Merhan, Teramina and Jamilila Norsish.

[Luckers]

Ok, colour me confused here. Mehan, Teramina and Jamilila are the three Aes Sedai Egwene identifies as potential candidates for Mesaana-hood, as all three disapeared before the reswearing, were not in Verin's list, but were on Saerin consensus, and thus had not been taken by the Seanchan. Egwene thinks its unlikely they were Mesaana because all three had been in the Tower for years, and she'd doubted Mesaana would be able to fake them so well. Brandon implies she is right in this deduction.

 

2. Question: Is Mesaana still in the Tower?

 

2. Answer: Egwene makes some deductions about this at the end of the book.  Egwene is not incorrect.

 

[tGS Signing Tour; Q&A]

 

So, the bit that I'm confused about is this. Egwene decides that, Evaneillin, who was also not on Verin's list, escaped the Seanchan and disapeared before the re-swearing, was most probably Black--yet never considers her as a potential Mesaana. Inversely, Egwene for some reason never considers that Merhan, Teramina and Jailila were Blacks that Verin missed, and fled for the same reason as Evaneillin.

 

Why? All three are stated to be very weak in the Power, so was that it? Simply that they were too weak to Travel, and weren't on Verin's list, but disapeared anyway? That seems incredibly poor logic on Egwene's part. The vast majority of the Black in the Tower escaped. It's highly unlikely they were all strong enough to Travel--and besides, communication between Black sisters was obviously necessary for them all to escape, so what is to forestall the weak ones simply going with those strong enough to Travel? Or from linking. For that matter what is to have stopped them disapearing in a more normal manner. There were no guards on watch within the Tower, as with the Rebels.

 

Besides, where is the logic in dismissing Evaneillin's absense just because she is strong enough to Travel? (assuming she is. We do not know).

 

So yes, my question is twofold.

 

1. Why did Egwene differentiate between the absense of Merhan, Teramina and Jamilila and the absense of Evaneillin?

 

2. If there was some oddity to explain the differntiation, then Mehan Teramina and Jailila were not Black, and not Mesaana--so where did they go?

[yoniy0]

I've reread the epilogue, and I have no clue.

I do think that Brandon's referring to Egwene's premonition/fear that Mesaana is still hiding in the Tower, and not specifically to any name she mentions.

[Luckers]

I've reread the epilogue, and I have no clue.

I do think that Brandon's referring to Egwene's premonition/fear that Mesaana is still hiding in the Tower, and not specifically to any name she mentions.

 

And why does Egwene list those three names as potential Mesaana's? Because they aren't in the Tower. Ergo, the implication of his comments is that Egwene is correct to dismiss them.

[bubbified]

I was just thinking that the shadow is mostly wasting greymen as assassins, that they should be used as spies instead.  Well what if that IS what they are mostly used for?  That would explain how the BA got tipped off and how they all started escaping.  Also, compulsed AS would explain the tip off. (act normal, but report anything about...)  Anyway, I'm sure mesana will be one of those, or someone not mentioned.

[JenniferL]

I don't think it's likely to be any of those three. Jordan said in a signing interview that Mesaana's alter ego was someone we'd seen onstage as of CoT. None of those three have ever made an appearance. I think Egwene is correct in assuming that Mesaana is still in the Tower, but incorrect in assuming that it's one of these three sisters. It's far more likely that they were captured by Seanchan, but without witnesses, and Brandon only included them as a red herring.

 

The strongest evidence still points at Danelle, but it's not conclusive.

[Luckers]

I don't think it's likely to be any of those three. Jordan said in a signing interview that Mesaana's alter ego was someone we'd seen onstage as of CoT. None of those three have ever made an appearance. I think Egwene is correct in assuming that Mesaana is still in the Tower, but incorrect in assuming that it's one of these three sisters. It's far more likely that they were captured by Seanchan, but without witnesses, and Brandon only included them as a red herring.

 

The strongest evidence still points at Danelle, but it's not conclusive.

 

Yeah, no I agree Kath--and Brandon's comment ruled them out also--the point is, why did Egwene differentiate these three in the first place, and yet ignore Evaneillin? All four survived the attack and were recorded on Saerin's census, all four were not on Verin's list, and all four disapeared before the Cleansing of the Black Ajah--yet Egwene dismisses Evaneillin as a Black Sister Verin missed, never considering her for Mesaana, and inversely considers and dismisses Merhan, Teramina and Jamilila as Mesaana, but never considers them for Black Ajah Verin missed.

