Question About The 'Reality' of LTT in Rand's Head in Relation To Falme/Bk 2

[FarShainMael]

Often happens that way  ;)

 

[OneDragon]

A persons personality does not remain the same forever, it is constantly changing, and to think of The dragon as 2 different personalities would be a bit too close to looking at them as 2 persons. The LTT "personality" is not changing, it is only memories from another life, slowly coming back to him. While the Rand "personality" is the one that is changing, it is the only one that I see as a real personality.

 

The dragon has only one personality IMO to which he is adding the memorys that he gets from past lives. Rand personality changes according to the things he remember from his last life, for example women taste, hate for demandred, fear for full circles etc.

[morkhon]

A persons personality does not remain the same forever, it is constantly changing, and to think of The dragon as 2 different personalities would be a bit too close to looking at them as 2 persons. The LTT "personality" is not changing, it is only memories from another life, slowly coming back to him. While the Rand "personality" is the one that is changing, it is the only one that I see as a real personality.

 

The dragon has only one personality IMO to which he is adding the memorys that he gets from past lives. Rand personality changes according to the things he remember from his last life, for example women taste, hate for demandred, fear for full circles etc.

I think you're on the right track. Indeed, what are we besides the culmination of our knowledge, experiences, and memories? Those things dictate personality and behavior. I too don't view them as LTT and Rand. They are both the Dragon.

[LanceManley]

I thought that the LTT persona was meaning an artificial creation, or even partition to protect Rand. His mind was suddenly flooded with new memories that weren't supposed to be there. So to protect itself the mind scooped up all of these memories and 'created' the LTT personality.

So LTT was never in Rand's mind, it was just an insane partition to protect the core of Rand's mind.

[morkhon]

I thought that the LTT persona was meaning an artificial creation, or even partition to protect Rand. His mind was suddenly flooded with new memories that weren't supposed to be there. So to protect itself the mind scooped up all of these memories and 'created' the LTT personality.

So LTT was never in Rand's mind, it was just an insane partition to protect the core of Rand's mind.

I couldn't disagree more. Rand IS LTT. He's finally realized and accepted that. That's why (from a certain point of view) he won't hear 'the voice'. Because the voice is him. He is the Dragon. LTT is the Dragon. They are one.

 

I consider 'the voice' a manifestation of the struggle for power; driven by regret (for what he did), fear (that he could do it again), and forgiveness (what he desperately seeks). He's forgiven himself, left the past in the past, and conquered his fear. The Dragon's soul is now in balance and ready to do what he has to.

[LanceManley]

I thought that the LTT persona was meaning an artificial creation, or even partition to protect Rand. His mind was suddenly flooded with new memories that weren't supposed to be there. So to protect itself the mind scooped up all of these memories and 'created' the LTT personality.

So LTT was never in Rand's mind, it was just an insane partition to protect the core of Rand's mind.

I couldn't disagree more. Rand IS LTT. He's finally realized and accepted that. That's why (from a certain point of view) he won't hear 'the voice'. Because the voice is him. He is the Dragon. LTT is the Dragon. They are one.

 

I consider 'the voice' a manifestation of the struggle for power; driven by regret (for what he did), fear (that he could do it again), and forgiveness (what he desperately seeks). He's forgiven himself, left the past in the past, and conquered his fear. The Dragon's soul is now in balance and ready to do what he has to.

 

No I agree that the soul of Rand and LTT are one in the same, but I mean the 'voice' he heard couldn't have been LTT because he IS LTT. So that means the voice must have been something else. Somehow Rand inherited the memories of his past life and his new brain had no idea what to do with them, so the 'new' LTT 'voice' was created.

[morkhon]

No I agree that the soul of Rand and LTT are one in the same, but I mean the 'voice' he heard couldn't have been LTT because he IS LTT. So that means the voice must have been something else. Somehow Rand inherited the memories of his past life and his new brain had no idea what to do with them, so the 'new' LTT 'voice' was created.

The 'why' of why those memories started emerging is another matter. I'm still thinking on that. Saying 'the madness' caused it seems a bit...hollow to me.

