Sell me on the books

[Kierkegaurdian]

I was always under the impression that Moiraine acted the way she did in the first book because she had some misgivings about finally realizing that the Last Battle was coming and she may or may not have found the Dragon Reborn.  The dangers of a man channeling are so ingrained in everyone (Aes Saedai and farmboys alike) that she was, even if she did not show it, extremely nervous about being around a potential male channeler.  She is concerned with finding the proper balance between controlling Rand and his potential power, guiding him enough so that he is protected but doesn't run away, all the while probably wondering if she was even concerning herself with the right bunch of people.  Also, it is important to remember that the first book is largely written from the point of view of the people from Emond's Field, and as a result, the outside world is pretty sparse when it comes to explanations. (And thus, the reader, seeing the events unfold through the eyes of the 5 least knowledgeable characters, doesn't get as much of an explanation as he or she would like)  Rand, Mat and Perrin go from thinking the farm is the edge of the world, to being thrown into an adventure with Aes Saedai, Trollocs, Shadar Logoth, and on and on.  As a result, it seems perfectly reasonable that they would not fully trust the outsiders.  They tell their dreams to each other, but they have, because of their upbringing, every reason to not trust Moiraine, and not confide in her.  The first book is mostly just an introduction to the characters ... the story gets massive, and extremely complex, to the point where major figures in the story don't even make an appearance in certain books, just because there is so much to tell.  Looking over the OPs (very reasonable) critiques of the first book, I think that it is safe to say they will all be overturned.

 

As an aside, is there any indication that RJ was "testing the waters" to see if this series would sell?  It might go a long way towards explaining the relatively straightforward plot of the first book ... once he figured out he could get away with it, and he would be able to continue the series, he went all out with the political backstabbing, triple agents, mystery characters, foreshadowing*, crazy monsters, etc.  Just a thought.

 

 

 

*Not to say there isn't a ton of foreshadowing in the first book :-)

[Elend]

Tech wise it helps to keep in mind that this is the dark age of a society that was for more advanced than our own; certain things make no sense in a traditional medieval setting, though you haven't seen most of them yet. This creates a kinda of screwed up level of technology and level of knowledge, based on what people thought was important to remember.

 

For what it's worth, and I shall be executed for this, I largely prefer Martin to Jordan. But if you give Jordan a chance it's quite good, just get past the first book. The second book is probably one of my favorites.

 

Kierkegaurdian is right on the misgivings as well. New Spring makes it pretty clear that Moiraine is absolutely terrified of the concept of the Dragon, despite her mind telling her it's all necessary. And he's also right about the first book being straightforward because if it didn't sell, at least it seemed like a complete story.

[MikeRiley]

Back to Nynaeve, she saw Moiraine as a rival and wasn't going to show weakness in front of her. If she stared in awe at the big cities then she would only be showing Moiraine that she was a child and inexperienced just like the others. She believes she is showing greater maturity and is trying to keep her image as a leader intact rather than become just one of the crowd.

 

As for why Moiraine didn't ask what happened.. The Emonds Fielders are farmers. They've never had any real excitement in their lives. She told them a few times already if anything happens tell her (mostly regarding dreams) so she probably just assumed if there was something to be said it would be. We know this to be the wrong thing, but she does not.

 

Why wouldn't Rand tell Moiraine what all went down? Moiraine is an Aes Sedai. All the stories say Aes Sedai are bad people and this particular one said she would kill him before the Dark One could take him. Anything that might be connected in some way to this fight would be held back to make her think it's less of a threat. Also, until they entered Falme they weren't really apart from each other for long and Rand at this time didn't want Egwene and Nynaeve to know about the Dark One being in his dreams. We know the 3 boys were reluctant to talk about their dreams despite knowing they were having the same ones, so there should be no surprise that he wouldn't go straight to Moiraine if something happened - unless it was still happening. The darkfriend threat was over, those things had already passed and Rand believed they had outrun them until his meeting with the Beggar. The manner of their exit from the city would have just told Rand it was all in the past. He had the Ways to worry him and then their trip to the legendary Blight where warders are said to do battle with creatures of the Dark One.

 

 

I wouldn't be too quick to call something bad writing until you've read the rest of it. That might not make much sense, but the books are written with it in mind that it will be a long story, and some things don't become relevant until much later. In the example you gave with the guard, it helped us picture the inn's setting. This guard was somebody Rand saw while he was there. He was anxious about finding Moiraine and wouldn't have been sitting still very much, and the description of this guard serves to show us how slow things are going - it's just another lazy afternoon. Rand's knowledge of this particular guard implies that he's made this same observation a number of times and nothing's changed. The guard does make a reappearance, but the first time reader couldn't know that. Once they get to that part it's just understood and you get the feeling of meeting an old acquaintance while the author doesn't have to work out a new way to introduce them. It works in this example and as you said, this guard was the best example you could think of. It sort of feels like a non-issue to me.

[Hadilmir]

King_Killer0, I see you've made acquaintance with Mr Ares. I'd recommend not arguing with him; he rarely makes sense, but when he does it's very unfortunate to be on the opposing side.

 

Since those last few posts have gotten a little hectic, make a one sentence each list of things you think we should address and we'll try our best. Also, Mr Ares is right, I didn't make it clear enough that the quality of writing for each character remains superb throughout the series, but the likability changes in the way I described. Rand is never 'inconsistent' he just does things or reacts in certain ways at that make people like him less at certain times, he is the same underlying character throughout the series.

[Tel Janin]

Forgive us for Mr Ares, we love him, but he tends to be a bit... er... blunt?

 

In my opinion, there is nothing to ask forgiveness for.  Mr. Ares is honest and straight-forward.  If you want the sugar-coated, cherry-flavored version, don't read what he posts.  Personally, I find his brusk manor refreshing (then, I've spent the last quarter century dealing with military buracracy).  The most common issue that I perceive is that people take what Mr. Ares says personally; he's not attacking, he's critiquing.  Those folks that don't like Mr. Ares need to grow a thicker hide & learn to take constructive criticism.  He wants people to post facts and back them up with proof, or post opinions and clearly define them as such.  And I agree.

 

My two coppers...

[Mr Ares]

How the hell have I not responded to your posts properly?

By not responding to my points. Saying people haven't followed what you perceive to be the most logical course of actions ignores the fact that people do not always follow the most logical course of action, for example. I told you that, you have ignored it. You say, over and over, that Moiraine is a soldier. She isn't, she is an Aes Sedai. You simply think that Rand should tell her things. You state that over and over. I get it. You think that. Your explanations are inadequate. I address them, you ignore it. You compare it to the SL dagger, but the dagger is obviously hostile, the lightning was helpful, and apparently a one off. If it recurs, it would bear mentioning. A single freak occurence? Why worry? Even if Moiraine did ask for full disclosure, Rand has no reason to give it, nor would he want to. What benefit to him? None that is clear. Yes, if there was obviously a problem, it would make sense, but this is not a case of that. I have chosen to dismiss your insults, but don't let it happen again.

