The Shadar Logoth Taint

[MahaRaj]

Please forgive (and correct) a newcomer if I'm not following the proper posting etiquette, but I noticed that the new (lovely) FAQ didn't have much to say about the spreading of the Shadar Logoth taint, though there seemed to be a significant development in The Gathering Storm.

 

As Mat and company are traveling, we get some establishing narration to remind us of the old plot point (The Gathering Storm, "The Tipsy Gelding"):

 

He shivered, banishing the memory. Aridhol had been one of the ancient nations that had stood long ago, when Manetheren had been a power. The capitol of Aridhol had another name. Shadar Logoth.

 

Mat hadn't felt the pull of the ruby dagger in a very long time. He was nearly beginning to forget what it had been like to be tied to it, if it was possible to forget such a thing. But sometimes he remembered that ruby, red like his own blood. And the old lust, the old desire, would seep into him again...

 

When Mat spends the night in the village of Hinderstap, the madness he encounters looks very familiar, especially in light of the establishing context (The Gathering Storm, "Night In Hinderstap"):

 

It was almost completely dark now. Indeed, it seemed to him that the darkness had come too quickly here. Unnaturally swift. The road's length squirmed with shadows, figures battling, screeching, struggling in the deepening gloom. In that darkness, the fights looked at times to be solid, single creatures -- horrific monstrosities with a dozen waving limbs and a hundred mouths to scream from the blackness.

 

The phenomenon is similar enough to suggest that Hinderstap is a proto-Shadar Logoth, complete with a proto-Mashadar that comes out when the sun goes down. Two thousand years of ghostly violence may have turned perpetually-battling people of Aridhol into the single, many-limbed mist that we know and love. Or Mashadar's form could be a result of interaction with Mordeth himself, who seems able to create a monstrous, tentacled fog like in A Crown Of Swords, "Blades":

 

Outside, someone screamed, a wail of utter horror, and suddenly the huge tent snapped up into the air, vanishing into a thick grayness that hid the sky. Fog billowed on every side, filled with distant shrieks and bellows. Thin tendrils wafted into the clear inverted bowl left by the tent.

 

It's surprising we haven't seen something like this before. The Aes Sedai predicted that having the Shadar Logoth dagger on the loose (or even a pebble of that tainted city) would spread its evil, and we know that the Fain/Mordeth amalgamation has been traveling far and wide, dagger in hand. Was Hinderstap an early stop along his way? Will we be able to trace his route through similar manifestations?

[nophone]

Please forgive (and correct) a newcomer if I'm not following the proper posting etiquette, but I noticed that the new (lovely) FAQ didn't have much to say about the spreading of the Shadar Logoth taint, though there seemed to be a significant development in The Gathering Storm.

 

As Mat and company are traveling, we get some establishing narration to remind us of the old plot point (The Gathering Storm, "The Tipsy Gelding"):

 

He shivered, banishing the memory. Aridhol had been one of the ancient nations that had stood long ago, when Manetheren had been a power. The capitol of Aridhol had another name. Shadar Logoth.

 

Mat hadn't felt the pull of the ruby dagger in a very long time. He was nearly beginning to forget what it had been like to be tied to it, if it was possible to forget such a thing. But sometimes he remembered that ruby, red like his own blood. And the old lust, the old desire, would seep into him again...

 

When Mat spends the night in the village of Hinderstap, the madness he encounters looks very familiar, especially in light of the establishing context (The Gathering Storm, "Night In Hinderstap"):

 

It was almost completely dark now. Indeed, it seemed to him that the darkness had come too quickly here. Unnaturally swift. The road's length squirmed with shadows, figures battling, screeching, struggling in the deepening gloom. In that darkness, the fights looked at times to be solid, single creatures -- horrific monstrosities with a dozen waving limbs and a hundred mouths to scream from the blackness.

 

The phenomenon is similar enough to suggest that Hinderstap is a proto-Shadar Logoth, complete with a proto-Mashadar that comes out when the sun goes down. Two thousand years of ghostly violence may have turned perpetually-battling people of Aridhol into the single, many-limbed mist that we know and love. Or Mashadar's form could be a result of interaction with Mordeth himself, who seems able to create a monstrous, tentacled fog like in A Crown Of Swords, "Blades":

 

Outside, someone screamed, a wail of utter horror, and suddenly the huge tent snapped up into the air, vanishing into a thick grayness that hid the sky. Fog billowed on every side, filled with distant shrieks and bellows. Thin tendrils wafted into the clear inverted bowl left by the tent.

 

It's surprising we haven't seen something like this before. The Aes Sedai predicted that having the Shadar Logoth dagger on the loose (or even a pebble of that tainted city) would spread its evil, and we know that the Fain/Mordeth amalgamation has been traveling far and wide, dagger in hand. Was Hinderstap an early stop along his way? Will we be able to trace his route through similar manifestations?

