The Mysteries of Cyndane

[Luckers]

The Mysteries of Cyndane

 

Is Cyndane Lanfear?

 

The short answer is, yes. There was some confusion over this based around Demandred’s comment that the Forsaken no longer thought Cyndane to be Lanfear based on Graendal’s assertion that Cyndane was weaker than Lanfear had been. However the similarities between Cyndane and Lanfear essentially prove that to be wrong, from the way she strives for height to the way she refers to Rand as Lews Therin and speaks so knowledgeably of the Age of Legends. The most telling piece of evidence, however, comes at the end of Winter’s Heart.

 

So, [Rand] had found a woman to use the Access Key for him. [Cyndane] would have faced the Great Lord—faced the Creator!—with him. She would have shared power with him, let him rule the world at her side. And he had spurned her love. Spurned her.

[WH: 35 – With the Choedan Kal – 641]

 

[Alivia] was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible. No woman could be stronger.

[WH: 35 – With the Choedan Kal – 649]

 

The combination of these quote make it certain that Cyndane and Lanfear were the same woman. No other woman ever offered to use the Choedan Kal to challenge the Creator and the Dark One with Rand, no other Forsaken loved Rand, no other Forsaken had been held by the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn, and if Cyndane had not been Lanfear prior, than Lanfear would have been stronger than she was, which goes against the quote. Essentially, Cyndane is Lanfear.

 

How did Lanfear end up in her new body?

 

Basically, she died and was recycled by the Dark One. Some people initially suggested that the Finns granted Lanfear’s new body based on a ‘wish’ by either her, or Moiraine (the theories varied as to the purpose and effect of this ‘wish’), but RJ settled this question at DragonCon 2005.

 

Tamyrlin: The snakes and foxes seem to have a lot of powers. Do they also have the power... I have two questions: can they transmigrate souls? Two: can they hold the soul of an individual they have killed?

 

RJ: No… No to both.

 

So, no, it wasn’t the Finns.

 

How did Lanfear lose her strength?

 

There are five major suggestions for the source of Lanfear’s lost strength that I have seen.

 

1. The Cyndane body was not as strong as Lanfear’s in the One Power.

 

This was suggested often when Cyndane first appeared weaker, and at first glance it does hold some merit in that we know it takes the Shadow some time to find suitable bodies to contain their disenfranchised Chosen—thus perhaps it is the issue of looking for a body with a strong enough ability to channel that takes the time.

 

However, if this were the case, how was it that Moridin, Osan’gar and (perhaps most importantly) Aran’gar retained their exact strength and connection to the Source? Demandred’s thoughts on Cyndane—specifically that her reduced strength made it unlikely that she was Lanfear—indicate that all three of the other Recycled Forsaken’s strength’s were exactly the same as what they had been before transmigration. It therefore seems odd that the Shadow managed to find three bodies which exactly match the strength’s of their host souls (not the least finding a woman to match a strong male channeler), and one that did not.

 

2. That saidar channelers are effected by transmigration differently to saidin channelers

 

Follow the logic from point one, one may point out that Lanfear is the only woman (the only saidar channeler) we have seen transmigrated, and that perhaps transmigration effects saidar channelers differently than saidin channelers, in which case it was the souls state, not the bodies's state which caused the loss. Lacking evidence one way or the other, its valid conjecture.

 

3. The Dark One purposefully reduced Cyndane’s strength as punishment.

 

We know that Cyndane was in a lot of trouble when she was transmigrated. Attacking Rand against orders, going off on her own, and so on and so forth… so the suggestion was that the decline in power resulted from the Dark One’s anger. Now, even if you accept that the Dark One could do this—and there is no evidence of anything of the sort—this makes very little sense. For starters, Cyndane was immediately bound by a cour’souvra. This ensured complete control of Cyndane by the Shadow.

 

This is where it begins to make no sense. The Dark One has shown that he has a high appreciation of the value of his Chosen’s strength and proficiency at channeling. RJ has even commented on how little he trusts Third Age channelers, so here is the question: Why would the Dark One hamstring himself by weakening Cyndane? At this stage he has total control of Cyndane; making her nothing more than a tool, and it makes no sense for the Dark One to limit the effectiveness of that tool, especially when he has already punished her by trapping her soul.

 

Some people argue that the Dark One is so alien that normal conceptions of common sense don’t apply; and they are partially correct. Yet when it comes to his agenda’s, and his beliefs (that Second Age channelers are more useful) the Dark One is not a fool. There is a pattern of logic that he does indeed follow, and under that pattern it makes no sense for him to have reduced Cyndane’s strength.

 

4. Could the Finns have altered Lanfear’s strength?

 

There have been a number of theories about Finn involvement, including Lanfear making a badly worded wish, her paying for a wish with some of her strength, of Moiraine asking for, and taking Lanfear’s excess strength, but the fact is that all of these are unlikely.

 

For starters, despite the perception of the Finns as magical creatures akin to genies, bound to give three wishes as an innate part of their being, we know that this is not true. The Finns offer a service, a skill that they have, in exchange for something they desire. The nature of the relationship between humanity and the Finns is very much that of a trade agreement—and we know this for a fact. The agreement with humans is something that was reached, not expected on behalf of humans; and based on the Eelfinn we meet who is wearing human skin, the agreement is not something they hold to like some magical law. If broken, they react.

