The Unseen Eyes of Tel'aran'rhiod

[Shadar Mandarb]

So from what I understand, possible explanations of what the unseen eyes are include

• The Finns
  Mordeth/Fain
  The Dark One
  Some creatures that live in TAR
  
• 
  

Unless I am mistaken, those are the viable candidates.

 

The Finns

 

As far as we know, the Finns have no connection to TAR besides a reference to Slayer near the Tower of Ghengei there, then he disappears, presumably inside. All this proves is that the ToG is shown in TAR, and since it hasn't gone anywhere in a while of course it is shown there. Besides this, there is no real indication of any sort of relationship between the Finns and TAR besides speculation.

 

Some say the the power of Fain, or more specifically the corruption of Aridhol, is what created the unseen eyes. This theory is mostly based on the fact that there are similarities between the feel of the unseen eyes and Fain's powers in tGH as he watched Rand and Liandrin (in the women's apartments).

 

In the woodyard, the presence returned, the sense of someone there. The feel of eyes peering at him (tGH, Ch. 2)

 

And we also see Shadar Logoth described with the same phenomenon.

 

The invisible watchers filled every window, every opening, thousands of them, waiting, anticipating.

(LoC, Ch. 21)

 

However, aside from the similar descriptions, we have no indication that the power of Aridhol is in any way related to TAR, nor do we see Fain having any sort of abilities there. Of course, the source of Mordeth’s power could possibly be found there, but this theory states that Fain or Mordeth are

responsible for the unseen eyes, not the other way around.

 

The Dark One

 

Another theory is that the Dark One is the source of the unseen eyes. We get a hint per Demandred’s POV in LoC, Prologue that the DO does not gather information on the world in an omnipotent form: there is some way that he gathers some information while leaving some out that startled Demandred.

He [Demandred] was never sure how much the Great Lord knew of the world. He [Demandred] had been as startled by ignorance as by knowledge (LoC, Prologue)

 

Now, there is an important thing to take into concideration from this quote: The fact that Demandred was shocked by both ignorance and knowledge of the DO. If the DO can only view the world from TAR, this can explain both of these.

 

We see that many times when the Forsaken meet, the chosen meeting ground is TAR. This is especially true pre-Moridin and his roundup of the Forsaken. This would explain what knowledge has surprised Demandred: knowledge of his plans (possible with Mesaana and Semirhage). This is effective for several reasons: they don’t have to leave their position, there is no fear of discovery from someone to spoil

their disguise, and it is a neutral ground (except that whoever shows up first gets to pick the scenery).

 

Similarly, Rahvin was killed in TAR itself, and the DO seemed to know of it already.

 

RAHVIN DIED IN HIS PRIDE. HE SERVED WELL, YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE (LoC, Prologue)

 

So, even though Demandred just told the DO Rahvin was killed, the DO seemed to already know he was dead, because he knew the specific weave of death. Similarly, the DO states Rahvin “served well”. This could of course be referring to Rahvin’s tenure as a DF, but paired with “yet I cannot save him” I took to mean that he was serving well at the time he died, so the DO would have transplanted him, but could not.

 

Any ignorance that Demmy saw from the DO could be because the piece of knowledge was not reflected in TAR. Any information that the DO has from a source besides his eyes in TAR could be given by a random Forsaken/DF/DO’s Vermin (Rat, Crow, etc.)

 

Resident of TAR

 

The other main candidate for being the cause of the unseen eyes is some unknown creature, species or organization.

 

Heroes of the Horn

 

This could be the Heroes (unlikely, since even Hopper can’t see Birgitte while she is talking to Perrin in tSR: in fact, he doubted she was ever there

 

“What did you [Hopper] make of her?”

Her? A she? Hopper stood, looking around. Where?

“I [Perrin] was talking to her [birgitte]. Right here. Just now.”

You made noises at the wind, Young  Bull. There was no she here. None but you and I.