 

I was rereading the 'Dragonmount' prologue yesterday. Ishamael's 'healing' of LTT interests me. Apparently he could take away the madness. I'm wondering what effects that may have on the Dragon's soul. And if those effects remain on the next incarnation. And what the results might be.

[LanceManley]

I think madness only affects the mind, not the soul. It's possible to pass over the memories of being mad into the next reincarnation, but I think that that's as far as it goes.

[FarShainMael]

No I agree that the soul of Rand and LTT are one in the same, but I mean the 'voice' he heard couldn't have been LTT because he IS LTT. So that means the voice must have been something else. Somehow Rand inherited the memories of his past life and his new brain had no idea what to do with them, so the 'new' LTT 'voice' was created.

The 'why' of why those memories started emerging is another matter. I'm still thinking on that. Saying 'the madness' caused it seems a bit...hollow to me.

 

I was rereading the 'Dragonmount' prologue yesterday. Ishamael's 'healing' of LTT interests me. Apparently he could take away the madness. I'm wondering what effects that may have on the Dragon's soul. And if those effects remain on the next incarnation. And what the results might be.

 

I've wondered about that myself. When LTT died, he was sane, however temporarily. Rand has the same soul as LTT. If LTT  died mad, would Rand have been born mad?

 

[morkhon]

I think madness only affects the mind, not the soul. It's possible to pass over the memories of being mad into the next reincarnation, but I think that that's as far as it goes.

I'm just spitballing ideas why Rand might have these memories. Apparently he shouldn't, as other Heroes don't retain memories of their past lives (when they're not waiting in Tel'aran'rhiod). So why does Rand? I'm sure there's a reason, and I'm sure that reason is very important. But the reason may have been...an accident. Something unforseen. Something like...Ishamael's 'healing'. Something subtle. But something that plays a pivotal role in how Tarmon Gaidon plays out. Something that drastically changes how the Last Battle takes place, different from the other turnings of the Wheel. That changes the very nature of the Wheel. Maybe this will be the last time the Heroes will be spun out. Their souls will finally get a chance to rest in peace. If everything is just going to reset again, and start over...to me, that takes away from the journey. And I know that every single book in the series says that it will =cP, but I'm hoping for something unforseen and monumental.

 

Edit - By the way, I don't actually think the Wheel won't just continue along its merry way after this turning. The 'Veins' chapter pretty much shows Rand coming to terms that the cycle is necessary, and allows for second chances.

[LanceManley]

Perhaps the Creator thought it was more important for Rand to have his old memories than for the other heroes to have theirs. After all the Wheel itself doesn't hang in the balance for the other heroes.

It's possible that the Creator knew that with Saidin tainted there would be no teachers to teach Rand. And there would be the Forsaken to deal with. After all people from One Age aren't supposed to appear in the next. So the Creator returned his intricate familiarity of the Forsaken to prepare Rand.

[morkhon]

In regards to Dragonmount, it truly is the epitome of the cyclical nature of the Wheel. The Dragon creates it by killing himself there, as he dies screaming for forgiveness. The Dragon is Reborn there. And the Dragon is Reforged there when he gives the forgiveness he asked for three thousand years earlier.

 

It's a pretty epic cycle. And yes I just coined the Dragon Reforged.

[GhostAtreides]

No I agree that the soul of Rand and LTT are one in the same, but I mean the 'voice' he heard couldn't have been LTT because he IS LTT. So that means the voice must have been something else. Somehow Rand inherited the memories of his past life and his new brain had no idea what to do with them, so the 'new' LTT 'voice' was created.

The 'why' of why those memories started emerging is another matter. I'm still thinking on that. Saying 'the madness' caused it seems a bit...hollow to me.

 

I was rereading the 'Dragonmount' prologue yesterday. Ishamael's 'healing' of LTT interests me. Apparently he could take away the madness. I'm wondering what effects that may have on the Dragon's soul. And if those effects remain on the next incarnation. And what the results might be.

 

I've wondered about that myself. When LTT died, he was sane, however temporarily. Rand has the same soul as LTT. If LTT  died mad, would Rand have been born mad?

 

 

From what I've gathered, that's unlikely. LTT's soul was different in the Third Age, and whilst the soul gets spun out, it changes every time.