 

Forgive us for Mr Ares, we love him, but he tends to be a bit... er... blunt?

I consider my bluntness to be a virtue.

 

You're making Aes Sedai out to be far more competent than they are

Not to mention the whole of humanity. People frequently do very stupid things, or for little or no reason, so to say that Rand has a reason to tell is absurd.

With that said, the White Tower and the Aes Sedai are not a pseudo-military organization. Moiraine is of the Blue Ajah, which is a political faction dedicated to writing wrongs in the world (and thus, probably a bit more worldly than others). The other Ajahs have different purposes, whether from pursuit of logic, to pursuit of scholarly knowledge, to legal matters, etc... etc... Only one of them is actually focused around a military like attitude, and that is not the Blue Ajah.

Further, the White Tower is primarily a political institution, and its closest historical parallel is the Catholic Church, not an army.

 

For what it's worth, and I shall be executed for this, I largely prefer Martin to Jordan.

Well, I'm sorry to have to do this to you, but...*executes Elend* Oh well, I guess Vin has nothing to live for now.

 

Forgive us for Mr Ares, we love him, but he tends to be a bit... er... blunt?

 

In my opinion, there is nothing to ask forgiveness for.  Mr. Ares is honest and straight-forward.  If you want the sugar-coated, cherry-flavored version, don't read what he posts.  Personally, I find his brusk manor refreshing (then, I've spent the last quarter century dealing with military buracracy).  The most common issue that I perceive is that people take what Mr. Ares says personally; he's not attacking, he's critiquing.  Those folks that don't like Mr. Ares need to grow a thicker hide & learn to take constructive criticism.  He wants people to post facts and back them up with proof, or post opinions and clearly define them as such.  And I agree.

 

My two coppers...

I wholeheartedly agree. Three cheers for Mr Ares. Hip hip...

 

King_Killer0, I see you've made acquaintance with Mr Ares. I'd recommend not arguing with him; he rarely makes sense, but when he does it's very unfortunate to be on the opposing side.

Rarely makes sense?

[Elend]

I'm dead!

 

:'(

 

Vin...

[Mr Ares]

I'm dead!

And looking remarkably well for it.

[Agitel]

I'm dead!

 

:'(

 

Vin...

 

We'll see that she gets along to you shortly.

 

Mr. Ares is right, King_Killer0, in that people really don't behave logically a lot of the time. Or even when they do, it's seldom logic in such a mechanical and objective way (unless you're of the White Ajah). Some of us do, like (somewhat ironically given the last few posts) Elend from Mistborn, who actually has to struggle and learn a lesson with Vin that not everyone operates in the same exact way or feels the need to step back and logically go through every detail on a checklist, and that he's being overly critical.

 

Second, as to whether they talked about what happened in their time away at any point: they probably did, to some degree. As some have said, Jordan doesn't really deal much with banter or irrelevant conversation. Rand and Mat no count recounted their exploits to Egwene and Perrin to some degree, and Moiraine likely overheard, but even then, Rand likely kept some secrets or didn't tell everything, but ultimately, the point doesn't contribute much.

 

But also, Perrin kept secrets as well, and now I'm thinking that everyone was keeping secrets from each other anyway in that regard and there wasn't much talking, but it's been awhile.

[King_Killer0]

I think, now that I consider the metaphysics of the series, that it makes perfect sense that Moiraine doesn't ask. She didn't ask because she understands how ta'veren work. Essentially, knowing that the two of them were what they were, she probably figured they only survived due to lots of random incidences of luck that would get her confused as to who the Dragon actually was. Ta'veren twist chance around them so something like a bolt of lightning just appearing may not even be that unusual with one present. She knows this so doesn't even bother to ask. By not asking she essentially gets rid of all the random noise that she may have had to worry about otherwise and can just go with what she has already observed. Asking would just introduce lots of questions of "is it the Power? Or is it ta'veren?" that can't really be answered.

 

An interesting approach to the problem, but it's not like she knows that the power will manifest itself in lightning, which can be either Ta'veren or One Power. What if something completely impossible happened, like the earth swallowing him whole. In panic, he writes it off as an earthquake and doesn't think it, but if Moiraine questions him, she'd see it's the one power. Or if she really believes it can't be determined whether he is the dragon or ta'veren, she might still pick up on something significant that happens during their journey. For all she knows, they may have stumbled into something else that attracts the dark one without her knowing.

 

Moraine is an Aes Sedai.  Yes, she has helped them, no she isn't forthcoming with information, and yes, she could be seen with mixed emotions depending on the scene, but in the main characters situation would you blindly trust her?  I wouldn't.  Does she want to keep them alive, yes, but to what purpose?  Again more to come in the next books.

 

Moiraine has made her motivations and intentions clear, and while I wouldn't blab everything to her, especially the stuff that puts me in danger, I'd tell her what I felt was important to know so she can protect me the best she can.

 

If none of the other odd things, which result from his being ta'veren or channeling are thought of as odd, why would that.  It was storming outside.  There is the possibility, however improbable, that it could have happened by itself.  Then there are just all the other big things that would stay in your memory and where more important at the time.

Those things WERE thought of as odd, but Bela's endurance was already known by Moiraine. I completely forgot about the mast incident. Anyway, it was thought of as odd, and when he recounted his story, he should have mentioned that as well as the lightning incident. While I'll grant that they may not have had time at that particular moment, they had their breathers for a good while after they escaped Caemlyn. That was the time they should have taken to review the situation.

 

Just trying to put a little "in their shoes" flavor to it.  I hope you read the next few books to get a better taste of the series before deciding whether you like/dislike it.  My wife read TEotW and liked it and got bogged down in TGH during a certain traveling scene which I won't spoil for you, but she thinks Twilight is a great read, so go figure.  Anyways welcome to our community and I hope you like the little story that this board discusses.

 

I will, I will, don't worry.

Forgive us for Mr Ares, we love him, but he tends to be a bit... er... blunt?

 

His bluntness doesn't bother me. It's his pretense of intellect.

 

I think to some degree we'll have to agree to disagree. You're making Aes Sedai out to be far more competent than they are, though at this point in the series, that's understandable. Think of the White Tower as a bit of an Ivory Tower from which most Aes Sedai never come out of and you'll begin to get a better picture of the culture inside.  With that said, the White Tower and the Aes Sedai are not a pseudo-military organization. Moiraine is of the Blue Ajah, which is a political faction dedicated to writing wrongs in the world (and thus, probably a bit more worldly than others). The other Ajahs have different purposes, whether from pursuit of logic, to pursuit of scholarly knowledge, to legal matters, etc... etc... Only one of them is actually focused around a military like attitude, and that is not the Blue Ajah.

