Repost: Crazy Theory Warning-Is Be'lal alive? (spoilers for tDR-KoD)

[bronnt]

Disclaimer: I don't even know how much I buy into this myself, but I find the possibility interesting.  I took this directly from a thread on tGS that was slightly off topic, and so it didn't draw even a comment.  I just want to see if anyone else has anything else to say about it.

 

Be'lal was killed by balefire.  He's the only balefire victim who wasn't directly or indirectly killed by Rand (Sammael was killed indirectly by Rand, but directly by Mashadar).  None of the others have come back, but all of those who have died through non-balefire means have returned.  The mechanics are explain so that, after each soul perishes, the Dark One has a period of time where the soul can be retrieved and transmigrated into another body, so their memories remain intact.  The mechanics of Balefire work so that the time frame has expired before the Dark One can grab the soul and transmigrate them.

 

However, it's not instantaneous.  The Dark One doesn't need to be immediately connected to the soul at the time of death in order to transmigrate them.  This has nothing to do with the "black cords" that Rand sees on some of the male Forsaken.  RJ has explained that those are only a filter for the taint, and have nothing to do with resurrection (answers of this sort are mostly related to "Who Killed Asmo" questions).  Here's a direct excerpt where RJ discusses balefired souls.

 

Robert Jordan Answers: There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern.

 

RJ directly address the possibility of a balefired soul being returned.  Be'lal is killed by Moiraine, who barely has enough strength to channel balefire, based on what we know.  So how much time is lost?  Well, Moiraine herself answers us on this point.

 

"When anything is destroyed with balefire, it ceases to exist before  the moment of its destruction, like a thread that burns away from where the flame touched it.  The greater the power of the balefire, the further back in time it ceases to exist.  The strongest I can manage will remove only a few seconds from the Pattern."

 

The Fires of Heaven, Gateways

 

So she can only take a few seconds out of the Pattern.  RJ doesn't say how stringent the time constraints are for securing a soul, but a few seconds seems like it should fall within in the window.  Perhaps Moiraine is wrong, and can actually remove considerably more from the Pattern, but it fits with what we know.  Rand's full strength burst on Rahvin, using the fat man angreal, only takes about an hour, maybe two, out of the Pattern.  He's a great deal stronger than Moiraine is.  Some things that Aes Sedai say need to be taken with a grain of salt, but there's no evidence, direct or subtle, that contradicts Moiraine here, and she's much more reliable as a source of information than your typical Aes Sedai.

 

Counterargument: At the time of writing tDR, RJ probably intended the balefire mechanic to be the ultimate foolproof weapon.  This is well before we ever learn of transmigration, or the need to use balefire over anything else, so it's most likely that RJ didn't imagine scope of how Be'lal could have survived a weak balefire. 

 

Rebuttal: He could have decided to bring him in later, when he apparently decided to add in the transmigration concept during Lord of Chaos.  There's no evidence that he'd given it much though until then, except for the mention that Rahvin couldn't have come back because he was balefired.  At that point, RJ probably had the mechanics locked in enough he could have manufactured an explanation for Be'lal returning.  So there's the possibility that he's actually out there, somewhere, and none of us would ever suspect it.

[Majsju]

In one word, No.

 

In a few more words, RJ shot this down at D*Con 05.

 

Be'lal is gone, end of story.

[Dagon Thyne]

He is alive because he never died.  If someone in the WOT world found a way into the past, they could meet him again.  His thread was burned up to a certain point in the past and his existence ceases after that point.  The reason he can't be be saved is because the Dark One has no power to remake a thread once it has been burned.  That is why Bale Fire is outlawed on both sides of the battle, shadow and light, because of it's dangers to the pattern.

[MikeRiley]

The reason he can't be be saved is because the Dark One has no power to remake a thread once it has been burned.  That is why Bale Fire is outlawed on both sides of the battle, shadow and light, because of it's dangers to the pattern.

 

Balefire was outlawed because it was unraveling the pattern itself. The forsaken (aside from Ishamael) went to the Dark not to destroy the world but for their own individual reasons. The Light side wants to save the world. Destruction on this scale was not beneficial to either side.

 

The Dark One has the power to catch the soul of a person who had been balefired. I'm pretty sure that was explained with proof in the thread creator's post.

 

That said, if Robert Jordan also told us Bel'al is gone, then he's gone.

[Dagon Thyne]

The reason he can't be be saved is because the Dark One has no power to remake a thread once it has been burned.  That is why Bale Fire is outlawed on both sides of the battle, shadow and light, because of it's dangers to the pattern.

 

Balefire was outlawed because it was unraveling the pattern itself. The forsaken (aside from Ishamael) went to the Dark not to destroy the world but for their own individual reasons. The Light side wants to save the world. Destruction on this scale was not beneficial to either side.

 

The Dark One has the power to catch the soul of a person who had been balefired. I'm pretty sure that was explained with proof in the thread creator's post.

 

That said, if Robert Jordan also told us Bel'al is gone, then he's gone.

