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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

A Power to break a greater power?


sol moratlis

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So I jotted this idea down while doing a re-read, and I haven't my books in front of me now to allow me to be perfectly precise, but here's a thought on something that we've missed, I think. I certainly have never seen mention of it here, or even back on the old WOT forums.

 

In LOC, pg 283 (hardcover)

 

Rand is thinking about the bond Alanna had placed on him, and LTT says that, "You can never escape the traps you spin yourself...Only a greater power can break a power, and then you're trapped again. Trapped forever so you cannot die."

 

This begs the question of, one, if this was meant as a foreshadowing of Rand breaking loose from the male a'dam, which I think is PART of it...but also...what trap had LTT spun for himself? What greater power broke it, and bound him so he cannot die? This is very suggestive of the reader not knowing all the facts when it comes to the actions of LTT that lead to his death. He could simply be referring to the trap of madness from the sealing and his use of the power to kill himself, but that seems too obvious, and not really connected to his not being able to die. Many times, he refers to being alive, as though he had never entirely died, and never been bound in TAR. Now, at this point we know that he is both real AND a symptom of Rand's psychological issues...and while Rand has seemingly erased his issues there, it suggests that there is still more to the picture. As Graendal states at one point, also in LOC I think, never before to her knowledge had anyone been reborn as the same person. Is there more to this than has been obvious? Had LTT been bound in some way in his time? It certainly opens up a wide range of speculation which correlates to a number of events that have occurred in TGS and are likely to occur in the concluding books.

 

Thoughts?

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"Trapped forever so you cannot die."

 

I think that refers to LTT's awareness of being bound to the Wheel and having to fight this fight forever and ever, pretty much no matter what he does. Unless of course the Wheel itself were destroyed.

 

As for the rest, not sure. Not even sure it means anything. LTT is a whackjob, after all.

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Ah, but it doesn't reflect the ravings of a lunatic. It is a perfectly sound statement that is one o the basic principal of reality in the WOT universe. I think too many readers dismiss LTT as just "the crazy voice"...but he is essentially both Rand, in the rebirth sense, and a disassociative part of Rand's psyche. Basically, you can't get a lot more important than that, as the story IS ultimately about Rand and TG.

 

At this point, I'm still leaning towards foreshadowing of the male a'dam scene and then, ultimately, what will occur to break Rand's link with the DO through Moridin. RJ displayed a love of long range foreshadowing. But I would not be surprised if there is more to the story with LTT than we have seen, as well. After all, despite being a central part of the story, we have only the aftermath scene to begin and the scattered pieces of legend and a raving voice to base a picture of events on. Also suggestive is that, given the balance and connections between Ishmael/Moridin and Rand, one would assume that LTT had some sort of similar relationship with Ishmael, if not of the crossed balefire variety. Other than the scene to open the series, however, we know of nothing else.

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Ah, but it doesn't reflect the ravings of a lunatic. It is a perfectly sound statement that is one o the basic principal of reality in the WOT universe.

 

Which is why I said "As for the rest". In any case, LTT is undeniably nuts. That doesn't mean everything he says is crazy and that he's always irrational, but it does mean it's often difficult, if not impossible, to know whether any given statement is worth a damn.

 

At this point, I'm still leaning towards foreshadowing of the male a'dam scene and then, ultimately, what will occur to break Rand's link with the DO through Moridin. RJ displayed a love of long range foreshadowing.

 

If it's foreshadowing, then it could still easily be crazy-talk. The meaning to us is external to its meaning within the world and to Rand/LTT. Unless LTT somehow has the ability to predict the future flawlessly and without yet knowing that the Domination Band even existed.

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Ah, but it doesn't reflect the ravings of a lunatic. It is a perfectly sound statement that is one o the basic principal of reality in the WOT universe.

 

Which is why I said "As for the rest". In any case, LTT is undeniably nuts. That doesn't mean everything he says is crazy and that he's always irrational, but it does mean it's often difficult, if not impossible, to know whether any given statement is worth a damn.

 

At this point, I'm still leaning towards foreshadowing of the male a'dam scene and then, ultimately, what will occur to break Rand's link with the DO through Moridin. RJ displayed a love of long range foreshadowing.

 

If it's foreshadowing, then it could still easily be crazy-talk. The meaning to us is external to its meaning within the world and to Rand/LTT. Unless LTT somehow has the ability to predict the future flawlessly and without yet knowing that the Domination Band even existed.

 

Wasn't saying he could see the future...many statements made by characters are foreshadowing of future events. I just find it odd that something which relates to the primary theme o the series is so casually dismissed.

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There's nothing profound in that statement or..

 

You can never escape the traps you spin yourself

 

--Just like Alanna trapped him, Rand has essentially created many traps, obviously for others, which will spring on Rand itself one day..

 

 

Only a greater power can break a power

 

--Essentially setting a bigger trap.

 

 

And then you're trapped again.

 

---That's how it started.

