Fates worse than Death for Bad Girls (spoilers)

[Lord D]

Tuon says that the DW guard can do as they wish with Suroth, and the final scene is of Suroth having her clothes cut off.  If this was a Forsaken saying this to his/her elite DFs, would anyone be doubting the rape?  All we know about the Guard is that they're fanatically loyal to the Empress; there's no evidence to suggest they're any sort of boy scouts.

 

Having sex with a traitor would be seen as lowering eyes, but raping a traitor is entirely different; it's complete humiliation for the traitor, and a terrible punishment in itself.  Rape is about power, not sex.

 

Egeanin being embarrassed by having a sexual relationship with Domon revealed?  The key word is relationship.  Using da'covale for casual sex would not be forbidden, any more than it was in Roman times.  Having a caring relationship with one would be frowned upon.

 

There's actually less convincing evidence that Mesaana was raped by Shaidar Haran.  Just because SH raped Moggy doesn't mean he raped Mesaana.  Alviarin didn't see Mesaana get stripped or groped before she left.  It's probable that Mesaana was given some type of electric shock.

 

In these books, RJ has never referred to rape explicitly; what happens to Suroth is as near as he's ever come.  However, in his Conan Chronicles, rape does happen.

[Diederichos]

Except this wasn't a forsaken saying that, that was a Seanchan, most importantly that was Tuon saying that to a Deathwatch Guard. The clothes were being torn off because da'covale are not allowed to wear clothes of the nobility, or even of the common folk. Same reason why she's not being sold then and there, her hair has to grow long enough that it will be decent for her to be sold. Suroth does not exist anymore, the da'covale is not entitled to wear a noble's clothes.

 

It is underestimating the power of the Seekers to say that rape is the only way that Suroth can be brought low. Hell, knowing even that she is a da'covale, a lowly one at that, is enough of a start. What you have to consider is not only the complete lack of necessity in that act but also what it does to the person who commits it. I'm a DG, I'm the Empire's most honoured and best soldier, I am an elite among the elite. Why would I soil myself by sleeping with a traitor, someone who attempted directly against the DotNM's life, the same thing as being a darkfriend in their eyes?

 

But ultimately. The exact quote is 'this da'covale will serve the DG as they wish'. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that a DG wouldn't recoil at the thought of even touching a traitor. A Seeker I could potentially see as doing this, but not a DG, if nothing else they're too arrogant to lower themselves to that point. The DG would simply not want to touch her.

[lillcheese]

Suroth being raped as a consequence never crossed my mind in the several times I read that segment.  I took her clothes being cut off as similar to Aiel making gai'shain.  Suroth's terror about getting found out centered on being made property, with no hint that she might get raped.

 

On the other hand, I also totally missed Moggy & Messy getting raped.  Which is strange since I watch Law & Order: SVU all the time.

[Dreamwalker]

Suroth being raped as a consequence never crossed my mind in the several times I read that segment.  I took her clothes being cut off as similar to Aiel making gai'shain.  Suroth's terror about getting found out centered on being made property, with no hint that she might get raped.

 

On the other hand, I also totally missed Moggy & Messy getting raped.  Which is strange since I watch Law & Order: SVU all the time.

 

I agree - in WoT there is a ton of nudity and most of it has nothing to do with sex at all (being made gai'shain, bare-chested Amyrlin raising ceremony, sweat tents, AS Accepted test, Rhuidean, the baths in Shienar, being stripped and birched as punishment, first-sister ceremony, the list just keeps going...) So I don't see why Suroth's clothes being cut off automatically indicated rape to most people - I thought the stripping was more just part of humiliating her. I really doubt rape is something Tuon would approve of - the way her character has been developed she has a strong sense of what is and isn't decent (see her warning to Mat about being seen in the damane kennel) and the general impression I've gotten of Seanchan culture is very formal and actually quite prim when it comes to things like that (the sheer da'covale garments are more like having nude statues or paintings than something lurid).

 

I did suspect what happened to Moggy, but that's because Shaidar Haran is a Myrrdraal and it's been hinted that's something Myrrdraal often do to their unfortunate women captives. But unlike Myrrdraal, the Seanchan aren't really evil, just misguided on the subject of collaring women who can channel (as Rand started to see at the end of tGS).

[thewalrus777]

Yeah, Shaidar Haran is the Myrdraal of Myrdraals. You have to magnify the tendecies of what Myrdraal's actually do by like 50 to get how bad Haran is. And on top of that he's got other powers as well, such as the power being void around him. Moggy and Mesi getting raped by Haran almost certainly happened seeing as they were defenseless to it.