 

Then we have Moiraine and Lanfear. Their arrival not only severs a source of trade that the Finns doubtlessly find highly valuable, but if what occurred on this side of the doorway is any indication then they also caused a rather vicious fire, which as a source of light is expressly forbidden in the treaty. If someone kicked in a merchants door, bringing with them something expressly illegal—and dangerous—then that merchant is unlikely to offer to serve that individual.

 

Beyond that, we also have evidence of the Finns have some sort of problem with the Shadow—the snakes actively punish people who even ask questions that might relate to the Shadow, and here we have Lanfear who is as close to the Shadow made flesh as it is possible to get. This isn’t set in stone, of course, but it does indicate a certain degree of aversion may be present.

 

And indeed, we even have direct proof of the Finns unhappiness in the fact that Lanfear and Moiraine were both held against there will, and Lanfear later ended up dead. Essentially it is very unlikely to expect the Finns to offer Lanfear or Moiraine any wishes.

 

5. Cyndane was severed from the Source, and healed by a woman.

 

This one is a little more convoluted, so I will handle it in parts.

 

The Circumstances in Cairhein

 

When we last saw Lanfear she stood channeling through an angreal that Moiraine clawed out of her hands as they both fell through a ter’angreal which subsequently exploded, depositing them in a world with vastly different physical laws (as per RJ). From the beginning of the series we have been warned time and again of the dangers of channeling near ter’angreal. Add to that the fight over the angreal and the transportation to a different reality, and the likelihood that they weren’t both burned out becomes slim.

 

Beyond which, at that exact moment Lan’s bond to Moiraine was snapped, and as far as we’ve seen only two things cause a bond to snap—death and the Aes Sedai being severed from the True Source. Since we know Moiraine did not die (as of Knife of Dreams), than that leaves the possibility of being severed.

 

Now, as a side point, some suggest that the bond was severed when the passage between the two realities was severed, and yet there is still a passage between the real world, and the realm of the Finns in existence—so a connection still exists, and we see Moiraine’s bond withstand such distance in tSR so long as a connection was in place. Still, there is nothing to absolutely rule this out as a possibility.

 

A final piece of evidence of them being burned out can be found in the fact that the Finns managed to hold Moiraine and Lanfear (which we know they did between Moiraine’s letter in KoD and Lanfear’s comment in Winter’s Heart). We also know that channeling works against the Finns as a deterent since Rand manages to hold the Finn of with his fiery sword. So, the question is this: If Moiraine and Lanfear weren’t severed, how did the Finns manage to hold them? Both possessed their own angreal, and both would have been at least somewhat aware of how to deal with the Finn’s (fire, music, iron). Indeed, it’s likely Lanfear even knew of the Tower of Ghenjei, and the way out of Finnland. So how did the Finns contain these two powerful channelers?

 

Some suggest the Finns have the ability to break weaves of the Power, as with Mat’s ter’angreal. Yet the presence of the Aes Sedai symbol small as the foxes eye on that ter’angreal suggest it was made by the Aes Sedai for the Finns, not the other way round. Moreover, Cyndane’s shock upon encountering a similar ter’angreal when she was fighting Alivia essentially proves that she had never encountered anything of the sort prior to that event.

 

Can Burning Out Even Be Healed?

 

It's uncertain, as of yet. People point out that burn outs cannot sense the source, indicating a higher degree of damage had been done, however I would draw everyone's attention to a few things. Firstly, the destinction of severing someone and leaving them able to sense the source is a function of the Aes Sedai method of stilling, as cited here from the Glossaries.

 

stilling: The act, performed by Aes Sedai, of shutting off a woman who can channel from the One Power. A woman who has been stilled can sense the True Source, but she cannot touch it.

 

Nynaeve describes the nature of that method, here.

 

The knife-sharp shield that Egwene had used to still Amico Nagoyin sprang into being, more weapon than shield, lashed at Moghedien-and was blocked, woven Spirit straining against woven Spirit, just short of severing Moghedien from the Source forever. Again the Forsaken's counterblow came, slashing like an axe, intended to cut Nynaeve off in the same way. Forever. Desperately Nynaeve blocked it.

 

Suddenly she realized that under her anger she was terrified. Holding off the other woman's attempt to still her while trying to do the same to her took everything she had. The Power boiled in her till she thought she must burst; her knees quivered with the effort of standing. And all went into those two things; she could not spare enough to light a candle. Moghedien's axe of Spirit waxed and waned in sharpness, but that would not matter if the woman managed to drive it home; Nynaeve could not see any real difference in outcome between being stilled by the woman and merely--merelyl-being shielded and at her mercy. The thing brushed against the flow of Power from the Source into her, like a knife hovering over a chicken's stretched neck.

 

[tSR; 54, Into the Palace]

 

In effect a sharp version of the Shield weave. Now consider the way Rand severs Ronaille, Irgaine and Sashelle from the Source.

 

The Power filled him, and as it did, he seized at those three soft points, crushing them ruthlessly in fists of Spirit.