 

Well they speculated that even 1 piece of dust out of place would set the world wrong. I think that you're probably wrong about the proto-shaddar logoth, but recently brandon has mentioned that there is more than one kind of evil in the world. Originally it thought it was the dark ones touch on the world, but it's possible that it may a diferent kind of evil all together.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Please forgive (and correct) a newcomer if I'm not following the proper posting etiquette, but I noticed that the new (lovely) FAQ didn't have much to say about the spreading of the Shadar Logoth taint, though there seemed to be a significant development in The Gathering Storm.

 

As Mat and company are traveling, we get some establishing narration to remind us of the old plot point (The Gathering Storm, "The Tipsy Gelding"):

 

He shivered, banishing the memory. Aridhol had been one of the ancient nations that had stood long ago, when Manetheren had been a power. The capitol of Aridhol had another name. Shadar Logoth.

 

Mat hadn't felt the pull of the ruby dagger in a very long time. He was nearly beginning to forget what it had been like to be tied to it, if it was possible to forget such a thing. But sometimes he remembered that ruby, red like his own blood. And the old lust, the old desire, would seep into him again...

 

When Mat spends the night in the village of Hinderstap, the madness he encounters looks very familiar, especially in light of the establishing context (The Gathering Storm, "Night In Hinderstap"):

 

It was almost completely dark now. Indeed, it seemed to him that the darkness had come too quickly here. Unnaturally swift. The road's length squirmed with shadows, figures battling, screeching, struggling in the deepening gloom. In that darkness, the fights looked at times to be solid, single creatures -- horrific monstrosities with a dozen waving limbs and a hundred mouths to scream from the blackness.

 

The phenomenon is similar enough to suggest that Hinderstap is a proto-Shadar Logoth, complete with a proto-Mashadar that comes out when the sun goes down. Two thousand years of ghostly violence may have turned perpetually-battling people of Aridhol into the single, many-limbed mist that we know and love. Or Mashadar's form could be a result of interaction with Mordeth himself, who seems able to create a monstrous, tentacled fog like in A Crown Of Swords, "Blades":

 

Outside, someone screamed, a wail of utter horror, and suddenly the huge tent snapped up into the air, vanishing into a thick grayness that hid the sky. Fog billowed on every side, filled with distant shrieks and bellows. Thin tendrils wafted into the clear inverted bowl left by the tent.

 

It's surprising we haven't seen something like this before. The Aes Sedai predicted that having the Shadar Logoth dagger on the loose (or even a pebble of that tainted city) would spread its evil, and we know that the Fain/Mordeth amalgamation has been traveling far and wide, dagger in hand. Was Hinderstap an early stop along his way? Will we be able to trace his route through similar manifestations?

 

Well they speculated that even 1 piece of dust out of place would set the world wrong. I think that you're probably wrong about the proto-shaddar logoth, but recently brandon has mentioned that there is more than one kind of evil in the world. Originally it thought it was the dark ones touch on the world, but it's possible that it may a diferent kind of evil all together.

 

First of all, welcome to the Forums !! dont worry about asking questions, thats what the forums are here for. Everyone should be glad to help you out!

 

TO the question. No, Fain did not do anything at Hinderstap. That was a bubble of evil, the DO affecting the Pattern as he is breaking free.

 

Also, while Fain corrupts people etc... it does not spread like Verin and Moiraine think in tGH. Fain has to be around the person for a substantial amount of time to have a significant effect. Also, people contaminated by Fain cannot spread the taint like he does. Here is a quote from RJ that may clear things up.

 

DragonCon 5 September 2005 - Tamyrlin reporting

 

(video) Isabel: When Mat had the dagger, Moiraine and Verin thought he would contaminate other people with the evil of Shadar Logoth, and they would contaminate other people. Fain does seem to be influencing without contaminating people. Is it as dangerous as it seems? Could also normal people become evil, and would they also contaminate other people?

 

Jordan: No. Fain can contaminate people because he has the dagger; it is the dagger. What Verin and Moiraine thought was incorrect; they were extending it too far. It is the one of things you may have noted in the books. Aes Sedai often believe they know more than they actually know. In other words, a lot of people believe they know more than they actually know. One of the themes I have running through the books is that whatever you think you know, some of it is almost certainly wrong, and it may even be the most crucial bit that is wrong. But even when you are aware that some of your information may be wrong you still have to go ahead and make a decision. You...you cannot afford the luxury of saying, well I don't know everything and some of what I know may be wrong, so I am not going to do anything, I am just going to sit here and wait and see if I can find out some more, because that only leads to sitting still forever.

 

From theoryland quote database.

 

Hope that helps !

[MahaRaj]

I think that you're probably wrong about the proto-shaddar logoth, but recently brandon has mentioned that there is more than one kind of evil in the world. Originally it thought it was the dark ones touch on the world, but it's possible that it may a diferent kind of evil all together.

