Confused about potential with One Power ??

[Caedda_Sedai]

Slightly confused, can anyone help? All through the first books, we're told repeatedly that Nynaeve, Egwene and Elayne have the potential to be the most powerful Aes Sedai ever known, and that their strength in the One Power is unmatched etc.  We also keep hearing that Nynaeve is the most powerful Healer ever seen etc etc...

 

But I'm confused, because in later books, people who are bursting at the seams with ability pop up (Sharina, Alivia) and once or twice it's mentioned that they are far more powerful than N, E & E - and yet, we are also still told at the same time, that N, E & E will be the most powerful who ever lived, despite people having more ability than them.  Likewise, Sumeko's skill at healing FAR surpasses N's, and yet we are still told that N is the best.

 

Is it just inconsistency in the books or am I completely misunderstading things?

[Nightstrike]

Brandon Sanderson said there are only 6 women stronger than Nynaeve on the new strength list. That's very rare. AoL had more than 100 000 female channelers. Today, on all continents, they have much less than that. BWB says the population size has been declining for a long period (up until "today of the books"). Noone knows why. Noone had been stronger than Cadsuane for a thousand years, but they were not a lot of Aes Sedai. Unlike AoL.

 

TOR Questions of the Week, December 2003 to April 2004

... operates under a constraint that did not exist in the Age of Legends. At that time, about 3% of the population could learn to channel to some extent, though not all chose to -- the training program took time, and being able to channel carried with it certain obligations that not everyone wanted to undertake -- but that still meant there were, at a minimum, hundreds of thousands of people in the world who could channel, and more likely millions. A large pool of possible recruits. Break a tool or decide it isn't working right and throw it out, because there is an endless supply of similar tools waiting on the shelf. That might be said to have been his attitude. In the here-and-now of the books, that figure is about 1%, and of that 1%, very, very few have any idea that they could learn to channel, much less have any training at all. Here-and-now, the pool of possible recruits is tiny.

 

 

 

[Luckers]

Slightly confused, can anyone help? All through the first books, we're told repeatedly that Nynaeve, Egwene and Elayne have the potential to be the most powerful Aes Sedai ever known, and that their strength in the One Power is unmatched etc.  We also keep hearing that Nynaeve is the most powerful Healer ever seen etc etc...

 

But I'm confused, because in later books, people who are bursting at the seams with ability pop up (Sharina, Alivia) and once or twice it's mentioned that they are far more powerful than N, E & E - and yet, we are also still told at the same time, that N, E & E will be the most powerful who ever lived, despite people having more ability than them.  Likewise, Sumeko's skill at healing FAR surpasses N's, and yet we are still told that N is the best.

 

Is it just inconsistency in the books or am I completely misunderstading things?

 

Firstly, it is stated that they are going to be the most powerful Aes Sedai in over a thousand years, not ever. Secondly, you must keep in mind that the modern Aes Sedai, due to their practice of waiting on girls to approach them (in effect, waiting on teenage girls to risk a highly dangerous world to approach them, when they themselves have a highly negative reputation) are vastly understrength.

 

So, there are only around 1,000 Aes Sedai--yet 1% of the population can channel in modern times (note it was 3% in the Age of Legends, all of which were identifief, and mostly trained, and with a much larger population base than modern times, essentially meaning to my mind that there were millions of channelers). In any case, this that even with population declines modern Aes Sedai represent less than a percent of the potential channelers in the Westland (presuming there are at least 10 million women in Randland, and I suspect more).

 

Meanwhile the Seanchan, the Aiel, and the Windfinders are all far more precocious about finding channelers, which results in them having found more stronger channelers. And what do we notice when the Aes Sedai start pro-actively searching for channelers in LoC? They find more powerful channelers.

 

This is internally consistant with Aes Sedai recruitment methods and the subsequent effects those had on the Aes Sedai numbers and disposition, and thus on the Aes Sedai perception of Egwene, Nynaeve and Elayne's strength.

[Caedda_Sedai]

Both those make sense, thank you :)  Like I said, I wasn't sure if I was just misunderstanding what I had read and you are quite correct, I'd forgotten the "thousand years" bit. 

