

 

I agree that dreamwalkers could likely enter the dreamspike dome the same way Perrin did. Slayer is likely strong enough to deal with most of them, though. In the AoL, the dreamspikes were likely guarded by Aes Sedai or dreamwalkers in T'A'R.

 

Anyone close to Perrin could be there because the Pattern has drawn them to him. For instance, Neald and the Wise Ones were instrumental in forging Perrin's new hammer; trying to kill any of them might be nearly as bad as trying to kill Perrin.

 

Graendal's plan actually makes more sense than most of the FS plots. She seems to have been trying to use Perrin's own ta'veren effect against him. Her big mistake was in panicking and going in for the kill prematurely. She should have backed off and taken time to reassess the situation.

 

-- dwn

[Jeangray]

Due to Perrin's ta'veren nature, any direct attack on him or his close allies would likely fail.

 

Eh, no. We the readers know that nearly all secondary and even teriary characters have plot armor. But nowhere in the cosmology does it say that ta'veren's allies are protected. Hawkwing's first family was murdered, for instance and his heirs subverted/killed. This is what drives me batty about on-screen WoT villain action - you can't touch a ta'veren with any real hope of success? Fine. Start to chip away at their support structure. It can work. Ishamael made it work with Hawkwing.

 

If the Whitecloaks hadn't delayed Perrin, he'd have faced Graendal's shadowspawn while actively trying to avoid the leadership role the Pattern was pushing him into. An ambush at that point would have likely broken Perrin's forces and possibly Perrin himself.

 

But Mat was very successful on the battlefield indeed when actively trying to avoid the leadership role. As was Perrin versus the Shaido. It is very unclear if Graendal would have been more successful at this earlier date.

 

Galad threw a wrench into that.

 

So, she should have done something about it. Surely, a bit of subtle Compulsion on prominent Whitecloaks, + a couple of easily staged provocations should have caused a battle?

 

The Pattern had already tied Byar to Perrin, and by 'tweaking' his hate into near insanity, she was, in effect, working within the Pattern to encourage the outcome she wanted.

 

Why only Byar and not Bornhald too? Both seemed equally tied to Perrin. Not to mention that banking on Byar surviving long enough and getting close enough to Perrin to do any damage was something that only Mat could afford to do. Incredibly sloppy, wouldn't you say?

 

And again, why not have a barrage of attacks from different sides prepared, to increase chaos/vulnerability of Perrin? Why not have attacks on Perrin's allies during the same battle prepared, so that she could claim at least partial success? Contingencies, contingencies - Graendal was supposed to be good at those, after all. It was time to go all-in and do as much damage as possible.

 

In the AoL, the dreamspikes were likely guarded by Aes Sedai or dreamwalkers in T'A'R.

 

Yet Graendal thought that she could use the dreamspike to defend her base against other surviving Chosen... who are all dreamwalkers. And I doubt that she intended to spend all her time in T'AR guarding it either.

 

Her big mistake was in panicking and going in for the kill prematurely. She should have backed off and taken time to reassess the situation.

 

No, she knew that Moridin/SH wouldn't allow her any more time, not after she lost the dreamspike. It was do or fall. Except that for some extremely contrived reason Graendal didn't do her all even so.

 

Personally, I find it to be one of the lamer and more inept among the Shadow plots and totally unworthy of a supposed genius as per LTT.

[AutomatedTeller]

I don't know that dreamwalkers could or could not enter the way Perrin did. I don't think there were wolfbrothers in the AoL, were there? Or, maybe, believing that the dreamspike kept them from doing that kept them from doing it.

 

Or maybe it was only used with guards. No defenses are perfect, after all.

[dwn]

I agree there are many holes in Graendal's plan. I'm trying to explain her thought process (as I understand it) rather than justify the plot of the book.

 

Due to Perrin's ta'veren nature, any direct attack on him or his close allies would likely fail.