(LoC, Ch. 28)

 

If Hopper couldn’t perceive Birgitte or any of her conversation with Perrin while he was directly there, then it is shown that not only can the Heroes hide themselves in TAR from others, but can show themselves to one person and not another while both are present. This indicates a means of hiding that is infallible as long as the Hero chooses to obey the Precepts and stay hidden. Whether or not this is really true, it certainly suggests this, whereas the only thing I can think of to disprove this is Birgitte being removed forcibly from TAR: however, since she had taken down part of her “shield” by talking with Nynaeve and Elayne, she is therefore vulnerable to Moggy’s attack.

 

Dead Wolves

 

Another theory is that these eyes are the souls of dead wolves. Unlikely, as wolves do not care much for the two-legs and their problems unless incited to do so by Perrin in life. I do not see this changing to the complete opposite in death.

 

Unknown Creature/ Species

 

Another theory is the very one that Luckers is proposing: that there is some source of power that resides in TAR. He says that this where Mordeth gained his powers. I won’t describe this, as Luckers did an exemplary job. The scene of Perrin and the Sharan could possibly be this power: however, it just as likely may not. Indeed, if the former is the case, this cannot be the BUT, because this visit to the Wolf Dream happened in tDR, thus rendering it outside of the timeframe for the BUT.

 

A new take on the interview

 

I find several parts of Brandon’s interview interesting, and as far as I have seen have not been discussed.

Brandon: Yeah, he wanted to defeat the Dark One and he felt that he could find other ways to do it […] He originally was good. He did not…he wasn’t this terrible person to begin with but he was looking to defeat the Dark One, to find a way to defeat the Shadow. And he looked into a lot of things he shouldn’t have looked into. There are evils that are not necessarily directly related to the Dark One, though everything evil kind of has…just as there are goods that are not related necessarily to the One Power…we are talking much as Perrin runs with wolves. This is a thing older than…there are other evils things that are old in a similar way…

 

Matt: ...is the assumption then that he found one of these?

 

Brandon: He did.

 

Matt: He found one or multiple?

 

Brandon: He found many things of darkness. There is one in specific that is driving him but he knew too much. He found things he should not have gotten into and that is what turned him into…when he got there he was already corrupt. He still thought he was doing a good work. He still thought we are going to raise this Kingdom up and it is going to become this bastion against the Shadow, but he was already by then corrupted.

 

This thing that Mordeth found to give him his strange powers is apparently old, older than some sort of similar evil (presumably we have heard about/seen). Whether or not you find the factor in that Brandon apparently changed what he was going to say, we understand this much for certain. (Or I could have completely misunderstood, and he was saying it has been around longer than wolfbrothers, but I do not believe this is the case)

 

Mordeth also “knew too much”, although this could simply have been what led him to the source of power in the first place. He found things he should not have “gotten into”, and then was “turned into”…..what? He apparently turned into whatever BEFORE going to Aridhol. It also implies that his mind was warped in some way, because he “still thought he was doing a good work” even after the “change”

 

After looking at this, we can see the importance of the unseen watchers if they are indeed the BUT. Someone or something would have been watching all the events in TAR, and would know a good deal of both the Light and Shadow’s plans. This is not as dire if it is merely Fain or the Finns watching. However, if the DO has been watching TAR this whole time, he may know more about the Light’s plans than was originally assumed., or may even be “closer” to TAR, thus being able to be sealed there, or some sort of other wacky theories. If there is a creature/species we do not know about who lives in TAR, then this will obviously become of vital importance once it is unmasked.

 

I am interested to see if anyone else thinks as I do about BS’ quotes, or if I’m just shooting into the dark. Also, this was my first post, and as such apologize if there are any technical errors.

 

[Luckers]

So from what I understand, possible explanations of what the unseen eyes are include

 

The Finns

Mordeth/Fain

The Dark One

Some creatures that live in TAR

 

 

Unless I am mistaken, those are the viable candidates.

 

I'd just distinguish the difference between Mordeth/Fain and the Evil that twisted Mordeth, and guided him since then. Brandon make clear that this Evil is a completely distinct thing, for all the influence that it's had on him..

