Early hints

[dokfeelg00d]

I am doing a more detailed re-read and got caught on the part where they were almost to Baerlon when Moiraine tells the boys that she would destroy them herself before she let the dark one have them.  This seems odd in a couple of ways:

 

If she suspects that either of the three is the dragon reborn then a.) how does she plan on getting to TG without the prophecies being fulfilled and still surviving? and b.) wouldn't she know that killing them would be the fastest way to deliver them to the DO (unless she used balefire but we aren't aware of that at this point).

 

Or was she bluffing?

[Manel Rochaid]

I think at that point, it would have been Moiraine trying to teach the boys how serious the situation was, and a good dose of fear comes in handy there.

 

Plus, I think the Aes Sedai are unaware of how able the DO is to capture a dead persons soul. He only has a limited amount of time to catch a Darkfriends soul anyway.

 

On a little side note, I'm doing a re-read myself, just finished Eye of the World. Just wondered if anyone had any idea whether it really was Kari al'Thor near the end that Rand saved?

[Hunter]

That's a good point. She had to mean it, because of the three oaths. So it seems she was prepared to kill the Dragon Reborn before letting him fall into the DO's hands. Kind of stupid since either way they'd be doomed.

 

As for Kari, I believe the general consensus is yes, that was her. Which has led to speculation that she was a Darkfriend.

[Malruhn]

To "defeat" the DO, they need the Dragon Reborn.  There is ample evidence that they could possibly defeat the DO or hold the DO at bay/delay him for some time without the Dragon...

 

However, my opinion says that Moraine KNOWS that the DO AND the Dragon Reborn would be impossible to defeat or delay... so, rather than let that happen, she's willing to kill the Dragon Reborn to keep the DO from using him.

[Impressive Bosom]

As for Kari, I believe the general consensus is yes, that was her. Which has led to speculation that she was a Darkfriend.

 

Is there a thread you could link me to discussing this? I'd really be interested in reading it...

[Jonas Dagaard]

To "defeat" the DO, they need the Dragon Reborn.  There is ample evidence that they could possibly defeat the DO or hold the DO at bay/delay him for some time without the Dragon...

 

However, my opinion says that Moraine KNOWS that the DO AND the Dragon Reborn would be impossible to defeat or delay... so, rather than let that happen, she's willing to kill the Dragon Reborn to keep the DO from using him.

agreed.  given Moraine's drive and desire I don't find it outside her capabilities or willingness to use balefire on the Rand should she believe he was being controlled, or in league with, by the DO.~

[Aagaard]

I believe Moiraine was willing to kill the Dragon Reborn if he showed signs of being on the Darkside. RJ told us that Ishamael was not lying to Rand when he told him that he had turned to the Dark One in previous battles, and that at that time the Last Battle had been a draw.

 

But it is interesting that Moiraine is aware of this, since not even the other forsaken are sure of this. I believe it is Sammael in LoC that wonders whether or not the Dragon ever had fought for the Dark One, but he is aware that attempts has been made to try and turn him.

 

But why do Moiraine have this knowlegde of the Dark One's motives when nobody else knows this except for Ishamael.

 

And as for Ishamael and the Thread-title EARLY HINTS:

I'm doing a re-read again myself and yesterday startet on the great hunt once again (the cover can barely stay on) In the prologue we follow a darkfriend named Bors (spoilers! later known as whitecloak Caridin) and I found out that the chapter was filled with early hints. For one we see a Shieneran dark-friend and Black Ajah for the first time. Ingtar might be the one but we can't be sure. We also see Ishamael give instructions via compulsion or some sort of mental meddeling. Anyway Bors/Caridin have a strange thingg happen to him later in one of the other books when he sees Mat and I figured that this is why. But the impressions that Ishamael gives Bors is all about things that are to come. This makes me believe that Ishamael actually can foretell and compell people to act in certain ways whenever one of his foretolded events happen.

 

Does this make any sense?

[MikeRiley]

We know Seanchan damane can tell the future so there's probably a learnable weave for it.