 

[LoC; 55, Dumai's Well's]

 

Alot of people simply say that this must then be the male method of stilling--which seems unlikely. The male shield is described the same as the female shield. If the female method of stilling is an alteration of that shield, it stands to reason that the male method would be as well.

 

But even if this is the male method of stilling, its still not the knife sharp weave stated to leave a person able to sense the True Source. Indeed, despite the fact that Rand did this to them, and is thus termed to have 'stilled' them, the effect bears far more similarity to what occurs when a ter'angreal goes wrong. He crushed flows they were maintaining, thereby over-stressing their ability and searing it out of them. Consider that against Egwene's bad experience with the broken Access Key ter'angreal.

 

As her hand grasped it, the Power surged within her, into the half-figure then back into her, into the figure and back, in and back. The crystal sphere flickered in fitful, lurid flashes, and needles stabbed her brain with each flash. With a sob of agony, she loosed her hold and clasped both hands to her head.

 

[tSR; 11, What Lies In Shadow]

 

The ter'angreal seizes the power in her, rips it in a way that over-stresses Egwene's ability. Had she held on it very likely would have burned her out or killed her--Lanfear certainly implies as much in [tFoH; 6, Gateways].

 

Anyway the point here is that what Rand did to Ronaille, Sashelle and Irgain seems to bear much more relation to burning out than it does to the knife-sharp weave that is cited to leave the person able to channel, yet those three all get healed. That far from sets it in stone, but it does at least nudge us at the probability that Burning Out can indeed be healed.

 

If She Was Healed, How Did It Happen?

 

So, we know that after being held for a time, Lanfear died and was recycled into a new body. Maria tells us that the channeling state remains constant across the transmigration bridge.

 

MAFO #7 - If you were burned out and then transmigrated, would you still be burned out? [[brandon] answered that [he] was pretty sure that it was a yes, but that we should feel free to MAFO].

 

Maria's Answer # 7 - Yes, you would. Jim said that “neither burning out or stilling affects that except in this lifetime, your current lifetime.” (DragonCon), but transmigration is not really a different lifetime; more than just the soul moves. The new person (I’m at a loss for words here) also has the memories of the previous person, and its personality, and such. So Brandon is correct.

 

So, if Cyndane were returned to life burned out, how would the Shadow react? At this stage Moghedian had just been brought to Shayol Goul, and even if she didn’t inform the Shadow of Nynaeve’s discovery, the fact that the Shadow knew to rescue her shows that they are keeping close eyes on the Rebel Aes Sedai, and the likelihood that such a marvel as a way to heal being severed had not reached Moridin’s ears is very slim.

 

Now this was prior to Finn’s discovery, so the Shadow had no way of knowing that a man would heal a woman to full strength, so the obvious and logical option for the Shadow, rather than leave one of the Forsaken unable to channel, would be to summon a Black Sister from amongst the Rebels to heal Cyndane… for even a weakened Chosen is better than a severed Chosen. Indeed we know one of the women who specifically set out to learn and improve Nynaeve’s technique was a Black sister—Dagdara.

 

From there the function of the healing is easy. A dream message to Aran’gar and a Black ‘Yellow’ Sister sent to Shayol Goul by gateway. It would not have even aroused any suspicion, because as Siuan observes, at any one time up to twenty sisters are off elsewhere in the world attending to other matters.

 

The Discrepancies Between the Loss of Strength

 

The most vehement argument against Cyndane having been severed, and healed by a woman is that Siuan and Leane lost such a large amount of strength, whilst Cyndane only lost a little. Previously I had argued that Siuan and Leane had not lost as much strength as they appeared to—that the degree of their loss were accentuated by the limited range of the Aes Sedai hierarchy. Maria shot me down.

 

9. Question--In [LoC; 30, To Heal Again - 617] Siuan, after being healed, says to Nynaeve that ‘if she could heal her to half of what she was’ she would be better off. This has led to the perception that Siuan and Leane are less than half their original strength. Yet in [CoT; 19, Surprises – 459] we find out that both women stand several steps above the Aes Sedai minimum strength. This seems problematic—the range of Aes Sedai strength does not appear to be so great as to allow for this. So the question is, did Siuan and Leane in fact lose such a large amount of strength as they appear to have?

 

Maria Answers--Yes, they did lose a large amount of strength. The range of strength is greater than you think, I believe. At the beginning, Siuan was near the top (and Leane close behind); if she were half the strength she used to be, she’d be in the middle. Instead, she’s somewhere in the lower half, but not absolute rock bottom, nor nearly as low as Daigian Moseneillin.

 

As such this remains the greatest problem for the Healing Theory. Here are some of the alternate explanations I’ve seen.

 

1. That the stronger a woman is in the Power, the less strength she loses in a same-gender healing.

 

2. That someone (usually Semirhage, though I point out again that Dagdara, a known black, was hell bent on improving Nynaeve’s method) improved the method so less strength was lost.