 

I have only read the series once all the way through, so I suspect there are lots of subtle things that I have not picked up on properly.

[Nightstrike]

Firstly, it is stated that they are going to be the most powerful Aes Sedai in over a thousand years, not ever. Secondly, you must keep in mind that the modern Aes Sedai, due to their practice of waiting on girls to approach them (in effect, waiting on teenage girls to risk a highly dangerous world to approach them, when they themselves have a highly negative reputation) are vastly understrength.

What makes you so sure they never approach any girls who can learn?

 

TFoH:

When Aes Sedai found someone with the spark born in her like Elayne or Egwene, someone, who would channel eventually whether she wanted to or not, they were quite open about bundling her into training whatever her wishes. They seemed more lenient about those who could be trained but would never touch saidar without it and about wilders, those who had survived the one in four chance of teaching themselves, usually without knowing what they had done and often blocked in some way, as Nynaeve was. Supposedly they could choose to come or stay. Nynaeve had chosen to enter the Tower.

Seems like they test women who haven't been too eager to volunteer. Wondergirls didn't know how Sheriam's testing procedure had gone when they thought that. After the text I quoted, they asked how testing had gone. The answer was three new ones - one of them a wilder.

 

 

[Luckers]

Quote from: Luckers on Today at 11:18:01 AM

Firstly, it is stated that they are going to be the most powerful Aes Sedai in over a thousand years, not ever. Secondly, you must keep in mind that the modern Aes Sedai, due to their practice of waiting on girls to approach them (in effect, waiting on teenage girls to risk a highly dangerous world to approach them, when they themselves have a highly negative reputation) are vastly understrength.

 

 

What makes you so sure they never approach any girls who can learn?

 

They state it. Frequently. They do not actively recruit--or at least they didn't until part way during tFoH, but that was a derivation from thousands of years of custom against the idea. Oh, if a Learner asked for testing then decided she didn't want to an Aes Sedai might exert herself, but they never approach girls to offer testing until tFoH.

 

TFoH:

 

Quote

When Aes Sedai found someone with the spark born in her like Elayne or Egwene, someone, who would channel eventually whether she wanted to or not, they were quite open about bundling her into training whatever her wishes. They seemed more lenient about those who could be trained but would never touch saidar without it and about wilders, those who had survived the one in four chance of teaching themselves, usually without knowing what they had done and often blocked in some way, as Nynaeve was. Supposedly they could choose to come or stay. Nynaeve had chosen to enter the Tower.

 

 

 

Seems like they test women who haven't been too eager to volunteer. Wondergirls didn't know how Sheriam's testing procedure had gone when they thought that. After the text I quoted, they asked how testing had gone. The answer was three new ones - one of them a wilder.

 

That was in Salidar, after they changed the policy and started sending Aes Sedai out along with the army recruitment party.

[Nightstrike]

They state it. Frequently. They do not actively recruit--or at least they didn't until part way during tFoH, but that was a derivation from thousands of years of custom against the idea. Oh, if a Learner asked for testing then decided she didn't want to an Aes Sedai might exert herself, but they never approach girls to offer testing until tFoH.

I can't recall that they've stated that they never approached any girls who could learn. Could you give me a quote?

 

Seems like they test women who haven't been too eager to volunteer. Wondergirls didn't know how Sheriam's testing procedure had gone when they thought that. After the text I quoted, they asked how testing had gone. The answer was three new ones - one of them a wilder.

That was in Salidar, after they changed the policy and started sending Aes Sedai out along with the army recruitment party.

It doesn't matter, because of what I said (the part I just marked in bold).

 

 

The way strong channelers were valued by Aes Sedai means that they "pick and choose" among the recruits. Egwene gave prestige to the Blue, and Elayne gave prestige to the Red, for instance.

 

 

[Luckers]

Quote from: Luckers on January 17, 2010, 01:59:19 PM

They state it. Frequently. They do not actively recruit--or at least they didn't until part way during tFoH, but that was a derivation from thousands of years of custom against the idea. Oh, if a Learner asked for testing then decided she didn't want to an Aes Sedai might exert herself, but they never approach girls to offer testing until tFoH.