 

Moiraine would rather destroy Rand than see the Dark One get him. Letting the Dark One get him would be a sure loss for the Light, but if he's destroyed then the world's fate would still be up in the air. I might be wrong but I thought she was shaken by the idea that Ba'alzamon told Rand death wasn't an escape.

[Matrim DeLaneous]

On a little side note, I'm doing a re-read myself, just finished Eye of the World. Just wondered if anyone had any idea whether it really was Kari al'Thor near the end that Rand saved?

This scene occurred in the world of Dreams.  If I remember correctly, Nynaeve, Egwene & Kari al'Thor were together.  Then, the girls disappear leaving Kari al'Thor to be tortued by Fades.  In this context, I'd suggest that Kari is no more real than Nynaever or Egwene, and was only a conjuring of Ishy in the world of dreams. 

[Kierkegaurdian]

That's a good point. She had to mean it, because of the three oaths. So it seems she was prepared to kill the Dragon Reborn before letting him fall into the DO's hands. Kind of stupid since either way they'd be doomed.

 

As for Kari, I believe the general consensus is yes, that was her. Which has led to speculation that she was a Darkfriend.

 

Although in the second book, Moiraine seems to be re-thinking how things would transpire, in her conversation with Suian (sp?).  Whether they took action in one way or another, Rand would not be able to help becoming the Dragon Reborn ... he has no choice in the matter, and the Wheel would force him towards TG no matter what.  This is why she decides to (while still nudging them in a direction) let Rand, Mat and Perrin go on without her, to bring the Horn to Ilian. (This is a far cry from her previous position of keeping them close at all times, and even threatening to kill them before the DO would have them)  Also, since the comment about killing them, she had come to realize that they were ta-veren ... basically, I think she realizes over the course of the first and second books that the Pattern would be outside her control ... hence, she could neither stop the DO from taking Rand, nor kill him to prevent that from happening.  It is Rand's destiny to become the Dragon Reborn, and to face the DO at TG.  Whether or not Rand is up the challenge is not really something Moiraine has any control over, which is why she goes from considering killing him if the worst comes, to letting him loose on the world to fulfill his destiny.

[Kierkegaurdian]

I believe Moiraine was willing to kill the Dragon Reborn if he showed signs of being on the Darkside. RJ told us that Ishamael was not lying to Rand when he told him that he had turned to the Dark One in previous battles, and that at that time the Last Battle had been a draw.

 

But it is interesting that Moiraine is aware of this, since not even the other forsaken are sure of this. I believe it is Sammael in LoC that wonders whether or not the Dragon ever had fought for the Dark One, but he is aware that attempts has been made to try and turn him.

 

But why do Moiraine have this knowlegde of the Dark One's motives when nobody else knows this except for Ishamael.

 

And as for Ishamael and the Thread-title EARLY HINTS:

I'm doing a re-read again myself and yesterday startet on the great hunt once again (the cover can barely stay on) In the prologue we follow a darkfriend named Bors (spoilers! later known as whitecloak Caridin) and I found out that the chapter was filled with early hints. For one we see a Shieneran dark-friend and Black Ajah for the first time. Ingtar might be the one but we can't be sure. We also see Ishamael give instructions via compulsion or some sort of mental meddeling. Anyway Bors/Caridin have a strange thingg happen to him later in one of the other books when he sees Mat and I figured that this is why. But the impressions that Ishamael gives Bors is all about things that are to come. This makes me believe that Ishamael actually can foretell and compell people to act in certain ways whenever one of his foretolded events happen.

 

Does this make any sense?

 

Sorry for the double post.

 

I too, have just started a re-read and began the GH yesterday.  I was wondering as well about the prologue.  My first thought was, knowing RJ's sense of foreshadowing, I bet every last one of the individuals that the man who calls himself Bors picks out of the crowd ends up being a major character down the road.  I am pretty sure that Ingtar is the Sheinarian, I will have to read a few more books before I decide who the others are ... especially the Black Ajah.  The foretelling / compelling combo makes sense as well, I agree with you ... Ishamael most likely planted hidden thoughts as triggers in Bors' mind, so that he would have the ability to do the DO's will when the time came, but at the same time not walk around with extremely valuable information in his accessible memories.