Discuss Aviendha's Arc

[johthohar]

Also, if not for a 'main' weaving, then why would Balefiring someone make a difference to the pattern? Why would it begin to fall apart with excessive use? All bale would do is remove a few cities from the pattern, and the weaving would go a different way. However, that's not the case... even the dark followers realize the danger if the pattern is disrupted to that extent... Just my thoughts :)

 

I always thought of balefire in relation to the Pattern as more of a literal analogy. Like if you had cloth being woven on a loom and you cut too many of the threads then eventually the cloth would unravel and fall apart as it is woven. But if only a few threads at a time were cut the pattern would close around them and continue weaving in a different way. Or maybe they would be replaced with threads of a different color/thickness/material. The results would be miniscule at first but the cumulative effect over great periods of time would be vastly different.

[Kidicaris]

And people insist on calling him "Ishy" like he's some cute little digipet on your Nintendo DS. Makes me sick.

 

Yes, because saving some typing time is just awful. Screw those carpal tunnel fools: full names or GTFO!

Like I said before, no judgment for people who do use these names. I realize the intention was not to fluff the words up. It just annoys me. But this is probably going to start annoying people since it is COMPLETELY off topic. Haha.

 

Hahaha. I've always thought the nicknames were endearing, what else could you call such ineffective villains? But I'm also nostalgic, these names have their roots on the newsgroups I used to go to manyyyyyy years ago (raswrj holla). Count yourself lucky that these nicknames existed before the advent of combined celebrity names like Bennifer... Can you imagine the names we might have? Morryndane, Ramin, Egawyn, Berelad... >.> I'll. must. be. STOPPED.

[anthonypero]

What people seem to be forgetting is that the past IS the future, and the future IS the past. All of this has occured before. All this will happen again. Due to this, I believe that there is a lot of weight to the notion that if the past is a true vision, then the future vision will be true as well.

 

And what you seem to be forgetting is that things can be changed. No two iterations of the same Age are identical, and the more iterations, the greater the differences. And not all visions are certainties. That and the Pattern is currently being disrupted by the DO. Many of the things happening are not supposed to be happening. Time may be circular, but it is not eternally fixed into one unchangeable Pattern. If it were, there would be no possibility of the DO escaping. The Prophecies wouldn't say that Rand only has a chance to win.

And what YOU (or is it you? or you! ;) seem to forget is fortelling and min's visions. They are fixed visions of the future. They always come to pass. So, the future can be read, so therefore is is fixed. This is a fatalistic universe, our WoT. The Pattern cannot be fought. Free will is an illusion, on the grand scale, etc... The wildcard is the DO, who exists outside the Pattern.

[anthonypero]

Also, say what you want about these scenes... they are ridiculously well-written. For crying out loud, 3 chapters have generated 22 pages on this forum in under 10 days. For stuff that is ultimately irrelevant to the story we are all reading. Crazy.

[Emily_Sedai]

What people seem to be forgetting is that the past IS the future, and the future IS the past. All of this has occured before. All this will happen again. Due to this, I believe that there is a lot of weight to the notion that if the past is a true vision, then the future vision will be true as well.

 

And what you seem to be forgetting is that things can be changed. No two iterations of the same Age are identical, and the more iterations, the greater the differences. And not all visions are certainties. That and the Pattern is currently being disrupted by the DO. Many of the things happening are not supposed to be happening. Time may be circular, but it is not eternally fixed into one unchangeable Pattern. If it were, there would be no possibility of the DO escaping. The Prophecies wouldn't say that Rand only has a chance to win.

And what YOU (or is it you? or you! ;) seem to forget is fortelling and min's visions. They are fixed visions of the future. They always come to pass. So, the future can be read, so therefore is is fixed. This is a fatalistic universe, our WoT. The Pattern cannot be fought. Free will is an illusion, on the grand scale, etc... The wildcard is the DO, who exists outside the Pattern.

 

Thank you Anthony : ) I always find that the WOT fandom is a bit.... excitable... at times, and that was a great example! Starting to remind me of why I have 40 posts after three years of membership on this site... I just can't help it though when a new book comes out *laugh* I guess my general 'what people seem to be forgetting' elicited quite a strong reaction, hehehe

[anthonypero]

What people seem to be forgetting is that the past IS the future, and the future IS the past. All of this has occured before. All this will happen again. Due to this, I believe that there is a lot of weight to the notion that if the past is a true vision, then the future vision will be true as well.