 

3. That after being healed by a woman, Cyndane was later re-healed by an Asha’men, bringing her strength back up a bit.

 

4. That the Dark One made an effort to improve the healing.

 

Conclusions

 

Lanfear is Cyndane. The two more likely answers for her decline in strength are that saidar channelers are weakened during the transmigration process, or that Cyndane was burned out and healed by a woman. The first has the value of nothing opposes it, however there is absolutely no evidence to suggest it. The second has the value of being supported by the circumstances of Lanfear's fall into Finnland, and the fact that to date the only thing we've seen weaken a channelers strength is being severed and healed by the same gender, however it suffers the strange discrepency between the amount of strength Cyndane lost, and the amounts lost by Siuan and Leane.

 

A Few Final Facts

 

1. For a long time people theorized that Cyndane might be disguised as Sylvase, which you can read about here if you so wish, however Brandon ruled this out.

 

11. TheWindRose asked. Are there any forsaken around Elayne? Brandon paused for a moment, then said. So many people are trying to figure out where Demandred is, I am not sure I can answer that. Forkroot and I both said no not Demandred, we were talking Cyndane or Moghedian. Then we said for example some postulate that Sylvaese is Cyndane. he said "no, sylvaese is not a forsaken and was never intended to be."

[samadai's Tor Q&A]

 

2. Similarily, based on timing and a relative similarity of appearence, some suggested Cyndane's body might have formerly belonged to Cabriana Meccandes. Maria ruled this out.

 

10. Question-- Was Cyndane's new body originally Cabriana Meccandes?

 

Maria Answers--No. [alternately, I could RAFO this, although it seemed so far-fetched to me that it seems okay to answer it]

 

[My Plot Related Q&A With Maria]

[Barid Bel Medar]

Im not sure what went down, its a pretty comprehensive detail of the theory. Id say that one of these is correct, but not sure which one.

 

What about the theory Cyndane = Lanfear + Moiraine.

 

I think its a load of rubbish, but I havent actually heard what its about. Anyone have any insight into this theory? Id like to have a look and see if i can disprove.

 

It is blasphemy, I wish to squash it

[FarShainMael]

OI!!!

 

That was mine! How dare you call it blasphemy!!

 

Hang on while I look for it. It's on these boards somewhere.. (goes off muttering to self)

[Barid Bel Medar]

OI!!!

 

That was mine! How dare you call it blasphemy!!

 

Hang on while I look for it. It's on these boards somewhere.. (goes off muttering to self)

 

 

haha, sorry, but I am finding it very difficult.

 

Thats why i want to have a look, see if its credible.

 

For all i know, you could be spot on, but it seems just another looney theory no offence intended

[FarShainMael]

OI!!!

 

That was mine! How dare you call it blasphemy!!

 

Hang on while I look for it. It's on these boards somewhere.. (goes off muttering to self)

 

 

haha, sorry, but I am finding it very difficult.

 

Thats why i want to have a look, see if its credible.

 

For all i know, you could be spot on, but it seems just another looney theory no offence intended

 

Hang on. This is playing Shayol Ghul with my posts.. I'll straighten them out in a mo.

 

I'm not saying, nor do I actually think, that Lanfear and Cyndane are two completely different people. What I'm skeptical about is the idea that Cyndane is the one-to-one, cut-and-paste successor to Lanfear. Cyndane is of Lanfear, that much seems certain, but I'm not convinced that Lanfear is entirely explained by and accounted for in the form of "Cyndane." Does that make sense?

 

People have always assumed that Lanfear was either killed or trapped in Finnland, and the Dark One or the Finns transmigrated her into a new body and gave her the name Cyndane. Badda-bing, badda-boom, off to Moridin to be mindtrapped and then off to Randland to be a good little lackey. Whether or not those events actually occurred, I think something more significant also happened to her at the hands of the Finns. I just don't know what that might be.

 

One possibility might be that the 'finns merged her with Moiraine and transmigrated the pair of them. The only reason I think this is that so far we've only seen one such merging - Slayer - and it feels like such a loose end, a story arc that doesn't seem to go anywhere in particular. But Slayer too may possibly have a connection with the ToG, Perrin having dream-followed him to where he vanished near it.

 

If so, it's going to present Mat and co with a pretty problem trying to extricate her!

 

If she knew she was going to come back as a lanfear/mo hybrid, I have my serious doubts that she'd WANT to be rescued (she'd consider herself an unstable wildcard and take herself out of play, most likely). She'd either not give Thom the hint that she's alive OR she'd go so far as to prevent a rescue. The only thing that tells me that Tower of Ghenjei rescue isn't a pre-emptive trap is that she wouldn't risk Mat (and I SUSPECT that she likes Thom well enough to not want him killed, but she's been cold blooded before).

 

Don't forget who she's (possibly!!!) a hybrid with - Lanfear, LTT's ex, insanely jealous of any female who gets near Rand. Look what happened to Avi and Egwene when she heard about Rand's liaison with Avi [tFoH 52]. She dragged Lanfear through the doorway as the other two possibilities would end with Lanfear either killing or taking Rand. She surely knows that that may still happen if Lanfear gets free, even in hybrid form; Moiraine will want to prevent it if it's at all in her power. Even at risk of endangering Thom, and Mat, and the third man.

 

The drop in power might therefore be just that the Lanfear component is using some of her Power to keep Moiraine from taking over.

 

(Right, that's straightened that out. I think I may have mentioned it in the 'Predictions' thread as well.)

[Barid Bel Medar]

OI!!!

 

That was mine! How dare you call it blasphemy!!