 

Brandon Sanderson's comment seems consistent with the notion that Hinderstap is a proto-Shadar Logoth. It's well established that Shadar Logoth is a different kind of evil from the Dark One's (that was the underlying theory of Saidin's cleansing, after all). If Brandon was refuting the notion that what was going on was a different evil from the Dark One's touch, then a Shadar Logoth-style evil is a likely bet, given the physical similarities and the narrative setup.

 

The only "other" kind of evil we know is that of *finnland, which doesn't seem relevant at all.

[nophone]

I think that you're probably wrong about the proto-shaddar logoth, but recently brandon has mentioned that there is more than one kind of evil in the world. Originally it thought it was the dark ones touch on the world, but it's possible that it may a diferent kind of evil all together.

 

Brandon Sanderson's comment seems consistent with the notion that Hinderstap is a proto-Shadar Logoth. It's well established that Shadar Logoth is a different kind of evil from the Dark One's (that was the underlying theory of Saidin's cleansing, after all). If Brandon was refuting the notion that what was going on was a different evil from the Dark One's touch, then a Shadar Logoth-style evil is a likely bet, given the physical similarities and the narrative setup.

 

The only "other" kind of evil we know is that of *finnland, which doesn't seem relevant at all.

 

 

i think i see where you're going with this, and i disagree but for a similar reason. I don't know that i believe it's a dark one bubble, mainly because those seem to end. I don't think it's shaddar logoth either. But brandon did say there other kinds of evil, which means it likely doesn't have to make this an either or situation. it could be it's own brand of evil.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think that you're probably wrong about the proto-shaddar logoth, but recently brandon has mentioned that there is more than one kind of evil in the world. Originally it thought it was the dark ones touch on the world, but it's possible that it may a diferent kind of evil all together.

 

Brandon Sanderson's comment seems consistent with the notion that Hinderstap is a proto-Shadar Logoth. It's well established that Shadar Logoth is a different kind of evil from the Dark One's (that was the underlying theory of Saidin's cleansing, after all). If Brandon was refuting the notion that what was going on was a different evil from the Dark One's touch, then a Shadar Logoth-style evil is a likely bet, given the physical similarities and the narrative setup.

 

The only "other" kind of evil we know is that of *finnland, which doesn't seem relevant at all.

 

 

i think i see where you're going with this, and i disagree but for a similar reason. I don't know that i believe it's a dark one bubble, mainly because those seem to end. I don't think it's shaddar logoth either. But brandon did say there other kinds of evil, which means it likely doesn't have to make this an either or situation. it could be it's own brand of evil.

 

While what you say about the Bubbles of Evil is vaild, remember that the DO's influence on the world is getting stonger. We see in the books that the frequency of BoE increases and the effects more potent. First you start off with the wind at the start of tGH that tries to kill Rand. It then advances to ghosts popping up randomly for a few seconds, then increases to whole chunks of building move around. Hinderstap was an advanced effect of the pattern unravelling. the more the DO breaks free, the more influence he has. Ie- more powerful BoE

[nophone]

I think that you're probably wrong about the proto-shaddar logoth, but recently brandon has mentioned that there is more than one kind of evil in the world. Originally it thought it was the dark ones touch on the world, but it's possible that it may a diferent kind of evil all together.

 

Brandon Sanderson's comment seems consistent with the notion that Hinderstap is a proto-Shadar Logoth. It's well established that Shadar Logoth is a different kind of evil from the Dark One's (that was the underlying theory of Saidin's cleansing, after all). If Brandon was refuting the notion that what was going on was a different evil from the Dark One's touch, then a Shadar Logoth-style evil is a likely bet, given the physical similarities and the narrative setup.

 

The only "other" kind of evil we know is that of *finnland, which doesn't seem relevant at all.

 

 

i think i see where you're going with this, and i disagree but for a similar reason. I don't know that i believe it's a dark one bubble, mainly because those seem to end. I don't think it's shaddar logoth either. But brandon did say there other kinds of evil, which means it likely doesn't have to make this an either or situation. it could be it's own brand of evil.

 

While what you say about the Bubbles of Evil is vaild, remember that the DO's influence on the world is getting stonger. We see in the books that the frequency of BoE increases and the effects more potent. First you start off with the wind at the start of tGH that tries to kill Rand. It then advances to ghosts popping up randomly for a few seconds, then increases to whole chunks of building move around. Hinderstap was an advanced effect of the pattern unravelling. the more the DO breaks free, the more influence he has. Ie- more powerful BoE

 

Like i said, I appreciate your reasoning, and believe that it's entirely possible that the city. If it's a permanent effect i'd no longer call it a bubble of evil; I would agree about identifying it as the pattern unraveling. I think it's more likely an effect of the DO, but also think that if it's not the DO it's likely not the same evil as Shadder Logoth, but some other evil instead.