 

 

[MikeRiley]

I was reading The Shadow Rising recently and both Rand and Mat felt eyes watching them very similar to what's been described in the events listed in the first post. This happened in Rhuidean right before the bubble of evil caused them to be attacked by the dust creatures.

 

I still think the eyes watching Rand in Fal Dara were just the introduction of Lanfear in a mystical/demonic way. The woman's laughter on the wind, the eyes following him. Nowhere else do we see something quite like this.

 

Also in The Shadow Rising we learn that Slayer was an ancient evil. Given that he's two souls in one body he closely parallels Fain/Mordeth.

[DemandredFO]

It might be nice to know what Mordeth's unnatural assassins were that pursued that guy from Aridhol.  I know I'm not being specific but I can't remember all the details.  Knowing what they were may give some clue about the eyes.

[Durinax]

Also in The Shadow Rising we learn that Slayer was an ancient evil. Given that he's two souls in one body he closely parallels Fain/Mordeth. 

when did we learn Slayer is an ancient evil? We know that Mordeth sought and found an ancient evil that eventually destroyed shadar logoth

[DemandredFO]

I believe hopper said something about when Perrin asked about the hunter of wolves.  Whether or not he's referring to Shaitan or something older ala Shelob in LotR I don't know.  I mean akin to Shelob in that it may not be of the Dark One's evil but slayer provides a useful service.

[Shadar Mandarb]

Also in The Shadow Rising we learn that Slayer was an ancient evil. Given that he's two souls in one body he closely parallels Fain/Mordeth. 

 

Slayer is far from an ancient evil, seeing as both Luc and Isam are from the recent Third Age. I do not know the specific dates, but do not need to to know that he is not an ancient evil.

 

I'd just distinguish the difference between Mordeth/Fain and the Evil that twisted Mordeth, and guided him since then. Brandon make clear that this Evil is a completely distinct thing, for all the influence that it's had on him..

 

I thought that some people believed that Fain or Mordeth themselves caused the arrival of the unseen eyes. That is a different theory than the evil Mordeth found was in TAR, so I adressed it separatly. If that's not what you meant, please clarify.

 

I like the idea of the unseen watchers being the DO. It explains the evil feel to them, as well as help explain Demandred's thought that the DO has both surprising knowledge and ignorance.

 

If we were given some indication that Mordeth was in any way tied to TAR, I would believe this is the source of his unnatural powers. He was not a channeler, as he did not succumb to the taint, so could not have used a channeling ter’angreal or entered in the flesh (unless the “too much” he knew was something like this. That is, however, pure speculation) It is not impossible that Mordeth was able to enter TAR, although as far as I know nothing links Fain/Mordeth/Mashadar to TAR directly, or even implies it.

 

[Aagaard]

I like the theory that the BUT is the unseen eyes, it is as good as any I guess. I don't know if it is tied into Fain/Mordeth or the evil that made him, but there is definetly something about them. I wonder if the Jacket Info for ToFM is a clue to this also

 

Perrin Aybara is now hunted by specters from his past: Whitecloaks, a slayer of wolves, and the responsibilities of leadership. All the while, an unseen foe is slowly pulling a noose tight around his neck. To prevail, he must seek answers in Tel’aran’rhiod and find a way–at long last–to master the wolf within him or lose himself to it forever.

 

I mean it is suggestive if you follow Lucker's theory

 

So what do you say?

[Shadar Mandarb]

I took that quote to mean that Perrin needed to find the answers of how to become a wolfbrother and not lose himself in TAR. Remeber, he had just asked Hopper to teach him, and was looking for others to do the same. An "unseen foe" that is "slowly pulling a noose" implies some sort of plan that Perrin is the victim of. If he discovered something in TAR, it would likely react immediatly, not "slowly pull a noose" around his neck. It also states that "to prevail he must seek answers in TAR", yet he may find the answers to the previously mentioned things: whitecloaks (likely referring to Galad, not TAR), a slyer of wolves (Slayer anyone?), and the responsiblities.