 

And I'm not sure if its been brought up before, but the first time that Rand gets LTT's memories, he rejects some of them, essentially. Taking quotes from the Eye of the World UK paperback, page 120-123:

 

"That bleak stone spire, a dagger stabbing at the heavens, was the source of his desolation. He had never seen it before, but he knew. The memory of it flashed away like quicksilver when he tried to touch it, but the memory was there. He knew it was there." (This is Shayol Ghul)

 

"A figure loomed over him, in a cloak the color of dried blood, a figure with a face. . . . He did not want to see the face that looked down at him. He did not want to think of that face. It hurt to think of it, turned his mind to embers." (This is BEFORE the first 'dream' with Ishamael, and is quoted exactly from the book down to the punctuation)

 

"He threw back his head and laughed; his feet were lighter than they had ever been, dancing with. . . . He could not remember the name, but it did not seem important."

 

Some could argue that the third quote is not a direct reference to LTT memories and could refer to Egwene, but it seems strange to mention both Shayol Ghul and Ishydin by description in the scene, as the first and second quotes do, and then bring up Egwene, when the scene has been written to introduce LTT's memories, but the reader is unaware of it at the time until they re-read the series. It seems to be more likely a reference to Ilyena, but Rand's mind can't deal with the fact that he killed her, and so, chooses to skip over it. All of the above scene I've quoted from seems to take place in T'A'R, or at least some kind of mind-screw induced by LTT's memories combined with fear and paranoia from escaping the Trollocs/Fade earlier, because nobody else has such odd dreams. (For those who can't remember this bit, it starts with Rand running around Shayol Ghul itself, being chased, Ishydin chases Rand all the way to Tar Valon via Dragonmount, where Rand tries to escape the White Tower, but is always drawn onwards, with people cheering him and throwing flowers and stuff and being generally happy, until he gets to the main gate, opens it, closes it, and then Fades turn up, and Rand wakes up.)

 

Likewise, going off topic here, isn't it interesting that the first time that Rand and Ishydin theoretically meet, i.e. before the 'dream' where they have a chat, Rand's head is set ablaze metaphorically speaking, and the latest meeting the two have, Rand's head is described as follows: "Oddly, Rand felt more stable--somehow--here in this place where all else appeared fluid. The pieces of himself fit together better. Not perfectly, of course, but better than they had in recent memory." - this suggests to me that the Wheel wove the balefire encounter which tied Rand and Ishydin together specifically so Rand's mind wouldn't be so screwed up in the future. Every time before tGS that Rand meets Ishydin in the 'dream', Rand's mind can't focus for some reason, same with everyone else who gets dragged there (Mat and Perrin), yet only Rand keeps getting dragged back there. I have a feeling this will be important somehow, just not in a way we have yet to guess. And what better way to overcome that deficiency of not being able to concentrate, than by absorbing one who controls it?

[Durinax]

No I agree that the soul of Rand and LTT are one in the same, but I mean the 'voice' he heard couldn't have been LTT because he IS LTT. So that means the voice must have been something else. Somehow Rand inherited the memories of his past life and his new brain had no idea what to do with them, so the 'new' LTT 'voice' was created.

The 'why' of why those memories started emerging is another matter. I'm still thinking on that. Saying 'the madness' caused it seems a bit...hollow to me.

 

I was rereading the 'Dragonmount' prologue yesterday. Ishamael's 'healing' of LTT interests me. Apparently he could take away the madness. I'm wondering what effects that may have on the Dragon's soul. And if those effects remain on the next incarnation. And what the results might be.

 

I've wondered about that myself. When LTT died, he was sane, however temporarily. Rand has the same soul as LTT. If LTT  died mad, would Rand have been born mad?

 

 

From what I've gathered, that's unlikely. LTT's soul was different in the Third Age, and whilst the soul gets spun out, it changes every time.