 

only only the Sith think in absolutes

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think that you're probably wrong about the proto-shaddar logoth, but recently brandon has mentioned that there is more than one kind of evil in the world. Originally it thought it was the dark ones touch on the world, but it's possible that it may a diferent kind of evil all together.

 

Brandon Sanderson's comment seems consistent with the notion that Hinderstap is a proto-Shadar Logoth. It's well established that Shadar Logoth is a different kind of evil from the Dark One's (that was the underlying theory of Saidin's cleansing, after all). If Brandon was refuting the notion that what was going on was a different evil from the Dark One's touch, then a Shadar Logoth-style evil is a likely bet, given the physical similarities and the narrative setup.

 

The only "other" kind of evil we know is that of *finnland, which doesn't seem relevant at all.

 

 

i think i see where you're going with this, and i disagree but for a similar reason. I don't know that i believe it's a dark one bubble, mainly because those seem to end. I don't think it's shaddar logoth either. But brandon did say there other kinds of evil, which means it likely doesn't have to make this an either or situation. it could be it's own brand of evil.

 

While what you say about the Bubbles of Evil is vaild, remember that the DO's influence on the world is getting stonger. We see in the books that the frequency of BoE increases and the effects more potent. First you start off with the wind at the start of tGH that tries to kill Rand. It then advances to ghosts popping up randomly for a few seconds, then increases to whole chunks of building move around. Hinderstap was an advanced effect of the pattern unravelling. the more the DO breaks free, the more influence he has. Ie- more powerful BoE

 

Like i said, I appreciate your reasoning, and believe that it's entirely possible that the city. If it's a permanent effect i'd no longer call it a bubble of evil; I would agree about identifying it as the pattern unraveling. I think it's more likely an effect of the DO, but also think that if it's not the DO it's likely not the same evil as Shadder Logoth, but some other evil instead.

 

only only the Sith think in absolutes

 

yeah, i get ya, and true. of course, I may be wrong, as with every theory that has not been proven. and I also agree, if it is not the DO, it is most likely some other evil as you say. The SL evil is too different and it would be impossible to affect a town like that unless fain stayed there for weeks possibly months. Theoretically, it is similar to the time trap fain used in tGH, but not enough to make that giant leap from "trapping someone in a loop. Like a video recorder playing over and over again" to "a whole town is fine by day but when it is night they turn all zombie like and kill people. Then, everything resets in the morning and they go on with their day. also, if you are killed at night, you wake up fine the next morning."

 

WE have only seen that kind of power from the DO, and not even that is sure. Unless Fain= more powerful than the DO. Which is absolute nonsense. The DO is the counterpart of the creator, fain is some tainted insane prick.

[MahaRaj]

Thanks for the discussion, folks. It's good to get back into this stuff, awaiting the next book.

 

Just to address some objections to the theory that what's happening in Hinderstap is an echo of what happened in Shadar Logoth...

 

brandon did say there other kinds of evil, which means it likely doesn't have to make this an either or situation. it could be it's own brand of evil.

 

It's not run-of-the-mill human evil. There's a supernatural component to it, and this late in the game, I don't think we can posit a previously unseen source. That means Hinderstap has to be an effect of the Dark One, of Shadar Logoth's corruption, or of some other supernatural evil like the Ael/Eelfinn (unlikely).

 

Fain can contaminate people because he has the dagger; it is the dagger.

 

Indeed. As I mentioned, Fain has the dagger, which means he carries the means of infection and corruption. RJ's quote didn't say anything about Fain's presence negating the contaminating effects of the dagger, so we have to assume that he is a carrier of its particular brand of corruption (just as Mat would have been) -- and we have to ask ourselves why we haven't seen its effects anywhere. The Hinderstap theory satisfies this requirement.

 

Hinderstap was an advanced effect of the pattern unravelling. the more the DO breaks free, the more influence he has. Ie- more powerful BoE

 

While the chapter icon for "Night in Hinderstap" does indicate the Pattern unraveling, the events don't conform to what we know about those phenomena. The unraveling of the Pattern usually manifests as time distortion -- the past being overlaid on the present (e.g. the "ghosts", A Village in Shiota, the rearrangement of rooms and buildings). Bubbles of Evil seem to be slightly different: they are localized, deadly short-term changes manifesting as attacks (e.g. insects eating their way out of people, people dissolving into hot tar, playing cards/mirror reflections/axes attacking their owners).

 

Hinderstap is different. According to the mayor (ref: "Night in Hinderstap"), the nightly murderous frenzy has been happening for several months, in the same way repeatedly. If it's even an "advanced" unraveling or bubble, it's curiously unique.

 

But Hinderstap's situation isn't unique. It has too many similarities with Shadar Logoth:

 

• The curse remains confined to a city/town.
  
• The curse begins at nightfall and ends at sunrise.
  
• The curse attempts to kill anything in its domain while it is active.
  
• The curse manifests as a (seeming) many-limbed mass of murderous rage (see quoted material in original post).
  
