Rand and Lews Therin...

[Mr Ares]

The difference is that Rand was actually born. And that's a HUGE difference. There was no Moridin before Ishy's soul was put into a new meat suit. The biggest difference between Moridin and Rand is the way both handle one power. While Moridin handles the one power exactly the way Ishy did (strength and knowledge), Rand is still growing. He is neither at his full strength nor he knows as much as LTT knew (Rand picked many weaves from others in this age). Also if Rand had ALL the memories of LTT (even at the end of tGS), are you saying that new Rand knows exactly how LTT created the seals? I doubt it.

Yes, Rand was born and Moridin was not. Which is why Rand his own memories and life experiences in addition to LTT's, as I have mentioned. Aside from that, how else are they different?

Isn't that enough? Having your memories alone and your memories plus those of another man are quite different things.

I was trying to point out the similarities between Moridin and Rand, not that what happened is exactly the same.

 

To clarify:

 

Mr. X has his soul and memories removed. Ishamael's soul and memories are inserted into Mr. X. Mr. X is now Ishamael, who calls himself Moridin.

 

Rand does not have his soul and memories removed. Rand already has LTT's soul and now also LTT's memories. Rand is now Rand + LTT.

 

That's all I was trying to say (in that post).

 

And another incarnation of your soul is not you, it is another person with whom you share a common soul.

Well, IRL I tend to agree with you. If reincarnation did exist, I couldn't care less about my past lives or what they did or thought. "They" are not "me".

 

But in the WoT, the problem Rand has been having is he has been gaining LTT's memories and he has been refusing them as his own. We see this throughout the books and he's sort of right. They aren't this incarnation's memories. Nevertheless, they are his soul's memories and it's not just static memories. It's the emotions, the guilt and desires. In Veins of Gold, Rand finally accepts the memories and emotions as his. He accepts that he and LTT are the same person. That's his epiphany.

In WoT, while Rand gains memories of a past incarnation, they are not his memories, they are someone elses. Rand still has to accept them, but the LTT of the AoL and the Rand of the present are two different people. Veins of Gold can be and is used to support every side of the debate, therefore any conclusions drawn from it on whether or not LTT (historical), LTT (voice) and Rand are separate people, the same person, or what, are arguable. Now, you accept that if reincarnation was real (as some people believe) you would be a different person to those other people whose soul is now yours (which is also what is believed by many of those people), what do you say to the idea of people remembering past lives, here in the real world? Some people do believe that they can recall their previous incarnations, so if you were to give their beliefs the benefit of the doubt, and accept that these people really can remember past lives, then how does that affect their personhood with regards to those other lives? I would contend that even if one could remember ones actions in a past life, even if one was able to dredge up their feelings and even if one had a split personailty based on those past lives, those other lives would still be separate and distinct people from yourself, and the same applies in the WoT.

 

Specifically, in the latter case Moridin retains all the memories of being Ishamael, he began life as an adult, he didn't need to start channeling again of work his way back up to his former strength. He is a continuation. Rand is a fresh start, after the Wheel hit the reset button on his life.

 

Yep. This is exactly what's going on, and RJ himself confirmed it at a Q&A session (the linked transcript is a bit off. I've made some minor corrections. Also, the odd phrasing of the question is due to this Q&A having taken place in Budapest, with the questioner not being a native speaker of English. Also, bolding mine):

 

Q: I have an exciting question, maybe: we were talking about making the Forsaken reborn, so has the original body any reflection to the mind of the recycled Forsaken? So, uh...

 

RJ: Well, if a Forsaken dies and is reborn naturally with the turning of the Wheel, uh, no.

 

Q: Well then...the Dark One puts him in a new body?

RJ: Oh, if the Dark One puts him in a new body, it is for all intents and purposes the same person, with a new body. It is as if he has...it is a shift of an entire person.

 

It is clear from the above that, as RJ used the term, "person" refers to one's current incarnation with all its attendant memories, skills, and personality. A different incarnation is a different person with the same soul. They are indeed not the same, though they obviously (at least, that's how I see it) do have a number of individual traits in common.

I'm not disputing that Moridin is Ishamael or Cyndane is Lanfear, which is all that Q&A suggests.

 

Let's go back to Birgitte, freshly ripped from TAR. Is she a person? If not then what is she? If she died and the DO transmigrated her into a new body, would she be the same person who died, or would she be some new person who only has memories and personalities developed since being ripped out?

 

To me a person is a person, no matter how many incarnations they have inside of them.

I agree that Birgitte is a person. However, the character we meet in the book is a Birgitte, a composite of the memories and personalities of previous lives, but she is not truly the historical Birgitte of the stories, because that Birgitte was not a composite, and enjoyed a separate personhood. "Real" Birgitte (the historical one who was born and died) is a part of "Composite" Birgitte (the one we meet), but other incarnations of her are also part of Composite Birgitte. As an analogy, A is a person, B is a person, and C is a person, ABC is a person created from a blend of A, B and C, but ABC is not him/herself A, B or C, but a separate individual in his/her own right. If CB (Composite Birgitte) were to die and be transmigrated by Shai'tan, she would be a continuation of CB, not a wholly new individual. Going back to Rand, Rand was not a continuation of LTT, he was a new individual, the madness has forced him to become a sort of composite Rand, but that is just a continuation of the existing Rand, not a new individual, so far as we know. ToM may, of course, provide new information to further refine theories.

 

Specifically, in the latter case Moridin retains all the memories of being Ishamael, he began life as an adult, he didn't need to start channeling again of work his way back up to his former strength. He is a continuation. Rand is a fresh start, after the Wheel hit the reset button on his life.

 

Yep. This is exactly what's going on, and RJ himself confirmed it at a Q&A session (the linked transcript is a bit off. I've made some minor corrections. Also, the odd phrasing of the question is due to this Q&A having taken place in Budapest, with the questioner not being a native speaker of English. Also, bolding mine):

 

Q: I have an exciting question, maybe: we were talking about making the Forsaken reborn, so has the original body any reflection to the mind of the recycled Forsaken? So, uh...

 

RJ: Well, if a Forsaken dies and is reborn naturally with the turning of the Wheel, uh, no.

 

Q: Well then...the Dark One puts him in a new body?

RJ: Oh, if the Dark One puts him in a new body, it is for all intents and purposes the same person, with a new body. It is as if he has...it is a shift of an entire person.

 

It is clear from the above that, as RJ used the term, "person" refers to one's current incarnation with all its attendant memories, skills, and personality. A different incarnation is a different person with the same soul. They are indeed not the same, though they obviously (at least, that's how I see it) do have a number of individual traits in common.

 

He hardly goes into detail about Rands situation though does he? Its not like RJ was giving a comparison between the Forsaken and Heroes, just Forsaken and rebirths in general. Rand isnt a normal case, his situation with Lews Therin resembles the Forsakens situation much more than any normal person reborn.

Perhaps, but Rand's situation doesn't truly reflect anyones, other than his own. The returned foursome have no memories of previous lives, same as any other person in the world. They've just had a rather extensive makeover, a new sleeve, and that's it. Mat has memories from other people, and they integrate well with his own (Mat would actually be the closest fit to Rand). Birgitte had memories but started to lose them, but they were all hers to begin with. Rand has another man's memories, and they don't integrate well with his own, leading to friction. He accepts the memories, they integrate, but that doesn't mean that LTT did not have an existence separate to Rand, that they were not different people, much as Mat's memories do nothing to take away from the distinct personhood of their creators. Having the memories of another man does not automatically mean you are that man, it means you are you with his memories. That is true for both Rand and Mat.