 

Eh, no. We the readers know that nearly all secondary and even teriary characters have plot armor. But nowhere in the cosmology does it say that ta'veren's allies are protected. Hawkwing's first family was murdered, for instance and his heirs subverted/killed. This is what drives me batty about on-screen WoT villain action - you can't touch a ta'veren with any real hope of success? Fine. Start to chip away at their support structure. It can work. Ishamael made it work with Hawkwing.

 

Ta'veren affect all threads of the pattern around them. From an extremely paranoid view (i.e. Graendal), attacking someone caught up in a ta'veren's thread could easily be tantamount to attacking the ta'veren himself.

 

If the Whitecloaks hadn't delayed Perrin, he'd have faced Graendal's shadowspawn while actively trying to avoid the leadership role the Pattern was pushing him into. An ambush at that point would have likely broken Perrin's forces and possibly Perrin himself.

 

But Mat was very successful on the battlefield indeed when actively trying to avoid the leadership role. As was Perrin versus the Shaido. It is very unclear if Graendal would have been more successful at this earlier date.

 

Even a cursory infiltration of Perrin's camp would reveal his crisis of leadership. An ambush at that time would play into Perrin's doubts, and those of his followers.

 

Galad threw a wrench into that.

 

So, she should have done something about it. Surely, a bit of subtle Compulsion on prominent Whitecloaks, + a couple of easily staged provocations should have caused a battle?

 

The Pattern had already tied Byar to Perrin, and by 'tweaking' his hate into near insanity, she was, in effect, working within the Pattern to encourage the outcome she wanted.

 

Why only Byar and not Bornhald too? Both seemed equally tied to Perrin. Not to mention that banking on Byar surviving long enough and getting close enough to Perrin to do any damage was something that only Mat could afford to do. Incredibly sloppy, wouldn't you say?

 

And again, why not have a barrage of attacks from different sides prepared, to increase chaos/vulnerability of Perrin? Why not have attacks on Perrin's allies during the same battle prepared, so that she could claim at least partial success? Contingencies, contingencies - Graendal was supposed to be good at those, after all. It was time to go all-in and do as much damage as possible.

 

Yet Graendal must ask herself why the Whitecloaks appeared to perfectly interfere with her plan. She has to tread lightly with that sort of thing. And she did apparently twist at least one Whitecloak--the one who needed the least nudging to become obsessed with killing Perrin.

 

Light attacks from all sides might work, or they might snap Perrin out of his sulk and cause his people to band together. They could cause more paranoia among the Whitecloaks, or they could force Galad into an alliance with Perrin. One swift hammer blow at the right time, on the other hand, could break them all.

 

In the AoL, the dreamspikes were likely guarded by Aes Sedai or dreamwalkers in T'A'R.

 

Yet Graendal thought that she could use the dreamspike to defend her base against other surviving Chosen... who are all dreamwalkers. And I doubt that she intended to spend all her time in T'AR guarding it either.

 

A dreamspike is still a better defence than no dreamspike. Given time, she might have been able to ward it some way as well. We saw the wards around Callandor extend into T'A'R.

 

Her big mistake was in panicking and going in for the kill prematurely. She should have backed off and taken time to reassess the situation.

 

No, she knew that Moridin/SH wouldn't allow her any more time, not after she lost the dreamspike. It was do or fall. Except that for some extremely contrived reason Graendal didn't do her all even so.

 

Personally, I find it to be one of the lamer and more inept among the Shadow plots and totally unworthy of a supposed genius as per LTT.

 

I agree she didn't have much time, but it was still a mistake.

 

I have two main problems with Graendal's plan. The first is that Graendal shifting focus from Rand to Perrin felt like a non sequitur. Graendal should have retreated into the shadows to wreak havoc on Min and Nynaeve as she initially planned. Moghedion would have been a better pick to mess with Perrin.