• The curse repeats itself on a nightly basis.
  

 

I think Hinderstap has to be related to Shadar Logoth because:

 

1. Hinderstap's curse is similar to Shadar Logoth's.
   
2. Hinderstap's curse is dissimilar to the temporal overlays of the Pattern unraveling.
   
3. Hinderstap's curse is dissimilar to Bubbles of Evil.
   
4. "The Tipsy Gelding" likely references Shadar Logoth for narrative reasons.
   
5. The Shadar Logoth dagger is uncontained, and we ought to see its effects (and thus far have not).
   

[Barid Bel Medar]

Thanks for the discussion, folks. It's good to get back into this stuff, awaiting the next book.

 

Just to address some objections to the theory that what's happening in Hinderstap is an echo of what happened in Shadar Logoth...

 

brandon did say there other kinds of evil, which means it likely doesn't have to make this an either or situation. it could be it's own brand of evil.

 

It's not run-of-the-mill human evil. There's a supernatural component to it, and this late in the game, I don't think we can posit a previously unseen source. That means Hinderstap has to be an effect of the Dark One, of Shadar Logoth's corruption, or of some other supernatural evil like the Ael/Eelfinn (unlikely).

 

Fain can contaminate people because he has the dagger; it is the dagger.

 

Indeed. As I mentioned, Fain has the dagger, which means he carries the means of infection and corruption. RJ's quote didn't say anything about Fain's presence negating the contaminating effects of the dagger, so we have to assume that he is a carrier of its particular brand of corruption (just as Mat would have been) -- and we have to ask ourselves why we haven't seen its effects anywhere. The Hinderstap theory satisfies this requirement.

 

Hinderstap was an advanced effect of the pattern unravelling. the more the DO breaks free, the more influence he has. Ie- more powerful BoE

 

While the chapter icon for "Night in Hinderstap" does indicate the Pattern unraveling, the events don't conform to what we know about those phenomena. The unraveling of the Pattern usually manifests as time distortion -- the past being overlaid on the present (e.g. the "ghosts", A Village in Shiota, the rearrangement of rooms and buildings). Bubbles of Evil seem to be slightly different: they are localized, deadly short-term changes manifesting as attacks (e.g. insects eating their way out of people, people dissolving into hot tar, playing cards/mirror reflections/axes attacking their owners).

 

Hinderstap is different. According to the mayor (ref: "Night in Hinderstap"), the nightly murderous frenzy has been happening for several months, in the same way repeatedly. If it's even an "advanced" unraveling or bubble, it's curiously unique.

 

But Hinderstap's situation isn't unique. It has too many similarities with Shadar Logoth:

 

• The curse remains confined to a city/town.
  
• The curse begins at nightfall and ends at sunrise.
  
• The curse attempts to kill anything in its domain while it is active.
  
• The curse manifests as a (seeming) many-limbed mass of murderous rage (see quoted material in original post).
  
• The curse repeats itself on a nightly basis.
  

 

I think Hinderstap has to be related to Shadar Logoth because:

 

1. Hinderstap's curse is similar to Shadar Logoth's.
   
2. Hinderstap's curse is dissimilar to the temporal overlays of the Pattern unraveling.
   
3. Hinderstap's curse is dissimilar to Bubbles of Evil.
   
4. "The Tipsy Gelding" likely references Shadar Logoth for narrative reasons.
   
5. The Shadar Logoth dagger is uncontained, and we ought to see its effects (and thus far have not).
   

 

The dagger doesnt work like that. Moiraine and Verin were wrong. It does not spread to contaminate things. Fain is the only one who can contaminate things. For example, even though Fain "contaminate" Elaida, Elaida in turn cannot contaminate other people. Fain could not just walk by and taint a whole town. He would have to spend weeks or months with every single person in the town for it to have any lasting effects.

[didymos]

Why do people keep declaring the 'Finn to another form of evil, as though they're similiar to the Shadow or Shadar Logoth? Birgitte says "They are not evil the way the Shadow is evil, yet they are so different from humankind they might as well be." There is a distinction there, subtle as it may be. It's also worth noting they are not fond of the Shadow being asked about, and also that Brandon has refused to answer questions such as "Can they be Darkfriends?"

 

Now, they may very well represent yet another capital-P Power and that Power also very well may qualify as another type of evil, but we have no actual basis for this beyond the fact that some of the Foxes were rather mean to Mat. For all we know, they just have a screwed up society and wouldn't be so bad with some turnover in leadership and some new ways of thinking. You know, kinda like the Red Ajah.

[MahaRaj]

The dagger doesnt work like that. Moiraine and Verin were wrong. It does not spread to contaminate things. Fain is the only one who can contaminate things. For example, even though Fain "contaminate" Elaida, Elaida in turn cannot contaminate other people. Fain could not just walk by and taint a whole town. He would have to spend weeks or months with every single person in the town for it to have any lasting effects.