[OptimusPrime]

The difference is that Rand was actually born. And that's a HUGE difference. There was no Moridin before Ishy's soul was put into a new meat suit. The biggest difference between Moridin and Rand is the way both handle one power. While Moridin handles the one power exactly the way Ishy did (strength and knowledge), Rand is still growing. He is neither at his full strength nor he knows as much as LTT knew (Rand picked many weaves from others in this age). Also if Rand had ALL the memories of LTT (even at the end of tGS), are you saying that new Rand knows exactly how LTT created the seals? I doubt it.

Yes, Rand was born and Moridin was not. Which is why Rand his own memories and life experiences in addition to LTT's, as I have mentioned. Aside from that, how else are they different?

Isn't that enough? Having your memories alone and your memories plus those of another man are quite different things.

I was trying to point out the similarities between Moridin and Rand, not that what happened is exactly the same.

 

To clarify:

 

Mr. X has his soul and memories removed. Ishamael's soul and memories are inserted into Mr. X. Mr. X is now Ishamael, who calls himself Moridin.

 

Rand does not have his soul and memories removed. Rand already has LTT's soul and now also LTT's memories. Rand is now Rand + LTT.

 

That's all I was trying to say (in that post).

 

And another incarnation of your soul is not you, it is another person with whom you share a common soul.

Well, IRL I tend to agree with you. If reincarnation did exist, I couldn't care less about my past lives or what they did or thought. "They" are not "me".

 

But in the WoT, the problem Rand has been having is he has been gaining LTT's memories and he has been refusing them as his own. We see this throughout the books and he's sort of right. They aren't this incarnation's memories. Nevertheless, they are his soul's memories and it's not just static memories. It's the emotions, the guilt and desires. In Veins of Gold, Rand finally accepts the memories and emotions as his. He accepts that he and LTT are the same person. That's his epiphany.

In WoT, while Rand gains memories of a past incarnation, they are not his memories, they are someone elses. Rand still has to accept them, but the LTT of the AoL and the Rand of the present are two different people. Veins of Gold can be and is used to support every side of the debate, therefore any conclusions drawn from it on whether or not LTT (historical), LTT (voice) and Rand are separate people, the same person, or what, are arguable. Now, you accept that if reincarnation was real (as some people believe) you would be a different person to those other people whose soul is now yours (which is also what is believed by many of those people), what do you say to the idea of people remembering past lives, here in the real world? Some people do believe that they can recall their previous incarnations, so if you were to give their beliefs the benefit of the doubt, and accept that these people really can remember past lives, then how does that affect their personhood with regards to those other lives? I would contend that even if one could remember ones actions in a past life, even if one was able to dredge up their feelings and even if one had a split personailty based on those past lives, those other lives would still be separate and distinct people from yourself, and the same applies in the WoT.

 

Specifically, in the latter case Moridin retains all the memories of being Ishamael, he began life as an adult, he didn't need to start channeling again of work his way back up to his former strength. He is a continuation. Rand is a fresh start, after the Wheel hit the reset button on his life.

 

Yep. This is exactly what's going on, and RJ himself confirmed it at a Q&A session (the linked transcript is a bit off. I've made some minor corrections. Also, the odd phrasing of the question is due to this Q&A having taken place in Budapest, with the questioner not being a native speaker of English. Also, bolding mine):

 

Q: I have an exciting question, maybe: we were talking about making the Forsaken reborn, so has the original body any reflection to the mind of the recycled Forsaken? So, uh...

 

RJ: Well, if a Forsaken dies and is reborn naturally with the turning of the Wheel, uh, no.

 

Q: Well then...the Dark One puts him in a new body?

RJ: Oh, if the Dark One puts him in a new body, it is for all intents and purposes the same person, with a new body. It is as if he has...it is a shift of an entire person.

 

It is clear from the above that, as RJ used the term, "person" refers to one's current incarnation with all its attendant memories, skills, and personality. A different incarnation is a different person with the same soul. They are indeed not the same, though they obviously (at least, that's how I see it) do have a number of individual traits in common.

I'm not disputing that Moridin is Ishamael or Cyndane is Lanfear, which is all that Q&A suggests.

 

Let's go back to Birgitte, freshly ripped from TAR. Is she a person? If not then what is she? If she died and the DO transmigrated her into a new body, would she be the same person who died, or would she be some new person who only has memories and personalities developed since being ripped out?

 

To me a person is a person, no matter how many incarnations they have inside of them.

I agree that Birgitte is a person. However, the character we meet in the book is a Birgitte, a composite of the memories and personalities of previous lives, but she is not truly the historical Birgitte of the stories, because that Birgitte was not a composite, and enjoyed a separate personhood. "Real" Birgitte (the historical one who was born and died) is a part of "Composite" Birgitte (the one we meet), but other incarnations of her are also part of Composite Birgitte. As an analogy, A is a person, B is a person, and C is a person, ABC is a person created from a blend of A, B and C, but ABC is not him/herself A, B or C, but a separate individual in his/her own right. If CB (Composite Birgitte) were to die and be transmigrated by Shai'tan, she would be a continuation of CB, not a wholly new individual. Going back to Rand, Rand was not a continuation of LTT, he was a new individual, the madness has forced him to become a sort of composite Rand, but that is just a continuation of the existing Rand, not a new individual, so far as we know. ToM may, of course, provide new information to further refine theories.

 

Specifically, in the latter case Moridin retains all the memories of being Ishamael, he began life as an adult, he didn't need to start channeling again of work his way back up to his former strength. He is a continuation. Rand is a fresh start, after the Wheel hit the reset button on his life.

 

Yep. This is exactly what's going on, and RJ himself confirmed it at a Q&A session (the linked transcript is a bit off. I've made some minor corrections. Also, the odd phrasing of the question is due to this Q&A having taken place in Budapest, with the questioner not being a native speaker of English. Also, bolding mine):

 

Q: I have an exciting question, maybe: we were talking about making the Forsaken reborn, so has the original body any reflection to the mind of the recycled Forsaken? So, uh...

 

RJ: Well, if a Forsaken dies and is reborn naturally with the turning of the Wheel, uh, no.

 

Q: Well then...the Dark One puts him in a new body?

RJ: Oh, if the Dark One puts him in a new body, it is for all intents and purposes the same person, with a new body. It is as if he has...it is a shift of an entire person.

 

It is clear from the above that, as RJ used the term, "person" refers to one's current incarnation with all its attendant memories, skills, and personality. A different incarnation is a different person with the same soul. They are indeed not the same, though they obviously (at least, that's how I see it) do have a number of individual traits in common.

 

He hardly goes into detail about Rands situation though does he? Its not like RJ was giving a comparison between the Forsaken and Heroes, just Forsaken and rebirths in general. Rand isnt a normal case, his situation with Lews Therin resembles the Forsakens situation much more than any normal person reborn.

Perhaps, but Rand's situation doesn't truly reflect anyones, other than his own.

 

Exactly. His own is different to everyone elses, but it shares similarities with every other example. Mat gained memories. Moridin and co retained their memories because despite dying and returning just like Lewis/Rand, but the different sources of the return from death make for different conditions. Rand gained them to help with his task, but didnt know that. Moridin and co hadnt been reborn with a specific purpose, yet they keep the memories from before their deaths because it is techincally-but ONLY technically-the same lifetime.

 

The returned foursome have no memories of previous lives, same as any other person in the world. They've just had a rather extensive makeover, a new sleeve, and that's it. Mat has memories from other people, and they integrate well with his own (Mat would actually be the closest fit to Rand). Birgitte had memories but started to lose them, but they were all hers to begin with.

 

Wait hold on a minute, if you say Birgittes memories were hers to begin with, do you acknowledge that they were her past lives? If you do, then you cannot deny the contradiction of your own words. Rand has memories of not only Lews Therins life, but of more past lives. Surely the two are the same, even by your own logic. If you yourself say Birgittes past life memories are her own, then there is no reason to believe Rand is different from her. She was a Hero, had past life memories, and is currently not a Hero because she wasnt reborn, thus the loss of past life memories. Rand is exactly the same except that he has been spun out as Senior Hero. The memories are his, just as you said yourself Ares that Birgittes were her own before they started fading.