 

The Dark One only has the power to catch a person if a powerful amount of Balefire is used.  . The more power is used, the long it burnes back in time.  If a person, is only burned back a few minutes, the Dark Ones does not have time to reach back into time to save them.  .  This is actualy the same way he rvives the Forsaken.  He reaches into the future to pull their reborn self into the past.

[Majsju]

He reaches into the future to pull their reborn self into the past.

 

What gave you that idea?

You might want to look at the personalities and memories of Moridin, Cyndane and the 'Gars, and think about what that means...

[Luckers]

The Dark One only has the power to catch a person if a powerful amount of Balefire is used.  . The more power is used, the long it burnes back in time.  If a person, is only burned back a few minutes, the Dark Ones does not have time to reach back into time to save them.  .  This is actualy the same way he rvives the Forsaken.  He reaches into the future to pull their reborn self into the past.

 

Actually its the exact opposite of that. Its if only a miniscule amount of balefire is used that the Dark One can save a soul.

 

Be'lal does not constitute. Moiraine may not be Forsaken level, but she is very far from weak.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

The Dark One only has the power to catch a person if a powerful amount of Balefire is used.  . The more power is used, the long it burnes back in time.  If a person, is only burned back a few minutes, the Dark Ones does not have time to reach back into time to save them.  .  This is actualy the same way he rvives the Forsaken.  He reaches into the future to pull their reborn self into the past.

 

Actually its the exact opposite of that. Its if only a miniscule amount of balefire is used that the Dark One can save a soul.

 

Be'lal does not constitute. Moiraine may not be Forsaken level, but she is very far from weak.

 

Hmm.  Thought the Dark One couldn't retrieve sometime who was balefired.  I mean, even though the amount of time is miniscule if the balefire is miniscule, its still time, right?

[Luckers]

Nope. If the balefire is very weak the Dark One can still save the soul--presumably this is because the Dark One has a limited window for securing a soul after death--certainly we have not seen him bring back any of the other Age of Legends Chosen--people who could have been very beneficial to him.

 

So balefire, the person dies before the Dark One realises, and they are beyond his reach before he can act.

 

That being said this is not support of the Be'lal theory--if the balefire is very weak the person may still be saved by the Dark One, but for all that Moiraine is not Forsaken strength she is not not weak, much less very weak.

[Tom Sawyer]

I think we're done with the Forsaken coming back.  There's two books left, so the plot lines need to wrap up threads, not unecessarily ressurect old ones.

[Dagon Thyne]

He reaches into the future to pull their reborn self into the past.

 

What gave you that idea?

You might want to look at the personalities and memories of Moridin, Cyndane and the 'Gars, and think about what that means...

 

 

HIs link to the forsaken give him comlete access to their memories...this way he can return their memories of their past lives to them when he brings them back.

[Majsju]

::)

[OptimusPrime]

The Dark One only has the power to catch a person if a powerful amount of Balefire is used.  . The more power is used, the long it burnes back in time.  If a person, is only burned back a few minutes, the Dark Ones does not have time to reach back into time to save them.  .  This is actualy the same way he rvives the Forsaken.  He reaches into the future to pull their reborn self into the past.

 

Actually its the exact opposite of that. Its if only a miniscule amount of balefire is used that the Dark One can save a soul.

 

Be'lal does not constitute. Moiraine may not be Forsaken level, but she is very far from weak.

 

Not that I support the idea of Bel'al surviving, but wasnt Moiraines balefire at him fairly weak? I imagined it as... as thick as a pointed finger. Im imagining the Dark Ones window wasnt completely gone but he just missed it as it was a small window type thing.

[bronnt]

The Dark One only has the power to catch a person if a powerful amount of Balefire is used.  . The more power is used, the long it burnes back in time.  If a person, is only burned back a few minutes, the Dark Ones does not have time to reach back into time to save them.  .  This is actualy the same way he rvives the Forsaken.  He reaches into the future to pull their reborn self into the past.

 

Actually its the exact opposite of that. Its if only a miniscule amount of balefire is used that the Dark One can save a soul.

 

Be'lal does not constitute. Moiraine may not be Forsaken level, but she is very far from weak.

 

Not that I support the idea of Bel'al surviving, but wasnt Moiraines balefire at him fairly weak? I imagined it as... as thick as a pointed finger. Im imagining the Dark Ones window wasnt completely gone but he just missed it as it was a small window type thing.

 

I believe we learn that she's barely strong enough to make balefire.  She says, in the quote I have from her, that the very strongest she can make only takes a few seconds from the Pattern.  Surely that's weak enough that it would allow the possibility of bringing Be'lal back, even if the DO didn't.

 

When she kills Be'lal, it doesn't say how strong the balefire was (an aside-it's similar to Asmo's death, where it says that he was consumed before his cry faded from the room).  The description is actually pretty bad ass, since it's the first time that Rand has ever seen, which makes the death seem more final, as it's probably meant to.

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

Ha ha ha!  Yes!