 

Do you have a reference for how the dagger works? Your RJ quotation said that it was the dagger, not Fain on his own, that could spread the Shadar Logoth corruption. (Recall that while Fain was in the White Tower, he did not have possession of the dagger until he killed the novice, after which time he left the Tower.)

 

Here's what Verin said (which RJ said was taking it too far), from The Great Hunt, "Blood Calls Blood":

 

"Such a small thing, that dagger," she mused, "but it will corrupt whoever carries it long enough. He who carries it will in turn corrupt those who come in contact with him, and they will corrupt still others, and the hatred and suspicion that destroyed Shadar Logoth, every man and woman's hand turned against every other, will be loose in the world again."

 

Even if Verin is wrong about the rate of spread, she describes the symptoms of the corruption exactly. "Every man and woman's hand turned against every other." That's exactly what's happening in Hinderstap.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Why do people keep declaring the 'Finn to another form of evil, as though they're similiar to the Shadow or Shadar Logoth? Birgitte says "They are not evil the way the Shadow is evil, yet they are so different from humankind they might as well be." There is a distinction there, subtle as it may be. It's also worth noting they are not fond of the Shadow being asked about, and also that Brandon has refused to answer questions such as "Can they be Darkfriends?"

 

Now, they may very well represent yet another capital-P Power and that Power also very well may qualify as another type of evil, but we have no actual basis for this beyond the fact that some of the Foxes were rather mean to Mat. For all we know, they just have a screwed up society and wouldn't be so bad with some turnover in leadership and some new ways of thinking. You know, kinda like the Red Ajah.

 

 

Yeah, I never understood that. The Finns are not evil like DO, SL, I never got that impression. They are just soo different in their thinking that what humans consider "bad" would be nature to them.

 

It is like calling a lion or crocodile evil because they kill things indiscriminately. Its just how they are.

 

I think you could define evil as something that kills,destroys or corrupts without real intention. Ie- not for sustinance or survival.

 

The Finns dont really do that.

[MahaRaj]

Why do people keep declaring the 'Finn to another form of evil, as though they're similiar to the Shadow or Shadar Logoth? Birgitte says "They are not evil the way the Shadow is evil, yet they are so different from humankind they might as well be." There is a distinction there, subtle as it may be. It's also worth noting they are not fond of the Shadow being asked about, and also that Brandon has refused to answer questions such as "Can they be Darkfriends?"

 

I was putting the 'finns in the "supernatural evil" category only to make an exhaustive list -- and promptly to remove them from contention as a cause for the Hinderstap phenomenon. I had Birgitte's explanation in mind, in fact -- they're not like the Shadow, but they're so different that they might as well be considered evil. Eelfinn make harnesses out of human skin and are more than happy to kill you unless you're clever enough to say you want to get out alive. Call it "evil" or cultural relativism, but a mouse could starve on the difference.

[Barid Bel Medar]

The dagger doesnt work like that. Moiraine and Verin were wrong. It does not spread to contaminate things. Fain is the only one who can contaminate things. For example, even though Fain "contaminate" Elaida, Elaida in turn cannot contaminate other people. Fain could not just walk by and taint a whole town. He would have to spend weeks or months with every single person in the town for it to have any lasting effects.

 

Do you have a reference for how the dagger works? Your RJ quotation said that it was the dagger, not Fain on his own, that could spread the Shadar Logoth corruption. (Recall that while Fain was in the White Tower, he did not have possession of the dagger until he killed the novice, after which time he left the Tower.)

 

Here's what Verin said (which RJ said was taking it too far), from The Great Hunt, "Blood Calls Blood":

 

"Such a small thing, that dagger," she mused, "but it will corrupt whoever carries it long enough. He who carries it will in turn corrupt those who come in contact with him, and they will corrupt still others, and the hatred and suspicion that destroyed Shadar Logoth, every man and woman's hand turned against every other, will be loose in the world again."

 

Even if Verin is wrong about the rate of spread, she describes the symptoms of the corruption exactly. "Every man and woman's hand turned against every other." That's exactly what's happening in Hinderstap.

 

Verin was wrong about it being able to spread like a disease. Only the dagger can corrupt people. People who have been corrupted, such as Fain, cannot corrupt other people, in turn they corrupt others.

 

RJ's blog 6 October 2005 "AND ONE MORE TIME"

 

Fain might be said to be contagious in the sense that he corrupts those he is around long enough, but not in the sense that they then have something communicable.

 

So, he would have to spend a long long time with every single person in Hinderstap for them to be corrupted at that level. Fain himself isnt even at the level of the original SL we see in EotW. Mashadar is the source of the "evil in the night" part. Mashadar only formed after the people of Aridhol died, it doesnt just take a few days or even weeks to corrupt on the scale of Hinderstap. Fain has had the Dagger for more than a year, and his "symptoms" are not nearly as severe as those in Hinderstap.