 

And what you seem to be forgetting is that things can be changed. No two iterations of the same Age are identical, and the more iterations, the greater the differences. And not all visions are certainties. That and the Pattern is currently being disrupted by the DO. Many of the things happening are not supposed to be happening. Time may be circular, but it is not eternally fixed into one unchangeable Pattern. If it were, there would be no possibility of the DO escaping. The Prophecies wouldn't say that Rand only has a chance to win.

And what YOU (or is it you? or you! ;) seem to forget is fortelling and min's visions. They are fixed visions of the future. They always come to pass. So, the future can be read, so therefore is is fixed. This is a fatalistic universe, our WoT. The Pattern cannot be fought. Free will is an illusion, on the grand scale, etc... The wildcard is the DO, who exists outside the Pattern.

 

Thank you Anthony : ) I always find that the WOT fandom is a bit.... excitable... at times, and that was a great example! Starting to remind me of why I have 40 posts after three years of membership on this site... I just can't help it though when a new book comes out *laugh* I guess my general 'what people seem to be forgetting' elicited quite a strong reaction, hehehe

 

Anytime. I'm currently being butchered on this thread for challenging a few assumptions people have held for a long time. I'm trying to be polite, and nice, but it's hard sometimes, so forgive us all for our excitability, please :)

[johthohar]

And what YOU (or is it you? or you! ;) seem to forget is fortelling and min's visions. They are fixed visions of the future. They always come to pass. So, the future can be read, so therefore is is fixed. This is a fatalistic universe, our WoT. The Pattern cannot be fought. Free will is an illusion, on the grand scale, etc... The wildcard is the DO, who exists outside the Pattern.

 

And what YOOOUU seem to be forgetting (or actually not noticing/mentioning/thinking about?) is that most of the time Min's visions take place in the immediate future. It's totally plausible for visions a week/month/year/2-3 years into the future to be fixed/unavoidable. I think Min's viewings that she KNOWS are going to happen are of events that were already made inescapable by things that have taken place before hand. And then there are some where she can't see the meaning that aren't certain yet or might turn out one of several ways. Then there are those of whom she has no viewings at all because they have no "fixed" future. Only likely futures. Just my opinion.

[didymos]

I thought channeling was a recessive genetic trait? This would allow a population of channelers to continue to exist as long as non-sparkers kept having children--even if all sparkers were collard and never allowed to breed.

Hm, but now that I think about it the Seanchan also find EVERY non-sparker (sul'dam). But there are always the men who are not found who can be the genetic source of channeling.

 

It's partially genetic:

 

RJ's blog 2 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"

 

For Papazen, while I have spoken of souls being born with the ability to channel in response to questions, I think of it as being genetic also. In the Age of Legends, between 2 and 3% of people had some ability, following a bell curve distribution in strength. For over 3000 years, though, Aes Sedai have been removing men who actually learned to channel from the gene pool. They have been very efficient at this. As a result, the “present day” sees about 1% of the population who can learn to channel, with a much, much smaller percentage of that being born with the spark.

 

Knife of Dreams book tour 27 October 2005, Half Moon Bay - Chris reporting

 

There were a few questions about his series, one that I asked was: if channeling was genetic, did the Forsaken need bodies that were genetically compatible for them to be able to use the power?

 

His answer was that channeling is not just a recessive or dominant gene, rather both genetic and in the soul.

 

But the basic "Can channel" ability to channel is tied to the soul:

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Sandy, UT 5 December 2009 - kavorca reporting

 

Ability to Channel/Souls. I think this has all been reported, but he stated definitively that the ability to channel is tied to soul. He stated definitively that the spark was not tied to the soul but could be affected by a specific body (i.e., if you had the spark in one life, you could be reborn and just have the ability to learn.) He stated with 85% probability that strength in the Power was not tied to soul, meaning that if you were an uber-channeler in one body, you could be weak in the Power in your next body.

 

The above stuff goes to show, though, why completely eradicating channeling by culling it out is basically impossible. You can make it very rare in general, and sparking vanishingly rare (or possibly eliminate the allele for a time until a new mutation makes sparking possible again), but unless someone can alter souls or somehow prevent them from being born, or destroy them outright the ability will always exist. Of course, RJ has said there are Ages with no channeling, so all I can think of is that either the Wheel just doesn't spin out channeler souls during those times, or RJ meant it was so rare at times that sparkers were temporarily eliminated and/or there was effectively nobody to learn from. I.e., no channeling for all intents and purposes, even though a small number people who might have learned had they lived under different conditions exist.