 

Also remember that Perrin is in expressly stated danger, along with mat, per Verin in tSR. This could very well be the "unseen foe", as Perrin is thusfar unaware of the danger.

[Aagaard]

I took that quote to mean that Perrin needed to find the answers of how to become a wolfbrother and not lose himself in TAR. Remeber, he had just asked Hopper to teach him, and was looking for others to do the same. An "unseen foe" that is "slowly pulling a noose" implies some sort of plan that Perrin is the victim of. If he discovered something in TAR, it would likely react immediatly, not "slowly pull a noose" around his neck. It also states that "to prevail he must seek answers in TAR", yet he may find the answers to the previously mentioned things: whitecloaks (likely referring to Galad, not TAR), a slyer of wolves (Slayer anyone?), and the responsiblities.

 

Also remember that Perrin is in expressly stated danger, along with mat, per Verin in tSR. This could very well be the "unseen foe", as Perrin is thusfar unaware of the danger.

I am aware of this, and as I stated, I don't know if the Unseen Eyes are evil, but I just thought that the wording would be extra fuel for the once believing in this theory.

 

And I don't think it refers to Galad. Bornhald and Byar (who believe Perrin is responsible for Bornhald Sr.'s death) s with Galad, and their encounter seems to be the important. Slayer is the slayer of wolfs off course.

 

The Unseen Foe could easily be him losing control in TAR which he must learn to control along with the wolf inside him.

 

Another possible unseen foe is Moghedien and Cyndane who have been sent by Moridin to kill Perrin and Mat.

[Shadar Mandarb]

Moghedian especially, concidering her masterful use of TAR, and how she said she's the best of the forsaken there (IIRC Lanfear was good too, but not as good as Moggy). However, this still goes with my theme of Verin's warning as Moggy or Cyndane would be sent by Moridin, as part of the DF plot to kill them.

 

I also do not believe that Perrin would have any problem with Galad personally (once Morgase admits he didn't take her against her will, of course). I mean with Galad's party, but was not clear. My mistake.

 

The phrase "unseen foe" is very suggestive, and could mean one of three things: 1) Something in TAR (only link is the wording "unseen foe", similar to "unseen eyes"), 2)A DF plot of assasination (Whether darkhounds, Moggy, Cyndane, or random jobber DF), or 3)An ally Perrin does not know is a DF

 

i have a feeling I am missing a possibility or two, but most threats could probably put into these three categories as far as his "unseen foe" goes. Let me know what you think.

[Fedaykin]

Birgitte actually tells Perrin in tsr: Chapter 28 "To the Tower of Ghenjei" That slayer is not old but his Evil is Ancient. My copy of tSR fell apart recently and I haven't had a chance to replace it, so I can't put the exact wording here. It's also listed in this summary. http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/books/tsr/ch28.html

[Aagaard]

Moggy and Cyndane (assuming she is Lanfear) both claimed to have TAR as their domain, and Perrin would be in trouble if he encountered any of them. He would also be in the realworld but there he at least has A'M ad AS and wise ones.

 

I'm actually looking forward to Perrin's storyline for once even though Faile is still alive.

 

With regards to Slayer. He is not ancient evil. His powers are. But he was created in the blight and I can't see where he should be connected to the Unseen Eyes.

 

Ofcourse Slayer can use TAR - why can he do this? (as far as we know neither Luc nor Isam were male dreamwalkers)

 

Demandred was fascinated by what the DO knew and what he didn't, which opens the possibility for DO-spying in TAR, even though this is far from conclusive. Slayers powers is the only other indication that the DO has special control over TAR-abilities.

[Shadar Mandarb]

That certainly is interesting....although as he got his power from the DO, i don't see how this could be referring to the source of his evil as a different ancient evil. I always thought this was meant to imply that Slayer is a DF of some sort. We now know Slayer is an unnatural assassin of the DO, but IIRC we did not know this at the time. It was certainly implied he was evil, based on how he kills wolves and smells "bad" to Perrin, but we also know that there are many bad people who do not serve the DO.

