What is Ishamael?

[Skeeve the Great]

RJ said that teh CoL and Dragon are not the same thing.

 

I don't know what you are referring to. I thought I read all RJ's comments and Q&As. Never heard of this one.

 

This then means, the Dragon was only a title used to describe LTT and, since the world only knew the last CoL as the Dragon, called him the Dragon Reborn.

 

I think you are wrong. Because Arthur Hawkwing clearly states "We follow the Banner. And the Dragon". Two separate things they follow and the one of the thing is called "Dragon".

 

[Barid Bel Medar]

RJ said that teh CoL and Dragon are not the same thing.

 

I don't know what you are referring to. I thought I read all RJ's comments and Q&As. Never heard of this one.

 

This then means, the Dragon was only a title used to describe LTT and, since the world only knew the last CoL as the Dragon, called him the Dragon Reborn.

 

I think you are wrong. Because Arthur Hawkwing clearly states "We follow the Banner. And the Dragon". Two separate things they follow and the one of the thing is called "Dragon".

 

 

I think I rather trust the Moderators on this board in the Quotes department over you, perhaps try searching more.

 

As for the other, of course Hawkwing would say that, Rand wouldnt know what he was talking about if he said "the CoL" banner.

 

The Banner is indeed a Dragon, and what you say is correct, they follow the Dragon banner. Not the Dragon as a person. Remember he said also that they had oppposed each other as well as fought together, so the Dragon as a person is false, or else Hawkwing would be following Rand's soul, which is not the case.

 

The Dragon is the thing on the Banner, yes. But the Dragon Reborn and the Dragon as LTT is a name they gave to him.

 

Just like jesus example, it is the name they called him in that particular age, and the prophecies remember only that name.

 

So, the point is, that while the CoL soul may have been called "the Dragon" at one point or another, he was not always "the Dragon" throughout every single age. It is only a title, used by the AoL people, and possibly others.

 

 

Edit: Gah, I realised that you may consider this rude, sorry it was not intentional ;D

[Skeeve the Great]

The Banner is indeed a Dragon, and what you say is correct, they follow the Dragon banner. Not the Dragon as a person.

 

You are wrong, because the Hawkwing separated the two: the Banner and the Dragon. I provided the full quote from the book above.

 

Remember he said also that they had oppposed each other as well as fought together, so the Dragon as a person is false, or else Hawkwing would be following Rand's soul, which is not the case.

 

The way I understand the quote is not that the Hawkwing the Hero fought the Dragon at some Age. Because the Pattern spans the Heroes, I understood it as "Some Incarnation of Hawkwing" fought "Some Incarnation of Dragon" in some of the Ages, and since after they die they recover their true identity in TAR, they recognize which one they actually fought. For example, we know for sure that the Shadow never turned the Dragon to their side. There was a quote from RJ about it, something about paradox or limbo or such. But it doesn't mean they never turned Hawkwing to their side at some of the Ages. Also, from RJ, we know that Pattern spans the Dragon soul in non-Dragon mode in some Ages, where the Dragon is not needed. In such cases, I don't see why spanned Hawkwing and spanned Dragon in non-Dragon mode would not fight each other, they may well be neighboors lords which were constantly fighting for the control of some stupid land. :)

 

 

PS: And about CoL thing. I still can't find RI's quote about it.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Knife of Dreams book tour 24 October 2005 - Tim Kington reporting

 

Q: When Rand hears Lews Therin, is this happening across time, or are they both in the present?

A: They're both in the present.

 

Q: Were the Dragon Banner and the Horn of Valere made at the same time?

A: No.

Q: Then why did Hawkwing need Rand to produce the banner at Falme before he could attack?

A: Legends change.

 

The Path of Daggers book tour 22 October 1998, Los Angeles - Pam Basham reporting

Q: "Is [the Dragon] soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?"

RJ: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills.  "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.  In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme--because Hawkwing recognizes this soul.  This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "Lews Therin", but apparently they've been hangin' together in Tel'aran'rhiod and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation.

 

While I couldnt find out that excat quote (I will keep looking)  I think the second quote clears the issue up somewhat.

 

The title of "Dragon" is only one title, not the actual soul

[Skeeve the Great]

Knife of Dreams book tour 24 October 2005 - Tim Kington reporting

 

Q: When Rand hears Lews Therin, is this happening across time, or are they both in the present?

A: They're both in the present.

 

Q: Were the Dragon Banner and the Horn of Valere made at the same time?

A: No.

Q: Then why did Hawkwing need Rand to produce the banner at Falme before he could attack?

A: Legends change.

 

The Path of Daggers book tour 22 October 1998, Los Angeles - Pam Basham reporting

Q: "Is [the Dragon] soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?"

RJ: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills.  "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.  In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme--because Hawkwing recognizes this soul.  This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "Lews Therin", but apparently they've been hangin' together in Tel'aran'rhiod and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation.

 

While I couldnt find out that excat quote (I will keep looking)  I think the second quote clears the issue up somewhat.

 

The title of "Dragon" is only one title, not the actual soul

 

I know of these quotes. And none of them support the idea the CoL is not the Dragon.