 

Anyway...

 

So the main allele apparently determines the sparker/learner bit. There likely are others which influence things like Talents, strengths in the Five Powers, and overall OP strength. Then there're genes that will effect general channeling talent but aren't solely related to channeling: things like innate intelligence, how good a person's memory is, et cetera.

[anthonypero]

And what YOU (or is it you? or you! ;) seem to forget is fortelling and min's visions. They are fixed visions of the future. They always come to pass. So, the future can be read, so therefore is is fixed. This is a fatalistic universe, our WoT. The Pattern cannot be fought. Free will is an illusion, on the grand scale, etc... The wildcard is the DO, who exists outside the Pattern.

 

And what YOOOUU seem to be forgetting (or actually not noticing/mentioning/thinking about?) is that most of the time Min's visions take place in the immediate future. It's totally plausible for visions a week/month/year/2-3 years into the future to be fixed/unavoidable. I think Min's viewings that she KNOWS are going to happen are of events that were already made inescapable by things that have taken place before hand. And then there are some where she can't see the meaning that aren't certain yet or might turn out one of several ways. Then there are those of whom she has no viewings at all because they have no "fixed" future. Only likely futures. Just my opinion.

 

I can be reasonable about it. My point was that the future can be fixed. Also, I DO think all of those 3000 year old prophecies are visions of a fixed future. They are all coming true after all. There may be wiggle room in the little things, but the big things are fixed... unless the DO destroys the Wheel.

[Kidicaris]

I thought channeling was a recessive genetic trait? This would allow a population of channelers to continue to exist as long as non-sparkers kept having children--even if all sparkers were collard and never allowed to breed.

Hm, but now that I think about it the Seanchan also find EVERY non-sparker (sul'dam). But there are always the men who are not found who can be the genetic source of channeling.

 

It's partially genetic:

 

RJ's blog 2 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"

 

For Papazen, while I have spoken of souls being born with the ability to channel in response to questions, I think of it as being genetic also. In the Age of Legends, between 2 and 3% of people had some ability, following a bell curve distribution in strength. For over 3000 years, though, Aes Sedai have been removing men who actually learned to channel from the gene pool. They have been very efficient at this. As a result, the “present day” sees about 1% of the population who can learn to channel, with a much, much smaller percentage of that being born with the spark.

 

Knife of Dreams book tour 27 October 2005, Half Moon Bay - Chris reporting

 

There were a few questions about his series, one that I asked was: if channeling was genetic, did the Forsaken need bodies that were genetically compatible for them to be able to use the power?

 

His answer was that channeling is not just a recessive or dominant gene, rather both genetic and in the soul.

 

But the basic "Can channel" ability to channel is tied to the soul:

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Sandy, UT 5 December 2009 - kavorca reporting

 

Ability to Channel/Souls. I think this has all been reported, but he stated definitively that the ability to channel is tied to soul. He stated definitively that the spark was not tied to the soul but could be affected by a specific body (i.e., if you had the spark in one life, you could be reborn and just have the ability to learn.) He stated with 85% probability that strength in the Power was not tied to soul, meaning that if you were an uber-channeler in one body, you could be weak in the Power in your next body.

 

The above stuff goes to show, though, why completely eradicating channeling by culling it out is basically impossible. You can make it very rare in general, and sparking vanishingly rare (or possibly eliminate the allele for a time until a new mutation makes sparking possible again), but unless someone can alter souls or somehow prevent them from being born, or destroy them outright the ability will always exist. Of course, RJ has said there are Ages with no channeling, so all I can think of is that either the Wheel just doesn't spin out channeler souls during those times, or RJ meant it was so rare at times that sparkers were temporarily eliminated and/or there was effectively nobody to learn from. I.e., no channeling for all intents and purposes, even though a small number people who might have learned had they lived under different conditions exist.

 

Anyway...

 

So the main allele apparently determines the sparker/learner bit. There likely are others which influence things like Talents, strengths in the Five Powers, and overall OP strength. Then there're genes that will effect general channeling talent but aren't solely related to channeling: things like innate intelligence, how good a person's memory is, et cetera.

