Lord of Chaos

[Guest cwestervelt]

Xeonicus: It was my understanding that "Lord of Chaos" was the name of the Nae'blis, the Dark One's chosen. I think this title originally belonged to Ishmael, but more recently it belongs to Moridin. Who knows for sure as to whether Moridin is Ishmael reincarnated, but I think he is.

 

Anyways, when Taim says, "Let the Lord of Chaos rule", I think he is either praising the Nae'blis/Ishmael/Moridin or he himself is him in disguise. There has been a theory I saw about that, but I'm not sure about it yet. At the very least, Taim is a darkfriend or atleast an ignorant puppet of Moridin.

 

Osan'gar and Aran'gar were just getting reincarnated when the order was issued. Ishamael was still down for the count and didn't get resurrected for another book. It's a little difficult for it to apply to someone no one, including those given the order, knew existed. Plus there is Graendal's thoughts how her orders to Ituralde should satisfy the orders Demandred relayed on quite nicely.

[RobertAlexWillis]

My theory on the whole 'Let the Lord of Chaos rule' is that it is not a reference to a particular person more that with everyone fighting each other they wont be able to prepare for tarmon gaidon. Also with the Seanchan Empress dead the seanchan will be in turmoil.

 

I agree. I don't think the "Lord of Chaos" refers to a particular human. The increase of chaos in the world helps the Dark One's cause, so if it IS an individual entity, it is the Dark One himself. But I think it is a methaphor for the conditions of chaos created by the Dark One's servants.

 

On the subject of Mazrim Taim I dont think he is Demandred, or that he started out as a DF. More likely that he was frustrated by his role as a teacher to the asha'man and was turned by one of the forsaken because he was promised power which I think is what he has always craved hence declaring himself the Dragon Reborn

 

Your first part is correct, since Robert Jordan has confirmed that Mazrim Taim and Demandred are not, in fact, the same person. As to the second ... I personally believe that Taim has been a Darkfriend since before he met Rand, in all likelihood taken after he was freed from the Aes Sedai who captured him and turned forcibly to the Dark by a 13/13 circle of Dreadlords and Myrdraal.

[Luckers]

Nah, i think Taim's been a darkfriend for some time now. I think he was trained by Ishamael and set to gathering men who could channel for the Shadow as much as twenty years ago.

 

We know Ishy must have done something similar for the Trolloc Wars, and it makes sense given thats when he would have become aware the Dragon had been Reborn.

[demonspawn]

But did Taim not say when he first met Rand something like ( I can't remember his exact words) where better to gain power than at the side of the Dragon Reborn. Maybe hinting that, at this point his only real desire was power, maybe to rule, and when Dashiva/Osan'gar(?) discovered this convinced him that the only way to gain it was to, for want of a better phrase, "turn to the dark side".

[demonspawn]

Just found the passage I was refering to.

 

"You are the Dragon Reborn. I don't doubt that; I acknowlege it publicly. We march towards Tarmon Gai'don. Which the prophecies say you will win. And the histories will say that Mazrim Taim stood at your right hand"

 

Lord of Chaos page 98

 

Now I am not saying this proves my theory, I think this shows his ambition. That he would eat an Ogier sized slice of humble pie to gain power to join with the dragon reborn, who he once declared himself as. And it is his assumption that they would be equals, and the consequent insult- as he sees it- of being asked to teach inferiors that sows the seeds of discontent.

 

But if you recall that Cadsuane met Taim and "Taught him laughter and tears" (as well as Logain) I don't think he would have tolerated this if he was a darkfriend.

 

Especially if you consider her treatment of Rand!

[RobertAlexWillis]

Nah, i think Taim's been a darkfriend for some time now. I think he was trained by Ishamael and set to gathering men who could channel for the Shadow as much as twenty years ago.

 

We know Ishy must have done something similar for the Trolloc Wars, and it makes sense given thats when he would have become aware the Dragon had been Reborn.

 

That's entirely possible, espeically since he knew the test.

 

"You are the Dragon Reborn. I don't doubt that; I acknowlege it publicly. We march towards Tarmon Gai'don. Which the prophecies say you will win. And the histories will say that Mazrim Taim stood at your right hand"

 

That just proves that Darkfriends can say misleading things.

[Guest cwestervelt]

And non-darkfriends can't say misleading things?

 

Taim is too arogant and showy. Darkfriends need to hide or they get killed. As a result, were he Dark, his actions would likely get him assissinated because of the jeopardy he would place those under him in. Instead, they can use him as a smoke screen.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Non-darkfriends don't usually give a specific quote from the Dark One's orders to his Chosen as a mocking joke. They also don't usually mimic orders from the Chosen to kill the only hope of the Light. It seems a little beyond reason to think that Taim isn't at least a Darkfriend at this point, whether willing or turned. The length of his service to the Dark is debatable, but in light of his almost certain current sevice, his odd Age of Legends type references and wide knowledge of the Power become much more suspicious, and indicate training only a Forsaken would give.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Quite a list of names can be compiled of people that attempted to kill Rand and were not Darkfriends.