 

The second is that using Perrin's own ta'veren effect to bring about his downfall is the sort of thing that should be constructed over 3-4 books. As you mentioned above, Graendal is supposed to be one for long, convoluted plots. That it was conceived, executed and failed all within about 30 days makes the plan come across much more foolish than it is.

 

-- dwn

[Viperswhip]

I want to know how Isam became so badass in the dream. Ishy was definitely bound for long portion of Isam's life, and I don't see him being a Zen teacher like Hopper, so what gives?

[Jeangray]

We saw the wards around Callandor extend into T'A'R.

 

So we did, but apparently somebody good in the dreamworld could have just disbelieved them and they would have been gone. Of course, it's neither here nor there, since it would have had no effect on real Callandor and real wards. But a real dreamspike would be actually there for the taking. Still, one has to wonder why various FS didn't just imagine powerful sa'angreal they knew back in AoL during T'AR battles. After all, if a'dam works, so should other imagined *angreal...

 

Graendal should have retreated into the shadows to wreak havoc on Min and Nynaeve as she initially planned

 

But by your own logic, both would be as untouchable as Rand himself. After all, they are tied to Rand far more tightly than any of Perrin's allies bar Faile are tied to him. In fact, Nynaeve is tied to all 3 ta'veren, even. There is much more evidence that the crew that left TR and Rand's bonded girls are truly partially protected by his ta'verenness than that anybody in Perrin's entourage is similarly protected. Remember Rand feeling that threads critical to him were in danger in Falme and Ishy's taunts re: "those who could have saved you will be taken across the Aryth Ocean" or something similar.

 

Really, if Perrin's entourage and the WCs were as invulnerable as you claim, then FS should just pack up and go home.

People around Mat don't seem to be as safe as all that either. Nor were Rand's Asha'man/Maidens, whom he did draw to himself...

 

However you look at Graendal's "plan" re: Perrin it doesn't make sense. IMHO, even Moghedien would have been too much for credibility. Slayer working alone would be feasible, if barely.

[dwn]

We saw the wards around Callandor extend into T'A'R.

 

So we did, but apparently somebody good in the dreamworld could have just disbelieved them and they would have been gone. Of course, it's neither here nor there, since it would have had no effect on real Callandor and real wards. But a real dreamspike would be actually there for the taking. Still, one has to wonder why various FS didn't just imagine powerful sa'angreal they knew back in AoL during T'AR battles. After all, if a'dam works, so should other imagined *angreal...

 

No argument there. The logic of T'A'R is illogical.

 

Graendal should have retreated into the shadows to wreak havoc on Min and Nynaeve as she initially planned

 

But by your own logic, both would be as untouchable as Rand himself. After all, they are tied to Rand far more tightly than any of Perrin's allies bar Faile are tied to him. In fact, Nynaeve is tied to all 3 ta'veren, even. There is much more evidence that the crew that left TR and Rand's bonded girls are truly partially protected by his ta'verenness than that anybody in Perrin's entourage is similarly protected. Remember Rand feeling that threads critical to him were in danger in Falme and Ishy's taunts re: "those who could have saved you will be taken across the Aryth Ocean" or something similar.

 

Really, if Perrin's entourage and the WCs were as invulnerable as you claim, then FS should just pack up and go home.

People around Mat don't seem to be as safe as all that either. Nor were Rand's Asha'man/Maidens, whom he did draw to himself...

 

However you look at Graendal's "plan" re: Perrin it doesn't make sense. IMHO, even Moghedien would have been too much for credibility. Slayer working alone would be feasible, if barely.

 

I think an attack against Min would require great caution given how closely tied she is to Rand. Nynaeve slightly less so. Still, it would have at least kept continuity with Graendal's previous shenanigans. I only chose Moghedion because she's the only Chosen without an obvious full-time job at the moment.

 

I'm not claiming everyone around Perrin is invulnerable. That's an exaggeration. But think how you might approach killing someone whom reality itself is trying to keep alive. A large push against fate will likely backfire, yet a series of small nudges might run him off a metaphorical cliff.