 

Even with that said, Moiraine likely would have attributed any odd occurrences to ta'veren nature or, though probably less likely, either Mat or Rand channeling, which, at that point, wouldn't have made much difference, as she already suspected who it was. Neither Rand, nor Mat, nor Perrin fully trust Moiraine yet, either, and she knows that, and likely accepts that they'll keep their secrets, even if incredibly frustrating. In my view it wouldn't have been as important as you're making it out to be. I don't think I can prove that to you, really, we could probably go back and forth all day. Jordan also doesn't write out much banter or conversation, though it does happen, and is mentioned to have happened from time to time.

 

What I disagree about is that this isn't something that only a student devoted to logic would understand. When you have more information on the situation at hand, the easier it is to know what you have to do to accomplish your goal. This applies to all things in life and is pure common sense. Now, even if she doesn't really care to find out whether they channeled the one power or not, it'd still be best to ask what happened on the off chance that there is some other vital piece of information available in the story. Again, for all she knew, they could have picked up another thing that would attract the enemies to them. Who knows how many things could have happened that could potentially screw up her plans, like the SL dagger almost did. So the best course of action would be to gather all the intel she could get, even if she know that the group probably wouldn't tell her some things.

 

As for time period on a culture and tech scale, think of an early modern period. Late 1400s to early 1500s, though this is still sort of rough and they certainly don't line up 100%.

 

This is what I meant. Obviously, the setting not identical to real life medieval times, but it bears enough resemblance to it to be called be called medieval times in practicality. But Ares can't seem to be able to counter my points, so he uses straw man arguments.

 

As for the ages, people seem to grow up slow in the Two Rivers. It's a relatively sheltered place. All the boys still live and work for their families before they leave and haven't really had to grow up all the way. Rather than think about them having to be full grown men at an early age, it might be better to think of them as a bunch of kids just out of high school and just entering college. When put that way, you might get a better sense of their maturity level.

 

I realize teenagers, or even High School grads can be total retards, but when you are under the threat of death, and someone is doing everything they can to help you out, even if you don't trust them entirely, you'd want to do everything you could to help them succeed, no? So if she asks for information, I don't see why he wouldn't give it to her, so long as he believed her having that info would not negatively affect him. To just refuse her vital information that you don't think will negatively affect you and could help save your life just to irritate her goes beyond stupid and immature and falls into suicidal and insane, especially when at that point in time he has shown he trusts her to an extent by telling her of his dreams.

 

I was always under the impression that Moiraine acted the way she did in the first book because she had some misgivings about finally realizing that the Last Battle was coming and she may or may not have found the Dragon Reborn.  The dangers of a man channeling are so ingrained in everyone (Aes Saedai and farmboys alike) that she was, even if she did not show it, extremely nervous about being around a potential male channeler.  She is concerned with finding the proper balance between controlling Rand and his potential power, guiding him enough so that he is protected but doesn't run away, all the while probably wondering if she was even concerning herself with the right bunch of people.  Also, it is important to remember that the first book is largely written from the point of view of the people from Emond's Field, and as a result, the outside world is pretty sparse when it comes to explanations. (And thus, the reader, seeing the events unfold through the eyes of the 5 least knowledgeable characters, doesn't get as much of an explanation as he or she would like)  Rand, Mat and Perrin go from thinking the farm is the edge of the world, to being thrown into an adventure with Aes Saedai, Trollocs, Shadar Logoth, and on and on.  As a result, it seems perfectly reasonable that they would not fully trust the outsiders.  They tell their dreams to each other, but they have, because of their upbringing, every reason to not trust Moiraine, and not confide in her.  The first book is mostly just an introduction to the characters ... the story gets massive, and extremely complex, to the point where major figures in the story don't even make an appearance in certain books, just because there is so much to tell.  Looking over the OPs (very reasonable) critiques of the first book, I think that it is safe to say they will all be overturned.

 

Not to write off your response with a copy and paste, but my counter for this is essentially the same as the one I gave to Agitel. True I was under the impression that Moraine was doing everything she could to find the Dragon and that the lightning would have proved it, but she still had plenty of reasons to question them on what happened in their journey because it might reveal some new information on their situation that she was not aware of. And even if they don't trust her, they must see the benefits of giving her information that they don't believe will implicate them in a negative manner. I understand why they wouldn't tell her about the dreams, but not info they have no reason to withhold and every reason to give. And besides, at that point, they DID trust her to an extent. They explained their dreams to her, afterall. If they feel they can give out that information, why can't they give out information that they don't believe will have a negative impact on them?

 

For what it's worth, and I shall be executed for this, I largely prefer Martin to Jordan. But if you give Jordan a chance it's quite good, just get past the first book. The second book is probably one of my favorites.

 

I honestly wish I hadn't mentioned Martin. He is my favorite fantasy author, but that doesn't mean that I compare every other fantasy author to him as a measuring stick, and dismiss them as untalented if they do not match or surpass him. I don't view things like that. I judge authors on their own merits.

 

Back to Nynaeve, she saw Moiraine as a rival and wasn't going to show weakness in front of her. If she stared in awe at the big cities then she would only be showing Moiraine that she was a child and inexperienced just like the others. She believes she is showing greater maturity and is trying to keep her image as a leader intact rather than become just one of the crowd.

 

This is my point though, thinking that little things like being in awe of a city is showing weakness, as if it mattered to Moiraine or any one in any way. She gave up the image as leader when she agreed to follow her. What she wants is some semblance of control, she thinks that if she acts unaffected by everything they go through she will have that. However, a better way to go about this would be to try to steer things towards things she actually has authority on. For example, herbs and stuff, if Moiraine tried to argue against her there, she'd win the argument as she is simply more knowledgeable and capable there (though this wouldn't up much. Maybe a better way to do it would be to show her questioning Moiraine constantly and making arguments as to why they should do something other than what Moiraine was suggesting (she doesn't do this. She critiques her a lot, but never offers any sort of suggestions herself). She was, afterall, the head of many village discussions on decisions to make. Anyway, what she does in the book similar to a child trying to be grown up by doing 'grown up' things swearing, staying up late, rebelling just to rebel. As a person who was a major figure of authority in the town she was in, I expected her to have the maturity to realize this. I'm not saying that it's unthinkable that she would act the way she acted, people don't always see the irony of what they do. But with the way she was set up, seeing her act this way is a disappointment to me. I just really don't like this characterization by preference, and it goes double to people who have experience as authority.

 

As for why Moiraine didn't ask what happened.. The Emonds Fielders are farmers. They've never had any real excitement in their lives. She told them a few times already if anything happens tell her (mostly regarding dreams) so she probably just assumed if there was something to be said it would be. We know this to be the wrong thing, but she does not.

 

I find it very difficult to believe that with the obviously uncertain attitudes they have throughout the trip that Moiraine believed they would be honest with her. And in Caemlyn she has evidence that they weren't and she doesn't think to ask "What else haven't you told me?"