 

So yes, they aren't Mesaana, but why were they special? And if Egwene did have a reason to consider them outside the Black sisters that fled--then why did they flee, and where did they go?

[Charlz Fel]

Presumably, someone made a mistake--either Egwene, Silviana, or Sanderson (and editors).

 

A question here: Does the same reasoning allow us to dismiss Evaneillin?  (I.e., had she also been in the Tower for years?)

[bubbified]

If it's a mistake, they'll either fix it and tell us, or just fix it, or do what the pattern does, write it in and keep on spinnin.

[Fains nose]

Does this mean Evainnelen is Mesaana

[Luckers]

It's highly unlikely. Evanellein was a Sitter for the Gray pre-schism, which means she'd likely been in the Tower for years. She was also calling quite vocally for Elaida to be deposed, which doesn't fit Mesaana.

[algspkr]

Can you post the quote on Evaneillin please.

[Luckers]

The majority of them—some sixty Black sisters—had escaped. Including one Sitter, as Egwene had noticed before, whose name had not been on Verin's list. Evanellein's disappearance indicated strongly that she was Black.

[supergirlfriday]

So yes, my question is twofold.

 

1. Why did Egwene differentiate between the absense of Merhan, Teramina and Jamilila and the absense of Evaneillin?

 

2. If there was some oddity to explain the differntiation, then Mehan Teramina and Jailila were not Black, and not Mesaana--so where did they go?

 

In my copy of tGS, it's Nalasia Merhan, btw :)

 

1. Evanellein was a Sitter, and obviously stronger in the power than the other three. So she would have differentiated their disappearances because they had different implications for the Tower. A Sitter disappearing could have been about Ajah business (I'm not saying the other three weren't, but you get my drift) and not only does it look suspicious, it might be a problem to have her voluntarily missing from the Tower, thus gone from the Hall. The other three being weaker in the power were also, to Egwene, less likely to be a Forsaken. I will say that I believe that Mesaana is using the 'trick' of supressing her strength in the Power, though.

 

2. They ducked out for a coffee and haven't been seen since  :P

 

I'm sure there's logic to all this, but I can't find it yet.

 

Oh, and one more thing: I'm with yoniy0 in that we might be assuming that Brandon's referring to Egwene's deduction about the sisters, and not a) her fear that Mesaana's still in the Tower, or, what I think is more likely, b):

 

If so, she somehow knew how to defeat the Oath Rod.

[bubbified]

Maybe being a forsaken is not a darkfriend in her mind?  They do see themselves as different than and above "ishmaels darkfriends".

 

Hmm, an easy way to defeat it would be to compel another sister, while compelled teach her the weave for compelling, tell her to compel Mesena before the oath rod test, give her a list of instructions to do during and after the compelling, then tell her to forget these instructions until then.  Then tell her to forget all the instructions except that she should return to Mesanas quarters when she can.

 

<start list of tasks for AS to give mesana>

1. Compel mesena

2. Tell mesena to forget she is a darkfriend, BA, or mesana

3. Remember only that she is instead who she is pretending to be

4. Take any oaths they ask of her

5. Return to her quarters when allowed to go free

6. Remember all that she had forgotten

<end list>

 

After those tasks, mesana can deal with the AS how she wishes.

 

Mesana considers herself suited for research, it should be easy for her to set up a test to find the right AS who can do those things, and then to try it in mock style a few times.  I think she had plenty of time seeing as the rest of the BA had time to decide what they were gonna do.

[Luckers]

1. Evanellein was a Sitter, and obviously stronger in the power than the other three. So she would have differentiated their disappearances because they had different implications for the Tower. A Sitter disappearing could have been about Ajah business (I'm not saying the other three weren't, but you get my drift) and not only does it look suspicious, it might be a problem to have her voluntarily missing from the Tower, thus gone from the Hall. The other three being weaker in the power were also, to Egwene, less likely to be a Forsaken. I will say that I believe that Mesaana is using the 'trick' of supressing her strength in the Power, though.