 

Rand has another man's memories, and they don't integrate well with his own, leading to friction. He accepts the memories, they integrate, but that doesn't mean that LTT did not have an existence separate to Rand, that they were not different people, much as Mat's memories do nothing to take away from the distinct personhood of their creators. Having the memories of another man does not automatically mean you are that man, it means you are you with his memories. That is true for both Rand and Mat.

 

But they are his own memories, just as you said Birgittes were her own. That, dear Ares, is where you should be applying your own logic. It applies to Rand as well as Birgitte, it just took us 12 books to realize.

 

I would love it if Rand and Birgitte had a conversation like "Hey remember this lifetime? That was awesome wasnt it? Oh wait, youre losing your memories? Come here, I know how to fix that." A person isnt just made up of their personality. Their soul is unique, which means if one person is another reborn, they are the same person, just in another lifetime, under different conditions. And besides that, why is it then, that Birgitte always falls in love with Gaidal when both are reborn? It is because she has remnants of her previous personalities, just as Lews Therins personality has been gradually passing on to Rand. The events that affected Lews Therins personality have also affected Rands, and would have done so in the exact same way if he hadnt had the voice to make it feel seperate. Look at Rand in VoG, and tell me he isnt acting with an amalgamation of Lews Therins personality from the MEMORIES, and Moridins through the link. Ilyenas death was as significant to Rand in VoG as it was for Lews Therin when he created Dragonmount, the difference is that Rand made the voice as a buffer from those past life emotions.

 

PS Okay I didnt mean to quote everything but Im not getting rid of it now haha sorry

[Eht Slat Meit]

Personally, I find that it helps (me) to think of this in terms of the madness as well as Birgitte. What exactly is the madness that came from the taint on Saidin, before it was cleansed? We know that men heard "voices" because of the taint, but we also have good cause to believe that those voices represent real people as LTT does for Rand. The taint, a force of shadow and destruction, changed some fundamental about a person not in mind, but spirit.

 

I speculate that the "loss" of memories a spirit has gained between lives is a natural defensive barrier created by the pattern. Men are not spiritually evolved in such a way as to be able to incorporate lives of the past with the present. Mat and Rand are great examples of this rules, as Mat’s memories have been completely restructured, those of the past filling in holes of the present and Rand’s memories are no longer being actively affected by the Taint.

 

The Taint seems to corrode and ultimately destroy the barrier between past life and present, exposing people to that which they are completely unequipped to deal with, the memories lives of dead men they have never met and have no connection (that they are aware of) to. Madness would be the mind recoiling from that information. Or perhaps it’s a natural force, like a tide crushing a sandcastle. Past life and present are not meant by the Creator to be integrated. Exceptions seem to stem from the Shadow.

 

Heroes in the world of dreams are not an exception; they exist in a world of pure spirit, where the memories of all their lifetimes are easily at hand. When they are reborn, they are no longer part of that world, they are spirits attached to a mind and body, and those constructs demand the barriers that protect them against this awareness. Body and mind can and will try to heal the damage, whether the healing is wanted or not (Birgitte). Mat’s mind filled the holes, integrated them seamlessly. Rand comes to terms, reconciling LTT by the belief (not necessarily true in the literal sense) that he and LTT are the same man.

 

I’m also inclined to believe that each life is a life unto itself, as a life is defined by its own set of memories. Rand and LTT are not the same life, but they are a part of the same thread in the pattern. Think of it as beads linked on and to a thread, separated by knots between them that are the barriers of life and death. Each bead makes its mark on the thread, but never comes into contact with another unless the knot is removed. LTT and Rand are simply the known (to readers) beads on the Dragon thread, with all Dragons that came before them being part of the same thread.

 

LTT and Rand are the same person in that they are of the Dragon thread, but they are separate lives and separate people, with their own personalities and loves. Perhaps Birgitte and Gaidal's threads are irrevocably entwined and therefore they are destined to meet and love again?

[OptimusPrime]

The Taint seems to corrode and ultimately destroy the barrier between past life and present

 

Then why does Rand gain access to even more past life memories with the realization that he and Lewis were the same? Saidin was Clean, if the Taint is what makes the barrier weaken then VoG contradicts a lot because Rand hasnt channeled through the Taint for a fair bit now. It cant really be blamed on the True Power either because he only channeled that once in the entire book.

[OptimusPrime]

The Taint seems to corrode and ultimately destroy the barrier between past life and present

 

Then why does Rand gain access to even more past life memories with the realization that he and Lewis were the same? Saidin was Clean, if the Taint is what makes the barrier weaken then VoG contradicts a lot because Rand hasnt channeled through the Taint for a fair bit now. It cant really be blamed on the True Power either because he only channeled that once in the entire book.

 

LTT and Rand are the same person in that they are of the Dragon thread, but they are separate lives and separate people, with their own personalities and loves

 

But Rand left Ilyena on the list because he felt like she was his own love.

[Naffy]

Bottom line is the Rand-LTT connection is different than the Ishmael-Moridin connection. Rand is a different re-incarnation of the same soul that LTT was the previous re-incarnation of. Moridin is the same soul incarnation as Ishamel, just put into a different body. I am not sure why Rand has so many LTT memories since most people do not have memories from their past incarnations. There are exceptions like Mat and the old tongue in TEotW. Moridin has ALL of Ishy's memories because it is trans-migration not re-incarnation.

[Dream]

…what do you say to the idea of people remembering past lives, here in the real world?

I say baloney. And I won’t give them the benefit of the doubt. But that’s all opinion.

 

…"Real" Birgitte (the historical one who was born and died) is a part of "Composite" Birgitte (the one we meet), but other incarnations of her are also part of Composite Birgitte. As an analogy, A is a person, B is a person, and C is a person, ABC is a person created from a blend of A, B and C, but ABC is not him/herself A, B or C, but a separate individual in his/her own right….

I see what you are saying and I do agree that A, B, C and ABC are not exactly alike. But this is my perspective. A is Birgitte having lived life A. B is Birgitte having lived life B and so on. They are ALL “Real” Birgitte, especially Composite Birgitte. Composite Birgitte is Birgitte having lived life A, B, C, and so on. CB is not limited to the experiences of one lifetime and therefore has the freedom to determine her own core values, which encompasses ALL of her multiple lives’ experiences. IMO, she is more true to herself in this state than in any individual incarnation.

 

Similarly, post-VoG Rand isn’t just Rand plus some dead guy’s memories. It’s Rand with ALL of his multiple lives’ experiences. In your terms, this would make him Composite Rand. In my terms, Rand is LTT is Rand. They’re the same person, he just remembers more now.

 

 

 

…

The Taint seems to corrode and ultimately destroy the barrier between past life and present, exposing people to that which they are completely unequipped to deal with, the memories lives of dead men they have never met and have no connection (that they are aware of) to. Madness would be the mind recoiling from that information. Or perhaps it’s a natural force, like a tide crushing a sandcastle. Past life and present are not meant by the Creator to be integrated. Exceptions seem to stem from the Shadow.

…

Now wait one second there.

 

We know the LTT Voice is real from Graendal via Semirhage. We were never told the mechanics of what caused it. But we do know that the Taint was introduced AFTER Graendal and the rest of the Forsaken were imprisoned. And we know that there are very few male channelers by the time she escapes. Therefore, what Graendal relates is her observation from experiments conducted during the AoL. So hearing real voices is a naturally occurring, though very rare, phenomenon and not caused by the Taint.