 

However, I just found a quote that would support Slayer's evil being the "ancient evil"

 

Q: Slayer made a gateway in Far Madding when he tried to kill Rand and Min. Does this mean he uses the True Power to make his gateways?

A: Slayer does not channel. His powers come from somewhere other than the Source. Slayer is not affected by the Guardian in much the same way that Perrin wouldn’t be.

(tGS Book Tour, Books and Co.,  Dayton OH, 11 November 2009)

 

 

So we see that Slayer's evil is NOT related to the OP, whereas the DO's own power, the TP, cannot be used without access to the OP. This would certainly suggest that Slayer's evil does not come from the TP but I thought it said that the DO was responsible for Slayer. I could be incorrect or remembering wrong.

 

However, another quote, this time from RJ, discredits this.

 

Kura: Just one other question. Does Slayer know every Forsaken?

RJ: Yeah, he does.

Kura: Have all the Forsaken heard of Slayer?

RJ: Yes, they've heard of him. Slayer is not old in the way they are. Slayer does not come from the Age of Legends, Slayer is something much newer. Slayer is also known by all Forsaken... (Netherlands tour 8, April 2001)

 

So we have Birgitte saying his evil is ancient, then RJ saying Slayer is something “much newer” and not from AoL. Of course, this can mean that Slayer’s power come pre-AoL, and Slayer himself just wasn’t around by the wording RJ used. What Birgitte says supports this; that Slayer is not ancient, but his evil is. I took this to mean that he was a servant of the DO, and RJ’s quote seems to support this. I could be very wrong, however, and would not be surprised. If the DO could do this, then why is there only one Slayer? And if the DO can’t do it, then who did or how, and why is he serving the shadow now?

 

Could Gitara’s foretelling that Luc must go to the Blight have something to do with how Slayer was formed and why it has not been replicated yet? (Fain/Mordeth is a different story, as Mordeth was dead when he met Fain. Luc and Isam were both very much alive at first, but we know “one did live and one did die yet both are”)

 

If Slayer was not made by the DO, this could be very important information, especially those who believe the body swap theory. He could provide insight into how this is done. Alternatively, maybe the DO can only do this near Shayol Ghul, as Luc and Isam were in the Blight.

 

[MikeRiley]

but we know “one did live and one did die yet both are”)

 

Regarding his future importance, "three on a boat and he who is dead yet lives" could possibly refer to him.

[FarShainMael]

Just a wayward thought.. Luc killed Janduin in the Blight. (1) was this before he met Isam and (2) did he also merge with Janduin?

 

[Durinax]

Just a wayward thought.. Luc killed Janduin in the Blight. (1) was this before he met Isam and (2) did he also merge with Janduin?

 

after Luc met Isam, Janduin went to the blight after Shaiel died, and Luc left andor before his sister I believe

[Cirin]

Luc is also Rand's uncle, I believe, and Isam is related to Lan (don't remember if he's a cousin, uncle, whatever).  I remember seeing a post once where someone mentioned a story of King Arthur battling his uncle in the city of Caemlin, or something along those lines.  I remember thinking it was an interesting thought at the time.

 

As for the Unseen Eyes, I sort of hope it is related in someway to something that we've already seen, since pulling a new danger out of the hat this late in the game would feel a little too late in my opinion.  Although, tying in Tel'aran'rhiod, the bubbles of evil, and the fear and paranoia that Mordeth embodies, I could see the unseen eyes that cause tension, the ancient evil, etc. being the thing that nightmares are made of.  After all, Tel'aran'rhiod is the world of dreams, and nightmares are a very primal sort of thing - fear, paranoia, uneasiness, suspicion, etc.  It's possible that the Unseen Eyes are related to that - even the bubbles of evil have a nightmare like feel to them, and that one nightmarish town that Mat visited also had that theme of recurring nightmare every night, that they vaguely remember in the morning.

[FarShainMael]

I'm re-reading WH. In Ch10, 'A Plan Succeeds', just after the staged attack on Elayne, she enters T'A'R with Nynaeve to meet Egwene. The 'unseen eyes' are mentioned. They see a man watching them, who looked as though 'he could have been Rand's uncle'. Presumably this was Slayer in his 'Luc' form.