 

The problem is, that doesn't make sense. Egwene doesn't dismiss Evanellein as a candidate because she is a Sitter or anything else--she simply concludes that Evanellein's absense most likely means she is Black Ajah, and never considers her as Mesaana. The three she does consider have the same crime to their name--disapearing before the re-swearing--yet she never considers they might be black, and thinks only of them as candidates for Mesaana--even if she then dismisses them.

 

Additionally we don't know Evanellein was strong in the power. Sitters don't need strength to attain their position. I don't doubt it would help, but there'd assuredly be weak Sitters out there.

 

And I don't think Egwene thought about their strength as a deterent anyway. Even if Mesaana replaced someone only a step below Romanda, Elaida and Lelaine, she'd still be weakening herself considerable.

 

Oh, and one more thing: I'm with yoniy0 in that we might be assuming that Brandon's referring to Egwene's deduction about the sisters, and not a) her fear that Mesaana's still in the Tower, or, what I think is more likely, b):

 

Her deduction was based on those sisters, so it intrinsically includes them. She thinks that each had spent to long in the Tower, and was too well known, for Mesaana to easily replace, and that since they were the only candidates Mesaana was likely still in the Tower.

 

Brandon said it was this deduction that she was 'not incorrect' about. Which means both that Mesaana is still in the Tower, and the Nalasia Merhan, Teramina and Jamilila Norsish are not Mesaana.

 

And Egwene makes no deductions about Mesaana defeating the Oath Rod, she simply questions it. Obviously is she's still in the Tower she found some way around them, but I doubt she simply defeated it. The Oath Rod was used as a legal tool in the Age of Legends--which I doubt it would have been were there a simple way to break the binding of the Rod, or its power to bind. It's possible, of course, that the Age of Legend Aes Sedai knew this method, and had an easy way of guarding against it--still, I consider it unlikely.

 

Maybe being a forsaken is not a darkfriend in her mind?  They do see themselves as different than and above "ishmaels darkfriends".

 

Hmm, an easy way to defeat it would be to compel another sister, while compelled teach her the weave for compelling, tell her to compel Mesena before the oath rod test, give her a list of instructions to do during and after the compelling, then tell her to forget these instructions until then.  Then tell her to forget all the instructions except that she should return to Mesanas quarters when she can.

 

<start list of tasks for AS to give mesana>

1. Compel mesena

2. Tell mesena to forget she is a darkfriend, BA, or mesana

3. Remember only that she is instead who she is pretending to be

4. Take any oaths they ask of her

5. Return to her quarters when allowed to go free

6. Remember all that she had forgotten

<end list>

 

After those tasks, mesana can deal with the AS how she wishes.

 

Mesana considers herself suited for research, it should be easy for her to set up a test to find the right AS who can do those things, and then to try it in mock style a few times.  I think she had plenty of time seeing as the rest of the BA had time to decide what they were gonna do.

 

There is a thread already in existence for the discussion of this. Let's keep it there, thanks.

[supergirlfriday]

If you were a woman, Luckers, you'd be the First Reasoner! lol I <i>did</i> say that I couldn't find logic in it - but you did.

 

So where does that logic take us? Evanellein is Mesaana? But she can't be because Egwene deduced her out of it.

 

Is there a right answer short of RAFO?

[Luckers]

Yeah, most people don't like the White, but I do--notice in particular that Alviarin and Ishamael were both White-types. :D

 

So where does that logic take us? Evanellein is Mesaana? But she can't be because Egwene deduced her out of it.

 

She's not Mesaana. I don't really know where the logic leads. Maybe its a mistake? Or maybe there is some reason to single those three out that got left out of the books.

 

 

[Charlz Guybon]

I don't think it's likely to be any of those three. Jordan said in a signing interview that Mesaana's alter ego was someone we'd seen onstage as of CoT. None of those three have ever made an appearance. I think Egwene is correct in assuming that Mesaana is still in the Tower, but incorrect in assuming that it's one of these three sisters. It's far more likely that they were captured by Seanchan, but without witnesses, and Brandon only included them as a red herring.

 

The strongest evidence still points at Danelle, but it's not conclusive.