 

 

Trapped forever so you cannot die

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He fought the shadow (his traps), "death" (the big power took him) and he is back and spinning the traps again.

 

He is the one getting caught in his own traps. Those traps are not being created by his enemies. That one line represents what it means to be the champion of creator. LTT died 3000 years ago. That line foreshadows nothing except eternal struggle against dark.

 

 

LTT's assault on SG backfired and even after dying, he is back doing the same thing again. Just one of those traps...

Essentially traps here are dragon's actions (not like walking and peeing...).

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That doesn't even make sense. Fighting the shadow is not a trap he laid for himself, and certainly doesn't correlate to the event which Rand was thinking of. Yes, there is the whole element of LTT and his pride, blah blah blah, but it is also revealed through the story that pride ultimately had little to do with it. (for LTT going with just the companions.) And still doesn't explain any power breaking any other power. We have no example of LTT breaking any chains of power, nor any clear reference to a future he is looking forward to.

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That doesn't even make sense. Fighting the shadow is not a trap he laid for himself, and certainly doesn't correlate to the event which Rand was thinking of. Yes, there is the whole element of LTT and his pride, blah blah blah, but it is also revealed through the story that pride ultimately had little to do with it. (for LTT going with just the companions.) And still doesn't explain any power breaking any other power. We have no example of LTT breaking any chains of power, nor any clear reference to a future he is looking forward to.

 

 

Rand was thinking about the "trap" Alanna had set on him and that led to LTT contemplating their own life and traps they had set and how these traps had backfired on them. Rand didn't lay any trap for "himself". That statement merely suggest that Rand has a way of getting caught in his own traps or atleast LTT did. In LTT's case greater power was death. The statement doesn't imply that LTT broke any power or had to. Pride had nothing to do with marching to SG with just the companions and 10k soldiers. I am not sure how you came to conclude that? He is merely cautioning Rand about his future and how eternally screwed Rand is.

 

Trap here has a broad meaning. Alana's bond is trap as for as Rand is considered.

 

I am done with this thread.Peace.

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Ah, but it doesn't reflect the ravings of a lunatic. It is a perfectly sound statement that is one o the basic principal of reality in the WOT universe.

 

Which is why I said "As for the rest". In any case, LTT is undeniably nuts. That doesn't mean everything he says is crazy and that he's always irrational, but it does mean it's often difficult, if not impossible, to know whether any given statement is worth a damn.

 

At this point, I'm still leaning towards foreshadowing of the male a'dam scene and then, ultimately, what will occur to break Rand's link with the DO through Moridin. RJ displayed a love of long range foreshadowing.

 

If it's foreshadowing, then it could still easily be crazy-talk. The meaning to us is external to its meaning within the world and to Rand/LTT. Unless LTT somehow has the ability to predict the future flawlessly and without yet knowing that the Domination Band even existed.

 

Wasn't saying he could see the future...many statements made by characters are foreshadowing of future events. I just find it odd that something which relates to the primary theme o the series is so casually dismissed.

 

 

OK, an example for foreshadowing that is trivial to the character and has no real impact on anything, but points at something important in the future: when Mat gripes that they can't hear what Fain has to say about Ghealdan, he casually says "Battles interest me." Mat doesn't know a damn thing about what he's going to become at that point. He isn't even aware he's about to leave the Two Rivers. See what I'm saying? It's nothing special in and of itself. Mat just wants to hear about some cool fighting and stuff 'cause he's a young male human who grew up listening to stories about that stuff and he thinks it's cool. It only means more to us, and then only way, way after the fact.

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Well sorry we disagree. Rand thinks many times that his pride was the trap that allowed Alanna to bond him, and the nature and structure of the chapter and Rands thoughts preceding the event strongly suggest that it is not a coincidence, and the message of the scene is that he did indeed lay a trap for himself, as LTT also implies. And what power was death breaking for him them? I can see where you would think that, but I am not convinced that is what was meant there.

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Ah, but it doesn't reflect the ravings of a lunatic. It is a perfectly sound statement that is one o the basic principal of reality in the WOT universe.

 

Which is why I said "As for the rest". In any case, LTT is undeniably nuts. That doesn't mean everything he says is crazy and that he's always irrational, but it does mean it's often difficult, if not impossible, to know whether any given statement is worth a damn.

 

At this point, I'm still leaning towards foreshadowing of the male a'dam scene and then, ultimately, what will occur to break Rand's link with the DO through Moridin. RJ displayed a love of long range foreshadowing.

 

If it's foreshadowing, then it could still easily be crazy-talk. The meaning to us is external to its meaning within the world and to Rand/LTT. Unless LTT somehow has the ability to predict the future flawlessly and without yet knowing that the Domination Band even existed.

 

Wasn't saying he could see the future...many statements made by characters are foreshadowing of future events. I just find it odd that something which relates to the primary theme o the series is so casually dismissed.