 

Hang on while I look for it. It's on these boards somewhere.. (goes off muttering to self)

 

 

haha, sorry, but I am finding it very difficult.

 

Thats why i want to have a look, see if its credible.

 

For all i know, you could be spot on, but it seems just another looney theory no offence intended

 

Hang on. This is playing Shayol Ghul with my posts.. I'll straighten them out in a mo.

 

I'm not saying, nor do I actually think, that Lanfear and Cyndane are two completely different people. What I'm skeptical about is the idea that Cyndane is the one-to-one, cut-and-paste successor to Lanfear. Cyndane is of Lanfear, that much seems certain, but I'm not convinced that Lanfear is entirely explained by and accounted for in the form of "Cyndane." Does that make sense?

 

People have always assumed that Lanfear was either killed or trapped in Finnland, and the Dark One or the Finns transmigrated her into a new body and gave her the name Cyndane. Badda-bing, badda-boom, off to Moridin to be mindtrapped and then off to Randland to be a good little lackey. Whether or not those events actually occurred, I think something more significant also happened to her at the hands of the Finns. I just don't know what that might be.

 

One possibility might be that the 'finns merged her with Moiraine and transmigrated the pair of them. The only reason I think this is that so far we've only seen one such merging - Slayer - and it feels like such a loose end, a story arc that doesn't seem to go anywhere in particular. But Slayer too may possibly have a connection with the ToG, Perrin having dream-followed him to where he vanished near it.

 

If so, it's going to present Mat and co with a pretty problem trying to extricate her!

 

If she knew she was going to come back as a lanfear/mo hybrid, I have my serious doubts that she'd WANT to be rescued (she'd consider herself an unstable wildcard and take herself out of play, most likely). She'd either not give Thom the hint that she's alive OR she'd go so far as to prevent a rescue. The only thing that tells me that Tower of Ghenjei rescue isn't a pre-emptive trap is that she wouldn't risk Mat (and I SUSPECT that she likes Thom well enough to not want him killed, but she's been cold blooded before).

 

Don't forget who she's (possibly!!!) a hybrid with - Lanfear, LTT's ex, insanely jealous of any female who gets near Rand. Look what happened to Avi and Egwene when she heard about Rand's liaison with Avi [tFoH 52]. She dragged Lanfear through the doorway as the other two possibilities would end with Lanfear either killing or taking Rand. She surely knows that that may still happen if Lanfear gets free, even in hybrid form; Moiraine will want to prevent it if it's at all in her power. Even at risk of endangering Thom, and Mat, and the third man.

 

The drop in power might therefore be just that the Lanfear component is using some of her Power to keep Moiraine from taking over.

 

(Right, that's straightened that out. I think I may have mentioned it in the 'Predictions' thread as well.)

 

mmm, ok.

 

Well first of all, the Finns cant transmitigate souls. RJ stated that flat out, so it would have to be the DO doing this.

 

DragonCon 3 September 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Tamyrlin: The snakes and foxes seem to have a lot of powers. Do they also have the Power? I have two questions: can they transmigrate souls? Two: can they hold the soul of an individual they have killed.

RJ: No. No to both.2

 

So it would have to be the DO, and there is no way the DO would put Moiraine and Lanfear together. 1. Lanfear is more powerful. 2. it would be hard to control the Moiraine aspect, and who would want Moiraine aspect (who is for the Light) mixed with Lanfear.

 

Also, Slayer did not enter the ToG in Perrins wolf-dream, its impossible.

 

A Crown of Swords book tour 9 October 1996, Dunwoody, GA - Erica Sadun reporting

 

 

Q: Also, what was going on in Aelfland when Mat went round and round and round the same location? Were they traveling in time?

RJ: Not traveling in time. the physical laws of nature differ. Mentioning the Dark One here is bad luck. In Aelfland, it is really bad. You can not go to Aelfland in Tel'aran'rhiod (similar to stedding).

 

So Slayer is not related to ToG in any visible way.

 

More, there would be no reason for Moiraine to write the letter, if she knew she was going to be transmitigated. Now we know she knows what is to happen in the ToG because of her letter. She has seen the "rescue" many many times. It doesnt stand to reason that she somehow gets transmitigated. She is very specific about the circumstances of the rescue. If there was a possiblilty of the transmitigation, she owuold have mentioned it in the letter.

 

Also, there is no evidence or any inkling that Moiraine is in there with Lanfear apart from the decrease in power.

 

This is a little snippet of what Brandon has to say.

 

Driving Mr. Sanderson (from Half Moon Bay to San Jose), 21 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting

Brandon: I’m not going to say never been under any shenanigans, but when you see her creating a gateway she is legitimately powerful enough to do it, which I did not believe that she was. Does that make sense? This is all digging into my read of the notes versus Maria’s read of the notes, and Maria was right. She was able to provide information to me that I had not seen which is nice because it was stuff that was very pertinent for what I am working on right now. It would have come out eventually when I would have sent her the scenes I’m working on, but it came out earlier, which is nice. Once I found out what was going on it all made perfect sense.

Matt: So, we will understand then in the next book why there is a decrease in Power but not a significant decrease?

Brandon: Yes.