 

Amazing. Thanks for the information.

[johthohar]

And what YOU (or is it you? or you! ;) seem to forget is fortelling and min's visions. They are fixed visions of the future. They always come to pass. So, the future can be read, so therefore is is fixed. This is a fatalistic universe, our WoT. The Pattern cannot be fought. Free will is an illusion, on the grand scale, etc... The wildcard is the DO, who exists outside the Pattern.

 

And what YOOOUU seem to be forgetting (or actually not noticing/mentioning/thinking about?) is that most of the time Min's visions take place in the immediate future. It's totally plausible for visions a week/month/year/2-3 years into the future to be fixed/unavoidable. I think Min's viewings that she KNOWS are going to happen are of events that were already made inescapable by things that have taken place before hand. And then there are some where she can't see the meaning that aren't certain yet or might turn out one of several ways. Then there are those of whom she has no viewings at all because they have no "fixed" future. Only likely futures. Just my opinion.

 

I can be reasonable about it. My point was that the future can be fixed. Also, I DO think all of those 3000 year old prophecies are visions of a fixed future. They are all coming true after all. There may be wiggle room in the little things, but the big things are fixed... unless the DO destroys the Wheel.

 

Absolutely. I have never said that I am certain I was right. But my opinion is that very little about prophecy in general is absolute. Min's visions being the exception rather than the rule which is why she so rarely has them. I know they have been occurring more frequently as the books go on but I think it's because all the pivotal events surrounding the preparation for the LB are causing more "fixed futures" to come into being. But like you said its entirely possible that I'm dead wrong and everything is predetermined. Still, within the bounds of my theory I still think Aviendha's second trip visions are a possibility. But only ONE OF the possibilities.

[anthonypero]

I think I figured it out. I know where Rand is going when he "leaves" the Aiel. Whether or not Avi's vision was true, the Aiel will be destroyed, and only a remnant of a remnant will be saved. What if the Ogier decide to delay opening the Book of Translations till after TG, so they can fight alongside the humans in it. What if afterward, the Ogier decide to leave the world and open the book of translations... and offer to take the Aiel, whom they are connected with because of the AoL magic trees, with them. Most of the Aiel reject this, but a remnant of a remnant decide to go with them.., including Rand and Aviendha. And Min, just because.

 

Gosh, I like that.

 

EDIT: And Elayne goes with them to. That explains why she's not in Oncala's vision of Caemlyn.

[didymos]

What people seem to be forgetting is that the past IS the future, and the future IS the past. All of this has occured before. All this will happen again. Due to this, I believe that there is a lot of weight to the notion that if the past is a true vision, then the future vision will be true as well.

 

And what you seem to be forgetting is that things can be changed. No two iterations of the same Age are identical, and the more iterations, the greater the differences. And not all visions are certainties. That and the Pattern is currently being disrupted by the DO. Many of the things happening are not supposed to be happening. Time may be circular, but it is not eternally fixed into one unchangeable Pattern. If it were, there would be no possibility of the DO escaping. The Prophecies wouldn't say that Rand only has a chance to win.

And what YOU (or is it you? or you! ;) seem to forget is fortelling and min's visions. They are fixed visions of the future. They always come to pass. So, the future can be read, so therefore is is fixed. This is a fatalistic universe, our WoT. The Pattern cannot be fought. Free will is an illusion, on the grand scale, etc... The wildcard is the DO, who exists outside the Pattern.

 

Thank you Anthony : ) I always find that the WOT fandom is a bit.... excitable... at times, and that was a great example! Starting to remind me of why I have 40 posts after three years of membership on this site... I just can't help it though when a new book comes out *laugh* I guess my general 'what people seem to be forgetting' elicited quite a strong reaction, hehehe

 

Ah, so disagreement with you means someone is just "excitable". OK. Sure.

[Emily_Sedai]

I think I figured it out. I know where Rand is going when he "leaves" the Aiel. Whether or not Avi's vision was true, the Aiel will be destroyed, and only a remnant of a remnant will be saved. What if the Ogier decide to delay opening the Book of Translations till after TG, so they can fight alongside the humans in it. What if afterward, the Ogier decide to leave the world and open the book of translations... and offer to take the Aiel, whom they are connected with because of the AoL magic trees, with them. Most of the Aiel reject this, but a remnant of a remnant decide to go with them.., including Rand and Aviendha. And Min, just because.