 

Yeah, no I agree Kath--and Brandon's comment ruled them out also--the point is, why did Egwene differentiate these three in the first place, and yet ignore Evaneillin? All four survived the attack and were recorded on Saerin's census, all four were not on Verin's list, and all four disapeared before the Cleansing of the Black Ajah--yet Egwene dismisses Evaneillin as a Black Sister Verin missed, never considering her for Mesaana, and inversely considers and dismisses Merhan, Teramina and Jamilila as Mesaana, but never considers them for Black Ajah Verin missed.

 

So yes, they aren't Mesaana, but why were they special? And if Egwene did have a reason to consider them outside the Black sisters that fled--then why did they flee, and where did they go?

Evaneillin is just too high profile as sitter to be Mesaana. People would have noticed a change in personality and behavior, so Egwene dismissed the possibility out of hand. The other three are not as well known, so Egwene considers it, but decides that they are know enough that it isn't possible.  

[Charlz Guybon]

 

 

Additionally we don't know Evanellein was strong in the power. Sitters don't need strength to attain their position. I don't doubt it would help, but there'd assuredly be weak Sitters out there.

Pretty sure that every sitter so far has at least been above average for an Aes Sedai in strength (i.e. can travel, level 8 ). Given their stupid hierarchy it'd be impossible for even a brilliant sister to gain the political influence necessary to be elected sitter if they were handicapped by weak strength. This is how power hungry morons like Elaida and Lelaine get into positions of authority.

 

[algspkr]

The majority of them—some sixty Black sisters—had escaped. Including one Sitter, as Egwene had noticed before, whose name had not been on Verin's list. Evanellein's disappearance indicated strongly that she was Black.

 

Thanks for the quote.

 

Based off of this I would guess that Egwene just did not think that Mesaana could pull off a sitter impersonation.

 

 

[yoniy0]

She was also calling quite vocally for Elaida to be deposed, which doesn't fit Mesaana.

Hold your horses there, Luckers. Remember Delana used to vocal controversial opinions quite frequently, on the instructions of Aran'gar. It increases the chaos, which is presumably the point. Still, I agree that she isn't Mesaana.

 

Her deduction was based on those sisters, so it intrinsically includes them. She thinks that each had spent to long in the Tower, and was too well known, for Mesaana to easily replace, and that since they were the only candidates Mesaana was likely still in the Tower.

[...]

And Egwene makes no deductions about Mesaana defeating the Oath Rod, she simply questions it.

Again, I think you're missing something. Egwene reviews the list of possible Mesaanas, decides none of them is very likely, and infers that Mesaana might be hiding in the Tower, having found a way around Egwene's Oath-Rod-test. This process can certainly be described as deduction - don't you agree? This could be what Brandon was referring to, and if so, the specifics of the names Egwene has first considered need not be relevant (though, trivially, they cannot be Mesaana if Egwene's logic to be trusted).

[Luckers]

Quote from: Luckers on July 05, 2010, 09:52:28 PM

Her deduction was based on those sisters, so it intrinsically includes them. She thinks that each had spent to long in the Tower, and was too well known, for Mesaana to easily replace, and that since they were the only candidates Mesaana was likely still in the Tower.

[...]

And Egwene makes no deductions about Mesaana defeating the Oath Rod, she simply questions it.

 

Again, I think you're missing something. Egwene reviews the list of possible Mesaanas, decides none of them is very likely, and infers that Mesaana might be hiding in the Tower, having found a way around Egwene's Oath-Rod-test. This process can certainly be described as deduction - don't you agree? This could be what Brandon was referring to, and if so, the specifics of the names Egwene has first considered need not be relevant (though, trivially, they cannot be Mesaana if Egwene's logic to be trusted).

 

I'm not missing any of that. The process of deduction includes both, therefore Brandon's comments serves to state both that Mesaana is still in the Tower, and that she is NOT Merhan, Teramina or Jamalil. They are relevant in that they are locked in as being excluded as Mesaana candidates.

 

Hold your horses there, Luckers. Remember Delana used to vocal controversial opinions quite frequently, on the instructions of Aran'gar. It increases the chaos, which is presumably the point. Still, I agree that she isn't Mesaana.

 

Yes, but it was to serve a purpose. Given the disasters at hand Evanellein's shrieking for Elaida's head could well have succeeded. At the very least it was not a logical position for Mesaana to take, and it directly contradicts Mesaana's own statements about what she is trying to achieve from KoD; 3, At The Gardens.