[Naffy]

I think what Graendal/Semmy (can't remember which) means is that rarely does one gain "knowledge" from their previous life. If they do gain this knowledge and they create another identity in their head to explain it, they are insane.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Now wait one second there.

 

We know the LTT Voice is real from Graendal via Semirhage. We were never told the mechanics of what caused it. But we do know that the Taint was introduced AFTER Graendal and the rest of the Forsaken were imprisoned. And we know that there are very few male channelers by the time she escapes. Therefore, what Graendal relates is her observation from experiments conducted during the AoL. So hearing real voices is a naturally occurring, though very rare, phenomenon and not caused by the Taint.

 

You don't see the correlation between "experiments" performed by a -Forsaken- and the taint of the Shadow on the human human mind/spirit? I'm not suggesting that the voices aren't real, I'm simply saying they're not the same person/life other than by virtue of sharing the same thread and that they're not -normally- already there and accessible. Hearing real voices is the cause of the madness, not the madness itself.

[Dream]

Now wait one second there.

 

We know the LTT Voice is real from Graendal via Semirhage. We were never told the mechanics of what caused it. But we do know that the Taint was introduced AFTER Graendal and the rest of the Forsaken were imprisoned. And we know that there are very few male channelers by the time she escapes. Therefore, what Graendal relates is her observation from experiments conducted during the AoL. So hearing real voices is a naturally occurring, though very rare, phenomenon and not caused by the Taint.

 

You don't see the correlation between "experiments" performed by a -Forsaken- and the taint of the Shadow on the human human mind/spirit? I'm not suggesting that the voices aren't real, I'm simply saying they're not the same person/life other than by virtue of sharing the same thread and that they're not -normally- already there and accessible. Hearing real voices is the cause of the madness, not the madness itself.

To quote Semirhage: Even Graendal usually failed to achieve reintegration with someone who heard a real voice.

 

These "experiments" were the work of a preeminent psychologist who had been healing the mentally ill for four hundred years. Before there was any hint of taint or Shadow. Hearing real voices is not a result of the Shadow, nor is it outside of the Pattern.

[jdbond]

This thread is still alive?

[didymos]

These "experiments" were the work of a preeminent psychologist who had been healing the mentally ill for four hundred years. Before there was any hint of taint or Shadow. Hearing real voices is not a result of the Shadow, nor is it outside of the Pattern.

 

Exactly. The taint causes two different effects:

 

1. It induces insanity. There's no uniformity here: one guy gets delusional parasitosis, Fedwin Morr reverts to a childlike mentality, Rand develops an interactive LTT in his head. There's also nothing particularly special about the conditions that appear. People familiar with mental illness, and especially Semirhage and Graendal, can recognize them as known varieties of crazy.

 

2. The rotting sickness. This is what eventually kills you, provided someone doesn't do it first or you don't destroy yourself with the OP. In this case, the actual disease is unnatural, in that without the taint, no one would ever contract it. Unlike going nuts, which people can and do manage on their own, no Shadow required.

[Mr Ares]

The difference is that Rand was actually born. And that's a HUGE difference. There was no Moridin before Ishy's soul was put into a new meat suit. The biggest difference between Moridin and Rand is the way both handle one power. While Moridin handles the one power exactly the way Ishy did (strength and knowledge), Rand is still growing. He is neither at his full strength nor he knows as much as LTT knew (Rand picked many weaves from others in this age). Also if Rand had ALL the memories of LTT (even at the end of tGS), are you saying that new Rand knows exactly how LTT created the seals? I doubt it.

Yes, Rand was born and Moridin was not. Which is why Rand his own memories and life experiences in addition to LTT's, as I have mentioned. Aside from that, how else are they different?

Isn't that enough? Having your memories alone and your memories plus those of another man are quite different things.

I was trying to point out the similarities between Moridin and Rand, not that what happened is exactly the same.

 

To clarify:

 

Mr. X has his soul and memories removed. Ishamael's soul and memories are inserted into Mr. X. Mr. X is now Ishamael, who calls himself Moridin.

 

Rand does not have his soul and memories removed. Rand already has LTT's soul and now also LTT's memories. Rand is now Rand + LTT.

 

That's all I was trying to say (in that post).

 

And another incarnation of your soul is not you, it is another person with whom you share a common soul.

Well, IRL I tend to agree with you. If reincarnation did exist, I couldn't care less about my past lives or what they did or thought. "They" are not "me".

 

But in the WoT, the problem Rand has been having is he has been gaining LTT's memories and he has been refusing them as his own. We see this throughout the books and he's sort of right. They aren't this incarnation's memories. Nevertheless, they are his soul's memories and it's not just static memories. It's the emotions, the guilt and desires. In Veins of Gold, Rand finally accepts the memories and emotions as his. He accepts that he and LTT are the same person. That's his epiphany.

In WoT, while Rand gains memories of a past incarnation, they are not his memories, they are someone elses. Rand still has to accept them, but the LTT of the AoL and the Rand of the present are two different people. Veins of Gold can be and is used to support every side of the debate, therefore any conclusions drawn from it on whether or not LTT (historical), LTT (voice) and Rand are separate people, the same person, or what, are arguable. Now, you accept that if reincarnation was real (as some people believe) you would be a different person to those other people whose soul is now yours (which is also what is believed by many of those people), what do you say to the idea of people remembering past lives, here in the real world? Some people do believe that they can recall their previous incarnations, so if you were to give their beliefs the benefit of the doubt, and accept that these people really can remember past lives, then how does that affect their personhood with regards to those other lives? I would contend that even if one could remember ones actions in a past life, even if one was able to dredge up their feelings and even if one had a split personailty based on those past lives, those other lives would still be separate and distinct people from yourself, and the same applies in the WoT.

 

Specifically, in the latter case Moridin retains all the memories of being Ishamael, he began life as an adult, he didn't need to start channeling again of work his way back up to his former strength. He is a continuation. Rand is a fresh start, after the Wheel hit the reset button on his life.

 

Yep. This is exactly what's going on, and RJ himself confirmed it at a Q&A session (the linked transcript is a bit off. I've made some minor corrections. Also, the odd phrasing of the question is due to this Q&A having taken place in Budapest, with the questioner not being a native speaker of English. Also, bolding mine):

 

Q: I have an exciting question, maybe: we were talking about making the Forsaken reborn, so has the original body any reflection to the mind of the recycled Forsaken? So, uh...

 

RJ: Well, if a Forsaken dies and is reborn naturally with the turning of the Wheel, uh, no.

 

Q: Well then...the Dark One puts him in a new body?

RJ: Oh, if the Dark One puts him in a new body, it is for all intents and purposes the same person, with a new body. It is as if he has...it is a shift of an entire person.

 

It is clear from the above that, as RJ used the term, "person" refers to one's current incarnation with all its attendant memories, skills, and personality. A different incarnation is a different person with the same soul. They are indeed not the same, though they obviously (at least, that's how I see it) do have a number of individual traits in common.

I'm not disputing that Moridin is Ishamael or Cyndane is Lanfear, which is all that Q&A suggests.

 

Let's go back to Birgitte, freshly ripped from TAR. Is she a person? If not then what is she? If she died and the DO transmigrated her into a new body, would she be the same person who died, or would she be some new person who only has memories and personalities developed since being ripped out?

 

To me a person is a person, no matter how many incarnations they have inside of them.