 

Gosh, I like that.

 

EDIT: And Elayne goes with them to. That explains why she's not in Oncala's vision of Caemlyn.

 

Hmm, interesting theory, but not sure about it... I always imagined that Rand would end up in Tel. along with the other heros of the wheel. It's possible though, we know from B.S. that the Ogier are at least going to be around in the next book, and I'd bet we're all pretty sure that they will take part in the last battle with our favorite youngen there to convince them.

 

Actually, I'm thinking that some of the Ogier may open the book of translation and leave the world before TG... we know that Loial has to be around past TG for a while, because in the preface of ToM, the passage is from his book... either that, or they don't elect to use the book at all for a while after TG, to give Loial time to create his book.

 

I'm still not sure how much guess work there is to the future though... I mean, the prophecies of the Dragon have been around since the original breaking, and seem to be coming true as stated... they knew back then that Callandor would need to be housed in Tear until the Dragon came to claim it. I guess that to me pretty much ensures that the future is already written out... otherwise, how come no channeler over the thousand years never managed to grab the sword? To me, the wheel dictated that only Rand could touch it, and lo and behold, that's what happened ;) The foretellings seem pretty darn accurate to me *laugh*

[anthonypero]

What people seem to be forgetting is that the past IS the future, and the future IS the past. All of this has occured before. All this will happen again. Due to this, I believe that there is a lot of weight to the notion that if the past is a true vision, then the future vision will be true as well.

 

And what you seem to be forgetting is that things can be changed. No two iterations of the same Age are identical, and the more iterations, the greater the differences. And not all visions are certainties. That and the Pattern is currently being disrupted by the DO. Many of the things happening are not supposed to be happening. Time may be circular, but it is not eternally fixed into one unchangeable Pattern. If it were, there would be no possibility of the DO escaping. The Prophecies wouldn't say that Rand only has a chance to win.

And what YOU (or is it you? or you! ;) seem to forget is fortelling and min's visions. They are fixed visions of the future. They always come to pass. So, the future can be read, so therefore is is fixed. This is a fatalistic universe, our WoT. The Pattern cannot be fought. Free will is an illusion, on the grand scale, etc... The wildcard is the DO, who exists outside the Pattern.

 

Thank you Anthony : ) I always find that the WOT fandom is a bit.... excitable... at times, and that was a great example! Starting to remind me of why I have 40 posts after three years of membership on this site... I just can't help it though when a new book comes out *laugh* I guess my general 'what people seem to be forgetting' elicited quite a strong reaction, hehehe

 

Ah, so disagreement with you means someone is just "excitable". OK. Sure.

EDIT: Forget... I don't even want to participate in this.

[didymos]

And what YOU (or is it you? or you! ;) seem to forget is fortelling and min's visions. They are fixed visions of the future. They always come to pass. So, the future can be read, so therefore is is fixed. This is a fatalistic universe, our WoT. The Pattern cannot be fought. Free will is an illusion, on the grand scale, etc... The wildcard is the DO, who exists outside the Pattern.

 

No, didn't forget: I said not ALL visions are certainties. I didn't say that NONE were. Also: Min has been known to have indeterminate either/or visions. Two, to be specific. You're also contradicted by RJ himself:

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, BYU Midnight Release 27 October 2009 - Jennifer McBride reporting

Question (Luke): Has anyone ever had the same ability as Min? And do you know how it is caused or how the ability works?

 

Answer: The ability works quite explicitly from her being able to see glimmers in the Pattern. She is seeing what is being woven in the future and that is how most of the Foretelling powers work. He was actually pretty explicit in the notes about that. Though some of them of course, there are ones that are strict, meaning they see the Pattern, some of them you see how the Pattern might be. She sees the Pattern as it will be. Has anyone ever had it before? Yeah, from what I read it never said it explicitly, but it implied that this is a power that could exist again and has existed before, but there are no lists of anyone that’s had it before. It’s definitely open that somebody could have had it before, but he doesn’t actually say specifically.

 

RJ's blog 4 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"

 

- I think of time in this world as fixed circular, but with a drifting variation. There are slight differences in the Pattern each time through so that if you thought of the Pattern as a tapestry and held up two successive weaves, you couldn’t see any differences from a distance, only close up, but the more time turnings between tapestries, the more changes are apparent. But the basic Pattern always remains the same.