 

To me, her plan makes sense. The execution of it in the book leaves something to be desired.

 

-- dwn

[AutomatedTeller]

I don't think the wards around Callandor would disapear in dreamworld if disbelieved - at least not necessarily. The dream spike didn't disappear - Perring had to move it around. it's quite possible those wards are built the same way...

 

I'm really not sure why Grey Men aren't wreaking havoc on the secondary characters right now - I mean, early in the series, Ishy's 13 were sending them out like water (though, for super awesome impossible to detect assassins, they were pretty detectable and didn't really kill many people)

 

But I'd guess that a most of the Tairen, Illian, Cairhienin and Seanchan nobility could be wiped out in a day with a coordinated attack, throwing those armies into confusion.

[Viperswhip]

I don't think the wards around Callandor would disapear in dreamworld if disbelieved - at least not necessarily. The dream spike didn't disappear - Perring had to move it around. it's quite possible those wards are built the same way...

 

I'm really not sure why Grey Men aren't wreaking havoc on the secondary characters right now - I mean, early in the series, Ishy's 13 were sending them out like water (though, for super awesome impossible to detect assassins, they were pretty detectable and didn't really kill many people)

 

But I'd guess that a most of the Tairen, Illian, Cairhienin and Seanchan nobility could be wiped out in a day with a coordinated attack, throwing those armies into confusion.

 

Ya if, Semi was able to wipe out the entire Seanchan royal family, whilst they were no doubt protect by damane, then surely the Forsaken could have been starting wars of succession in every country they didn't want to run.

[FarShainMael]

I want to know how Isam became so badass in the dream. Ishy was definitely bound for long portion of Isam's life, and I don't see him being a Zen teacher like Hopper, so what gives?

 

Also, why is Luc so intent on killing his nephew?

 

Was there a joint 13*13?

 

Back to Graendal: there's a curious thing in the glossary:

A ruthless killer, she was responsible for the deaths of Aran'gar and Asmodean, and the destruction of Mesaana.'

 

Hang on.. wasn't it Eggy who destroyed Messy, by breaking her mind?

[dwn]

Back to Graendal: there's a curious thing in the glossary:

A ruthless killer, she was responsible for the deaths of Aran'gar and Asmodean, and the destruction of Mesaana.'

 

Hang on.. wasn't it Eggy who destroyed Messy, by breaking her mind?

 

Graendal lost control of the dreamspike which trapped Mesaana, and prevented her and the BA from luring Egwene into an ambush.

 

-- dwn

[grolm]

How does Granny even survive the balefire strike to start with? I mean, Rand was using lots of OP through the Choden Kal to wipe out the entire fortress, but Graendal has enough warning to act before her thread is burned back?

 

In TDR when Moiraine BFs Bel'al he shouts "No!" just before he dies from her small balefiring.

 

Seems to me by the time Granny realizes what Rand is up to it would already be too late for her to escape the effects of balefire, especially as Aran'gar and Delana place the weaves on Ramshalam before GRanny tries to escape, yet they are burned out far enough back in time that the weaves are gone. If their actions are toast that far back in the timeline, why weren't Graendal's efforts to escape, which she starts after they use Complusion as Granny orders, undone?

 

To give her a way out, an escape from certain death, to fail so spectacularly was disappointing.

 

Her plan wasn't too bad, actually. Shows more forethought than most other Foresaken thinking. Byar being manipulated would have worked save for Perrin's Ta'verin nature changing Bornhold's feelings enough that he is willing to kill his friend to save Perrin.

 

Going after vulnerable people around Perrin would just alert him that something was up sooner than later, and she wanted him unaware of any "plan" until the chaos of battle could open an opportunity.

[FarShainMael]

Back to Graendal: there's a curious thing in the glossary:

A ruthless killer, she was responsible for the deaths of Aran'gar and Asmodean, and the destruction of Mesaana.'