Matt: Ok, so that being said there are some theories out there that in the Age of Legends, at one point, Lanfear might have…

Brandon: ...let’s just say I have not said that Lanfear and Cyndane are the same person.

 

Now this is very selective, I know, but its a very long conversation and I didnt want to post the whole thing, but you can find it https://docs.google.com/View?docID=dcjspjqg_833hc472s45&revision=_latest

 

Brandon has pretty much said that Lanfear= Cyndane, and there is no hint of Moiraine.

 

Also, we have this from RJ

 

 

The Path of Daggers book tour 14 November 1998, Louisville, KY - Matthew Hunter reporting

"Do you consider the identities of Moridin and Cyndane to be intuitively obvious?" He said yes, they should be fairly obvious by now, in many more words.

 

I dont see how we could have even guessed it was Moiraine/Lanfear hybrid.

 

 

Anyway, I am really sorry about pulling the theory apart, i dont much like doing it, after people have put alot of thought into it. But to me it seems clear that the theory is debunked.

 

I would be interested to see if there is a way around these quotes, as I know its not exactly disproven 100%

[FarShainMael]

Bear with me please BBM - I'm preparing a detailed response but I keep getting an 'unbalanced quote tag' error!

 

Trying again..

 

mmm, ok.

 

Well first of all, the Finns cant transmitigate souls. RJ stated that flat out, so it would have to be the DO doing this.

 

DragonCon 3 September 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Tamyrlin: The snakes and foxes seem to have a lot of powers. Do they also have the Power? I have two questions: can they transmigrate souls? Two: can they hold the soul of an individual they have killed.

RJ: No. No to both.2

 

No arguments there. But there is the third possibility of merging, which wasn't mentioned here.

 

So it would have to be the DO, and there is no way the DO would put Moiraine and Lanfear together. 1. Lanfear is more powerful. 2. it would be hard to control the Moiraine aspect, and who would want Moiraine aspect (who is for the Light) mixed with Lanfear.

 

If I'm right, two separate, independent things happened:

 

1) The two souls (L and M) were merged. (How?? More later.)

2) The (merged) soul was transmigrated.

 

I agree it would have had to be the DO who did the transmigration. But how did the merging happen? We don't know how it happened for Luc and Isam!

 

I think (and may have said in that earlier discussion) that L and M were merged by the Eelfinn, either deliberately or as a side effect of their unconventional entry into finnland. Later, the DO transmigrated the merged being. Possibly It didn't realise they were merged, and only perceived the Lanfear component, as that was the stronger of the two.

 

Also, Slayer did not enter the ToG in Perrins wolf-dream, its impossible.

 

A Crown of Swords book tour 9 October 1996, Dunwoody, GA - Erica Sadun reporting

 

Q: Also, what was going on in Aelfland when Mat went round and round and round the same location? Were they traveling in time?

RJ: Not traveling in time. the physical laws of nature differ. Mentioning the Dark One here is bad luck. In Aelfland, it is really bad. You can not go to Aelfland in Tel'aran'rhiod (similar to stedding).

 

So Slayer is not related to ToG in any visible way.

 

picky> RJ said Aelfland, but didn't mentioned Eelfland.

T'A'R is not the same as the Wolfdream AFAIK. Correct me if wrong.

No visible way, no. / picky>

 

Sorry about that I know about this, and I do actually think the same is true of Eelfland. But note that I said that Slayer disappeared near the ToG. I didn't say he entered it. But why lead Perrin there, if neither of them could get in? Was Slayer trying to tempt Perrin to enter, and be ensnared by the 'finns? What was going on?

 

More, there would be no reason for Moiraine to write the letter, if she knew she was going to be transmitigated. Now we know she knows what is to happen in the ToG because of her letter. She has seen the "rescue" many many times. It doesnt stand to reason that she somehow gets transmitigated. She is very specific about the circumstances of the rescue. If there was a possibility of the transmitigation, she owuold have mentioned it in the letter.

 

We don't know how much Moiraine saw/remembers of her trip through the Rhuidean rings.

 

Also, there is no evidence or any inkling that Moiraine is in there with Lanfear apart from the decrease in power.

 

That's the only evidence I have as well But recently someone reminded us of the fact that Moiraine and Siuan have a close friendship, so close that their skin tingles when the other is channelling.. so I'm looking out for an encounter between Siuan and Cyndane, when her skin starts tingling..

 

This is a little snippet of what Brandon has to say.

 

Driving Mr. Sanderson (from Half Moon Bay to San Jose), 21 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting

Brandon: I’m not going to say never been under any shenanigans, but when you see her creating a gateway she is legitimately powerful enough to do it, which I did not believe that she was. Does that make sense? This is all digging into my read of the notes versus Maria’s read of the notes, and Maria was right. She was able to provide information to me that I had not seen which is nice because it was stuff that was very pertinent for what I am working on right now. It would have come out eventually when I would have sent her the scenes I’m working on, but it came out earlier, which is nice. Once I found out what was going on it all made perfect sense.

Matt: So, we will understand then in the next book why there is a decrease in Power but not a significant decrease?

Brandon: Yes.

Matt: Ok, so that being said there are some theories out there that in the Age of Legends, at one point, Lanfear might have…

Brandon: ...let’s just say I have not said that Lanfear and Cyndane are the same person.