 

And I'm not sure if its been brought up before, but the first time that Rand gets LTT's memories, he rejects some of them, essentially. Taking quotes from the Eye of the World UK paperback, page 120-123:

 

"That bleak stone spire, a dagger stabbing at the heavens, was the source of his desolation. He had never seen it before, but he knew. The memory of it flashed away like quicksilver when he tried to touch it, but the memory was there. He knew it was there." (This is Shayol Ghul)

 

"A figure loomed over him, in a cloak the color of dried blood, a figure with a face. . . . He did not want to see the face that looked down at him. He did not want to think of that face. It hurt to think of it, turned his mind to embers." (This is BEFORE the first 'dream' with Ishamael, and is quoted exactly from the book down to the punctuation)

 

"He threw back his head and laughed; his feet were lighter than they had ever been, dancing with. . . . He could not remember the name, but it did not seem important."

 

Some could argue that the third quote is not a direct reference to LTT memories and could refer to Egwene, but it seems strange to mention both Shayol Ghul and Ishydin by description in the scene, as the first and second quotes do, and then bring up Egwene, when the scene has been written to introduce LTT's memories, but the reader is unaware of it at the time until they re-read the series. It seems to be more likely a reference to Ilyena, but Rand's mind can't deal with the fact that he killed her, and so, chooses to skip over it. All of the above scene I've quoted from seems to take place in T'A'R, or at least some kind of mind-screw induced by LTT's memories combined with fear and paranoia from escaping the Trollocs/Fade earlier, because nobody else has such odd dreams. (For those who can't remember this bit, it starts with Rand running around Shayol Ghul itself, being chased, Ishydin chases Rand all the way to Tar Valon via Dragonmount, where Rand tries to escape the White Tower, but is always drawn onwards, with people cheering him and throwing flowers and stuff and being generally happy, until he gets to the main gate, opens it, closes it, and then Fades turn up, and Rand wakes up.)

 

Likewise, going off topic here, isn't it interesting that the first time that Rand and Ishydin theoretically meet, i.e. before the 'dream' where they have a chat, Rand's head is set ablaze metaphorically speaking, and the latest meeting the two have, Rand's head is described as follows: "Oddly, Rand felt more stable--somehow--here in this place where all else appeared fluid. The pieces of himself fit together better. Not perfectly, of course, but better than they had in recent memory." - this suggests to me that the Wheel wove the balefire encounter which tied Rand and Ishydin together specifically so Rand's mind wouldn't be so screwed up in the future. Every time before tGS that Rand meets Ishydin in the 'dream', Rand's mind can't focus for some reason, same with everyone else who gets dragged there (Mat and Perrin), yet only Rand keeps getting dragged back there. I have a feeling this will be important somehow, just not in a way we have yet to guess. And what better way to overcome that deficiency of not being able to concentrate, than by absorbing one who controls it?

but didnt all of them get drawn into it  for all of EotW except for a rief period in which we have seen that all of the three boys have no interaction with Ishy

[FarShainMael]

In regards to Dragonmount, it truly is the epitome of the cyclical nature of the Wheel. The Dragon creates it by killing himself there, as he dies screaming for forgiveness. The Dragon is Reborn there. And the Dragon is Reforged there when he gives the forgiveness he asked for three thousand years earlier.

 

It's a pretty epic cycle. And yes I just coined the Dragon Reforged.

 

:)  8)

 

Seriously: A thought occurs.. Later in this Turning (or early in the next?), something will have to flatten Dragonmount, so that it can be re-made in the next AoL.

 

[morkhon]

I've wondered about that myself. When LTT died, he was sane, however temporarily. Rand has the same soul as LTT. If LTT  died mad, would Rand have been born mad?

 

I take it a step beyond that. Could the Healing Ishamael gave him had some unforseen side effects that persist even three thousand years later? Again, something that could make this turning of the Wheel unique and different from all the others. Could Ishamael have inadvertently given the Dragon's reincarnated soul some protection from madness? Could that be the cause for the memories Rand has of his past life? And those memories leading to a full Reforging of his soul? Access to memories and experiences that will enable him to finally do something the Dragon has never accomplished in any other turning?

 

Without those few moments of lucidity at the end, LTT would never have been aware of what he had done, and died screaming in agony, begging for forgiveness, and plagued in regret. How would that have changed the manifestation of 'the voice' in Rand's head?

[FarShainMael]

It wouldn't be three thousand years to the soul in question, though, would it? Where do souls dwell/stay/exist in between rebirths? Or do they simply make an instantaneous transition? If so, any such effects would indeed persist.