[Eht Slat Meit]

I'm not sure I would consider the men as having gotten off the hook comparatively. I mean, let's see

 

Asmodean - Cut off from the Source, enslaved by the DR, finally killed painfully by <> and sent on to the tender mercies of the DO

Sammael - Eaten by Mashadar, which is considered to be pretty nasty.

Rahvin - Burned alive by Nynaeve just before being balefired by Rand.

Osan'gar - Screwed over by the stasis, rots to death thanks to the Nym, then gets his second chance smoked by a low-ranking BA

Aran'gar - Burned alive, reborn a woman, which he had a serious problem with at one point.

Ishamael - I'd argue that being frickin nuts is a fate worse than death, but he seems pretty happy with it. Maybe getting stabbed to death fixed things for him.

[Dakota]

 

I agree - in WoT there is a ton of nudity and most of it has nothing to do with sex at all (being made gai'shain, bare-chested Amyrlin raising ceremony, sweat tents, AS Accepted test, Rhuidean, the baths in Shienar, being stripped and birched as punishment, first-sister ceremony, the list just keeps going...) So I don't see why Suroth's clothes being cut off automatically indicated rape to most people - I thought the stripping was more just part of humiliating her. I really doubt rape is something Tuon would approve of - the way her character has been developed she has a strong sense of what is and isn't decent (see her warning to Mat about being seen in the damane kennel) and the general impression I've gotten of Seanchan culture is very formal and actually quite prim when it comes to things like that (the sheer da'covale garments are more like having nude statues or paintings than something lurid).

 

Tuon could have just had Suroth locked in a cell or some other out-of-the-way and humiliating place for the time it took her hair to grow back.  Instead she gave her to her batch of soldiers who quite possibly haven't gotten any in a while and have some aggression to take out on a woman who sent them on a wild-goose chase and tried to have their Empress killed.  Yes, the stripping was part of making her da'covale, but being raped afterwards by a group of soldiers would I think be the most painful and humiliating way to drive home how far she fell, and I think Tuon might have known it.

 

As for her warning about Mat being seen in the damane kennel.  It seems that the Seanchan see damanes like pets and da'covale as property.  There are any number of anecdotes and stories from American pre-Civil war history about some slave owner caring more for the well-being of his favorite horse than any number of the dozens of slaves he kept.  Tuon might very well care more for the well-being of some girls who were born with a terrible, horrifying condition and need to be taken care of so they don't hurt themselves and others, than she would for a piece of property, especially one that had tried to kill her.

 

Of course, we'll never know for sure unless we get s PoV or something from Suroth before the end of the series.

[thewalrus777]

I'm not sure I would consider the men as having gotten off the hook comparatively. I mean, let's see

 

Asmodean - Cut off from the Source, enslaved by the DR, finally killed painfully by <> and sent on to the tender mercies of the DO

Sammael - Eaten by Mashadar, which is considered to be pretty nasty.

Rahvin - Burned alive by Nynaeve just before being balefired by Rand.

Osan'gar - Screwed over by the stasis, rots to death thanks to the Nym, then gets his second chance smoked by a low-ranking BA

Aran'gar - Burned alive, reborn a woman, which he had a serious problem with at one point.

Ishamael - I'd argue that being frickin nuts is a fate worse than death, but he seems pretty happy with it. Maybe getting stabbed to death fixed things for him.

 

Awesome point. The male Forsaken have bitten the dust in terrible ways as well. Man, the male Forsaken truly recieved some beat downs in the series. Sammael can't even be reborn due to the nature of his death by Mashadar. He wasn't even BF'd.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Awesome point. The male Forsaken have bitten the dust in terrible ways as well. Man, the male Forsaken truly recieved some beat downs in the series. Sammael can't even be reborn due to the nature of his death by Mashadar. He wasn't even BF'd.

 

On a strangely related note, does Asmodean have any idea who Padan Fain is?

[thewalrus777]

Awesome point. The male Forsaken have bitten the dust in terrible ways as well. Man, the male Forsaken truly recieved some beat downs in the series. Sammael can't even be reborn due to the nature of his death by Mashadar. He wasn't even BF'd.

 

On a strangely related note, does Asmodean have any idea who Padan Fain is?

 

I would assume all of the Forsaken know who the hell that trouble maker is. We're talking about a DF who was taken to SG, a place that really only the Forsaken have been to. Not to mention the DO has Slayer after Fain as well. And we all know that the Forsaken are always aware of the DO's plans. I imagine the Forsaken have standing orders to kill Fain on sight. The DO sees him as an immense danger.

[Eht Slat Meit]

I would assume all of the Forsaken know who the hell that trouble maker is. We're talking about a DF who was taken to SG, a place that really only the Forsaken have been to. Not to mention the DO has Slayer after Fain as well. And we all know that the Forsaken are always aware of the DO's plans. I imagine the Forsaken have standing orders to kill Fain on sight. The DO sees him as an immense danger.