 

A Crown of Swords book tour 24 August 1996, Vancouver - Lara Beaton reporting

 

 

Everyone in Shadar Logoth killed each other. Mashadar occurred after everyone in Shadar Logoth was dead.

 

It is inconsistant with everything in hinderstap. Hinderstap hasnt been growing worse, it just started one day. The corruption of SL needs time to grow. But Hinderstap just happened immediately. Hinderstap doesnt corrupt people, you can stay there all day and nothing happens. If you "die" in the night you are transformed into them, but that is inconsitant with SL.

 

In addition, there is no reason for Fain to be there. If this kind of thing could happen, it would have in every town/city he has been to. Fain would not stop in a small country town for months on end just to corrupt it. He is obsessed with finding Rand. There is absolutely no plausable explaination for Fain to be in Hinderstap.

[didymos]

Why do people keep declaring the 'Finn to another form of evil, as though they're similiar to the Shadow or Shadar Logoth? Birgitte says "They are not evil the way the Shadow is evil, yet they are so different from humankind they might as well be." There is a distinction there, subtle as it may be. It's also worth noting they are not fond of the Shadow being asked about, and also that Brandon has refused to answer questions such as "Can they be Darkfriends?"

 

I was putting the 'finns in the "supernatural evil" category only to make an exhaustive list -- and promptly to remove them from contention as a cause for the Hinderstap phenomenon. I had Birgitte's explanation in mind, in fact -- they're not like the Shadow, but they're so different that they might as well be considered evil. Eelfinn make harnesses out of human skin and are more than happy to kill you unless you're clever enough to say you want to get out alive. Call it "evil" or cultural relativism, but a mouse could starve on the difference.

 

 

I wouldn't hesitate to say they've done evil, but I also wouldn't class them with the DO/SL without knowing a lot more about them. I don't think even Birgitte as she was then really knew all that much. For now, their evil is perfectly natural, even if they are from another world, just as the good of the Ogier is natural despite their extradimensional origins. The other thing is, I don't see why the Snakes get tarred with the same brush as the Foxes. All we've seen the Snakes do is act kinda weird and answer some questions. The Foxes were the genuinely sinister ones who we know have done genuinely nasty stuff like wearing human skin and hanging people for the hell of it. The two groups are clearly related, but how is very much an open question.

[didymos]

Only the dagger can corrupt people. People who have been corrupted, such as Fain, cannot corrupt other people, in turn they corrupt others.

 

Incorrect: Fain did not have the dagger in the dungeon at Fal Dara. His guards got corrupted. He didn't have it when he corrupted Niall. He didn't have it when he corrupted all his Whitecloaks. He didn't have it when he corrupted Elaida. It was only after meeting her that he finally retrieved the thing. The ones he spent the most time with were the most corrupted as well.

 

ETA: OK, wait. I see you acknowledged these cases earlier in the thread, so not sure why you said "Only the dagger" here.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Only the dagger can corrupt people. People who have been corrupted, such as Fain, cannot corrupt other people, in turn they corrupt others.

 

Incorrect: Fain did not have the dagger in the dungeon at Fal Dara. His guards got corrupted. He didn't have it when he corrupted Niall. He didn't have it when he corrupted all his Whitecloaks. He didn't have it when he corrupted Elaida. It was only after meeting her that he finally retrieved the thing. The ones he spent the most time with were the most corrupted as well.

 

ETA: OK, wait. I see you acknowledged these cases earlier in the thread, so not sure why you said "Only the dagger" here.

 

Yeah, made a msitake there. Not sure why i put it in. I think i was refering to this statement.

Jordan: No. Fain can contaminate people because he has the dagger; it is the dagger.

(source in earlier post)

[MahaRaj]

So, he would have to spend a long long time with every single person in Hinderstap for them to be corrupted at that level. Fain himself isnt even at the level of the original SL we see in EotW.

 

I'm not sure where you're getting the time frames necessary for Fain/Mordeth to "corrupt" a place. Lord Of Chaos, "Letters", suggests that he could corrupt with a mere "brush":

 

Unlikely Niall would have ever supported al'Thor any more than Elaida would have, but it was best not to take too much for granted with Rand bloody al'Thor. Well, he had brushed them both with what he carried from Aridhol; they might possibly trust their own mothers, but never al'Thor now.

 

We know his powers are growing. Beyond his corruption ability, he can intimidate the hell out of Shadowspawn, cause seizures with a touch, identify Darkfriends by sight and possibly command gray mist monsters. Every time we see him, his power seems to expand. By now, there's no reason in the texts to assume he'd need "weeks" to corrupt a village, especially now that he's the sole remaining embodiment of Shadar Logoth's evil. ("The dagger was part of Aridhol, what men called Shadar Logoth, but then, he was part of Aridhol too. Or it was part of him.")