 

AOL Chat #1 - 27 June 1996

Rog in CT: Because the Wheel of Time contains the Dark One's prison, and the Ages repeat with each revolution, then isn't humanity itself also imprisoned . . . . unable to truly evolve?

RJ: No. :)

 

And the text itself has many, many instances of characters explaining that things can be changed, and that even Prophecies can fail. For instance, what the Aelfinn told Mat: skip Rhuidean, and you sidestep the thread of fate and your destiny won't be fulfilled. Another example being Loial explaining how ta'veren will often have less freedom to choose than normal folk. In fact, it's people altering things that causes the Wheel to throw up correctives like ta'veren:

 

Kurafire: And the rest of the Shadowspawn?

RJ: What? Do they have souls you mean?

 

Kurafire: Yeah, and how do their threads work?

 

RJ: The threads work in the way, in the same way that the thread of any living thing works. It is part of the Pattern. They are not outside of the Pattern. Neither are the Forsaken. But the Pattern in a thing that is open, that's change. It is not a matter of the lives being forced necessarily. It's wide, you have the Pattern, the Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms. Human behavior is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. Put everything back in the balance. So not even the Forsaken are a part of that, they're not outside. The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.

 

and:

East of the Sun Con, Stockholm, Sweden June 1995 - Karl-Johan Norén reporting

When Moghedien ripped out Birgitte from Tel'aran'rhiod she "short-circuited" the Pattern, by bringing in an adult "in the flesh" instead of letting Birgitte join Gaidal Cain the "normal" way. He said also that Gaidal Cain may not have any role to play in Tarmon Gai'don.

 

In any case, you mentioned the DO. As did I, because that's one of things I'm talking about: he's made the Pattern screwy as of late, and that means there's more room for change:

 

Knife of Dreams book tour, Santa Cruz, CA 29 October 2005 - hermano de lobos reporting

 

...One person asked something to the effect of 'How valid are the viewings and prophecies, given that the pattern has been loosened?' There was also a comment by the person about how the viewings and prophecies are readings of the pattern.

 

Jordan responded (not word for word): The viewings and prophecies that occured before the loosening of the pattern are very valid. But those that occured at, or after, the loosening have a higher chance of not coming true.

 

Note it's not "a chance" but "a higher chance".

 

Then there's the stuff like the Wise One testing rings in Rhuidean, which show many possible paths which the Pattern might take. And lastly: Min's irrelevant anyway. Aviendha didn't get a viewing from her about the Aiel's future, and that's the vision we're actually talking about here. We have no way to know how unchangeable that sequence of events is. Just because the ter'angreal shows the true past doesn't mean it shows the inevitable future. We only have a single known case of it showing the future at all, so it's a tad premature to just declare it an infallible oracle and the future it showed a done deal, the Aiel are screwed no matter what. It could easily be that something right now is not in balance, and so the Wheel is "planning" to guide things towards that bleak Aiel future if nothing else is done to fix whatever the problem is.

 

(quotes from here:

 

https://docs.google....pjqg_98jfkf8vz3

https://docs.google....pjqg_74xw3j58sj )

[Emily_Sedai]

What people seem to be forgetting is that the past IS the future, and the future IS the past. All of this has occured before. All this will happen again. Due to this, I believe that there is a lot of weight to the notion that if the past is a true vision, then the future vision will be true as well.

 

And what you seem to be forgetting is that things can be changed. No two iterations of the same Age are identical, and the more iterations, the greater the differences. And not all visions are certainties. That and the Pattern is currently being disrupted by the DO. Many of the things happening are not supposed to be happening. Time may be circular, but it is not eternally fixed into one unchangeable Pattern. If it were, there would be no possibility of the DO escaping. The Prophecies wouldn't say that Rand only has a chance to win.

And what YOU (or is it you? or you! ;) seem to forget is fortelling and min's visions. They are fixed visions of the future. They always come to pass. So, the future can be read, so therefore is is fixed. This is a fatalistic universe, our WoT. The Pattern cannot be fought. Free will is an illusion, on the grand scale, etc... The wildcard is the DO, who exists outside the Pattern.