 

I can't recall that they've stated that they never approached any girls who could learn. Could you give me a quote?

 

Never? Ok, yeah, sure, it's probably happened once or twice--but incredibly infrequently. For one thing consider--one percent of the population can channel. If they made any sort of even remote attempt to recruit their numbers would be conciderably higher. Concider there are 500,000 people in Tar Valon alone--lets say half are women, one percent of which can channel and 63.8% of which have the strength to attain the shawl. Which means there are 1595 potential Aes Sedai in Tar Valon alone. You'd think if they did make any attempt the strongest would be in their own back yard. Yet we have to date not met a single sister from Tar Valon. Not one.

 

Recruitment is against custom. They feel it leaves them with novices unfit for the trials of an Aes Sedai life. But you asked me for quotes. Fine. Here.

 

Egwene had made a point of fixing name to face for every novice, no easy chore given how sisters hunted all along the army's path for girls and young women who could learn. Active search was still not well thought of—custom was to wait for the girl to ask, best of all to wait for her to come to the Tower

 

[aCoS: 9, A Pair of Silverpike]

 

This of course being after they changed the policy in Salidar.

 

And from the Guide.

 

Few Aes Sedai recruit, normally, although when they do discover a girl who can learn to channel, they let nothing stand in the way of enrolling her as a novice in the Tower. (Historically most novices have been sixteen or younger when first enrolled, and the Tower usually has refused to accept any novice over the age of eighteen as too old to adapt to the discipline.) Rather than scouring the countryside, the preferred method is to allow the girl to come to an Aes Sedai and ask, and better yet, for her to come to the Tower itself.

 

There are more, but I'll leave you to find them. The end point is that the recruitment was against custom. The Aes Sedai believed that having girls seek them out was better. One part hubris and one part based in the idea that those with determination would better stand up to the trials and requirements of Aes Sedai life.

 

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Seems like they test women who haven't been too eager to volunteer. Wondergirls didn't know how Sheriam's testing procedure had gone when they thought that. After the text I quoted, they asked how testing had gone. The answer was three new ones - one of them a wilder.

 

That was in Salidar, after they changed the policy and started sending Aes Sedai out along with the army recruitment party.

 

 

 

It doesn't matter, because of what I said (the part I just marked in bold).

 

Why does the part you marked in bold have anything to do with it? In Salidar they actively chose to go against the policy of not actively recruiting. Therefore a quote that they were actively recruiting doesn't change anything.

 

Aes Sedai did not actively recruit until tFoH. They didn't even casually recruit. They reguarded recruitment itself as detrimental to the potential of a novice.

 

 

[Nightstrike]

Never? Oh I'm sure its happened once or twice

More than twice, I believe.

 

Few Aes Sedai recruit, normally, although when they do discover a girl who can learn to channel, they let nothing stand in the way of enrolling her as a novice in the Tower.

Few are still some. They take pride in bringing in the strong ones.

 

Why does the part you marked in bold have anything to do with it? In Salidar they actively chose to go against the policy of not actively recruiting. Therefore a quote that they were actively recruiting doesn't change anything.

But the wondergirls didn't know about it then. They didn't know about it when they thought the thing I quoted. So it is custom from before things changed. After the quote I posted, they learned that 3 new novices had just been enrolled - one of them was a wilder.

 

Aes Sedai did not actively recruit until tFoH. They didn't even casually recruit. They reguarded recruitment itself as detrimental to the potential of a novice.

I think they "casually recruited". About the new novices:..."...most by far would never wear the shawl...". Instead of the expected 62.5 percent wearing the shawl. So they must have have been picking and choosing among the recruits. Add that to the quote I gave before (in this thread).

 

 

[Taura-Tierno]

I think what they mean with recruiting is what's being done now, when Sisters go around testing people, travelling from village to village and getting people to line up. As in, the White Tower recruiting. Is a Sister wants to test someone, for some reason, without having been asked, I assume that's not something she mentions, and instead makes it seem that she found the novice, which, in truth, she did, but in a way that goes against custom. But that's an individual recruiting novices - not the Tower.

