Prove to me Graendal is alive

[Luckers]

Why can people not let go?

 

They don't want to? They don't agree with you? They think she is alive?

[Vermillion]

Again she needs to know...

 

1.  Rands brand new mentality...  His sanity wasn't changed.  It was his hardness.  It's like me deciding to drop a nuke on Afghanistan after 9/11.  Crazy... but not mentally illness. 

 

2. Someone who knows how to detect compulsion with Rand which was new again. 

 

3. Know Rand was waiting immediately with person with said ability. 

 

4. That he was using said ability to test to see if she were there. 

 

5. He was willing to balefire palace using CK.

 

6. She had the ability to release the weave in whatever manner to make it look like she was balefired and knew she needed to use that ability then and now.

 

I reread the section since I hadn't in months.  One thing about compulsion is that they only answer questions directly on what's asked. Obviously Ramshalan wasn't there long because he's back out within minutes of leaving.  Questions probably involved why are you here and by who.  Last sentence by Rand is "Too many of the Domani bloodborn are hiding, scattered through the country.  I would have them as my allies, but it would be a drain on my time to seek each one in person.  Fortunately, I have you to go on my behalf."  Before that Rand implied that he was cleaver.  The answer to that question going by how Elayne and Nyn responded to Moggie is that he would be babbling on about being an emissary from Rand.  Asked why he would likely say because he is cleaver and Rand needs allies against crafty foes... blah blah blah. Maybe going into his own Treasonous feelings about Rand and etc.  Rand certainly left the question open about what to do with smart foes before he started pumping the guy with grand ideas of him being cleaver making it almost unrelated and rhetorical.  So my number 7 reason is.

 

7. She had to ask the right questions in a short time to even suspect that Rand knows who and where she is.  If not u assume that Rand is sending the guy out randomly to make allies.  She was likely tempted by the fact that he was a lord but just sent him on his way not to cause a missing persons with a more subtle compulsion to harm Rand especially considering his treasonous ways.  That's why Rand choose him in the first place.

 

It's possible that she figured this all out in a matter of minutes and guessed Rands plan and enacted her own but it's far fetched.

[AuldGoldBeard]

Granedal is alive people = Osan'Gar is alive people after WH = Sammael is alive people after ACOS

 

There's no logical reason to believe she's alive, and would be the ultimate ret-con/narrative dishonesty from RJ after the way he's handled all of the other FS deaths.  But some people won't believe until the series is over without her appearing (in forward-moving chronological time), and maybe not even then.

 

(I know you're doing this for the FAQ and don't necessarily believe she's alive, Kathana).

[OptimusPrime]

Granedal is alive people = Osan'Gar is alive people after WH = Sammael is alive people after ACOS

 

 

Liar.

 

There's no logical reason to believe she's alive, and would be the ultimate ret-con/narrative dishonesty from RJ after the way he's handled all of the other FS deaths.  But some people won't believe until the series is over without her appearing, and maybe not even then.

 

Consider that its a cliffhanger. It is supposed to generate this kind of discussion. No logical reason to believe shes alive? Theres no logical reason to believe she is dead either. Try contributing something to the discussion.

[Jeangray]

Again she needs to know...

 

1.  Rands brand new mentality... 

 

Why? Rand told a lot of people that he was hunting for her. That was dangerous enough for Graendal even if he only used conventional attacks or even tried to capture her. After all, look what happened to Asmo and Semiraghe.

 

2. Someone who knows how to detect compulsion with Rand which was new again.

 

How was that new? Rahvin was concerned about his compulsion being detected and he was a man! Verin also mused on that in tPoD prologue. 3rd age AS can detect compulsion.  

 

3. Know Rand was waiting immediately with person with said ability.

 

 

AS and Nynaeve in particular have been trailing after Rand for ages, so that would have been obvious. Or are you saying that Graendal didn't have any surveyance on him at all? That would contradict Rand's characterization of her as intelligent.

 

4. That he was using said ability to test to see if she were there.

 

 

Another very obvious move on his part, since everybody knows that it is her signature move.

 

5. He was willing to balefire palace using CK.

 

A strawman. She didn't need to know that. Rand deducing that she was there was wholly sufficient for her to try to play dead. Even his focussing so much on looking for her would have been enough for her to abandon the place and leave a decoy.

 

6. She had the ability to release the weave in whatever manner to make it look like she was balefired

 

Another strawman. All she needed was to rig the weaves to dissipate - which we know the FS can do, as we saw Rahvin doing it. Also, we saw FS making the weave do something on trigger and inform them over great distances, like Sammael did with his messenger to Rand.

Or she wasn't there in the first place.

 

7. She had to ask the right questions in a short time

 

She is supposed to be highly intelligent and a brilliant psychologist. She also knew that Rand was actively looking for her. If she couldn't ask the right questions, who could?

 

Basically, for Graendal to be dead, she'd have had to engage in a lot of idiotic and out of character behavior.

Not impossible by any means, since the Forsaken are portrayed as such losers and so undeserving of their reputations that one has to wonder why LTT et al. had such problems with doing away with the lot of them. But not manadatory either and it was purposefully left open.

[AuldGoldBeard]

Granedal is alive people = Osan'Gar is alive people after WH = Sammael is alive people after ACOS

 

 

Liar.

 

There's no logical reason to believe she's alive, and would be the ultimate ret-con/narrative dishonesty from RJ after the way he's handled all of the other FS deaths.  But some people won't believe until the series is over without her appearing, and maybe not even then.

 

Consider that its a cliffhanger. It is supposed to generate this kind of discussion. No logical reason to believe shes alive? Theres no logical reason to believe she is dead either. Try contributing something to the discussion.

 

The logical reason she's dead was spelled out by Rand, and Min, and Nynaeve for those too slow to pick up on it on their own.

 

RJ has never had a cliffhanger is he dead/isn't he dead moment in the entire series.  He has never resorted to that kind of trickery.  He has never dropped a major surprise in the story without dozens of hints leading up to it.  At this point, no logical person can believe Graendal is dead based on the text, only on their desires for how the plot and story should turn out.

[bubbified]

I this same thing posted it on the other grendel thread.  The writer will do whatever generates the most interest/stimulation to the fans.  He has the precident to do whatever he wants as well.

 

Rand had slim chances for his attack to work.  But not even close to impossible.  Any of the reasons given make it a slim chance.  And what are ta'vern?  Miracle workers.  Thats what they deal in, chance.

 

So we see Greandal could've died.  For failure to overact to the danger, and to overact in the form of abandoning her shelter outright, which was said she was capable of doing, but that she would loath to do.

 

We have a precedent of forsaken dying, and being brought back to life, and we have a precedent of forsaken dying and not being brought back to life(so far). 

 

The writer can do it however he wants, and the more we say about it, the more we're giving him to help set us up (assuming it fits in, or at least not contradicts, the outline).

 

[Jeangray]

RJ has never had a cliffhanger is he dead/isn't he dead moment in the entire series. 

 

So, how do you view Rand's almost killing Ishamael twice and then finally really killing him, only for Ishy to bounce back in a different body? There were far more reasons to think that Ishamael was dead and gone all these times than  with Graendal, where we didn't actually see the act and only got Rand's very flawed suppositions. And all 3 times Rand was wholly sure that he got him too, and "logically" explained it to other characters.

 

The veritable wealth of precedent is there. OTOH, the precedents for utterly lame Forsaken deaths are also there.

[Luckers]

Ok, two topics on the same thing are pointless. I'm locking this, sorry Kath.

[JenniferL]

No worries, I just needed something shorter to read than the bigger threads.