I agree that Birgitte is a person. However, the character we meet in the book is a Birgitte, a composite of the memories and personalities of previous lives, but she is not truly the historical Birgitte of the stories, because that Birgitte was not a composite, and enjoyed a separate personhood. "Real" Birgitte (the historical one who was born and died) is a part of "Composite" Birgitte (the one we meet), but other incarnations of her are also part of Composite Birgitte. As an analogy, A is a person, B is a person, and C is a person, ABC is a person created from a blend of A, B and C, but ABC is not him/herself A, B or C, but a separate individual in his/her own right. If CB (Composite Birgitte) were to die and be transmigrated by Shai'tan, she would be a continuation of CB, not a wholly new individual. Going back to Rand, Rand was not a continuation of LTT, he was a new individual, the madness has forced him to become a sort of composite Rand, but that is just a continuation of the existing Rand, not a new individual, so far as we know. ToM may, of course, provide new information to further refine theories.

 

Specifically, in the latter case Moridin retains all the memories of being Ishamael, he began life as an adult, he didn't need to start channeling again of work his way back up to his former strength. He is a continuation. Rand is a fresh start, after the Wheel hit the reset button on his life.

 

Yep. This is exactly what's going on, and RJ himself confirmed it at a Q&A session (the linked transcript is a bit off. I've made some minor corrections. Also, the odd phrasing of the question is due to this Q&A having taken place in Budapest, with the questioner not being a native speaker of English. Also, bolding mine):

 

Q: I have an exciting question, maybe: we were talking about making the Forsaken reborn, so has the original body any reflection to the mind of the recycled Forsaken? So, uh...

 

RJ: Well, if a Forsaken dies and is reborn naturally with the turning of the Wheel, uh, no.

 

Q: Well then...the Dark One puts him in a new body?

RJ: Oh, if the Dark One puts him in a new body, it is for all intents and purposes the same person, with a new body. It is as if he has...it is a shift of an entire person.

 

It is clear from the above that, as RJ used the term, "person" refers to one's current incarnation with all its attendant memories, skills, and personality. A different incarnation is a different person with the same soul. They are indeed not the same, though they obviously (at least, that's how I see it) do have a number of individual traits in common.

 

He hardly goes into detail about Rands situation though does he? Its not like RJ was giving a comparison between the Forsaken and Heroes, just Forsaken and rebirths in general. Rand isnt a normal case, his situation with Lews Therin resembles the Forsakens situation much more than any normal person reborn.

Perhaps, but Rand's situation doesn't truly reflect anyones, other than his own.

 

Exactly. His own is different to everyone elses, but it shares similarities with every other example. Mat gained memories. Moridin and co retained their memories because despite dying and returning just like Lewis/Rand, but the different sources of the return from death make for different conditions. Rand gained them to help with his task, but didnt know that. Moridin and co hadnt been reborn with a specific purpose, yet they keep the memories from before their deaths because it is techincally-but ONLY technically-the same lifetime.

No no no no no no, we have no indication that Rand's memories are there to help him with his task - the indications we have are that the memories should not be there.

 

The returned foursome have no memories of previous lives, same as any other person in the world. They've just had a rather extensive makeover, a new sleeve, and that's it. Mat has memories from other people, and they integrate well with his own (Mat would actually be the closest fit to Rand). Birgitte had memories but started to lose them, but they were all hers to begin with.

 

Wait hold on a minute, if you say Birgittes memories were hers to begin with, do you acknowledge that they were her past lives? If you do, then you cannot deny the contradiction of your own words.

There is no contradiction.

Rand has memories of not only Lews Therins life, but of more past lives. Surely the two are the same, even by your own logic. If you yourself say Birgittes past life memories are her own, then there is no reason to believe Rand is different from her. She was a Hero, had past life memories, and is currently not a Hero because she wasnt reborn, thus the loss of past life memories. Rand is exactly the same except that he has been spun out as Senior Hero. The memories are his, just as you said yourself Ares that Birgittes were her own before they started fading.

Birgitte's memories are her own. But these are the memories of composite Birgitte, a person who is created from the memories of all her previous lives, but who is distinct from those lives, as I explained previously. Rand is a separate and distinct life to LTT, the memories of one are not the memories of the other. There is no indication Birgitte is not currently a Hero. Rand is made up of Rand, and should have no-one else in him, that he does is a sign of something being very wrong. Birgitte is made up of previous "Birgitte"'s (all those former incarnations of the soul, regardless of what name they bore), and while having any previous her in her is fine, she shouldn't have any part of anyone else in her (well, maybe a bit of Gaidal... what?). Composite Birgitte should not exist in the world, only T'a'r, and that she does is an indication that something is wrong, but this is a different problem to Rand having the memories of a past life. One of them is supposed to have them, but exist solely in the World of Dreams, the other is not supposed to have them. Thus they are different cases. The Birgitte we meet in the story is a woman who has lived many lives, and consequently remembers them. The Rand we meet has only lived one life, but remembers a previous incarnation of his soul.

 

Rand has another man's memories, and they don't integrate well with his own, leading to friction. He accepts the memories, they integrate, but that doesn't mean that LTT did not have an existence separate to Rand, that they were not different people, much as Mat's memories do nothing to take away from the distinct personhood of their creators. Having the memories of another man does not automatically mean you are that man, it means you are you with his memories. That is true for both Rand and Mat.

 

But they are his own memories, just as you said Birgittes were her own.

I also explained why they were different cases. They are not his memories, they are LTT's. Birgitte's are Birgitte's, and they are those of the previous incarnation that lived any given life. Rand did not live those lives, therefore he should not remember them.

 

Their soul is unique, which means if one person is another reborn, they are the same person, just in another lifetime, under different conditions.

No, it is a different person with the same soul.

And besides that, why is it then, that Birgitte always falls in love with Gaidal when both are reborn?

Because she is spun out as part of the Wheel's self-correction mechanisms, and so has less free will than an ordinary person.

 

…what do you say to the idea of people remembering past lives, here in the real world?

I say baloney. And I won’t give them the benefit of the doubt.

And I say that's a convenient way for you to dodge the question.

 

…"Real" Birgitte (the historical one who was born and died) is a part of "Composite" Birgitte (the one we meet), but other incarnations of her are also part of Composite Birgitte. As an analogy, A is a person, B is a person, and C is a person, ABC is a person created from a blend of A, B and C, but ABC is not him/herself A, B or C, but a separate individual in his/her own right….

I see what you are saying and I do agree that A, B, C and ABC are not exactly alike. But this is my perspective. A is Birgitte having lived life A. B is Birgitte having lived life B and so on. They are ALL “Real” Birgitte, especially Composite Birgitte. Composite Birgitte is Birgitte having lived life A, B, C, and so on. CB is not limited to the experiences of one lifetime and therefore has the freedom to determine her own core values, which encompasses ALL of her multiple lives’ experiences. IMO, she is more true to herself in this state than in any individual incarnation.

You previously accepted that previous incarnations of your soul, if reincarnation existed in real life, would not be you. Thus while all these lives might be real people, they are people who are distinct from you. You do not accept this in Rand's case as he has LTT's memories, but individual Birgitte's lack those memories, and therefore shouldn't they be considered separate and disctinct persons? Further, Mat demonstrates that remembering another life does not mean you and that life are not separate individuals, you are two distinct people with shared memories. Each Birgitte should be considered as a different person, likewise each Rand.

 

Similarly, post-VoG Rand isn’t just Rand plus some dead guy’s memories. It’s Rand with ALL of his multiple lives’ experiences.

Rand's status post VoG remains to be seen.

 

Now wait one second there.

 

We know the LTT Voice is real from Graendal via Semirhage. We were never told the mechanics of what caused it. But we do know that the Taint was introduced AFTER Graendal and the rest of the Forsaken were imprisoned. And we know that there are very few male channelers by the time she escapes. Therefore, what Graendal relates is her observation from experiments conducted during the AoL. So hearing real voices is a naturally occurring, though very rare, phenomenon and not caused by the Taint.

 

You don't see the correlation between "experiments" performed by a -Forsaken- and the taint of the Shadow on the human human mind/spirit?