 

Start with the almost the entirety of the Shaido Aiel...

Add various Tairen and Illianer nobles at least through his initial clashes with the Seanchan...

Numerous Whitecloaks...

 

Taim ordering the Ashaman to kill Rand was a direct violation of the orders. As to the quote, Taim's knowing it has been explained before so I won't waste the time again. Just look up the "Feast of Fools" and you can construct the phrase from 3rd Age resources.

[demonspawn]

Taim isn't too "showy" to be a dark friend because as we've seen on numerous occasions some high profile people have been outed as darkfriends who themselves could be described as showy.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Arrogant and self-important showy is not the same as overtly evil. I stand by what I have said before. Taim is to "obviously evil" for me to see him as more than a red herring.

[mike]

"very well."

 

taim's move of giving into the reds - from the tower, no less - when they asked to bond 6 men was almost rehearsed. who is BA in pervara's little party and why were they treated amicably? it was as if they were expected and taim's actions were for show.

 

taim distrusts all aes sedai and hates reds with passion.

has he bonded an aes sedai as have some of the other ashaman from the black tower?

i could only see it as an act of cruelty - like adopting a dog from a shelter for the reason of beating it regularly.

 

he is my vote for next foresaken as he is very strong in knowledge of the wrong ways to use the power - from the very beginning - and in charge of the black tower. that last one gives him too much leverage and rand/LTT is going to have to balefire his arse soon.

 

i vote LTT.

[Luckers]

Quite a list of names can be compiled of people that attempted to kill Rand and were not Darkfriends.

 

Start with the almost the entirety of the Shaido Aiel...

Add various Tairen and Illianer nobles at least through his initial clashes with the Seanchan...

Numerous Whitecloaks...

 

They were all in denial... whether willfully or not... about who he was and what he was up to. Do you honestly think that fits Taim.

 

Taim ordering the Ashaman to kill Rand was a direct violation of the orders. As to the quote, Taim's knowing it has been explained before so I won't waste the time again. Just look up the "Feast of Fools" and you can construct the phrase from 3rd Age resources

 

And yet at the exact same time both Demandred and Moridin were ordering his death... is it perhaps possible that Taim had been informed that Rand was no longer untouchable.

 

Alternatively i think Taim is also behind the attack in KoD... another sloppy attempt to kill Rand against orders, so i dont think its a viable opposition of him being a darkfriend... its in his nature, he hates rand and feels no special need for the light to win.

 

Finally for your Lord of Choas thing to work it must be a common enough saying for Taim to have said it. Something that fit contextually with what he was doing. And it doesn't. Nothing in his actions fits with a lightfriend saying something he seemingly has pulled from an obscure festival long since past. His actions, added to his tone, and the likely result, link him far to heavily with the other uses of that phrase by the dark.

 

It simply does not fit. Ockham's Razor, the simplest answer is usually the right one, especially when the other answer is complex to the point of absurdity.

[Guest cwestervelt]

The initial attack was instigated by Dashiva (Osan'gar) after getting tired of lurking.

 

Yes, Demandred was ordering Rand's death. Considering he told Kisman they would be better dead than discovered, he is making it clear that he doesn't want to be seen as involved. Assuming he is the person that sent Slayer, that same anonymity is also there to protect him.

 

Moridin did not order Rand's death at that time. What he said was "kill him if you must". Bringing everything in Rand's possession to Moridin would "redeem your [Kisman] previous transgressions" which is most likely the previous attempt to kill Rand.

 

Why would Demandred and Moridin bypass Taim to issue orders to Taim's immediate underlings. Especially if Taim is also one of theirs. Demandred in particular, if he is such a vaunted military general, would not want to cause such a breach in the chain of command.

[Luckers]

The initial attack was instigated by Dashiva (Osan'gar) after getting tired of lurking.

 

Actually the initial attack was instigated by the others, Osan'gar joined in later because, RJ claims, he reacted out of a guilty conscience... caught doing something naughty, he lashed out. Or so RJ says.

 

Yes, Demandred was ordering Rand's death. Considering he told Kisman they would be better dead than discovered, he is making it clear that he doesn't want to be seen as involved. Assuming he is the person that sent Slayer, that same anonymity is also there to protect him.