 

Hang on.. wasn't it Eggy who destroyed Messy, by breaking her mind?

 

Graendal lost control of the dreamspike which trapped Mesaana, and prevented her and the BA from luring Egwene into an ambush.

 

-- dwn

 

I see what you're saying, but I would argue that Mesaana was responsible for her own destruction by attacking Egwene. But that's JMO.

[nolirion]

Back to Graendal: there's a curious thing in the glossary:

A ruthless killer, she was responsible for the deaths of Aran'gar and Asmodean, and the destruction of Mesaana.'

 

Hang on.. wasn't it Eggy who destroyed Messy, by breaking her mind?

 

Graendal lost control of the dreamspike which trapped Mesaana, and prevented her and the BA from luring Egwene into an ambush.

 

-- dwn

 

I see what you're saying, but I would argue that Mesaana was responsible for her own destruction by attacking Egwene. But that's JMO.

Mesaana wasn't order to kill Egwene ? I mean if Perrin did not put the dreamspike in Tar'valon she could , as she planned it , have retreat

[FarShainMael]

Then surely, her destruction was the responsibility of the person giving that order?

[nolirion]

Then surely, her destruction was the responsibility of the person giving that order?

The Do you mean ? if you go on that Road the creator is responsible for everything happening, I mean bad thing , cause he created the pattern .

Utterly it was Graendal failure because she lost control of her tool , she knew tanks to Morridin that Perrin did walk the wolf dream.

 

I wonder if Egwene will tanks Perrin for that

[grolm]

In the Epilogue, pg 829, Granny POV reveals she has begun "placing strings around their new childlike Empress." Who is the DF around Fortuona? Galgan? Beslan?

 

Galgan worked against Suroth, but that doesn't mean he isn't also a DF, just one with a different mistress.

 

Beslan's behavior since his scene in GS has been off from what we learned of him prior from interactions with Mat. Did he abandon his rebellion, which would have added to the Chaos in the world, under orders?

 

I wonder if we will learn, as Granny thinks she will have to abandon these new strings as a result of her failure to kill Perrin.

[didymos]

How does Granny even survive the balefire strike to start with? I mean, Rand was using lots of OP through the Choden Kal to wipe out the entire fortress, but Graendal has enough warning to act before her thread is burned back?

 

Because she wasn't actually hit with the balefire, which is sort of a requirement for the being able to kill you part. I.e., she dodged it (via gateway).

 

Or to put it in terms Morbo from Futurama might use: BALEFIRE DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!

[FarShainMael]

Then surely, her destruction was the responsibility of the person giving that order?

The Do you mean ? if you go on that Road the creator is responsible for everything happening, I mean bad thing , cause he created the pattern .

Utterly it was Graendal failure because she lost control of her tool , she knew tanks to Morridin that Perrin did walk the wolf dream.

 

I wonder if Egwene will tanks Perrin for that

 

That's my point, really. Graendal's task was to destroy Egwene, but one can't blame the giver of the order, or the problem with the dreamspike, for her failure to do so; only Mesanna's failure of judgment. She could have backed off and waited for a better opportunity. However, I don't think that would have helped; the outcome was inevitable given Eg's chosen defence.

[grolm]

How does Granny even survive the balefire strike to start with? I mean, Rand was using lots of OP through the Choden Kal to wipe out the entire fortress, but Graendal has enough warning to act before her thread is burned back?

 

Because she wasn't actually hit with the balefire, which is sort of a requirement for the being able to kill you part. I.e., she dodged it (via gateway).

 

Or to put it in terms Morbo from Futurama might use: BALEFIRE DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!

 

Yea I get that you have to be hit to have your thread in the pattern burned backwards. A harrowing, narrow escape for Graendal. Interesting to see her thought process, especially about Rand, but I found the whole thing rather conveniently constructed.