 

Why wouldn't Rand tell Moiraine what all went down? Moiraine is an Aes Sedai. All the stories say Aes Sedai are bad people and this particular one said she would kill him before the Dark One could take him. Anything that might be connected in some way to this fight would be held back to make her think it's less of a threat. Also, until they entered Falme they weren't really apart from each other for long and Rand at this time didn't want Egwene and Nynaeve to know about the Dark One being in his dreams. We know the 3 boys were reluctant to talk about their dreams despite knowing they were having the same ones, so there should be no surprise that he wouldn't go straight to Moiraine if something happened - unless it was still happening. The darkfriend threat was over, those things had already passed and Rand believed they had outrun them until his meeting with the Beggar. The manner of their exit from the city would have just told Rand it was all in the past. He had the Ways to worry him and then their trip to the legendary Blight where warders are said to do battle with creatures of the Dark One.

This goes back to Moiraine not asking them. I'll buy that it's not something they want to talk about over dinner, but if moiraine asked them, they have no reason to not mention it. More info could only better their chances at survival, so long as it's not something they think will implicate them negatively, and everything that happened during their journey besides their dreams (and, by extension, all the darkfriend's talk of Baalzamon) falls into that catergory. I also don't understand why people keep bringing up trust as an issue. Yes, they still don't trust her unconditionally, but Moiraine said she would kill them only if they go to the dark one, something they have no intention of doing, and has otherwise risked her life multiple times to save them. And they tell her about the dreams at the inn, so they clearly trust her to an extent at that point. So whats the risk in divulging information that they believe to have no negative connotations to them?

 

I wouldn't be too quick to call something bad writing until you've read the rest of it. That might not make much sense, but the books are written with it in mind that it will be a long story, and some things don't become relevant until much later. In the example you gave with the guard, it helped us picture the inn's setting. This guard was somebody Rand saw while he was there. He was anxious about finding Moiraine and wouldn't have been sitting still very much, and the description of this guard serves to show us how slow things are going - it's just another lazy afternoon. Rand's knowledge of this particular guard implies that he's made this same observation a number of times and nothing's changed. The guard does make a reappearance, but the first time reader couldn't know that. Once they get to that part it's just understood and you get the feeling of meeting an old acquaintance while the author doesn't have to work out a new way to introduce them. It works in this example and as you said, this guard was the best example you could think of. It sort of feels like a non-issue to me.

 

It isn't so much that he was given a face and a name (especially since you gave a reason why he was given one. It's to give rand a sense of familiarity). But the way it was written still bothers me. It's never a good idea to stop the action and infodump the reader if you can help it. I stick to my example that Rand should have seen him acting disinterested, but reacting quickly to a situation to find out his true nature. Even in the context you've given, where Rand knows that he is actually sharp, it would have been better to show, not tell. Rand would mention him by his name rather than "the gaurd" and show greetings toward him, but his quickness would be shown when that darkfriend tries to get start trouble. Think about someone your familar with. When you see them, you don't think "They look X, but they are actually Y" unless you have reason to comment on it. Rand is familar with this gaurd, so the writing should have been something like "And then he went back to looking uninterested in everything around him"(emphasis mine). This would have been a subtle hint that Rand knew what was really going on, but it wouldn't need to stop what was happening and we'd see his quickness for ourselves later on, maybe with rand saying "He grabbed the darkfriends hand and through him out before anyone had a chance to react, just as rand had predicted". As another has pointed out, it's only a paragraph, a small one at that, so this isn't a big deal by any stretch of the imagination, but infodumping when you can weave characterization seamlessly into a narrative is widely acknowledged to be bad writing.  

 

Since those last few posts have gotten a little hectic, make a one sentence each list of things you think we should address and we'll try our best. Also, Mr Ares is right, I didn't make it clear enough that the quality of writing for each character remains superb throughout the series, but the likability changes in the way I described. Rand is never 'inconsistent' he just does things or reacts in certain ways at that make people like him less at certain times, he is the same underlying character throughout the series.

I see. We hopefully have different standards of likability. For example, I really don't mind immoral actions or whatever, but I cannot tolerate stupidity. If Perrin's likability only fell in your eyes because he turned into a jerk (I'm merely speculating here), then perhaps I won't have the same issue.

 

Anyway, the core problem seems to revolve around Rand's willingness to discuss this info and Moiraine's inclination to ask. While I've acknowledged the reasoning of why Rand may not want to talk about it off hand due to social stigma, I have yet to hear an adequate reason of why he would choose not mention anything that happened in his journey if asked. The trust issue has been brought up multiple times and I've explained why it doesn't apply. So that means Moiraine has to ask for him to talk about it. There has been a valid argument that she may think asking is pointless because it wouldn't tell her who the dragon is, but with so much time passed between them seeing each other, much could have happened, things rand and mat aren't even aware of, and I've explained how it's best to have all the information you can get before making a decision.

 

And I appreciate that you had me summarize it like that for people. These quote replies are beginning to be a pain, but it's simply how I keep information organized so I can be sure I addressed each argument presented.

 

In my opinion, there is nothing to ask forgiveness for.  Mr. Ares is honest and straight-forward.  If you want the sugar-coated, cherry-flavored version, don't read what he posts.  Personally, I find his brusk manor refreshing (then, I've spent the last quarter century dealing with military buracracy).  The most common issue that I perceive is that people take what Mr. Ares says personally; he's not attacking, he's critiquing.  Those folks that don't like Mr. Ares need to grow a thicker hide & learn to take constructive criticism.  He wants people to post facts and back them up with proof, or post opinions and clearly define them as such.  And I agree.

 

I agree that his honestly and straightforwardness is not the issue, and I'm not at all offended by it. However I HAVE posted facts, I HAVE backed them up with reasoning, and he doesn't seem to realize it. He either ignores my arguments, uses a strawman to attack me personally rather than address my actual reasoning, or just tells me I'm wrong without explaining why. And then he actually has the balls to act as if I'm the one who is not listening to his well articulated posts and arguments. That is what I cannot tolerate.

 

By not responding to my points.

 

I have responded to them, I have no idea what drugs you are on to percieve that I have not, all you need to do is go back a few pages to see. But fine, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you simply 'misread' pages and pages of info, and try to do this one more time. But pay very close attention because if you pull any of the crap you have done so thus far (ignoring my arguments, using a straw man, or telling me I'm wrong without any explanation), then I'd rather not waste any more time debating someone who cannot debate.

 

Saying people haven't followed what you perceive to be the most logical course of actions ignores the fact that people do not always follow the most logical course of action, for example. I told you that, you have ignored it.