Graendal wasn't always a Chosen. Before she went evil, dealing with crazy people was her job. That's where she came across this state. The taint doesn't degrade the barrier between lives, unless we wish to invent new powers for it. It causes madness, but the madness it causes takes no specific form - yes, sometimes sufferers hear voices, but people can be insane and hear voices in reality. Past life voices and memories are a rarer form of madness, but all the evidence we have indicates that a form of madness is precisely what it is, and a naturally occuring one at that.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Graendal wasn't always a Chosen. Before she went evil, dealing with crazy people was her job. That's where she came across this state. The taint doesn't degrade the barrier between lives, unless we wish to invent new powers for it. It causes madness, but the madness it causes takes no specific form - yes, sometimes sufferers hear voices, but people can be insane and hear voices in reality. Past life voices and memories are a rarer form of madness, but all the evidence we have indicates that a form of madness is precisely what it is, and a naturally occuring one at that.

 

Who says it's a new power? I'm saying that the madness is a direct result of hearing the voices, not the other way around. It's about the root cause. People cope with things they can't deal with in different ways; they revert to childlike states or they go into raving fits, or a thousand other coping mechanisms.

 

What's the fundamental difference between the voices that are not real and those that are, according to Graendal? Reintegration can only rarely be achieved with a real voice. What does this mean? It means that there are different root causes for the madness - some resulting in hearing imaginary voices, some resulting in real. More importantly, the real voices are exceedingly rare... as opposed to Post-Taint where Cadsuane mentions to Rand about hearing voices, something she's learned from mad male channelers. There's -zero- mention of mental illness in female channelers, so it follows that this is specific to the male channelers. The increased cases more than suggest a link between the two.

 

Why is it more common now? Someone mentioned to me that this can't be Taint-induced because Graendal found these "real" cases pre-Taint, and it occurred to me that I was painting in too-broad strokes. Why was it rare then and not so-rare post-Taint? Probably because, like various states brain-damage, it occurs naturally but not often. Factor in the power of evil and it rises exponentially.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Stuff Stuff sarcastic quip...Stuff. ;]

 

Where have you been???

[Mr Ares]

Graendal wasn't always a Chosen. Before she went evil, dealing with crazy people was her job. That's where she came across this state. The taint doesn't degrade the barrier between lives, unless we wish to invent new powers for it. It causes madness, but the madness it causes takes no specific form - yes, sometimes sufferers hear voices, but people can be insane and hear voices in reality. Past life voices and memories are a rarer form of madness, but all the evidence we have indicates that a form of madness is precisely what it is, and a naturally occuring one at that.

 

Who says it's a new power? I'm saying that the madness is a direct result of hearing the voices, not the other way around.

The madness isn't a result of the voices, nor the voices a result of the madness, the voice, the memories, that is the madness - at least, that is the form it takes in Rand. And given we know the effects of the taint to be madness and rotting, degrading the barriers between lives is either a form of madness, a form of physical rotting, or a new power for the taint.

 

What's the fundamental difference between the voices that are not real and those that are, according to Graendal? Reintegration can only rarely be achieved with a real voice. What does this mean? It means that there are different root causes for the madness - some resulting in hearing imaginary voices, some resulting in real.

Those aren't causes, those are symptoms. Different symptoms might result from essentially the same cause.

More importantly, the real voices are exceedingly rare... as opposed to Post-Taint where Cadsuane mentions to Rand about hearing voices, something she's learned from mad male channelers.

Hearing voices and hearing past life voices are not the same. Cadsuane doesn't specify one over the other, and non-past lives are apparently the more common form of madness than real voices. Therefore, which is she more likely to be referring to?

There's -zero- mention of mental illness in female channelers, so it follows that this is specific to the male channelers.

No, it doesn't. After all, we have very little on mental illness in the series. Most of the people who are mad during the series are male channelers. The taint causes a higher incidence of mental instability. Do we see any insane women at all (and no, Faile, Egwene and Elayne don't count)? We know there are causes of insanity other than the taint in series. That we have seen no insane female channelers indicates only that we have seen no insane female channelers. It doesn't mean saidar immunises against psychotic breaks. If there is zero mention of mental illness in female channelers, it must follow that female channelers cannot suffer from any form of mental illness, by your reasoning. But absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. We have nothing either way. Chances are, female channeler insanity is much as it is in the general population.

 

Why is it more common now?

One case isn't all that common.

Why was it rare then and not so-rare post-Taint?

One case is pretty rare. Rare then, rare now. If there were more cases now, it would be due to more people going mad in general, but we nothing to indicate it is more common now.

 

Stuff Stuff sarcastic quip...Stuff. ;]

 

Where have you been???

It's a mystery. But I needed to be back for ToM, so I could gloat about how right I was in my predictions. Still, at least someone has noticed I'm back.

[Ashaman Kovan]

 

Stuff Stuff sarcastic quip...Stuff. ;]

 

Where have you been???

It's a mystery. But I needed to be back for ToM, so I could gloat about how right I was in my predictions. Still, at least someone has noticed I'm back.

It's a mystery even to you? What have you been right about??

 

I had actually PM'ed Luckers cause I was gonna start a "Where is Mr Ares?" thread, but you had posted like hours before I sent it so you saved me the trouble. :]

[OptimusPrime]

 

Stuff Stuff sarcastic quip...Stuff. ;]

 

Where have you been???

It's a mystery. But I needed to be back for ToM, so I could gloat about how right I was in my predictions. Still, at least someone has noticed I'm back.

It's a mystery even to you? What have you been right about??

 

I had actually PM'ed Luckers cause I was gonna start a "Where is Mr Ares?" thread, but you had posted like hours before I sent it so you saved me the trouble. :]

 

Another Where is Mr Ares thread, that would have been funny

[Dream]

…what do you say to the idea of people remembering past lives, here in the real world?

I say baloney. And I won’t give them the benefit of the doubt.

And I say that's a convenient way for you to dodge the question.

The question was invalid as it was based on incorrect presumptions. I just identified the first mistake and stopped at the first question. To clarify: I don't believe in reincarnation. Nor do I believe people who claim to recall their previous life/lives. But to answer your question, if I remembered by past life and shared the same emotions, then yes, I would be that person. For we were not two men and never had been.

 

Hey, you know what just occurred to me. If we did hear a real voice of our past life, I'd achieve Rand-like reintegration must faster than you would.

[/joke]

 

You previously accepted that previous incarnations of your soul, if reincarnation existed in real life, would not be you. Thus while all these lives might be real people, they are people who are distinct from you.

Yes, and this is why: I cannot say for certain that souls do not exist and that these souls are not born again and again into the world. Therefore, I can accept that I may be a reincarnation of a previous life. I don't believe so, but I can accept the possibility. What I do know is that I have NO MEMORIES of any life save my own. And since I believe that I never ever will, I believe that my personality would be distinct from any other incarnation. However, if I ever do regain my past lives' memories, in this life or in-between lives (among my Hero peers) I would have to admit that this incarnation of *me* was wrong about souls and reincarnation. I would assume resposibility for actions performed in this life as well as actions performed in any past lives I can recall. I would not point to any individual incarnation of me and say, "that wasn't me."

 

You do not accept this in Rand's case as he has LTT's memories, but individual Birgitte's lack those memories, and therefore shouldn't they be considered separate and disctinct persons? Further, Mat demonstrates that remembering another life does not mean you and that life are not separate individuals, you are two distinct people with shared memories. Each Birgitte should be considered as a different person, likewise each Rand.

I'm real. Rand and his world are fictional. I can have two sets of philosophical principles for two different metaphysical worlds that operate under different mechanics. Which is why I may give a different answer depending on which world you are referring to. As I wrote above, if I ever get memories of a previous life, I would have to shift my real world philosophical position to one more aligned with Rand's fictional one.