 

As for protection.. IIRC, Ishy Healed LTT using the True Power.And now there are signs of a connection between Ishy-din and Rand, apparently due to crossing their balefire streams..

 

And if LTT had not been Healed.. well, Dragonmount wouldn't exist, but that's a side issue. The LTT-construct would have arisen in part from Rand's readings about LTT. Someone, somewhere (Jain Farstrider?) would have gathered accounts of those last days. Enough for Rand to have read about LTT's 'Kinslayer' epithet. The remorse that LTT felt, however, would not have been written down anywhere, because only Ishy knew about it. That remorse found its way into the construct, and it had to come from LTT's memories. So, if LTT had died mad by whatever means, Rand would not have experienced this remorse, though he had enough of his own from the deaths of the women in his List.

 

But at the end there it was not the List that had his attention, it was just one person, Ilyena, and it was the realisation that Ilyena could live again that brought him back to sanity, Reforged him.

 

Do we have a case?

 

[morkhon]

It wouldn't be three thousand years to the soul in question, though, would it? Where do souls dwell/stay/exist in between rebirths? Or do they simply make an instantaneous transition? If so, any such effects would indeed persist.

 

But at the end there it was not the List that had his attention, it was just one person, Ilyena, and it was the realisation that Ilyena could live again that brought him back to sanity, Reforged him.

 

Do we have a case?

 

The answer to your first question is that they wait in Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

As for the rest of your post, that's the point. Without that remorse and regret that LTT felt after being Healed, would the Dragon's soul have been plagued by that agony? While it tormented Rand, it did ultimately lead to him accepting why he has to defeat the DO and save the Wheel. You're making a huge leap of faith that he would have constructed that remorse simply out of some vague readings. So in a very real sense Ishamael has given the Dragon the resolve to preserve the Wheel. As for the fact Dragonmount wouldn't exist being a 'side issue'. That's understating its significance a bit. How could the Dragon be Reborn on its slope if it wasn't there? What impact would that have on the creation of Tar Valon? Dragonmount itself is quite pivotal.

 

 

[FarShainMael]

Take another look at my post, because I'm actually agreeing with you!  ;)  I didn't say that 'he ... constructed that remorse simply out of some vague readings'; I said, specifically, that 'the remorse that LTT felt, however, would not have been written down anywhere, because only Ishy knew about it. That remorse found its way into the construct, and it had to come from LTT's memories'.

 

By calling the existence or not of DM a 'side issue' I meant in relation to the discussion about Ishy's Healing of LTT and its consequences. If it didn't exist the Dragon would be reborn elsewhere (where..?), and Tar Valon would still exst, albeit not on an island in the river Erinin. This age would be a bit different in its details, that's all.

 

So, yes, we DO have a case.

 

[morkhon]

Ah, guess I misread a bit of what you said.

 

Oh, the irony of Ishamael Healing LTT to 'rub his face in it' turning out, in the end, to doom the Shadow.

 

 

Edit - On a side note, I said souls wait in Tel'aran'rhoid to be spun back out. I know that's true for Heroes of the Horn. I'm not sure about the Dragon's soul.

[FarShainMael]

Truly poetic justice!   ;)

 

Yes, can anyone advise on normal souls and T'A'R?

 

[Calderis]

Don't remember where the quote is, but I thought that only heroes souls were "bound to the wheel" and existed in TAR. There's a quote somewhere of RJ saying that for the majority of souls there is a regular afterlife.

[cgilbertmc]

The voice was never real, otherwise I would think it would have been much harder to get rid of LTT. Jordan was excellent in throwing in red herrings to make it seem like LTT was conversing with Rand or making observations on what was going on. The truth was that Rand had created a split personality based on leaked memories, the same way that Mat got. Lanfear and Artur refer to Rand as LTT because he WAS him in a past life. However he is currently Rand NOW. This is how reincarnation works, the old life is gone however the memories can be summoned up.

 

 

Mat's possession of memories is not due to his own memories by way of reincarnation. Several times he remembers being on both sides of the same battle (specifically the final battle of Manetherin et al). The memories of Rand/LTT are direct and attributable to his immediately previous incarnation. He does not seem to remember any lives before LTT which is curious.