 

I should clarify that question: As of the time of Asmodean's death, did the Forsaken have any idea who Padan Fain was?

 

I asked, because for some stupid reason I was mixing up Asmodean and Rahvin, thinking that Asmodean could not be resurrected.

[thewalrus777]

I would assume all of the Forsaken know who the hell that trouble maker is. We're talking about a DF who was taken to SG, a place that really only the Forsaken have been to. Not to mention the DO has Slayer after Fain as well. And we all know that the Forsaken are always aware of the DO's plans. I imagine the Forsaken have standing orders to kill Fain on sight. The DO sees him as an immense danger.

 

I should clarify that question: As of the time of Asmodean's death, did the Forsaken have any idea who Padan Fain was?

 

I asked, because for some stupid reason I was mixing up Asmodean and Rahvin, thinking that Asmodean could not be resurrected.

 

Well Fain went rogue well before Asmodean bit the big one. So I would imagine he knew who Fain was.

[Lord D]

Obviously, Asmo knew about Fain, though that discussion seems a bit off-topic to me.

 

About Suroth, by her actions she's a traitor, and thus forfeits all rights to be treated humanely by those she betrayed.  You can see how this works in medieval societies, where the most ghastly punishments were reserved for traitors.  As far as Tuon is concerned, Suroth's guilt is proven, so there's no need for the Seekers to be called in.  As to the DW Guard, it's actually easier to justify doing something unpleasant to someone you regard as less than human.  Remember, rape is about power, not sex.

 

All other scenes where nudity is non-sexual have been clearly described.  If Suroth wasn't going to be raped, why isn't there another paragraph describing what the DW Guard would actually do to her?  The only reason to stop at the stripping scene is because explicit rape has no place in a WoT book.

[Durinax]

Personnally I think Asmo got/ is getting a terrible fate, personnally I believe someone ported in, shielded him, took him to shayol ghul where his treachery could be fully punished

[OptimusPrime]

They could be reincarnated in a body that cant channel maybe? Or reincarnated as a Fade or Trolloc

[Casabamelon]

Personnally I think Asmo got/ is getting a terrible fate, personnally I believe someone ported in, shielded him, took him to shayol ghul where his treachery could be fully punished

 

In the words of RJ, Asmodean is "roadkill".

[Durinax]

ah ok, so he got hit by the train thing :P jk

[thewalrus777]

They could be reincarnated in a body that cant channel maybe? Or reincarnated as a Fade or Trolloc

 

It's not the body that has the ability to channel, it's the soul. That's why Osan'gar/Balthamel can still channel Saidin even though his soul is in a woman's body. And if he were to be reincarnated as a Trolloc or Fade, then you'd have a shadowspawn that could channel, and that seems to me, impossible. RJ has stated that Asmodean is D-E-D, ded! Never to be heard from again.

[Diederichos]

Of course there's a need for the Seekers to be called, establishing guilt is the first thing to do, after that there's finding out the full extent of what she did. How else do you think that they found out that she had met with a Forsaken as Tuon mentions, or thinks rather, or the many other details that they ferreted out of her such as that she wasn't involved in the death of Beslan's mother.

 

It's not a question of Suroth being treated humanely, it's a question of not lowering yourself. First of all, humiliation is inconsequential as far as the Seanchan are concerned, she'd da'covale, that's plenty humiliating and mind breaking enough. As for extracting information, there are more effective methods. What you're saying is that Tuon and all of the DG is on the same level as Eamon Valda and that is a farfetched claim. Tuon is powerful enough, why would she spend a thought in digging the knife in, it's already as deep as it is going to be and her power is secured, as far as that goes. So, what exactly is to be gained by this, nothing that is.

 

And assuming that removing her noble clothing is a prelude to rape is logically followed by the rape being committed then and there. Again, a bit of a ridiculous stretch.

 

From Eamon Valda or the Questioners I can accept this, from Tuon and the DG? Really?

[thewalrus777]

Of course there's a need for the Seekers to be called, establishing guilt is the first thing to do, after that there's finding out the full extent of what she did. How else do you think that they found out that she had met with a Forsaken as Tuon mentions, or thinks rather, or the many other details that they ferreted out of her such as that she wasn't involved in the death of Beslan's mother.

 

It's not a question of Suroth being treated humanely, it's a question of not lowering yourself. First of all, humiliation is inconsequential as far as the Seanchan are concerned, she'd da'covale, that's plenty humiliating and mind breaking enough. As for extracting information, there are more effective methods. What you're saying is that Tuon and all of the DG is on the same level as Eamon Valda and that is a farfetched claim. Tuon is powerful enough, why would she spend a thought in digging the knife in, it's already as deep as it is going to be and her power is secured, as far as that goes. So, what exactly is to be gained by this, nothing that is.