 

Now this is very selective, I know, but its a very long conversation and I didnt want to post the whole thing, but you can find it https://docs.google.com/View?docID=dcjspjqg_833hc472s45&revision=_latest

 

Thanks, I'll have a detailed look.

 

Brandon has pretty much said that Lanfear= Cyndane, and there is no hint of Moiraine.

 

Except that he has 'not said that Lanfear and Cyndane are the same person'. That was very specific!

 

Also, we have this from RJ

 

The Path of Daggers book tour 14 November 1998, Louisville, KY - Matthew Hunter reporting

"Do you consider the identities of Moridin and Cyndane to be intuitively obvious?" He said yes, they should be fairly obvious by now, in many more words.

 

I dont see how we could have even guessed it was Moiraine/Lanfear hybrid.

 

Well, I guessed.. Srsly, there are pointers as I've said, though - as with all these things - they could point in any of half a dozen different directions.

 

Anyway, I am really sorry about pulling the theory apart, i dont much like doing it, after people have put alot of thought into it. But to me it seems clear that the theory is debunked.

 

I would be interested to see if there is a way around these quotes, as I know its not exactly disproven 100%

 

Since you were so nice about it, I'll forgive you!

[Barid Bel Medar]

Bear with me please BBM - I'm preparing a detailed response but I keep getting an 'unbalanced quote tag' error!

 

gahhhh, thats annoying when that happens.

 

And of course, I am genuinely interested in this theory. Ill be here when your done

[FarShainMael]

See above!

[Barid Bel Medar]

See above!

 

There is a lot of nitpicking of phrasing and such, not alot of actual evidence.

 

I will have to admit that your reply got around the quotes, so it isnt disproven in my mind.

 

I still believe it is wrong, but I am open to the idea, and if it turns out to be true, well i guess i will have to hail you as a genius.

 

I commend your effort in thinking up this theory. Its very interesting, well done !

 

Ill say no more to try and disprove it, there is no point really, we shall soon find out, only a month and a bit to go!!!!!

 

Whooo!!!

 

[FarShainMael]

*bows*

[Barid Bel Medar]

*bows*

 

haha, not a genius yet

 

[Luckers]

How do we know Cyndane isn't Moiraine + Lanfear? Because RJ stated souls cannot be split, and some part of Moiraine is within the Tower of Ghenjei, and if some part of her is, then all of her is. Same goes for Lanfear in reverse--some part of her is in Cyndane, therefore all of her is.

[Barid Bel Medar]

How do we know Cyndane isn't Moiraine + Lanfear? Because RJ stated souls cannot be split, and some part of Moiraine is within the Tower of Ghenjei, and if some part of her is, then all of her is. Same goes for Lanfear in reverse--some part of her is in Cyndane, therefore all of her is.

 

I tend to agree.

 

But i think FSM was saying that she is not in the ToG at all.

 

That, i still think is impossible, but i dont think theres any way to actually disprove it conclusively, so the point is moot really.

[Sharaman]

Isn't the Lanfear died, was transmigrated, healed by a woman, turned into Cyndane theory more probable than the Lanfear+Moiraine bizness?

After all, we do know that a women channeler healed by a woman is weaker, we do know GLoD can transmigrate dead souls, we do know that a stilled channeler who was transmigrated would need to be healed to regain channeling ability, and we do know that Cyndane reappeared before any man knew how to heal stilling.

We also know that several BA women (eg Dagdara) had access to the healing technique Nyn discovered.

Why do you need this complicated dual boot theory if a simpler explanation that covers all the known details about Cyndane exists?

[FarShainMael]

*bows*

 

haha, not a genius yet

 

 

We shall see................. (only jk!)

[FarShainMael]

How do we know Cyndane isn't Moiraine + Lanfear? Because RJ stated souls cannot be split, and some part of Moiraine is within the Tower of Ghenjei, and if some part of her is, then all of her is. Same goes for Lanfear in reverse--some part of her is in Cyndane, therefore all of her is.

 

I tend to agree.

 

But i think FSM was saying that she is not in the ToG at all.

 

Exactly so.

 

The rescue trip to the ToG is still necessary. Moiraine may not recall everything she saw in the RoR, so she may not know exactly what will happen to her there; she does know enough to know that a 3-man rescue trip is still needed. What the rescue will actually consist of is less clear. Eg's dream of 'Mat throwing dice with blood streaming down his face, the wide brim of his hat pulled low so she could not see his wound, while Thom Merrilin put his hand into a fire to draw out the small blue stone that now dangled on Moiraine's forehead' may indicate that what they are retrieving is vital info of some kind, such as how to get Mo un-merged.

 

@Sharaman: because of the doubts expressed by some of the Forsaken about Cyndane's identity. That's a bit pointed, IMO. (I do know the FS don't know about healing stilling, but even so.)

[Sharaman]

@FSM - they're reacting to the fact that Cyndi is weaker than Lanfear was, and that she defers to Moridin, which is uncharacteristic of our lady of the night. But the Forsaken who are reacting that way don't know about the mechanics of woman-woman healing, or about the cour'savra being used (sounds like bad wine frankly). We do, and taken together, those two bits of knowledge provide sufficient explanation.