The second quote does not actually re-affirms my idea that the Dragon is not invention of the Age of Legends. He called Rand LTT because it was the last incarnation of the Dragon. And the Dragon soul is span out in non-Dragon mode. But it's the same soul - the Dragon.

[OptimusPrime]

If Hawkwing says they follow the Dragon, and has been summoned against the Dragon, clearly there is a crossover in our interpretations. TGH shows the Heroes synchtronize with Rands actions. What would happen if the Heroes fought Rand? I think that synchronization is linked to the CoLs will, and wouldnt have worked the way it should if the Horn was blown in TGS just like Rands Ta'verenism wasnt right.

 

Hawkwing was saying he follows the Creators will. This is present in Rand, who affects the Pattern with his frame of mind and has access to past life memories to remind him what that frame of mind should be; save the Pattern. However, the CoL, even with Dragon status active (that being a maxed out Ta'veren, access to past life memories, Pattern-bending will, born with a maxed out spark) is just a man, and while his soul always has an irn will, it can still be beaten down, his humanity is his only weakness. If the Dragon turns Dark, what on earth can stand in his way?

 

I propose that the Horn was made to summon the Heroes specificaly for times when the CoL has Dragon status active. Their role? Preserve the Pattern of course. Their method? Assist the CoL, or stop him.

[Fains nose]

The exact nature of Rand/Dragon/CoL, and his soul is something the author should tell us so we know who/what were reading about;if someone emails Brandon Sanderson and asks him 'what is Rand' or a more detailed question, he should tell, it wouldnt be a RAFO

[Barid Bel Medar]

Well, despite my earlier posts, I am no longer sure of the nature of the Dragon/ CoL. The quote that this was based on, i have not found, although i tend to believe the sources that mentioned this quote, since I cannot find it myself, I cant really put any real faith in it until it is found or proven otherwise.

 

Skeeve the Great:

For example, we know for sure that the Shadow never turned the Dragon to their side.

 

tarvalon.net Q&A 26 February 2003

Q: Was Ishamael lying when he told Rand that the hero of the Light had turned to Shadow in other lifetimes?

 

RJ: No, he was not. Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes.

 

As for the HotH, i think a few quotes might shed some light.

 

Brisbane 20 September 1999 - Joel Gilmore reporting

 

 

I re-asked the question about the Shadow controlling one of the Horn or the banner, and he said that the Heroes would have to follow the

Horn

 

Q: Hawkwing says they follow the banner and the Dragon.  Moiraine says the Heroes will follow whoever winds the Horn.  Was Moiraine wrong?

RJ: Moiraine doesn't know everything.  She was speaking the truth as she knows it. However, she is correct in that whoever sounds the Horn "controls the Heroes."

Q: "Then what happens if the Dragon and the banner are on opposite sides of the conflict from whoever sounds the Horn?"

RJ:  "Then we get a [rift] in the Pattern."

 

My interpretation of this is that such a thing would never happen, because the pattern would not allow it. But it is still up for debate

[OptimusPrime]

Well, despite my earlier posts, I am no longer sure of the nature of the Dragon/ CoL. The quote that this was based on, i have not found, although i tend to believe the sources that mentioned this quote, since I cannot find it myself, I cant really put any real faith in it until it is found or proven otherwise.

 

Skeeve the Great:

For example, we know for sure that the Shadow never turned the Dragon to their side.

 

tarvalon.net Q&A 26 February 2003

Q: Was Ishamael lying when he told Rand that the hero of the Light had turned to Shadow in other lifetimes?

 

RJ: No, he was not. Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes.

 

As for the HotH, i think a few quotes might shed some light.

 

Brisbane 20 September 1999 - Joel Gilmore reporting

 

 

I re-asked the question about the Shadow controlling one of the Horn or the banner, and he said that the Heroes would have to follow the

Horn

 

Q: Hawkwing says they follow the banner and the Dragon.  Moiraine says the Heroes will follow whoever winds the Horn.  Was Moiraine wrong?

RJ: Moiraine doesn't know everything.  She was speaking the truth as she knows it. However, she is correct in that whoever sounds the Horn "controls the Heroes."

Q: "Then what happens if the Dragon and the banner are on opposite sides of the conflict from whoever sounds the Horn?"

RJ:  "Then we get a [rift] in the Pattern."

 

My interpretation of this is that such a thing would never happen, because the pattern would not allow it. But it is still up for debate

 

Its the same as the CoL being turned Dark. If it happens against his will, he will be dark but will lack the necessary Ishamael frame of mind. The only way for the Light to lose is if the CoL actually wants the Dark One to break free. But the fact that Rand has access to so many past life memories means his emotions and whatnot have experienced far, far more than this lifetime, thus I think Rands frame of mind in VoG went from "My existence is the worst thing ever and I want it to end" to "Oh man, these last two years have been the worst fraction of an eyeblinking Ive ever gone through." The events of TGS, in a sense, will feel like they happen a long time ago to Rand.

 

Its the sort of thing that is possible, but might happen once in a million turnings. Which I think means Rands Ta'veren chance twisting would have made that rift between the Dragon and the Heroes a certainty had the Horn been blown in TGS, due to his Taverenism being only negative at the time.