 

They always follow SOME logical course of action, however. there is always a reason for something happening. Stuff doesn't just randomly happen without any reason. For example, when a buckled passenger wants to get out of his or her seat, they first unbuckle and then get up. But say that the plane is crashing. The rational thing to do would be to get out of the seat, so people try, but they can't move because they still haven't unbuckled their seatbelt. That is an example of people thinking irrationally, and the reason for their irrational thought is panic because the plane is crashing. They are not going to be constantly trying to stand up with the seat belt buckled when everything is fine. That would make absolutely no sense. Maybe a person could be trying to do just that because they are brain damaged and cannot comprehend certain things, or they are trying to act funny to amuse a friend, or maybe they just did it once because it slipped their mind that they were buckled but that's my point. They're still acting irrationally for a reason. A normal human being under normal circumstances who wanted to get up from his seat would not refuse refuse to unbuckle his seatbelt for literally no reason when it interferes with his goal of getting up.

 

After the trust issue has been addressed, you are suggesting that Rand doesn't tell about his journey for literally no reason. Just because Rand don't want to. Rand doesn't want to give out vital information that has the potential of meaning the life or death of him and his friends and his love when he believes it has no negative impact on him. Just cuz. There is irrationality, and then there is outright insanity. Yet Rand's not stated to be insane, not yet. He knows the dangers. He knows the situation. At that point, he trusts Moraine enough to tell his dreams, which he has actual reason to not tell her. But he won't tell her this? For no reason? Just CUZ?!

 

No.

 

You say, over and over, that Moiraine is a soldier. She isn't, she is an Aes Sedai.

 

If it has a duck's shape, quacks, and behaves like a duck, you can call it a dog until you turn blue in the face, but it's still a duck. She answers to an organization with massive political influence, is at war with another organization (the dark one), and is in the field sent to retrieve a package that cannot fall into enemy hands. Or, in case I'm wrong about her answering to a higher order of Aes Sedai, meaning she might be organizing this by herself without he knowledge of the rest of the Aes Sedai, this is still a covert operation. But fine, I'll let this one go and say she's not a soldier. As I said before, you don't need to be a soldier or high scholar to know that more info = better chance of making the right decision. Thus, she has every reason to question them on what happened during their travels, if not because she wants to find out who is the dragon, then because something else that's useful might pop up.

 

You simply think that Rand should tell her things. You state that over and over. I get it. You think that. Your explanations are inadequate. I address them, you ignore it.

 

No, you ignore my reasonings. I can prove it. Here:

People withhold information for all sorts of reasons, some very good, some petty.

 

I'm not denying that but there is no reason given, and Moiraine has every reason to find out. It makes absolutely no sense for Moiraine not to ask and Rand not to tell.

Rand has no reason to tell.

I give my reasoning in that exact post, which is:

 

uh...wut? There's every reason to tell them what they went through. Especially after they found out the truth about the dagger, they should have realized that not everything is as it might seem and they should talk to Moiraine so that they know they didn't accidentally do something that makes them even easier to find. Even if that thought it hasn't occurred to them, in terms of talking socially, this would be one of the best stories. "Guys, you would NOT believe what happened to us at this one inn we stayed at". Consider that they are part of a village where even a visit from a gleeman would be the talk of the town for a whole year. And keep in mind that Rand doesn't know the used he one power here. He thinks it was just a stroke of luck. As such, he has absolutely no reason not to talk about it. And Moiraine should want a full report on what happened. They've been seperated for what seems to be a month or more, with darkfriends chasing them at every corner. She KNOWS Darkfriends have been chasing them from the dagger and the rumors in a town. So many things could have happened during that time period that she'd have to be stupid not ask exactly what they went through. Again, I must stress, for Moiraine this is pretty much a military operation. Even if for some reason Rand didn't wnat to tell her what happened(which he really doesn't), Moiraine has every reason to try to get the info out of him because it could mean the difference between a failed or successful mission.

 

Now, admittedly, this post is outdated because your friends actually managed to prove that Rand wouldn't talk about certain things, but it applies as evidence that you ignore my reasoning. Anyway, you then reply to that that they they don't trust her, but in the very same post I also explained why the trust argument doesn't apply.

 

I can buy that they wouldn't tell her about stuff they have reason not to tell her, like the dreams, but unless they have some reason not to tell her things, logic would indicate to give her all the information she needs so she knows how best to protect them.

 

Perhaps it's a bit bare bones, but I acknowledged that there are certain things they wouldn't tell her for trust reasons and if you refer to a previous post, you'll see me explaining that lightning and the other stuff they went through have no negative connotations to them (Besides the dreams and darkfriends talking about Baalzamon. THOSE are the things he wouldn't mention.), so there is no reason for them to keep these things secret.

 

You claim to have addressed my arguments? BULL****. You never offered a counter to any of these points that hasn't already been addressed. Or, when you did address my arguments, you used a straw man, and twisted my words into something completely different from what I was saying (I called it a typical medieval setting, where certain things are widely associated with it, not a accurate historical replication of what medieval times were like). So don't say I "just want Rand to tell her things" when I've given plenty reasons why he should. Don't tell me that my explanations are inadequate without explaining why. And DO NOT act smug, as though you just won the debate when you have done no such thing, and are completely delusional if you think you did. Few things irritate me more than people who believe to be better than they actually are.

 

You compare it to the SL dagger, but the dagger is obviously hostile, the lightning was helpful, and apparently a one off. If it recurs, it would bear mentioning. A single freak occurence? Why worry?

 

Again, your friends here did what you couldn't do, and offered a good explanation for why he wouldn't. Because of social stigma of magic being associated with magic and males. That's a good reason for explaining why Rand would instinctively not talk about what would have to be the luckiest break of all time. However, that goes back to my reasoning that Moiraine still had reason to ask about Rand's journey, and thus he would be forced to consciously address that the lightning incident.

 

Even if Moiraine did ask for full disclosure, Rand has no reason to give it, nor would he want to. What benefit to him? None that is clear. Yes, if there was obviously a problem, it would make sense, but this is not a case of that.

 

If this was a face to face conversation, I'd probably punch you in the face right about now. Instead, all I can do is refer you to the above responses, and urge you to reread the thread. The WHOLE thread.

 

I have chosen to dismiss your insults, but don't let it happen again.

 

Don't give me cause to insult you again, and it won't. It's your last chance to present a valid argument. Try not to screw it up.

 

Mr. Ares is right, King_Killer0, in that people really don't behave logically a lot of the time. Or even when they do, it's seldom logic in such a mechanical and objective way (unless you're of the White Ajah). Some of us do, like (somewhat ironically given the last few posts) Elend from Mistborn, who actually has to struggle and learn a lesson with Vin that not everyone operates in the same exact way or feels the need to step back and logically go through every detail on a checklist, and that he's being overly critical.

 

Again, I don't consider this mechanical or objective logic that you have to be in a certain frame of mind to understand. If you know more about the situation, you can better choose what you want to do. This is universal and instinctual. It's common sense. At the very most, you just need to be able to think things through to realize this, and Moiraine obviously does this all the time.

 

Second, as to whether they talked about what happened in their time away at any point: they probably did, to some degree. As some have said, Jordan doesn't really deal much with banter or irrelevant conversation. Rand and Mat no count recounted their exploits to Egwene and Perrin to some degree, and Moiraine likely overheard, but even then, Rand likely kept some secrets or didn't tell everything, but ultimately, the point doesn't contribute much.