 

Then, later on, there is a meeting between some Black sisters, including Eldrith and Temaile. T had been in T'A'R, watching the 'wilders' (E, N, and E), and tells the Bs that 'there were others there.. A man who let them see him, and someone else I could not see'

 

Are the UE watching the BA as well?

 

[Luckers]

Then, later on, there is a meeting between some Black sisters, including Eldrith and Temaile. T had been in T'A'R, watching the 'wilders' (E, N, and E), and tells the Bs that 'there were others there.. A man who let them see him, and someone else I could not see'

 

The common theory is that that was Egwene. She jumps from one side of the room to the other, a feat Elayne remarks on. Essentially Temaille not watching (she states that she was hiding behing a pillar and couldn't see) hears seperate movement and assumed a third person.

 

 

[StefanR]

Moghedian especially, concidering her masterful use of TAR, and how she said she's the best of the forsaken there (IIRC Lanfear was good too, but not as good as Moggy). However, this still goes with my theme of Verin's warning as Moggy or Cyndane would be sent by Moridin, as part of the DF plot to kill them.

 

I also do not believe that Perrin would have any problem with Galad personally (once Morgase admits he didn't take her against her will, of course). I mean with Galad's party, but was not clear. My mistake.

 

The phrase "unseen foe" is very suggestive, and could mean one of three things: 1) Something in TAR (only link is the wording "unseen foe", similar to "unseen eyes"), 2)A DF plot of assasination (Whether darkhounds, Moggy, Cyndane, or random jobber DF), or 3)An ally Perrin does not know is a DF

 

i have a feeling I am missing a possibility or two, but most threats could probably put into these three categories as far as his "unseen foe" goes. Let me know what you think.

 

Slayer

[Barid Bel Medar]

Moghedian especially, concidering her masterful use of TAR, and how she said she's the best of the forsaken there (IIRC Lanfear was good too, but not as good as Moggy). However, this still goes with my theme of Verin's warning as Moggy or Cyndane would be sent by Moridin, as part of the DF plot to kill them.

 

I also do not believe that Perrin would have any problem with Galad personally (once Morgase admits he didn't take her against her will, of course). I mean with Galad's party, but was not clear. My mistake.

 

The phrase "unseen foe" is very suggestive, and could mean one of three things: 1) Something in TAR (only link is the wording "unseen foe", similar to "unseen eyes"), 2)A DF plot of assasination (Whether darkhounds, Moggy, Cyndane, or random jobber DF), or 3)An ally Perrin does not know is a DF

 

i have a feeling I am missing a possibility or two, but most threats could probably put into these three categories as far as his "unseen foe" goes. Let me know what you think.

 

Slayer

 

No i dont think this particular "unseen foe" refers to Slayer, as, IIRC slayer is mentioned with the whitecloaks and the unseen foe, as to what that UFOE is (or who) I cant really sayy, except that i think its most likely the BUT, in which case we dont know anyway, so we will just have to find out

[Tommatt]

Wow Luckers, I follow the BuT thread, and remember when you came up with it.  Although not quite expanded.  I must say, it sounds good.  And whether it's the BuT, or how it turns out to be, you should probably write a novel.  If you took all your therios that turned out to be wrong, and wrote them in a book, it'd be a good book :)

[Luckers]

Thanks mate. Actually I have written a book. Just finishing the final editing and then I'll be rtying to get it published. Fingers crossed eh.

[Tommatt]

Thanks mate. Actually I have written a book. Just finishing the final editing and then I'll be rtying to get it published. Fingers crossed eh.

 

GL!  I have 4 in my head in which I've started 2 on paper and outlines.  Need to get the hang of writing again and read some novels in the genre I have stories for.  I have the first 2 chapters of a fantasy novel in my head, but you read something like WoT of and get discouraged by so much world building, history, and planning.  From what I hear getting published is the hard part.