 

In effect the only chaos it could have caused is precisely the type of chaos Mesaana wanted to avoid. Therefore it makes no sense for Mesaana to do it one way or the other.

[bubbified]

Luckers, first off, I didn't see that thread anywhere else, but I didn't look anywhere else besides a couple pages of topics, but still there are alot of pages of topics, many of which have been repeated.

 

 

If it bugs you so much, you should rethink your logic on this one luckers

Presumably, someone made a mistake--either Egwene, Silviana, or Sanderson (and editors).

 

A question here: Does the same reasoning allow us to dismiss Evaneillin?  (I.e., had she also been in the Tower for years?)

 

It should say "Presumably, someone made a mistake--either Egwene, Silviana, Sanderson, bubbified, or Luckers"

 

No one has posted all the references to all 4 people, and all thoughts egwene has had on all 4. Does anyone have all the references?  Of the series, I've read all but the last like 20 times, so I don't have it memorized and don't have time to dig for every mention of them all. Here's the part about Evanellein, then the other 3

 

 

 

She smiled faintly, scanning the next of Silviana's reports. Then she frowned. Most of the Black Ajah in the Tower had escaped. This report, written in Silviana's careful, flowing script, told that they had managed to seize some of the Blacks in the hours following Egwene's raising, but only the weakest of the lot.  The majority of them--some sixty Black sisters--had escaped. Including one Siter, as Egwene had noticed before, whose name had not been on Verin's list.  Evanellein's disappearance indicated strongly that she was Black.

 

Egwene picked up another report, frowning to herself. It was a list of all the women in the White Tower, an extensive list several pages long, broken down by Ajah. Many names had a notation beside them.  Black, escaped. Black, captured. Taken by the seanchan.

 

That last group was galling. Searin--acting with foresight--had taken a census following the attack to determine exactly who had been captured.  Nearly forty initiates--over two dozen of them full Aes Sedai--snatched in the night carried off. It was like a story told to children at bedtime, warning of Fades or Halfmen who stole wicked children. Thos women would be beatn, confined and turned into nothing more than tools.

 

<paragraph about egwene remembering being collard>

 

Each of the black ajah members on Verin's list had been seen healthy and alive following the seanchan attack. But most had escaped before egwene arrived at the tower to take her seat. Velina was gone. So were Chai, and Birlen. And Alviarin; the Black hunters hadn't managed to get to her in time.

 

<what tipped them off paragraph, worried she did it wrong in trying to get them in two groups>

 

<they did get tipped off paragraph, all but a few more at the WT got away, they cought some though and  3 not on verins list got cought as well when they made everyone retest>

 

<she's mad she did it wrong again>

 

<she's mad at alviarin>

 

She set the sheet aside and picked up another. This one bore only a few names. A list of all the women in the Tower who had not been on Verin's list and who had either been taken by the Seanchan, or had disapeared following the attack.

 

<a paraphraph saying verin believed mesana was in the tower>

 

Either way, Egwene had a problem.  She looked over the sheet before her. Each woman in the white tower had proven that she was not a darkfriend.  Each woman on verin's list was accounted for. She'd been executed, she'd been captured, she'd fled the white tower the day of egwenes ascension, she'd been taken by the Seanchan or she was out of the tower at the moment--and had been for some time.  The sisters had instructions to watch for those.

 

Perhaps they'd been lucky, and the forsaken was one of those women who had been taken by the seanchan. But egwene didn't believe in that kind of luck.  One of the forsaken would not be captured so easily.  She'd probably known about the attack in the first place.

 

That left the three names on the list in front of egwene. Nalasia Merhan, a Brown; Teramina, a Green; and Jamilila Norsish, a aRed.  All were very weak in teh Power.  And the women on this list had all been in the Tower for years.  It seemed implausible that Mesaana had been impersonating one of them and doing it so well that her subterfuge hadn't been noticed.

 

Egwene had a feeling. A premonition, perhaps.  At the very least, a afear. These three names were the only ones who could have been the forsaken.  But none of them fit, not at all.  That gave her a chill.  Was Mesaana still hiding in the tower?

 

 

 

Ok, what I get from this is that there were 3 groups of women.