 

Then he should have written something like "Rand explained what happened to us after we got separated." to tell the reader that Moiraine wasn't stupid enough to not seek out what could be vital information. But if they did recount it....well, okay then, I no longer have a problem, so long as it's been done.

 

But also, Perrin kept secrets as well, and now I'm thinking that everyone was keeping secrets from each other anyway in that regard and there wasn't much talking, but it's been awhile.

There wasn't as much need. Lan seems to know what happened, and they were seperated for a much shorter time. Furthermore, Perrin later mentions Aram, the traveling boy Egwene danced with, and only Rand seems to react (though it could be very well that Moiraine and Lan simply don't care). Either way, from the ease of how he admitted the existance of Aram, it's pretty believable that he explained what happened during his time away (baring his thoughts of mercy killing egwene, of course).

[Elend]

The entire thing is very much not sanctioned by the other Aes Sedai. The only one that knows about it is a friend that happened to overhear a certain something that they shouldn't have when they were younger, letting them know the Dragon was in the world again. The "war" with the Dark One hasn't had a major battle since the fall of Malkier, some forty years before, and only the Borderlands really think of that at all. The last "battle" that did anything to the continent as a whole from the Dark One was about a thousand years prior to the story. In fact, Aes Sedai are extremely unused to conflict and adventuring; I can't put spoilers in this section, but certain events in the series make this extremely clear. Not even Moiraine is necessarily used to this kinda thing, though we do know of at least one "adventure" she had prior to the current one.

 

In fact it's so unsanctioned by the Aes Sedai that lots of political fallout comes from Moiraine's actions and that is only now being resolved in the series. In a pretty epic fashion, too. The second book makes the Aes Sedai as a whole much more "real" and I believe it even features a Moiraine point of view or two.

[King_Killer0]

Okay, fine. But none the less, she has a mission on her mind and she needs to get Rand and others to safety. She has no idea what they have done since they left her, so questioning them might bring something to light that could help their mission. I'll take back the soldier comparison if Moiraine is so disconnected with the other Aes Sedai because of it, but I still feel that knowing that more information leads to better decision making is pure common sense and she should ask what happened.

[Agitel]

As for why Rand would not tell Moiraine about any exceptionally odd incidents, there's this:

 

But he had recognized one, now that he dredged them from the depths of

memory. The name he had barely stopped himself from saying. Logain. The false

Dragon. Light! Thom said they were dangerous names. Is that what Ba’alzamon

meant? Moiraine wants to use one of us as a false Dragon? Aes Sedai hunt down

false Dragons, they don’t rule them. Do they? Light help me, do they?

 

...

 

 

An Aes Sedai never lies, but the truth she speaks may not be the truth you think

you hear. That was what Tam had said, and she had not really answered his question.

He kept his face expressionless and held his hands still on his knees, trying not to

scrub the sweat off them on his breeches.

 

Really, they've spent their whole lives hearing bad things about Aes Sedai and how manipulative they are. He knows Moiraine's been helpful thus far, but he's no idea if she has some hidden motive for doing so. An Aes Sedai is an Aes Sedai, she's taken an oath not to use the One Power as a weapon except in defense of life or against darkspawn and darkfriends, but that doesn't prevent her from putting a knife in your back, poison in your tea, handing you over to someone else who wants you for whatever reason, or any number of things that could be labeled as political machinations. Just because Aes Sedai can't use the One Power as a weapon on people or say a word that isn't true doesn't make them good people, and they're well known for being incredibly crafty, with plans within plans within plans within plans.

 

As for your perception on the Tower and it's role as an institution at war... I'm going to just say RAFO (read and find out), something more of us (definitely including myself in that) should probably have been doing from the start. You've really only seen one Aes Sedai, and the White Tower is an onion of which you haven't seen anything but the top layer of, if even that. Essentially, it's too soon to judge it. There's some good stuff in here, I'd rather not spoil it. The same goes for Moiraine as a character, not quite as deep as the WT, but she's certainly got layers and motivations that you are very much unaware of as of yet.

 

Granted, that doesn't explain why she doesn't grill Rand and Mat over what they went through, but for many of the assumptions you're making or may make about the plot and the way things are going, I think RAFO will help to clarify most of those things up.

 

Some of us just keep the WoT very close to heart. Though if you want to talk about characters behaving illogically, I'd like to reference Catelyn, Eddard and Cersei from ASoIaF. Don't get me wrong, I think Martin does a better job at characterization (not to say Jordan's poor at it, Martin's a master at characterization, though I do think Jordan's a better world builder) and you get the benefit of seeing their own thought processes, but certainly they made choices that any of us were slapping our foreheads over, particularly Eddard and one particularly poor choice he made in the name of honor near the end.

 

Why do I bring up ASoIaF? Well, we get to see why they make the decisions they do. We don't with Moiraine. Could Jordan have included a line asking them about what happened? Yes, and that probably would have been better from a writing stand point, particularly for a single novel. I admit that. However, I'm the type of person who likes to fill in the holes in my head. Jordan doesn't give us a direct reason, so I infer what happened. Is it a bit illogical that she doesn't ask? Yes, I suppose, but I don't think it's a grave enough oversight that it breaks the novel, and it's certainly explainable as a character's mistake, not the writer's.

[King_Killer0]

Really, they've spent their whole lives hearing bad things about Aes Sedai and how manipulative they are. He knows Moiraine's been helpful thus far, but he's no idea if she has some hidden motive for doing so. An Aes Sedai is an Aes Sedai, she's taken an oath not to use the One Power as a weapon except in defense of life or against darkspawn and darkfriends, but that doesn't prevent her from putting a knife in your back, poison in your tea, handing you over to someone else who wants you for whatever reason, or any number of things that could be labeled as political machinations. Just because Aes Sedai can't use the One Power as a weapon on people or say a word that isn't true doesn't make them good people, and they're well known for being incredibly crafty, with plans within plans within plans within plans.

 

About that. Why doesn't he just talk to her. He says that they always tell the truth, but sometimes their words can have a double meaning. Just question her in a way that she cannot possibly mean something else with what she says, or prepare follow up questions to turn it into a process of elimination with what she truly means. I assume that at that point she is going to abandon the whole "Aes Sedai don't lie" thing but it's still an option to try out if they are somehow forced to stick to the rules of Aes Sedai. Anyway, I'm not saying that the group should trust her wholesomely, but they trust her enough to tell them that Baalzamon is in their dreams. What happened during their journey that is more offlimits than that?

 

As for your perception on the Tower and it's role as an institution at war... I'm going to just say RAFO (read and find out), something more of us (definitely including myself in that) should probably have been doing from the start. You've really only seen one Aes Sedai, and the White Tower is an onion of which you haven't seen anything but the top layer of, if even that. Essentially, it's too soon to judge it. There's some good stuff in here, I'd rather not spoil it. The same goes for Moiraine as a character, not quite as deep as the WT, but she's certainly got layers and motivations that you are very much unaware of as of yet.