 

Thats conjecture. It could have easily have been simple posturing. 'You'd better die then fail you useless minion muahaha!!'. The fact is by Moridin's command of 'kill him if you must' we know that the stricture against killing Rand has relaxed. Demandred had no reason to toe the line. As for assuming he is the one to command slayer... a large assumption to make. And even if he is it proves nothing but a wise choice in assasin.

 

Moridin did not order Rand's death at that time. What he said was "kill him if you must". Bringing everything in Rand's possession to Moridin would "redeem your [Kisman] previous transgressions" which is most likely the previous attempt to kill Rand.

 

Or far more likely their failure to kill Rand and attain the Choedan Kal the previous time.

 

All of this doesn't alter the fact that two of the Forsaken told Kisman that killing Rand would be ok. At the same time Taim suddenly begun ordering his death... are you really suggesting coincidence?

 

I certainly dont think that Moridin wanted Rand dead, i imagine at this stage he didn't care... he probably hadn't realised the link between them yet, so he had no special reason to want him alive, but likely still harboured some hope of turning him... hence his stance of 'kill him if you must'. What he wanted was the Choedan Kal and to stop Rand from completing his plan. But that doesn't alter the fact that he DID rescind the order, and immediately Taim commanded some known darkfriends to kill Rand, and they obeyed.

 

Why would Demandred and Moridin bypass Taim to issue orders to Taim's immediate underlings. Especially if Taim is also one of theirs. Demandred in particular, if he is such a vaunted military general, would not want to cause such a breach in the chain of command.

 

My guess Moridin commanded Rand's death through Taim with the intention of slipping in and taking the Choedan Kal--he'd likely not want any channeler getting ideas, certainly not Taim. Demandred, unaware of Moridin's actions, took his own to see to the death of Rand. He enquired about the highest darkfriends amongst the Asha'men and commanded them to kill him... excluding Taim for the obvious reason of Taim not being particularily expandable...for the simple fact that he'd be hard to replace, and if he was discovered Rand would likely turn his attention to Darkfriends in the Black Tower.

 

After Kisman failed Moridin had to change his relaxed stance a little, and so he contacted Kisman.

[Guest cwestervelt]

cwestervelt: The initial attack was instigated by Dashiva (Osan'gar) after getting tired of lurking.

 

luckers: Actually the initial attack was instigated by the others, Osan'gar joined in later because, RJ claims, he reacted out of a guilty conscience... caught doing something naughty, he lashed out. Or so RJ says.

 

Partly this was guilty conscience working. Even people who don't have a conscience can have a guilty conscience, the sudden conviction - as when Rand came on Dashiva and the others - that somebody knows what they are up to. Add to this that Dashiva was plain getting tired of trailing around after Rand, taking orders. He's one of the Chosen, and the Dark One reclaimed him from death, which is really good, but he's been stuck in a decidedly second-rate body and stuck spying on Rand, fetching and carrying like a servant as he sees it, with hardly even an opportunity to put a spoke in Rand's wheels except in very minor ways. How much better if Rand simply died.

 

RJ's quote does not say that the others acted first and Osan'gar joined in. He only says Osan'gar was fealing caught in the act that Rand knew he and the others were up to something. Just as much was Osan'gar himself fealing belittled by his position.

 

cwestervelt: Yes, Demandred was ordering Rand's death. Considering he told Kisman they would be better dead than discovered, he is making it clear that he doesn't want to be seen as involved. Assuming he is the person that sent Slayer, that same anonymity is also there to protect him.

 

luckers: Thats conjecture. It could have easily have been simple posturing. 'You'd better die then fail you useless minion muahaha!!'. The fact is by Moridin's command of 'kill him if you must' we know that the stricture against killing Rand has relaxed. Demandred had no reason to toe the line. As for assuming he is the one to command slayer... a large assumption to make. And even if he is it proves nothing but a wise choice in assasin.

 

Yes it is conjecture. It is also logical and supported by Kisman's own confusion concerning whether or not they actually were supposed to kill Rand. He connects both Taim's and Demandred's displeasure more with their having been discovered trying to kill Rand than their failure to kill Rand. They were already exposed as Darkfriends by the first attempt so Demandred wouldn't care if they were found out again unless he himself was violating orders. The Slayer PoV shortly after further shows that the Chosen are not willing to act against Rand if they could be identified as doing so.

 

Only Kisman and his companions can be said has having had the stricture against killing Rand relaxed, and then only slightly. They were not free to kill him, the were only to kill him if that was the only way to get what Rand possessed. That was part of a directly issued order making it a special case. As such, it can't be used to say the orders were not still strictly enforced for everyone else.

[Luckers]

cwestervelt. Gedwyn and Rochaid were sent by Taim to Cairhain, where they blew apart Rand's rooms. Rand came on them later while they were talking with Osan'gar, and Osan'gar reacted out of a feeling of being 'caught in the act'.