 

Take a look at this discussion: http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,26702.0/topicseen.html

There are 2 parts to this theory: 1 - Be'lal could have been brought back, and 2 - he was, and is masquerading as someone else.  RJ himself explains that 1 is true.  It is very hard to make a case for 2.

 

In one word, No.

 

In a few more words, RJ shot this down at D*Con 05.

 

Be'lal is gone, end of story.

That quote is incomplete.  Not good enough for me.  But, we've gone over this already.  I agree to disagree without wasting more time (unless you have something new to add?).

[Dagon Thyne]

The Dark One only has the power to catch a person if a powerful amount of Balefire is used.  . The more power is used, the long it burnes back in time.  If a person, is only burned back a few minutes, the Dark Ones does not have time to reach back into time to save them.  .  This is actualy the same way he rvives the Forsaken.  He reaches into the future to pull their reborn self into the past.

 

Actually its the exact opposite of that. Its if only a miniscule amount of balefire is used that the Dark One can save a soul.

 

Be'lal does not constitute. Moiraine may not be Forsaken level, but she is very far from weak.

 

Hmm.  Thought the Dark One couldn't retrieve sometime who was balefired.  I mean, even though the amount of time is miniscule if the balefire is miniscule, its still time, right?

 

THe Dark dones prison is utside of time thats why he can be in many different worlds at once.  He is outside of time and space.

[Dagon Thyne]

The Dark One only has the power to catch a person if a powerful amount of Balefire is used.  . The more power is used, the long it burnes back in time.  If a person, is only burned back a few minutes, the Dark Ones does not have time to reach back into time to save them.  .  This is actualy the same way he rvives the Forsaken.  He reaches into the future to pull their reborn self into the past.

 

Actually its the exact opposite of that. Its if only a miniscule amount of balefire is used that the Dark One can save a soul.

 

Be'lal does not constitute. Moiraine may not be Forsaken level, but she is very far from weak.

 

Not that I support the idea of Bel'al surviving, but wasnt Moiraines balefire at him fairly weak? I imagined it as... as thick as a pointed finger. Im imagining the Dark Ones window wasnt completely gone but he just missed it as it was a small window type thing.

 

I believe we learn that she's barely strong enough to make balefire.  She says, in the quote I have from her, that the very strongest she can make only takes a few seconds from the Pattern.  Surely that's weak enough that it would allow the possibility of bringing Be'lal back, even if the DO didn't.

 

When she kills Be'lal, it doesn't say how strong the balefire was (an aside-it's similar to Asmo's death, where it says that he was consumed before his cry faded from the room).  The description is actually pretty bad ass, since it's the first time that Rand has ever seen, which makes the death seem more final, as it's probably meant to.

 

Also, the dark one says that he can't bring Bal'lal back so I t seems I was right, it its powerfull amouts that keep themalow him to revive them not weak.

[MikeRiley]

No you're not. The Dark One can bring back the Forsaken that are killed by regular means because he knows when they die. He has a limited window of opportunity to get a hold of their soul after their death. Let's say just for the sake of arguing that he can catch a soul within 5 minutes of their having died.

 

If you balefire somebody and burn their thread back 2 minutes this would mean that person died 2 minutes ago. This means the Dark One only has 3 minutes left to react and catch the person's soul. The more powerful the balefire, the farther back the person is burned and the smaller this window of opportunity is for the Dark One to do something about it.

 

If you balefire somebody and burn their thread back 10 minutes, then there's nothing the Dark One could do because his window of opportunity was already passed 5 minutes before it happened. The person was killed 10 minutes in the past and is gone for good.

[bronnt]

The Dark One only has the power to catch a person if a powerful amount of Balefire is used.  . The more power is used, the long it burnes back in time.  If a person, is only burned back a few minutes, the Dark Ones does not have time to reach back into time to save them.  .  This is actualy the same way he rvives the Forsaken.  He reaches into the future to pull their reborn self into the past.

 

Actually its the exact opposite of that. Its if only a miniscule amount of balefire is used that the Dark One can save a soul.

 

Be'lal does not constitute. Moiraine may not be Forsaken level, but she is very far from weak.

 

Not that I support the idea of Bel'al surviving, but wasnt Moiraines balefire at him fairly weak? I imagined it as... as thick as a pointed finger. Im imagining the Dark Ones window wasnt completely gone but he just missed it as it was a small window type thing.

 

I believe we learn that she's barely strong enough to make balefire.  She says, in the quote I have from her, that the very strongest she can make only takes a few seconds from the Pattern.  Surely that's weak enough that it would allow the possibility of bringing Be'lal back, even if the DO didn't.

 

When she kills Be'lal, it doesn't say how strong the balefire was (an aside-it's similar to Asmo's death, where it says that he was consumed before his cry faded from the room).  The description is actually pretty bad ass, since it's the first time that Rand has ever seen, which makes the death seem more final, as it's probably meant to.

 

Also, the dark one says that he can't bring Bal'lal back so I t seems I was right, it its powerfull amouts that keep themalow him to revive them not weak.