 

 

OK, an example for foreshadowing that is trivial to the character and has no real impact on anything, but points at something important in the future: when Mat gripes that they can't hear what Fain has to say about Ghealdan, he casually says "Battles interest me." Mat doesn't know a damn thing about what he's going to become at that point. He isn't even aware he's about to leave the Two Rivers. See what I'm saying? It's nothing special in and of itself. Mat just wants to hear about some cool fighting and stuff 'cause he's a young male human who grew up listening to stories about that stuff and he thinks it's cool. It only means more to us, and then only way, way after the fact.

 

That's entirely my point. Subtle foreshadow that reflects a major plot event.

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Well sorry we disagree. Rand thinks many times that his pride was the trap that allowed Alanna to bond him, and the nature and structure of the chapter and Rands thoughts preceding the event strongly suggest that it is not a coincidence, and the message of the scene is that he did indeed lay a trap for himself, as LTT also implies. And what power was death breaking for him them? I can see where you would think that, but I am not convinced that is what was meant there.

 

 

LTT is not Rand. TP is not greater than OP. What you are suggesting is future. Matt liked battles. That led to him actually fighting bunch of them in future. What LTT is stating is a fact. Only a greater power can break a weaker one. In your post I don't even see what you think this line forshadows. It simply cannot be the band thing.

 

In LTT's case. true trap comes from wheel itself. Even if he dies, wheel won't let him die like others. He will forced back into same role as last time. Others don't suffer the same fate. They die and they are reborn without the "dragon" burden. That's his ultimate trap he can never truly break.

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That's entirely my point. Subtle foreshadow that reflects a major plot event.

 

Oh, OK. Nevermind then. It seemed like you were making all that stuff out to be highly significant and definitely not at all crazy-talk.

 

 

Sorry but that thing didn't foreshadow anything. It's a war book and everyone is fighting one battle or another. Even Eqwene or Nyaneve are involved. That comment would have been significant if Mat was the only one fighting. My 2 cents.

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but if it foreshadows a major plot event, it IS significant....because it has elements that suggest that there is more to that plot event than we have seen thus far. :)

 

Regardless, it can still be just a bunch of rambling in the world of the books, which is the distinction I've been trying to make the entire time. Since LTT had no advance knowledge of the Domination Band thing, that couldn't have been what he meant.

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Sorry but that thing didn't foreshadow anything. It's a war book and everyone is fighting one battle or another. Even Eqwene or Nyaneve are involved. That comment would have been significant if Mat was the only one fighting. My 2 cents.

 

Given that Mat is later called "son of battles" and gets a head full of almost nothing but battles, and also the fact that at that point, none of them are fighting anything yet and no one else in the original Two Rivers group says anything like that (the others are more interested in grand tales of adventure, not news of actual wars being fought right that moment. In fact, most people in Emond's Field at that time are completely freaked out by even the idea of war) either then or really ever (that goes especially for the women who early on are often disparaging of that sort of thing), foreshadowing is best explanation for RJ having Mat say that. It's also one of the first things he ever says in the books. Sure, it could just be coincidence, but given the sheer volume of foreshadowing in the novels, I wouldn't bet on it.

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^^ My point is that Mat is not leading the forces of light, Rand is. If that comment foreshadowed Mat getting lot of "battle" memories than I agree with you there but if meant that Mat will end up fighting than it was a meaningless comment since everyone in this book is fighting and no one more than Rand.

 

If Mat had said that he hated battle, he would still have ended up fighting bunch of them.

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I guess I am just talking about a very different thing here. Sure, LTT had no idea that his statement was foreshadowing. That has nothing to do with anything, as foreshadowing is a literary device. But as it has panned out as foreshadowing, and is suggestive that what was foreshadowed is both relevant to something which happened to LTT in his time and perhaps not entirely played out yet, despite how it appears...the line seemed an interesting point to discuss. My head kind of hurts from this "everything is exactly what it seems" perspective here. It is a complex and mostly well written series, where most of the details, even the fine and annoying ones, have a point, and very few things are ever exactly what they seem. If you guys look at life through the same eyes, god help you, people are going to eat you alive.

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This thread is a little weak, but it did make me think of one thing. If LTT is talking about being bound to the wheel, maybe Rands actions at Tarmon Gaidan will rip him from the wheel permanently. We saw what happened with Birgitte, maybe Rands actions will cause him to force the pattern to remove the Dragon from the wheel forever. Maybe as a final mercy to LTT or to resolve some of the thoughts Rand has had about beige tired of being tied to the wheel.

 

It seems to me that in this thread, LTT is saying that no matter what you do, you are trapped to the wheel, to forever fight the same battle over and over. If the Dragon wasn't around anymore to fight, the wheel would choose another to fight the dark forces in the world.

 

No doubt there will be many veterans here who will jump on this and proclaim how stupid this idea is, but we are here to talk and get our ideas out. I see Rand as finally solving the duel between the forces of Light and the forces of Darkness. I see Rand as wanting a final confrontation that will forever rid the wheel of the DO.

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