 

In Mat's case, those memories are from a different soul. It's like reading a really good autobiography. Sometimes, you are so immersed in it you can almost feel what that person was feeling. But it the end, you know it's not you.

 

Similarly, post-VoG Rand isn’t just Rand plus some dead guy’s memories. It’s Rand with ALL of his multiple lives’ experiences.

Rand's status post VoG remains to be seen.

That's true. It certainly seems that way to me by the way it was written.

[Mr Ares]

 

Stuff Stuff sarcastic quip...Stuff. ;]

 

Where have you been???

It's a mystery. But I needed to be back for ToM, so I could gloat about how right I was in my predictions. Still, at least someone has noticed I'm back.

It's a mystery even to you?

Indeed. Such are the intricacies of the Official Secrets Act. Need to know basis, I don't need to know, and I could tell me, but then I'd have to kill me.

What have you been right about??

Well, it's impossible for me to be wrong, so I'm just working on the assumption that when ToM is released it will agree with me in every respect, or Brandon just made a few mistakes.

 

 

Stuff Stuff sarcastic quip...Stuff. ;]

 

Where have you been???

It's a mystery. But I needed to be back for ToM, so I could gloat about how right I was in my predictions. Still, at least someone has noticed I'm back.

It's a mystery even to you? What have you been right about??

 

I had actually PM'ed Luckers cause I was gonna start a "Where is Mr Ares?" thread, but you had posted like hours before I sent it so you saved me the trouble. :]

 

Another Where is Mr Ares thread, that would have been funny

There's still time, you could set it up, and then I could show up and say "I've got no idea where he is, but I hope he shows up soon because he owes me money." Did you lose the old one thread? Do we need to set up a where is the where is Mr Ares thread thread?

 

…what do you say to the idea of people remembering past lives, here in the real world?

I say baloney. And I won’t give them the benefit of the doubt.

And I say that's a convenient way for you to dodge the question.

The question was invalid as it was based on incorrect presumptions. I just identified the first mistake and stopped at the first question.

It's not a mistake, it's a hypothetical situation. You already accepted that if reincarnation did exist, you would not be your previous lives. Why does remembering them change that? Now, some people do believe in reincarnation, and that they can recall past lives. They consider themselves to be different people to their previous lives. Why do you disagree? I don't believe in reincarnation either, but even if my soul was continually reborn, I fail to see why I should be considered responsible for the actions of its previous incarnations. They are not me. If I had another man's memories in my head, while I might remember things as clearly as if they were done by or to me, they were not. The memory is different from the reality.

 

Hey, you know what just occurred to me. If we did hear a real voice of our past life, I'd achieve Rand-like reintegration must faster than you would.

[/joke]

Not hard. If I had a voice in my head, we could be together a long time before we tried starting up a conversation.

 

You previously accepted that previous incarnations of your soul, if reincarnation existed in real life, would not be you. Thus while all these lives might be real people, they are people who are distinct from you.

Yes, and this is why: I cannot say for certain that souls do not exist and that these souls are not born again and again into the world. Therefore, I can accept that I may be a reincarnation of a previous life. I don't believe so, but I can accept the possibility. What I do know is that I have NO MEMORIES of any life save my own. And since I believe that I never ever will, I believe that my personality would be distinct from any other incarnation. However, if I ever do regain my past lives' memories, in this life or in-between lives (among my Hero peers) I would have to admit that this incarnation of *me* was wrong about souls and reincarnation. I would assume resposibility for actions performed in this life as well as actions performed in any past lives I can recall. I would not point to any individual incarnation of me and say, "that wasn't me."

So you accept a hyothetical situation whereby if reincarnation existed, you would be a different person only so long as you didn't remember anything outside your current life. After all, you said that if it did exist, you would still be a different person, but you also accept that if you remembered it you would not be a different person. To me, that seems a little odd, and a tad inconsistent as a philosophical position. Your individuality is contingent on you being unable to remember being a different person, not on incarnations of the soul being either different or the same. So presumably, Rand would be a different person to LTT, up until he started gaining the memories of the latter in book 4.

 

You do not accept this in Rand's case as he has LTT's memories, but individual Birgitte's lack those memories, and therefore shouldn't they be considered separate and disctinct persons? Further, Mat demonstrates that remembering another life does not mean you and that life are not separate individuals, you are two distinct people with shared memories. Each Birgitte should be considered as a different person, likewise each Rand.

I'm real. Rand and his world are fictional. I can have two sets of philosophical principles for two different metaphysical worlds that operate under different mechanics. Which is why I may give a different answer depending on which world you are referring to. As I wrote above, if I ever get memories of a previous life, I would have to shift my real world philosophical position to one more aligned with Rand's fictional one.

 

In Mat's case, those memories are from a different soul. It's like reading a really good autobiography. Sometimes, you are so immersed in it you can almost feel what that person was feeling. But it the end, you know it's not you.

But functionally, what difference is there between memory of a previous incarnation of your soul, and memory of a different soul? It's not like a really good autobiography, it's like you can feel what it was like to be there, like you can remember things that never happened to you. Mat can remember being those people as clearly as Rand can remember being LTT. Which again complicates your claimed worldview. Hypothetically, having the same soul doesn't make you the same person, it's having the memories of being that person. But the memories are not enough, so you need both memories and soul to be the same. Is that correct? The real world/fiction divide makes for an unsatisfying answer - your initial claim was that if reincarnation existed in the real world, you would not be the same person as your previous incarnations. "If reincarnation did exist, I couldn't care less about my past lives or what they did or thought. "They" are not "me"." Those were your exact words. So you accept that, in a hypothetical situation where souls exist and can be reincarnated and live many lives, different people could have the same soul. In the WoT, where this is the reality, you do not accept it. I fail to see the distinction you are making, I really do, it just looks like you've contradicted yourself. If you believed in reincarnation to begin with, the real/fictional distinction would hold more water. But given that you spoke from a postion of not believing in reincarnation, you were basically using two fictional examples: how the WoT system works, and how the real world version would work if you believed that there was one, and then making them arbitrarily different. I think, perhaps, you might need to clarify your position before debate can continue.

[Dream]

It's not a mistake, it's a hypothetical situation. You already accepted that if reincarnation did exist, you would not be your previous lives. Why does remembering them change that? Now, some people do believe in reincarnation, and that they can recall past lives. They consider themselves to be different people to their previous lives. Why do you disagree? I don't believe in reincarnation either, but even if my soul was continually reborn, I fail to see why I should be considered responsible for the actions of its previous incarnations. They are not me. If I had another man's memories in my head, while I might remember things as clearly as if they were done by or to me, they were not. The memory is different from the reality.

Why should I agree? I don't even believe them when they say the can remember their previous lives. Why should I believe them when they say they were different people.

 

I can look in a photo album and recall events in my past and their associated emotions that I have since forgotten. Was that person not me? I can close my eyes and relive my younger days, back when I was foolish and naive. I am a "different person" now and if I had the same options then, knowing what I know now, I would have made different decisions. Was that younger version of me not me?

 

Hey, you know what just occurred to me. If we did hear a real voice of our past life, I'd achieve Rand-like reintegration must faster than you would.

[/joke]

Not hard. If I had a voice in my head, we could be together a long time before we tried starting up a conversation.

Guess we're just wired differently. I constantly talk to the voice in my head. The problem is, he's always agreeing with me. Man, is he ever boring.

 

So you accept a hyothetical situation whereby if reincarnation existed, you would be a different person only so long as you didn't remember anything outside your current life. After all, you said that if it did exist, you would still be a different person, but you also accept that if you remembered it you would not be a different person. To me, that seems a little odd, and a tad inconsistent as a philosophical position. Your individuality is contingent on you being unable to remember being a different person, not on incarnations of the soul being either different or the same. So presumably, Rand would be a different person to LTT, up until he started gaining the memories of the latter in book 4.