 

That is what RJ meant by 'felt caught in the act'--he even states that he is talking about when Rand came on them. I mean look at the quote... what sense does that make in response to 'why did Osan'gar premeditate an attack on Rands rooms?'.

 

Look at the books. Mere hours after Taim rocks up calmly anouncing the Fearsome Foursome's dessertion, but is shocked to learn of Dashiva's involvement. Later we find out Taim ordered the attack but not Dashiva's involvement... which was in truth a knee-jerk reaction.

 

Moreover you are saying that Gedwyn and Rochaid, sent by Taim to kill Rand, arrived after Osan'gar had attacked Rand's rooms, stood around for a second talking to Osan'gar, and then left... without doing anything at all.

 

 

 

Yes it is conjecture. It is also logical and supported by Kisman's own confusion concerning whether or not they actually were supposed to kill Rand.

 

It is not logical to anyone but you. And moreover Kisman was never confused as to wether they should kill Rand. Two superior's told him flat out to kill Rand, and the third told him it was perfectly ok to kill him if he had to. In what way is that confused.

 

The only confusion he experienced was over the fact that his superiors did not seem to be aware of what each other was up to. There was ABSOLUTELY no ambiguity in the orders.

 

The Slayer PoV shortly after further shows that the Chosen are not willing to act against Rand if they could be identified as doing so.

 

Unless, as i suspect, it was Taim. Taim was likely trained by Ishy as much as 20 years ago, around the time Slayer would have first appeared. It seems very likely Taim met him or encountered him at that time... due to Ishy's imprisonment they likely spent alot of time at Shayol Ghoul. Fain certainly knows of him, likely for the same reason.

 

Only Kisman and his companions can be said has having had the stricture against killing Rand relaxed, and then only slightly. They were not free to kill him, the were only to kill him if that was the only way to get what Rand possessed.

 

Please. Kisman's orders were a direct order to kill Rand from two superiors, and a request for his property, with the permission to kill him if that was nessasary to get it. That is not a slight relaxation. Two directly commanded it, and the other treated his death as inconsiquential... do you really think that implies that they are in anyway retiscient about ordering his death.

 

You want more. In the Coffee hour Osan'gar says in reference to the attack in Cairhein. "Next time he will be killed." He admits it... openly to all of the Forsaken, and not like it was something he shouldn't have been doing, but like it was a task that he and the others had failed at.

 

I'm sorry, but your distorting the text in your need for Taim to be innocent, but it is not supported in anyway.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I would jump back in here, but Luckers seems to have it covered. ---- sitting down with popcorn and a drink ----

[Gentled Ben]

But if you recall that Cadsuane met Taim and "Taught him laughter and tears" (as well as Logain) I don't think he would have tolerated this if he was a darkfriend.

 

I've read the books through KoD, and I'm not clear on when this happened. To my recollection, Cadsuane is still struggling to teach Rand simple manners. As to her progress in teaching him that hard and strong are not the same thing, much less to remember laughter and tears...phaw! When (and how) did she teach Taim and Logain?

[Luckers]

It didn't. Cadsuane helped capture both Logain and Taim--well tried to help capture Taim, Rand's pyromaniac display in the sky sort of took care of it. She never sought to teach them laughter and tears, thats something she's only begun because it looks like they'll be around for a while.

[mike]

luckers the anal wrote AMOL and is checking cribnotes.

[Luckers]

What?

[mike]

Luckers

What?

 

that's what i say to myself after reading everthing you post. especially after slamming me about parenting skills. have you any or a sense of decency to protect their innocence?

 

 

 

however,

imagine yourself at a renaissance festival in tights, tunic and, in your case, a laquered pink, oversized codpiece. the renaissance is always portrayed as british here in the USA but the medici family supposedly set off the italian and what would later be the entire european renaissance. i know a medici in italy. they don't speak english very well but his wife is beautiful.

 

back to the american/uk version...knights had titles such as "blaeric the red", "ulrich the dwift" and others.

yours would be "luckers the anal" and rather than a knight you are a jester because you must wear a jesterer's hat as well.

 

it nearly completes my vision of you.

[Luckers]

I feel sorry for you. I thought you were just a troll at first, but now i think you're just a sad, insecure little man. And i feel sorry for you.

[mike]

Luckers

I feel sorry for you. I thought you were just a troll at first, but now i think you're just a sad, insecure little man. And i feel sorry for you.

 

no, you have me totally wrong.

your first problem was thought.

i am more of a "tired of you, kick your arse big man".

folks like myself worked to get the internet where it is and small puddle, scum skippers such as yourself find it to be some new place to paint grafitti

 

i wouldn't urinate on you if you were on fire.

 

you are forever "luckers the anal"