 

There aren't Aes Sedai doing tours of villages and cities testing people every year or even every decade. That would have been the Tower actively approaching girls. A few Aes Sedai who approaches a random girl here or a couple of girls there is just a Sister doing some discreet approaching. I'd think that any Aes Sedai who openly tries to recruit as many novices as possible would suffer some serious reprimands. Breaking custom is bad.

[Luckers]

Quote from: Luckers on Today at 05:25:47 AM

Never? Oh I'm sure its happened once or twice

 

More than twice, I believe.

 

In the history of the Tower? Sure. In the past few hundred years? Honestly, yes, I doubt that its more than twice. Aes Sedai are strong willed, well educated, intelligent women--except when it comes to the issue of 'being Aes Sedai'. Their sense of self is derived in the self-important image of what it is to be Aes Sedai--its the basis of their disdain for wilders, the reason they never question the strength hierarchy, the reason so many have problems with women above age becoming novices--it is, in effect, their blinding prejudice.

 

To lower oneself to actively recruit would be to admit that being Aes Sedai is not the be all and end all of existence. Due to their training they could not do that. Not until events became so percipetous they were forced to, and even then they resisted. Strongly.

 

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Few Aes Sedai recruit, normally, although when they do discover a girl who can learn to channel, they let nothing stand in the way of enrolling her as a novice in the Tower.

 

Few are still some. They take pride in bringing in the strong ones.

 

That they take pride in finding potentially strong women does not mean they search for them. Elayne was Daughter Heir and thus destined to go to the Tower no matter her potential, and Moiraine made no active effort to bring along either Egwene or Nynaeve--oh, once they presented themselves she pushed them in the right direction--but they presented themselves, both.

 

And 'few are still some'? Who cares? The Aes Sedai as a group look down on active recruitment, and reguard it as against custom--which in most part they hold to as strong as law. That a handful of aberrant individuals occaisionally go against this hardly makes a difference in the long term scheme of things--I mean what would they find in casually testing girls in the acceptable age group? Three or four in a lifetime?

 

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Why does the part you marked in bold have anything to do with it? In Salidar they actively chose to go against the policy of not actively recruiting. Therefore a quote that they were actively recruiting doesn't change anything.

 

 

But the wondergirls didn't know about it then. They didn't know about it when they thought the thing I quoted. So it is custom from before things changed. After the quote I posted, they learned that 3 new novices had just been enrolled - one of them was a wilder.

 

What? You need to explain that a deal more clearly. What is it the Wondergirls did not know? The results of Sheriams new testing methods? Those methods were a change in policy--they came about after the change. And what is a custom from before things changed? The custom before things changed was not to recruit. The change was to recruit. The Wondergirls lack of knowledge about what this change had found (the three new novices) affects nothing.

 

I've no idea what you're getting at here.

 

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Aes Sedai did not actively recruit until tFoH. They didn't even casually recruit. They reguarded recruitment itself as detrimental to the potential of a novice.

 

 

I think they "casually recruited". About the new novices:..."...most by far would never wear the shawl...". Instead of the expected 62.5 percent wearing the shawl. So they must have have been picking and choosing among the recruits.

 

Ok. Most 'by far' would never where the shawl. There are around a thousand new novices. What is 'most by far'? 700 of them? 800?

 

Let's say 700. To be kind. Now if that represents 36.2% of the potential channelers that region should have spat out, that means that there should have been a further 1233 channelers who should be of Aes Sedai strength. Cut the 300 recently recruited, and that leaves 933 women.

 

933 women which, by your claim, arn't present because of the casual recruitment of the 'few Aes Sedai' willing to do so. So where are they? Amongst the Aes Sedai? Amongst the Kin? That would be 90% of the Tower. Near 1/4 of all the women who've tested positive for the ability within the Tower in the last 600 years, removed from the current generation of Murandians by casual testing from a few Aes Sedai--only to disapear utterly.