Fair enough. Will read.

 

Granted, that doesn't explain why she doesn't grill Rand and Mat over what they went through, but for many of the assumptions you're making or may make about the plot and the way things are going, I think RAFO will help to clarify most of those things up.

 

That bothered me too, but I remember there being a sentence like "Anger flashed in her eyes for a second, then was gone". Given this behavior and the situation, I assume she's peeved, but she knows that there are more important things at hand right now. The fact that she acknowledged that they should have been grilled for that is enough for me.

 

Some of us just keep the WoT very close to heart. Though if you want to talk about characters behaving illogically, I'd like to reference Catelyn, Eddard and Cersei from ASoIaF. Don't get me wrong, I think Martin does a better job at characterization (not to say Jordan's poor at it, Martin's a master at characterization, though I do think Jordan's a better world builder) and you get the benefit of seeing their own thought processes, but certainly they made choices that any of us were slapping our foreheads over, particularly Eddard and one particularly poor choice he made in the name of honor near the end.

 

 

 

********************SPOILERS FOR THE END OF THE GAME OF THRONES, DO NOT READ IF YOU WISH TO KEEP SPOILER FREE FOR FUTURE READING OR WATCHING OF THE SHOW*****************************

 

On the first read, I agreed with you. On the second, not really. I caught some things that I didn't before. I don't remember the exact situation because it's been a while since I read it, but Eddard would have gotten away with it if it were not for 1. Sansa telling Cersei what Eddard was up to. I wish I could explain why, but it's been so long that I've forgotten, but I remember realizing that if she hadn't told cersei, eddard's death could have been avoided somehow. 2. if he had actually not smudged his honor beforehand. Oh, yes, it's hard do the right thing, but try doing the right thing when your best friend in the world is dying before your eyes. If eddard had told him the truth then, this all would have ended with Cersei exposed, but he did not. For entirely understandable reasons too, I would have done the same thing, but the truth of the matter is that Eddard covered up the truth to make Robert's passing less painful (The man was already breaking down from ordering the asssination of a child, and realizing that he's not been a good king or father, maybe even a bad person in general). Had he kept to his honor and told him the cold, horrifying truth, he'd still be alive right now. Catelyn's decision was understandable as well, given the emotional trauma she was going through, so while that was obviously a bad choice to make, I understand and sympathize with why she did it. Cersei, however, is simply stupid, and I did not enjoy reading her PoV in FoC at all the first time through. Second time, she was oddly more tolerable, but still the least enjoyable of the PoV's.

 

 

********************END OF SPOILERS*****************************

 

 

Why do I bring up ASoIaF? Well, we get to see why they make the decisions they do. We don't with Moiraine. Could Jordan have included a line asking them about what happened? Yes, and that probably would have been better from a writing stand point, particularly for a single novel. I admit that. However, I'm the type of person who likes to fill in the holes in my head. Jordan doesn't give us a direct reason, so I infer what happened. Is it a bit illogical that she doesn't ask? Yes, I suppose, but I don't think it's a grave enough oversight that it breaks the novel, and it's certainly explainable as a character's mistake, not the writer's.

 

I never suggested it was. I'm a very detailed and analytical person. I mean, honestly, what would be accomplished if they did talk about it. Now that I know that she wasn't looking for the dragon, not much (Of course, SHE didn't know that, which is why she should have asked). So it's not that big a deal to me anymore, just a momentary lapse in logic. A minor flaw. I will continue to argue that it's a flaw unless someone can find a justifiable reason for it, which no one as of yet in this long, LONG debate has, but it hardly ruins the book for me.

 

Edit: Also, this is a minor point but I just remembered one part that confused me. When they were traveling, going to from farm to farm, they say that farmers occasionally set their dogs on them and even got them in a tree for an extended period of time. Uh...they have weapons. Why not just kill the dogs? Perhaps not the nicest thing to do (really, I'm a sucker for dogs, and it's not like it's the dogs fault that they were set on them), but they have darkfriends on their tails and the farmers unjustifiably tried to harm them. It seems silly for them to have to be run down when they did nothing wrong.

[Kierkegaurdian]

Killing (or attacking) the farmers / dogs who pursued them would have drawn an awful lot of attention to themselves.  They definitely would not have wanted that.  Rand's sword draws enough attention as it is just hanging from his belt ... the quieter they got to Caemlyn, the better.  Also, they are still just a couple misplaced farmboys at this point in the story ... I don't think they could really have gotten worked up enough to fight against a farmer or his dogs just because they were protecting the farm property.  They didn't even kill the Darkfriend woman who tried to kill them with the dagger.

 

Of course, they could have brandished the weapons with no intent to use them, which would have scared most regular folk just fine.  Oh well ... they weren't the brightest kids when it comes to adventuring ... that comes in time!

[Elend]

Aes Sedai are incapable of lying because the oaths they took are incapable of being violated, at least directly. Because of that they have a lot of practice at not telling people what they don't want to know, to the point of even deluding themselves that what they're saying is true. In addition to this, Moiraine in particular has an extensive background in what amounts to politics, so she's particularly good at avoiding questions she doesn't want to answer and misleading people that do question her. Only Perrin really tries what you suggested and it fails pretty horribly. But he does get to see her naked.

 

I think as you read more about Moiraine's character you may become satisfied. When she thinks she has seen the big picture that is what she focuses on. Not other things. This is rather recurring for her and she makes some very large blunders because of this, or almost does. She's pretty uninterested in minor details. She also believes that when she's right, she's right.

 

Dogs, eh. I don't particularly like them but in that situation I don't think I'd have killed them. They weren't in obviously immediate danger for most of the trip and killing dogs could be a good way to put yourself in danger and labeled as bandits. Brandishing weapons could accomplish the same thing. Andor, which is where that part of the book takes place, is actually pretty good at keeping order.

[Agitel]

Really, they've spent their whole lives hearing bad things about Aes Sedai and how manipulative they are. He knows Moiraine's been helpful thus far, but he's no idea if she has some hidden motive for doing so. An Aes Sedai is an Aes Sedai, she's taken an oath not to use the One Power as a weapon except in defense of life or against darkspawn and darkfriends, but that doesn't prevent her from putting a knife in your back, poison in your tea, handing you over to someone else who wants you for whatever reason, or any number of things that could be labeled as political machinations. Just because Aes Sedai can't use the One Power as a weapon on people or say a word that isn't true doesn't make them good people, and they're well known for being incredibly crafty, with plans within plans within plans within plans.