 

1). Women who haven't been at either the tower or the rebel camp recently(that anyone knows of)

2). Women who were at the rebel camp.  They have all taken the oath test now, or fled during it.

3). Women who were at the tower before the raid.

a. Some were taken by the seanchan(and aparently seen to be taken away)about 40. And not at the census after it was over.  Some were on verin's list.

b. Some where accounted for after the raid.  Then fled sometime after egwene started the great purge in her camp.  Most were on the list.  Evanellein is part of this group, but she wasn't on verin's list.

c. Some where accounted for after the raid.  And either passed the oath test, or did not pass the oath test.  Most of the ones that didn't pass were on verin's list.

d. A few, who were not on verin's list, were not accounted for after the raid, and were not seen to be taken by the seanchan.  But were supposedly there sometime recently before the raid.

 

These women are, Nalasia Merhan, a Brown; Teramina, a Green; and Jamilila Norsish, a aRed.

 

Evanellein is just one of the ones who left after word spread about the great purge.  The reason egwene noted her was because she is one of the few who left after the purge began when most of the BA left, indicating that she is one too, and that she is also not on verin's list and a sitter.  A likely BA that isn't on Verins list but is a sitter, all things worth noting.  It was only a little note after all.

 

The last 3 are noted because they weren't on Verin's list, and were not known to have been lost to the raid in anyway.  And weren't accounted for.  Yet were supposedly there recently before the battle.

 

Egwene assumes the FS new about the battle and wouldn't stick around for it, and also assumes that since verin couldn't identify Mesana, that Mesaana wasn't a person on the list.  The only people who weren't already on verin's list, and maybe the only AS period, who might have left as a result of being forwarned, were those three.  It is the only category of women not listed clearly.  Unless it is a list of 3 women who were accounted for before the battle, not after it, not during egwenes purge, but now again after it. But that would be obvious to leave for the bad stuff then return right after.  I'm sticking with the "forwarned leavetaking" as the group of women these 3 belong to.

 

The reason egwene's thoughts are lead to the possibility that the forsaken could be in the tower is that, if these 3, who had been in the tower for years, is some of the few choices that could be a forsaken, then anyone could be, because nothing matches what egwene considers to be symptoms of being impersonated.  They obviously were around enough that anyone impersonating them would have trouble portraying them perfectly to the dozens/hundreds of people who knew them very well.  No one else seems to have left early, which means the FS was impersonating one of these 3 and no one knew, or the FS is continuing to impersonate someone still in the tower.

 

Obviously egwene didn't list some other possibilities, like that Mesaana could be impersonating a black sister, or just has been in hiding since, or just isn't impersonating a full AS... anymore(Danelle). But well, I guess the last one fits in with the 1 thumb up we've gotten from BS on egwene's thoughts so far.

[Luckers]

There is a search function at the top of the page which is very useful for that sort of thing, but here is the link for you.

 

A Way To Evade The Oaths

 

 

[yoniy0]

I'm not missing any of that. The process of deduction includes both, therefore Brandon's comments serves to state both that Mesaana is still in the Tower, and that she is NOT Merhan, Teramina or Jamalil. They are relevant in that they are locked in as being excluded as Mesaana candidates.

Yes, yes, you're right of course, Brandon's comment does imply that the three aren't Mesaana. Nevertheless, what I was referring to is the possibility that when Brandon says 'deduction', he means Egwene's inference that Mesaana must've found a way around the Oath-Rod-test. I was attempting to demonstrate how that process could be viewed as a deduction, rather than just voicing fears.

 

Yes, but it was to serve a purpose. Given the disasters at hand Evanellein's shrieking for Elaida's head could well have succeeded. At the very least it was not a logical position for Mesaana to take, and it directly contradicts Mesaana's own statements about what she is trying to achieve from KoD; 3, At The Gardens.

 

In effect the only chaos it could have caused is precisely the type of chaos Mesaana wanted to avoid. Therefore it makes no sense for Mesaana to do it one way or the other.

That is of course a viable possibility, but will you concede that it's merely your opinion? Is it not possible that she judged the probability low that the Hall would depose Elaida (as, admittedly, was the case), and decided the confusion she brought to the Hall is worth the risk? A confused Hall is one that can't act effectively, and remember that at the time the rebels are paralyzed due to the loss of Egwene. They're making no moves towards reclaiming the Tower.