 

 

In Taosim apparently it is possible to delve into past lives, this is what happened in the Avatar cartoon series. The Avatar could summon up his past lives but all they were was a collection of memories still in his head. He was still and always Ang. Same with Rand, he summoned up memories of LTT because he used to be LTT. Lanfear wanted to MAKE him LTT again.

 

 

Rand was incapable of reconciling his memories from LTT to his current life. Without understanding what it meant to be the Dragon Reborn, he accepted the title at the end of tEotW. His channeling with the taint broke down the barrier that is usually in place to prevent a previous life from overwhelming the current life. Without that barrier, a newborn would be born with a full personality and not have a chance to develop his own personality. The taint either weakened or totally destroyed the block. Since LTT's life came upon him in an unprepared state, Rand compartmentalized it into another "voice". This enabled him to retain his own personality (albeit one descending into madness).

 

 

[Arindrele]

Comanding a horse with his knees so was he a Hun in a past life. Hey did anyone notice that the seanchan have recurve bows? Does any other culture in the series have 'em? Well we see horse archers a la Hunnish horse archers. They were quite effective in battle. Sorry nothing to do with topic.

The voice in his head could well be himself but it does seem that Lews has a different personality (mannerisms might be better here) and memories, and aren't not what define us. So yes Lews and Rand are the same soul but they are not the same person so in my view the voice in his head isn't a coping mechanisim but the actual voice of Lews coming through on some weird transmiiter that crosses time and space, possible due to the taint. So to sum up Rand equals Lews and vice versa. The are they same soul but different peole due to their expierances,actions,memorries and so forth. In saying that Rand and Lews do share some comman traits observed by other characters. Hawkings mentions something about woman always being his downfall and doesn't Lanfear make comments that imply that they have simliarities.

Okay maybe the voice is just Rand but its Rand accessing memories from a past life so its not Rand but Lews. Am I making any sense. Rand and Lews are the one soul but diff blokes 'cause of different lives. ???

 

Actually, if you had every single memory of a person, and you were constructing a personality, I think you'd do a pretty good job of it, considering you just lived that person's life. Yes, it may not be dead-on, but it's got to be pretty darn close. You could argue that Lanfear recognized him-I did say that you'd get it pretty accurate, and Lanfear's psychotic-she sees what she wants to see.

[Paerish Swar]

Is there any evidence that the taint on Saidin corrupts more than just the body of the channeler, but rather taints the soul as well?

 

I ask this because after Lews Therin draws on too much of the One Power and kills himself, as a Hero bound to the Wheel he should have returned to Tel'aran'rhiod as a stark, raving, sane man.

 

For books, and books, and books we see Rand referring to the voice in his head as being totally insane, and it certainly does rant, rave, and babble a whole lot.

 

What I'm saying is that it should have been obvious to us that the voice in Rand's head wasn't real - that it was a coping mechanism.

 

Even if, in some weird way, there were two distinct and independent consciousnesses in Rand's head, there is no reason why the "Lews Therin consciousness" would be insane.  Such a situation would seem to require that there be some sort of weird temporal displacement/warp/wormhole that allowed Rand to access the mind of Lews Therin at the end of his actual life at the end of the previous Age.  And that, my friends, just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. (Sorry Owayn, but it just doesn't to me.  This isn't Donnie Darko, after all.)

 

I think Birgitte's situation kindof served as a "heads up" for what Rand was going through.  A normal reincarnation situation for a Hero bound to the Wheel creates the standard level of awareness - no past life memories (Hawking in tGH says something to this effect, as does Birgitte two books later) - , but in abnormal situations there can be uncomfortable variations.

 

I think the combination of the effects of the taint on Rand's mind, his extreme ta'veren nature, and perhaps even a circumstance of general upheaval in the pattern itself all conspired to give Rand access to memories he should not have had, and forced him to compartmentalize "the crazy" into a seperate pseudo-consciousness (for which Lews Therin was both a convenient and an understandable scape goat).

 

In short, there has never been anyone in Rand's head other than Rand.  The past-life memories he has access to are an unfortunate, though "natural," result of his unique situation.

 

 

 

Maybe ???