 

Mashadar is the source of the "evil in the night" part. Mashadar only formed after the people of Aridhol died, it doesnt just take a few days or even weeks to corrupt on the scale of Hinderstap.

 

I agree with the history, if not your conclusion. Mashadar is the many-armed mass of murder that haunts Shadar Logoth, and it manifested after all the people of Aridhol killed each other. The original corruption in Aridhol took time to form, it's true, but in this Age, it is fully manifest AND communicable. These are the facts laid out in the texts. The way I see it, the people of Hinderstap are as good as dead. They can't leave (or be taken from) their village, they can't really die, and every night they become part of a murderous wraith that has too many similarities to Mashadar to be coincidental.

 

At any rate, if Hinderstap is never mentioned again in The Wheel Of Time, I'll know I'm wrong. But I suspect we're going to see it mentioned in the same context as Padan Fain, where we'll see just how vast and awful the scope of his power is.

[waffle]

I don´t see how Shadar Logoth and Hinderstap are similar. Other than the part that you will almost certainly get killed if you decide to spend the night there.

 

Shadar Logoth tried to fight evil with evil and was consumed by their brand of evil. They brought it on themselves (that´s how i understand it anyway)

 

Hinderstap folk are just ordinary folk who´ve been dropped in a pile of poo. Not evil. Hell, they even try to keep outsiders away so they don´t get trapped with them.

 

 

ot: just thought of something that would make life suck even more for Hinderstappers. If some trollocs show up there. If they are killed, they´ll just be there every morning again. If not, well, they´ll still be there.

[FarShainMael]

There is something else that may link Fain to Hinderstap - he has twice apparently 'rewound' time. Once in the abandoned village where he nailed a Fade to a door (tGH10) and Rand experienced a room full of flies; and once in Far Madding (WH33) when Rand 'sees' Gedwyn and Torval climbing the stairs to the room where their dead bodies lay. RJ described this as Fain having the ability to create illusions from the recent past; perhaps Fain has developed that ability.

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/books/wh/ch33.html

 

It is also rather interesting that Mat starts thinking about the ruby dagger - having been reminded by Thom of Queen Doreille of Aridhol - as the party approaches Hinderstap. (tGS27)

[Sharaman]

Interesting - isn't Fain originally from Murandy?

But I don't think he has the power of continuous resurrection for want of a better description.

[FarShainMael]

Interesting - isn't Fain originally from Murandy?

Yes, he's from Lugard. See EncWoT.

 

But I don't think he has the power of continuous resurrection for want of a better description.

I wondered whether it was a simple time loop, effectively repeating the same time interval over and over again, in a 'time bubble'. A bit like the Star Trek TNG Season 5 episode 'Cause and Effect'.

[Sharaman]

Interesting - isn't Fain originally from Murandy?

Yes, he's from Lugard. See EncWoT.

 

But I don't think he has the power of continuous resurrection for want of a better description.

I wondered whether it was a simple time loop, effectively repeating the same time interval over and over again, in a 'time bubble'. A bit like the Star Trek TNG Season 5 episode 'Cause and Effect'.

 

Nice thought. But they do different stuff during each day and there seem to be changes at night as well - people have been drawn into the Hinderstap thing, they've killed each other in different orders and ways, etc. So it's not a simple rewind-replay, whatever it is.

Also they all wake in their beds regardless of where they were, which is a strange one-way Travel ticket.

Incidentally the animals are unaffected (and unafraid) and the humans don;t seem to attack the animals. This is a "dog that didn't bark" situation though I have no idea what it means, except that if Perrin can smell Fain, animals can and you'd expect them to be hassled whether it's a GLoD-induced bubble of evil or one of Fain's tricks.

 

Wonder if Hinderstap will feature again? If not, we may never see an explanation but then I really wonder what the whole thing was about.

(My first thought when I read it was, will Mat trap the gholam in there? But that seems unlikely now with the narrative arc having moved on)

[FarShainMael]

The loop in 'Cause and Effect' isn't a simple rewind either. The characters start off doing much the same things, and the loop always ends and rewinds in the collision, but the sequences diverge increasingly. Crucially, the characters start remembering previous cycles, especially during the poker session, and use that to send a 'message' to themselves in the next cycle, so that they can break out.

 

I'm not too bothered by the fact that the inhabitants of Hinderstap always wake in their beds. I am bothered, though, by the way that, if they leave Hinderstap - or are taken from it - they are 'magically' returned there, to wake in their beds!

 

Unfortunately (for us the readers, that is) this has only been going on for a few months, so we have no info on whether they have aged less than they should. In C&E another starship had been trapped for 80 years, but its crew certainly had not aged.

 

The point about the animals is curious, I hadn't noticed that. What do[ the animals do while the humans are cutting each other to pieces every night?

 

As for what it's about.. well, in about a week we may find out! Meanwhile, knowing how RJ draws on a diversity of sources, is there a similar legend out there we can look at?