Not quite right. It's not whether one remembers their past lives or not. It's whether or not it is possible to remember past lives. I believe in my individuality because there is no such thing as remembering past lives. Whether or not we are reborn again becomes a moot point since no one will ever realise it. Now if it turns out people can remember past lives, in the here and now or even in-between, then I would believe in the continuity of life, regardless of whether or not I personally remember.

 

But functionally, what difference is there between memory of a previous incarnation of your soul, and memory of a different soul? It's not like a really good autobiography, it's like you can feel what it was like to be there, like you can remember things that never happened to you. Mat can remember being those people as clearly as Rand can remember being LTT. Which again complicates your claimed worldview. Hypothetically, having the same soul doesn't make you the same person, it's having the memories of being that person. But the memories are not enough, so you need both memories and soul to be the same. Is that correct?

I think I've clarified my position above, but just in case, let me recap:

Your continued mistake is that you think I accept it is possible to remember past lives. I don't. I can accept the possibility or reincarnation because that is not verifiable. However, I do not accept that we can remember past lives because I can't, no one I know can, and no who claims to be able to has proven themselves sufficiently. There is no inconsistency because if it is not possible to remember past lives then there would never be an intersect between me and my past lives. And since I will never ever know of anything my past lives may have done, then "I couldn't care less about my past lives." Without the possibility of intersect whether we are the same person becomes irrelevant.

 

This is different from the WoT, where people can and do remember past lives.

 

The real world/fiction divide makes for an unsatisfying answer - your initial claim was that if reincarnation existed in the real world, you would not be the same person as your previous incarnations. "If reincarnation did exist, I couldn't care less about my past lives or what they did or thought. "They" are not "me"." Those were your exact words. So you accept that, in a hypothetical situation where souls exist and can be reincarnated and live many lives, different people could have the same soul. In the WoT, where this is the reality, you do not accept it. I fail to see the distinction you are making, I really do, it just looks like you've contradicted yourself. If you believed in reincarnation to begin with, the real/fictional distinction would hold more water. But given that you spoke from a postion of not believing in reincarnation, you were basically using two fictional examples: how the WoT system works, and how the real world version would work if you believed that there was one, and then making them arbitrarily different. I think, perhaps, you might need to clarify your position before debate can continue.

I did not arbitrarily make them different. You arbitrarily made them the same. I gave you my thoughts under my own parameters. If you want to argue what I said, you'll have to do so under my parameters.

 

You then presented your own set of parameters. One that I have stated I disagreed with. I then gave you a different perspective based on your parameters. I did not contradict myself. You are just confusing the two issues.

[nojnomad]

Never has so little been discussed so thoroughly…

[didymos]

Never has so little been discussed so thoroughly…

 

Not true: see 4chan.

[Mr Ares]

It's not a mistake, it's a hypothetical situation. You already accepted that if reincarnation did exist, you would not be your previous lives. Why does remembering them change that? Now, some people do believe in reincarnation, and that they can recall past lives. They consider themselves to be different people to their previous lives. Why do you disagree? I don't believe in reincarnation either, but even if my soul was continually reborn, I fail to see why I should be considered responsible for the actions of its previous incarnations. They are not me. If I had another man's memories in my head, while I might remember things as clearly as if they were done by or to me, they were not. The memory is different from the reality.

Why should I agree?

Why not? You do not need to accept the reality of their beliefs. But people who do believe in past lives do not consider themselves the same people as their past lives, whether or not they are convinced of their memories of those lives. Why do you consider them wrong in this belief, in addition to your disbelief in their being reincarnated or remembering it to begin with?

 

I can look in a photo album and recall events in my past and their associated emotions that I have since forgotten. Was that person not me?

That person was you. That person would still be you if you were amnesiac and couldn't remember it.

 

So you accept a hyothetical situation whereby if reincarnation existed, you would be a different person only so long as you didn't remember anything outside your current life. After all, you said that if it did exist, you would still be a different person, but you also accept that if you remembered it you would not be a different person. To me, that seems a little odd, and a tad inconsistent as a philosophical position. Your individuality is contingent on you being unable to remember being a different person, not on incarnations of the soul being either different or the same. So presumably, Rand would be a different person to LTT, up until he started gaining the memories of the latter in book 4.

Not quite right. It's not whether one remembers their past lives or not. It's whether or not it is possible to remember past lives. I believe in my individuality because there is no such thing as remembering past lives. Whether or not we are reborn again becomes a moot point since no one will ever realise it. Now if it turns out people can remember past lives, in the here and now or even in-between, then I would believe in the continuity of life, regardless of whether or not I personally remember.

So you are individual only so long as no one can convince you of reincarnation. An odd position. So truth is contingent on people being able to realise it? Surely the nth digit of pi would be the same whether or not anyone calculated it? Likewise, if souls were reincarnated, why is that alone not enough to consider yourself the same or separate from your hypothetical other selves, why do you need to know, or at least know that someone knows, before you could consider yourself the same?

 

But functionally, what difference is there between memory of a previous incarnation of your soul, and memory of a different soul? It's not like a really good autobiography, it's like you can feel what it was like to be there, like you can remember things that never happened to you. Mat can remember being those people as clearly as Rand can remember being LTT. Which again complicates your claimed worldview. Hypothetically, having the same soul doesn't make you the same person, it's having the memories of being that person. But the memories are not enough, so you need both memories and soul to be the same. Is that correct?

I think I've clarified my position above, but just in case, let me recap:

Your continued mistake is that you think I accept it is possible to remember past lives.

No, it isn't. That is not a mistake I have ever made. I have made clear that I accept you do not believe in people remembering past lives. Are you not reading my posts? If not, there is precious little point continuing.

And since I will never ever know of anything my past lives may have done, then "I couldn't care less about my past lives."

You went further, though - they are not you. Not simply that it's a moot point because it is forever unknown, and unknowable, but it categorically is not the case, that was your stated position.

Without the possibility of intersect whether we are the same person becomes irrelevant.

As I say, you have changed your position.

 

The real world/fiction divide makes for an unsatisfying answer - your initial claim was that if reincarnation existed in the real world, you would not be the same person as your previous incarnations. "If reincarnation did exist, I couldn't care less about my past lives or what they did or thought. "They" are not "me"." Those were your exact words. So you accept that, in a hypothetical situation where souls exist and can be reincarnated and live many lives, different people could have the same soul. In the WoT, where this is the reality, you do not accept it. I fail to see the distinction you are making, I really do, it just looks like you've contradicted yourself. If you believed in reincarnation to begin with, the real/fictional distinction would hold more water. But given that you spoke from a postion of not believing in reincarnation, you were basically using two fictional examples: how the WoT system works, and how the real world version would work if you believed that there was one, and then making them arbitrarily different. I think, perhaps, you might need to clarify your position before debate can continue.

I did not arbitrarily make them different.

Yes, you did. You have contradicted yourself, and your attempts to clarify have only shown this more clearly.

 

Never has so little been discussed so thoroughly…

You must be new. This is nothing.

[Dream]

...

So you are individual only so long as no one can convince you of reincarnation. An odd position. So truth is contingent on people being able to realise it? Surely the nth digit of pi would be the same whether or not anyone calculated it? Likewise, if souls were reincarnated, why is that alone not enough to consider yourself the same or separate from your hypothetical other selves, why do you need to know, or at least know that someone knows, before you could consider yourself the same?

...

Not even close...

 

I've made my position excessively clear in my previous posts.

 

Since you've added nothing new in your latest post, I have nothing to reply to.

 

If you disagree with me, that is your right.

 

If you still don't understand, I won't repeat myself so you'll just have to RAFO.