 

And thats from Murandy. What of the other nations? If this 'casual recruitment' could so drastically affect the dispertion of channelers in Murandy why have they not been doing so in other nations? Indeed one would think Aes Sedai would have more success in doing this in Aes Sedai friendly areas. The Borderlands. Andor. Tar Valon--of which I've already made a point about recruitment.

 

I believe I made this point to you last time, but 'most would never gain the shawl' has to refer to the other standards Aes Sedai require in their novices. The math leaves no room for manouvering on that.

 

I'm sorry nightstrike. A couple of Aes Sedai occaisionally willing to lower themselves to testing girls is still just a couple of Aes Sedai. They by custom do not do so, and they cling to that custom fiercely. Even now its been changed most still resist.

[Nightstrike]

But the wondergirls didn't know about it then. They didn't know about it when they thought the thing I quoted. So it is custom from before things changed. After the quote I posted, they learned that 3 new novices had just been enrolled - one of them was a wilder.

What? You need to explain that a deal more clearly. What is it the Wondergirls did not know? The results of Sheriams new testing methods? Those methods were a change in policy--they came about after the change. And what is a custom from before things changed? The custom before things changed was not to recruit. The change was to recruit. The Wondergirls lack of knowledge about what this change had found (the three new novices) affects nothing.

 

I've no idea what you're getting at here.

They didn't know anything about any change whatsoever. The only change so far was 3 new novices (one was a wilder). Wondergirls didn't even know that much. So their thoughts were 100 percent about how it had been before any of the changes.

When Aes Sedai found someone with the spark born in her like Elayne or Egwene, someone, who would channel eventually whether she wanted to or not, they were quite open about bundling her into training whatever her wishes. They seemed more lenient about those who could be trained but would never touch saidar without it and about wilders, those who had survived the one in four chance of teaching themselves, usually without knowing what they had done and often blocked in some way, as Nynaeve was. Supposedly they could choose to come or stay. Nynaeve had chosen to enter the Tower.

 

 

Quote

Aes Sedai did not actively recruit until tFoH. They didn't even casually recruit. They reguarded recruitment itself as detrimental to the potential of a novice.

 

 

I think they "casually recruited". About the new novices:..."...most by far would never wear the shawl...". Instead of the expected 62.5 percent wearing the shawl. So they must have have been picking and choosing among the recruits.

 

Ok. Most 'by far' would never where the shawl. There are around a thousand new novices. What is 'most by far'? 700 of them? 800?

I don't know exactly how many. Let's pretend it was 72.5 percent of them. Which would leave 35 units of percentage between the "observed" and the "expected". Those older than 65 years might not want to swear on the oath rod, since it shortens their life so much.

 

 

[Luckers]

They didn't know anything about any change whatsoever. The only change so far was 3 new novices (one was a wilder). Wondergirls didn't even know that much. So their thoughts were 100 percent about how it had been before any of the changes.

 

Yeah, still not seeing what you think is significant there. Even presuming that Elayne and Nynaeve were for some peculiar reason ignorent of the custom against recruiting--which I doubt given Egwene was aware of it--so what? How is their ignorence in any way relevant?

 

We know Aes Sedai do not actively recruit, that they reguard it as against custom. We know that the few abberrant individuals who do occaisionally break this custom have a negligeable effect on the number of strong channelers in Murandy, and therefore we know Egwene to be either flat our wrong, or speaking of requirements other than strength.

 

What more is there to discuss?

 

 

[Nightstrike]

Yeah, still not seeing what you think is significant there. Even presuming that Elayne and Nynaeve were for some peculiar reason ignorent of the custom against recruiting--which I doubt given Egwene was aware of it--so what? How is their ignorence in any way relevant?

I've not said that they were ignorant of any previous custom. Quite the contrary, actually. I think they were aware of customs up to (just before) that point. It's relevant because they said some were "allowed" to refuse (=the weaker learners), but not others.

 

We know Aes Sedai do not actively recruit, that they reguard it as against custom.

I agree, that's their custom. But that's not all there is to say about it.

 

What more is there to discuss?

I don't know.  :-\  We disagree... To some extent, at least.  :)