 

And assuming that removing her noble clothing is a prelude to rape is logically followed by the rape being committed then and there. Again, a bit of a ridiculous stretch.

 

From Eamon Valda or the Questioners I can accept this, from Tuon and the DG? Really?

 

I very much agreewith you. The Whitecloaks are described by Moiraine as being as close to evil without actually being evil. They are a very nasty lot of folk. And they have a very nasty rep in regards to the treatment of women. The Seanchan however have a VERY strong sense of honor, almost Aiel like. I could see the DG actually torturing Suroth for info, but never raping her. That lower themselves to that of an animal, and they would not do that. Especially them being the elite of the elite in the Seanchan army. They, IMO, are supposed to be role models within the Seanchan army. They are what regular army folk are to aspire to be.

[Lord D]

Of course there's a need for the Seekers to be called, establishing guilt is the first thing to do, after that there's finding out the full extent of what she did. How else do you think that they found out that she had met with a Forsaken as Tuon mentions, or thinks rather, or the many other details that they ferreted out of her such as that she wasn't involved in the death of Beslan's mother.

 

But Tuon doesn't call the Seekers in this scene.

 

It's not a question of Suroth being treated humanely, it's a question of not lowering yourself. First of all, humiliation is inconsequential as far as the Seanchan are concerned, she'd da'covale, that's plenty humiliating and mind breaking enough. As for extracting information, there are more effective methods. What you're saying is that Tuon and all of the DG is on the same level as Eamon Valda and that is a farfetched claim. Tuon is powerful enough, why would she spend a thought in digging the knife in, it's already as deep as it is going to be and her power is secured, as far as that goes. So, what exactly is to be gained by this, nothing that is.

 

REVENGE on a TRAITOR!!!

 

And assuming that removing her noble clothing is a prelude to rape is logically followed by the rape being committed then and there. Again, a bit of a ridiculous stretch.

 

DW Guard drag Suroth straight to their barracks, and the rape starts as soon as they're there.

 

From Eamon Valda or the Questioners I can accept this, from Tuon and the DG? Really?

Sure!!!

 

The Seanchan however have a VERY strong sense of honor, almost Aiel like. I could see the DG actually torturing Suroth for info, but never raping her. That lower themselves to that of an animal, and they would not do that. Especially them being the elite of the elite in the Seanchan army. They, IMO, are supposed to be role models within the Seanchan army. They are what regular army folk are to aspire to be.

 

The DW Guard is supposed to be fanatically devoted to the Empress and the best fighters, not boy scouts.  Their fighting prowess makes them the elite, not their morals.  Fanatics in our age are certainly capable of raping infidels.

[Charlz Fel]

I think Carridin's fate also deserves mention.  He had to learn of his entire family dying one by one, lived in near constant terror of being next for probably at least a year, was kept tied hand-and-foot in a basement for some period of time by a woman whom he had previously commanded, and then drowned by having a barrel of brandy poured into him.  That all sounds rather unpleasant.

 

However, on the whole, I think you are right that the evil women tend to experience terrible, protracted fates much more frequently than the evil men.

[lillcheese]

All other scenes where nudity is non-sexual have been clearly described.  If Suroth wasn't going to be raped, why isn't there another paragraph describing what the DW Guard would actually do to her?  The only reason to stop at the stripping scene is because explicit rape has no place in a WoT book.

 

Or because these books are long enough already without delving into the punishment of a relatively minor character.  Unless crazy things happen to change Suroth's circumstances, she's been stripped of all power and has no more relevance to future events.

[thewalrus777]

All other scenes where nudity is non-sexual have been clearly described.  If Suroth wasn't going to be raped, why isn't there another paragraph describing what the DW Guard would actually do to her?  The only reason to stop at the stripping scene is because explicit rape has no place in a WoT book.

 

Or because these books are long enough already without delving into the punishment of a relatively minor character.  Unless crazy things happen to change Suroth's circumstances, she's been stripped of all power and has no more relevance to future events.

 

Thank you. Finally some one sees it for what it is. Suroth is now inconsequential.

[Diederichos]

Revenge has already been exacted. If she wanted blunt revenge, she'd have executed her like that. Now, Suroth has to suffer a life as a da'covale, sorta like what was done to Colavaere, the fact that she lives in a much lowered station is revenge enough. Tuon's revenge is much more terrible and lasting than anything else that could have been done, she got her pound of flesh already so to speak.

 

Ultimately, here are the facts. Tuon and the DG would never do that, that's a fact that's been made clear by their behaviour and their beliefs we know of. There is not a single shred of proof to support your conclusion, it is also a fact, not even a castaway thought in the mentions of Suroth made in tGS. It's just pure conjuncture based on nothing.