[FarShainMael]

@FSM - they're reacting to the fact that Cyndi is weaker than Lanfear was, and that she defers to Moridin, which is uncharacteristic of our lady of the night. But the Forsaken who are reacting that way don't know about the mechanics of woman-woman healing, or about the cour'savra being used (sounds like bad wine frankly). We do, and taken together, those two bits of knowledge provide sufficient explanation.

 

They may not know a cour'souvra is being used, but do they know the things exist?

 

Also, when something like this is mentioned, it usually has a significance. What would be the significance to the FS of rehealing stilling? Verin tells us the FS are fundamentally selfish. If one of their number is stilled, would they bother to heal? Wouldn't they just say, haha, serves you right, the more power/wealth/glory for me then?

[Silver]

I have a theory that doesn't have much basis except for 1 line and conjecture. It's also way out there at a FSM level of crazy theories.

 

[Alivia] was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible. No woman could be stronger.

[WH: 35 – With the Choedan Kal – 649]

 

She states this with so much belief in the fact that I find it very odd. If her abnormal strength was natural, why why was she so surprised that somebody could be as strong/stronger? But what if her strength was abnormal? Then her disbelief could have a basis.

 

If her strength was modified to be so great it was impossibly to have naturally, she would be surprised at somebody being as strong\stronger. Then when she died, whatever enhancement she had wasn't transmigrated along with her soul to a new body.

[Kaznen]

It is kinda a cliche in fantasy that the "Wizard Adviser" dies so the hero will have to go on alone. But also cliche is the "Wizard Adviser" comes back in a way that makes them more powerful then before.

 

An example: "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine." He was struck down, and he did become more powerful.

 

It happens in LotR, Star Wars, Belgariad, even in Harry Potter.

 

First, What I think Mo's three "wishes" where.

1. "I want Lanfear's strength in the OP"

2. "I want Lanfear's knowledge of the OP"

3. "I want to live."

 

Now I'm going to through out a major wild card here. Balefire, Mo has learned BF is the only sure way of dealing with a Forsaken face to face. While she is really strong for an modern AS she doesn't have the juice to stand toe to toe with one of the forsaken (look what happened in tEotW). She knows the only way she can survive a full frontal assault against a forsaken, and Lanfear was known to be the strongest female, is to bring out BF.

 

Well, when one of the forsaken gets a blast of BF directed towards them they respond in kind. Maybe they "crossed streams" and we know things get...weird...when that happens. Maybe the finn's didn't transmigrate souls but going on the stupid bodyswap theory between Rand and Mordin and what RJ said about the finns when Tor had the "Question of the Week" the finns could have shown Mo how to do it. Or it could be because of her trip in the rings she knew how, even if it was instinct like Avi had at the beginnings of CoT concerning the cleansing.

 

The thing is, the way Cyndane's appearance is described could be used to describe Mo. And that is what bothers me. How could team dark get a hold of Mo. And going back to what I believe was Mo's first request how could the finns supercharge Mo in her own body?

[Sharaman]

@FSM - they're reacting to the fact that Cyndi is weaker than Lanfear was, and that she defers to Moridin, which is uncharacteristic of our lady of the night. But the Forsaken who are reacting that way don't know about the mechanics of woman-woman healing, or about the cour'savra being used (sounds like bad wine frankly). We do, and taken together, those two bits of knowledge provide sufficient explanation.

 

They may not know a cour'souvra is being used, but do they know the things exist?

 

Also, when something like this is mentioned, it usually has a significance. What would be the significance to the FS of rehealing stilling? Verin tells us the FS are fundamentally selfish. If one of their number is stilled, would they bother to heal? Wouldn't they just say, haha, serves you right, the more power/wealth/glory for me then?

 

Yes, they must all know about mind-trapping - Moggy thinks she's done it more than once. But it may not occur to them that a Forsaken would be mind-trapped. Why would GLoD want to mind-trap somebody already sworn to him? It's a new tactic / punishment.

 

The healing wasn't done by a FS most probably - it happened before Moggy's escape (since Moridin already had Cyndi's mind-trap and only an active channeller can be mind-trapped) and Moggy escaped at a time when only a few Salidar AS (including some BA) would have known the weaves. But if the FS knew the weaves and were ordered to do the healing by Moridin or Shaidar they would surely do so. Reluctantly perhaps, but they wouldn't dare refuse.

[yoniy0]

It happens in [... the] Belgariad

What? When?

 

only an active channeller can be mind-trapped

You don't know that. A Severed channeler might be susceptible to that.

[Sharaman]

It happens in [... the] Belgariad

What? When?

 

only an active channeller can be mind-trapped

You don't know that. A Severed channeler might be susceptible to that.

 

as it straightened with her blood and saliva' date=' she knew, even before it produced what

appeared to be a tiny, fragile cage of gold wire and crystal. Some things could only be done here, some only to

[b']those who could channel[/b], and she had brought a number of men and women for this very purpose

 

It's "could" - not "used to be able to".

[yoniy0]

But 'could' isn't 'can' either. I disagree with your interpretation, though you might of course be right. Regardless, you have no proof, only your opinion.