 

About that. Why doesn't he just talk to her. He says that they always tell the truth, but sometimes their words can have a double meaning. Just question her in a way that she cannot possibly mean something else with what she says, or prepare follow up questions to turn it into a process of elimination with what she truly means. I assume that at that point she is going to abandon the whole "Aes Sedai don't lie" thing but it's still an option to try out if they are somehow forced to stick to the rules of Aes Sedai. Anyway, I'm not saying that the group should trust her wholesomely, but they trust her enough to tell them that Baalzamon is in their dreams. What happened during their journey that is more offlimits than that?

 

Aes Sedai can't use the power against you as a weapon (though using it for punishment is exempt from that rule), but that doesn't mean you want to get on their bad side. Aes Sedai also, by necessity, have years of experience in lying without saying an untrue word. You're being very analytical here, but there's a practical side of things, too. Even the best of Aes Sedai would switch somebody who got uppity or testing with them. Much of their authority is derived from their image alone, and they wouldn't tolerate that image being questioned, as it would be bad for all Aes Sedai as a whole.

 

And I'm not going to bother requoting it, but she was looking for the Dragon.

 

Edit: Also, this is a minor point but I just remembered one part that confused me. When they were traveling, going to from farm to farm, they say that farmers occasionally set their dogs on them and even got them in a tree for an extended period of time. Uh...they have weapons. Why not just kill the dogs? Perhaps not the nicest thing to do (really, I'm a sucker for dogs, and it's not like it's the dogs fault that they were set on them), but they have darkfriends on their tails and the farmers unjustifiably tried to harm them. It seems silly for them to have to be run down when they did nothing wrong.

 

They're still good kids. Their first reaction isn't going to be to violence, even if it is against a domesticated animal.

[King_Killer0]

Only Perrin really tries what you suggested and it fails pretty horribly. But he does get to see her naked.

 

Yeah, I can totally see the progression of events from "Question Moiraine" to "see her nude" lol  :D I'd ask how THAT worked out, but it's most likely covered in spoilers.

 

Anyway, yeah, I don't doubt that Perrin or any one else of the group would be able to out wit her here, but I would have liked to see them try atleast.

 

And yes, I suppose it would have been better not to show the weapons so word wouldn't travel, but that one douche farmer that had them work on the farm and then sicked the dogs on them would have really pissed me off. I honestly wouldn't blame them if they had reacted violently there. But oh well.

[Kierkegaurdian]

Unfortunately, there are a lot of spoiler-ific elements of Moiraine's character and the nature of the White Tower / Aes Sedai that really do explain a lot of your concerns with her behavior.  Especially in regards to Aes Sedai, and the politics of the White Tower.  Killer, have you started the second book yet?

[Elend]

You may have a better handle on Moiraine's character if you read New Spring, but it isn't a big deal and New Spring could spoil a number of other things.

 

Book 2 is the first one that really puts you inside the White Tower and initiates of the White Tower's heads. It also features a number of awesome Rand scenes, where he outgrows the farmboy role.

[King_Killer0]

Unfortunately, there are a lot of spoiler-ific elements of Moiraine's character and the nature of the White Tower / Aes Sedai that really do explain a lot of your concerns with her behavior.  Especially in regards to Aes Sedai, and the politics of the White Tower.   Killer, have you started the second book yet?

 

I want to, but I have way too great of a backlog. I'd like to get other books out of the way before I start on a 12 book series.

[Cillian]

Not even Moiraine is necessarily used to this kinda thing, though we do know of at least one "adventure" she had prior to the current one.

 

Actually Moiraine has rarely been back to the Tower since she became Aes Sedai. Things to do, people to see, you know how it is.

 

 

I think the main point of why she didn't grill the boys for every little details is simply because there wasn't time to go over everything that happened over the course of I don't know how many weeks they wer seperated.

They were all present & reasonably unscathed from the journey and they had far more pressing matters to think about.

 

Only Perrin really tries what you suggested and it fails pretty horribly. But he does get to see her naked

 

You loose some, you win some.

[Elend]

Not even Moiraine is necessarily used to this kinda thing, though we do know of at least one "adventure" she had prior to the current one.

 

Actually Moiraine has rarely been back to the Tower since she became Aes Sedai. Things to do, people to see, you know how it is.

 

 

I know, but just being out of the Tower doesn't necessarily imply she's really doing anything remotely similar to what she is in that situation, or even in a situation involving combat at all. She was just searching for the Dragon and after New Spring the immediate threats to that were disposed of. For all we know the 20 years passed with little of great importance happening.

[night_day]

On a completely different note, just to let you know, I love Perrin too, and I still like him after all these books when others couldn't stand him :)

[Mr Ares]

Moiraine has made her motivations and intentions clear, and while I wouldn't blab everything to her, especially the stuff that puts me in danger, I'd tell her what I felt was important to know so she can protect me the best she can.

And why would he feel this was important to know?

 

So if she asks for information, I don't see why he wouldn't give it to her, so long as he believed her having that info would not negatively affect him.

He might not give it because he doesn't think it will positively affect him. "We woke up, we had breakfast, we had a bath..." Of course he will leave out details. "We were able to get the window open and escape" would suffice as an explanation. Especially as this was a one-off, as opposed to the dreams which were ongoing. It is not vital information, it is not even relevant information, from Rand's POV. He has no reason to tell her.

 

After the trust issue has been addressed, you are suggesting that Rand doesn't tell about his journey for literally no reason.

No, I am suggesting that he doesn't tell her because he has no reason to tell her. What benefit to him of telling her this? None that is readily apparent. If he had just had one dream, he would probably not have mentioned it, thought no more of it. Perrin and Mat having the same dreams, and these dreams continuing, that's a sign of something going on, and it is not unreasonable to seek advice. The lightning? Just one thing. Had it happened several times, he might very well mention it. Once is an oddity, but nothing sinister. Why should he believe this information vital, a matter of life and death? Even if Moiraine asks for full disclosure, he's cannot tell her everything that happened, he would just stick to the relevant details. Doe she consider this a relevant detail? Maybe, maybe not. In that position it is quite reasonable not to mention it. Unless it happens again, in which case you should seriously start considering it.

 

You say, over and over, that Moiraine is a soldier. She isn't, she is an Aes Sedai.

If it has a duck's shape, quacks, and behaves like a duck, you can call it a dog until you turn blue in the face, but it's still a duck.

I'm not the one insisting it's a dog.

She answers to an organization with massive political influence, is at war with another organization (the dark one), and is in the field sent to retrieve a package that cannot fall into enemy hands.

None of which amounts to a soldier, necessarily. Governments can wield massive political influence, wage wars, and send agents into the field (agents not being limited to soldiers). Your analogy is flawed. Stop using it.

 

Or, when you did address my arguments, you used a straw man, and twisted my words into something completely different from what I was saying (I called it a typical medieval setting, where certain things are widely associated with it, not a accurate historical replication of what medieval times were like).

That's not a strawman, it's you putting forward a very poorly worded point. wizards and monsters are not associated with typical mediaeval settings, they are associated with fantasy settings, whether mediaeval or not. Now, maybe what you said was completely different to what you meant, but I did address what you said. That is not a strawman.