 

Thank you Anthony : ) I always find that the WOT fandom is a bit.... excitable... at times, and that was a great example! Starting to remind me of why I have 40 posts after three years of membership on this site... I just can't help it though when a new book comes out *laugh* I guess my general 'what people seem to be forgetting' elicited quite a strong reaction, hehehe

 

Ah, so disagreement with you means someone is just "excitable". OK. Sure.

 

Well, at least one other person found your 'you' interesting, so my "excitable" was a nice way of saying that you're a bit confrontational for no reason. Your post didn't have to be written in such a fashion calling me out directly. You could have just as easily have said 'Well, I believe this,' or 'That's interesting Emily, but I always thought this...', or 'I disagree with you because of x, y and z.' I don't really care if you disagree with me, I'm just expressing my ideas and my interpretation, based on the books.

 

Still curious about where the different iteration information came from...

[johthohar]

Also, say what you want about these scenes... they are ridiculously well-written. For crying out loud, 3 chapters have generated 22 pages on this forum in under 10 days. For stuff that is ultimately irrelevant to the story we are all reading. Crazy.

QFMFT

[johthohar]

Well, at least one other person found your 'you' interesting, so my "excitable" was a nice way of saying that you're a bit confrontational for no reason. Your post didn't have to be written in such a fashion calling me out directly. You could have just as easily have said 'Well, I believe this,' or 'That's interesting Emily, but I always thought this...', or 'I disagree with you because of x, y and z.' I don't really care if you disagree with me, I'm just expressing my ideas and my interpretation, based on the books.

 

Still curious about where the different iteration information came from...

 

Were you referring to me here? Cause I just found the inferred (and then not so inferred) increasing emphasis on "you" to be amusing. And I am excitable. And generally amiable even if my tone comes across as bitter and/or sarcastic. If I sound like I'm being a **** (EDIT: jerk) I'm almost always joking but tone is hard to convey via text. I have a hard time tolerating stupid people but they seem to be rare here and I try my best to ignore the ones I come across.

[Hallow]

It seems fairly obvious to me that Nakomi is the last remaining member/descendant of the Jenn Aiel, didn't Aviendha explain her as "Not quite a Wise One, but there was something about her" (paraphrasing) and she did seem to be Aiel.

[Hallow]

Didnt realize theres a thread for my previous post. My apologies.

[nleseul]

It seems fairly obvious to me that Nakomi is the last remaining member/descendant of the Jenn Aiel, didn't Aviendha explain her as "Not quite a Wise One, but there was something about her" (paraphrasing) and she did seem to be Aiel.

 

Coincidentally, "not quite a Wise One" is a perfect description of Aviendha's own sense of herself at that point. Yet another thing that supports her being a manifestation of Aviendha's own subconscious thought processes, either in a fatigue-induced hallucination or just a plain, ordinary (non-TAR) dream.

[Emily_Sedai]

Well, at least one other person found your 'you' interesting, so my "excitable" was a nice way of saying that you're a bit confrontational for no reason. Your post didn't have to be written in such a fashion calling me out directly. You could have just as easily have said 'Well, I believe this,' or 'That's interesting Emily, but I always thought this...', or 'I disagree with you because of x, y and z.' I don't really care if you disagree with me, I'm just expressing my ideas and my interpretation, based on the books.

 

Still curious about where the different iteration information came from...

 

Were you referring to me here? Cause I just found the inferred (and then not so inferred) increasing emphasis on "you" to be amusing. And I am excitable. And generally amiable even if my tone comes across as bitter and/or sarcastic. If I sound like I'm being a **** (EDIT: jerk) I'm almost always joking but tone is hard to convey via text. I have a hard time tolerating stupid people but they seem to be rare here and I try my best to ignore the ones I come across.

 

Lol, well, yeah... I'm in th same boat, I'm extremely sarcastic, and rare is the person that understands me *laugh* My husband is one of the few, though he's got the same sense of humor ;)

[johthohar]

Lol, well, yeah... I'm in th same boat, I'm extremely sarcastic, and rare is the person that understands me *laugh* My husband is one of the few, though he's got the same sense of humor ;)

 

Side note: Innocently slipping the words "my husband" into conversation will not stop me from hitting on you..... This goes for everybody. Men aside.

[johthohar]

Didnt realize theres a thread for my previous post. My apologies.

I think it's appropriate here as well anyway so... I declare you good. But then I'm not a mod.... But I AM pretty much the awesomest thing ever so... You're good.

 

Also... Very interesting theory.